Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

[cashogy_reborn]

Oh noes...did I break the thread?

 

dafq did you bump it for................

[DarthRaika]

haha, I check the forums a few times a week and this was almost always on the front page. This thread is like my *** imprint on my couch. It just doesn't feel right without it . Edited November 3, 2013 by DarthRaika

[cashogy_reborn]

haha, I check the forums a few times a week and this was almost always on the front page. This thread is like my *** imprint on my couch. It just doesn't feel right without it .

 

It feels plenty right without it. Flip the cushion over and cover up that buttprint

[Arunas]

This is, imo, why a game with such potential has bled so many pvprs. Many of the good well adjusted premaders became bored and the mediocre or less skilled puggers got fed up and quit.

Lack of cross-sever is root of all swtor pvp woes. Without it match-making is not possible (look how great arenas are doing limited with one server population...). Game lost biggest amount of pvpers when 8v8 rwz was delayed and launched with no cross-server. Now what happens is that in team based pvp there are two sides - people to play with and people to play against. The first one exists, people group up with friends and play together but there is no way to get an opposition of equal skill.

[maverickmatt]

When will this thread die? ..

[vennian]

When will this thread die? ..

 

When the issue is solved. So likely, never

[SomeJagoff]

When the issue is solved. So likely, never

 

I think Bioware tried to resolve this issue by giving the multitude of 4man premades a place to queue against each other exclusively, but, surprise surprise, most dont want to and would prefer to pugstomp regs.

 

The excuse for many larger pvp guilds for not doing ranked was the difficulty in getting 8 people together regularly to pvp for hours. Now that ranked only requires 4...it's too hard to get 4 together?

 

So I guess Bioware should probably implement 3v3 and 2v2, or if they really want to fix this issue and kill this thread once and for all, just implement 1v1.

 

If people want to be anti-social and not ever group with anyone or work with anyone or get facerolled by double premades over and over, then the 1v1 queue would be for them. No premades, no teammates to blame for losses (lol no one to rage at), just purely the skill/luck/whatever of the individual.

 

And if it's ratings that people are afraid of tarnishing (which most seem to be), make the 1v1 queue unranked.

 

Of course, the only real problem with this would be bioware would actually have to balance every class against each other, which will also likely never happen.

[vennian]

I think Bioware tried ..

 

No they didn't try. If they had they would have realized that premades would still go to regs. If they truly wanted premades out of regs they would need to set a hard limit. They haven't, so premades in regs are "working as intended".

 

Which is a shame because premades in regs makes for boring warzones and quitters.

Edited November 3, 2013 by vennian

[Zunayson]

The problem with your question is, it implies that people are complaining, because they don't win enough games.

But that's not the case, people are complaining that they don't have fun, if they get farmed all the time by well organized TS pre-mades.

I don't think, that the state of the game is bad enough to ruin PVP, but I had several games too, where I questioned the other sides motivation to play non-ranked warzones.

 

BW should open ranked for daily and weekly PVP-Quests and bring back 8 vs. 8 ranked warzone. If they put it in the same queue than 4 vs. 4, nobody should be harmed.

 

Edit: I'm not a pre-made hater.

 

They're mad that they lost, and then they rationalize their bad with the excuse of premades. There is no way in the world that each and every premade is a fotm stacking coordinated rated team. It's more likely that these baddies have a selective memory about which games they lose.

[Zorion]

no, i read them. they are irrationally blaming premades, and acting like the premades are cheating and can never lose, the same way they have for the past several hundred pages. You got a solo-only queue and still complain, further validating what i said.

 

but you miss the "core issue"

 

We didnt ask for a soloque option that forces us to do ranked.

We want a solo-option for non-ranked to keep things casual.

 

This is more the real issue casual gamers vs "hardcore gamers"

 

I cant speak for other servers but my Ebon Hawk is mared with premades "ruining" some peoples fun.

Theese hardcore que 8hrs+ a day, while casual joe ques 2hrs at most, but most likely less than 1hr.

Casual joe will due too the low intrest of pvp on my server(rp) have to face the same premade the 3-6 times he que'es(most likely 6) depending on the time of the day or week.

 

Casual joe like me isnt so much upset about the loss, its "the way its done" steamroll.

Sometimes casual joe will get into the same side as the dominating premade, and then he will steamroll, again casual joe dont think thats any fun either.

 

So why cant you premade lovers just let us have that solo-only que? oh yah thats right you'd end up fighting other premades all day long, and no more steamrolling, you'd have to work to get your fun.

 

Face it you who cherish the steamrolling style is just "king of the hill" but your fighting 6yrs old and your the 12yrs old...(and by this I dont mean every premade is this kind of attitude)

 

and when I speak of premade here I dont mean the casual group from guild or random that form a group, but those who play hrs in &out with they're mates and is a team.

 

Funny how WoW after x years caved and stopped premade vs pugs (and I'm useing wow as a measure since its the most sucesful western-mmo in terms of active subs).

Funny how wow after 1-2 yrs added "battlegroups" in xserver wz, since they didnt get the result that they needed wanted from pure serverbased.(this is the sad part unless BW invest money and rewrite code xserver is a no-go since hero-engine dont support that :/)

[Gaudrath]

The fix is simple - if you are in a group, you get in a separate queue. Now, nothing stops people from the same guild from hanging out on TS and just queueing individually, then communicating once they land in a same warzone, but the chances of a full group landing on the same side in the same warzone each and every time are nil.

 

Basically, sprinkle people around. At worst you'd get 2-3 guildies on the same side in a given warzone, if that. Problem solved. Not that hard to code either.

 

Personally, I've learned to stay away from warzones during weekends because that's when premades are having their fun in the unranked warzones. Completely kills the fun for the rest of us who just want some casual PvP.

[Exly]

When will this thread die? ..

 

When BioWare finally listens to us and gives solo queuers a separate queue with a proper matchmaking system.

[knownastherat]

They're mad that they lost, and then they rationalize their bad with the excuse of premades. There is no way in the world that each and every premade is a fotm stacking coordinated rated team. It's more likely that these baddies have a selective memory about which games they lose.

 

Indeed, at it was mentioned earlier, the data are in BW possession, to see how severe of a problem is being discussed here.

 

That there is a problem, or rather issue, perhaps everyone agrees on - premade groups often several skill levels above opposition playing unranked warzones. Whether frustration of their opponents is just/deserved or not is matter of opinion.

 

What should be determined, however, is how many players this affects and what are the long term consequences of such environment on the state of PvP and server population in general. It might be working as intended, but this alone tells nothing about how "healthy" such system is, nor how competitive, nor if its fun to play.

[HobbesTay]

I play a lot of solo pvp, both Solo ranked and normal warzones (although it appears people on Red eq have stopped queueing for Solo Ranked now ) and have a fully min/maxed geared toon and a number of alts that are also close to being fully min maxed.

 

In most random warzones you can clearly see the difference between a pre-made and a random group on the opposition and to be honest these matches are just boring if either your team or the opposition are pre-made as they will be very one sided.

 

There are a number of guilds who field pre-made teams in regular warzones on Red eq, and the fact that each and every player is fully min/maxed and they always have a Tank/healer/dps combination means that the chances of a random pug being able to deal with them is slim to none at all.

 

On the rare occasions these players solo queue to normal warzones they are no better than anyone else so it is not an individual skill issue its a combination of Skill/Gear/Team composition/co-ordination which solo pugs just can't compete with.

 

In many instances these pre-mades are up against a team where 80% of the team have less than 28k health which doesn't automatically mean that they are "bads" it just means that they are new players/alts or casual players without the time to gear up further. putting a premade up against a team where 80% have less than 28k is just silly to be honest and can't be fun for either side.

 

match making would be a good start but a totally random Solo queue would be the only way to ensure a "fair" experience for new players/casuals.

[Baron_Samedi]

One of the oldest problems here...

 

If BW enables only solo que, they will cripple PVP severely, cause many premades will start to QQ that they will seize playing, that its their right to play with friends etc.

If BW leaves things as they are, pugs will QQ and threaten to seize playing etc...

 

After this time (am here from beta), I think that the solution would be outside these boxes.

 

1) BW should introduce INGAME COMMS (I think it was Left 4 dead that has them - so there is technology).

These comms would be automatically enabled to the members of the team. So, if you go to WZ and pug it, your mike would automatically enable himself when in WZ.

 

This would require dedicated servers, I think. But would be much more fun to meet ravagers and idiots from other servers. And that means that, say, you would pull people from RP-PVP, RP-PVE, PVE and PVP servers of the same zone (europe, USA...)

 

2) With this, WZ matcher would be automatically solved - programers just input that on every healer on one side there has to be a healer to other side. In dedicated servers - that would be pretty easy and quick. Hence, if you would have healing ring on one side, you would most definitely have healing ring on other. SURE, THERE WOULD BE CASES WHEN THIS WOULD NOT BE THE CASE - BUT THAT'S JUST BAD LUCK AND PARTICULAR CASES, NOT THE RULE!

 

3) Place a debuff for "logout". If DC-ed, no debuff. Debuff - no WZ for half an hour.

 

These would be my proposals for this issue.

Now would like some feedback from peeps who are in programming business to tell me is this actually doable.

Edited November 4, 2013 by Baron_Samedi

[Boufsa]

3) Place a debuff for "logout". If DC-ed, no debuff. Debuff - no WZ for half an hour.

 

These would be my proposals for this issue.

Now would like some feedback from peeps who are in programming business to tell me is this actually doable.

 

Even if it was doable I would not want it because, often the leavers are the worst players and when they are replaced by good players the match can be reverted to a good one. Additionnaly I HATE arenas and will keep leaving if thet put me in.

 

Now, to the point that interest you:

If they put a debuff on me when I click "leave the WZ", but not on DC-ed, I will just do alt+F4 instead of leaving, in order to be treated as a DC-ed. Some games can intercept the alt+F4. I imagine they could do it, but don't think they will because it has huge impacts. But even if they did it, I would still have others options to be considered as a DC-ed. For example I can just unplug the ethernet cable until I am actually DC-ed, and they have no possibility of inferring if being DC-ed is volontary or not, or maybe by analyzing the traffic and observing that instead of becoming fairly slow before the DC-ed, there was just an abrupt shut-down... But that is very very complicated and would require a huge effort and probably be buggy as all the features they add, so I don't think they would take the risk.

 

As a conclustion, they have no possibility to find out who was really DC-ed and who faked it, so if they set a "logout debuff" they have to put it also on DC-ed and it is unfair and would be impopular so they won't do it.

[Baron_Samedi]

Even if it was doable I would not want it because, often the leavers are the worst players and when they are replaced by good players the match can be reverted to a good one. Additionnaly I HATE arenas and will keep leaving if thet put me in.

 

Now, to the point that interest you:

If they put a debuff on me when I click "leave the WZ", but not on DC-ed, I will just do alt+F4 instead of leaving, in order to be treated as a DC-ed. Some games can intercept the alt+F4. I imagine they could do it, but don't think they will because it has huge impacts. But even if they did it, I would still have others options to be considered as a DC-ed. For example I can just unplug the ethernet cable until I am actually DC-ed, and they have no possibility of inferring if being DC-ed is volontary or not, or maybe by analyzing the traffic and observing that instead of becoming fairly slow before the DC-ed, there was just an abrupt shut-down... But that is very very complicated and would require a huge effort and probably be buggy as all the features they add, so I don't think they would take the risk.

 

As a conclustion, they have no possibility to find out who was really DC-ed and who faked it, so if they set a "logout debuff" they have to put it also on DC-ed and it is unfair and would be impopular so they won't do it.

 

1) Usually on Red Eq the ones who LEAVE are the best players who don't want to waste their time on bad pug and/or who are avoiding situation of writing in chat about people's mothers, fathers and others in intercourse with horses, dogs etc. (i.e. swearing their pants out on people without even sane logic).

Hence - you want people to stay and make their business.

 

2) You are right - you can even, for example, turn computer off. But, if you want to remove ethernet cable, turn off computer or whatever and then go to launcher, punch in the code, wait for code confirmation via e-mail (ok, optional, but still...), then main menu, log in... Much effort for just stay and a) joke around, b) try to do something and/or flame intelects over chat.

 

3) Ok, you hate arenas. I hate Corruptor Zero's Heavy Cleave attack in Dread Fortress HM. Should I not go to DF? Maybe - but he is dropping Oriconian. So - as always and everywhere - there are things you like and you don't like. You do them if you like the end result.

[Boufsa]

Alt-f4 is enough. I am on SSD hard drive so the game launch pretty fast. Compared to using the "leave WZ" button, I will maybe loose 20s at most. And as I stated it is highly improbable they will detect the alt+f4 because even if they did that it would not solve the problem. I took the unplug example, but I have many other options like for example tuning my firewall, and interrupt only enough to get disconnected do the servers page, so that I don't even have to close and re-launch the game. Sorry for you, but it is quick and easy to go around your proposition.

 

 

In the arenas if you are considered a week class as I am and focused from the start by those F*** sneaky assassins, you often get 0 medals during the fight, which gives absolutely no valor or commendations at the end. If you force me to stay, I can maybe do a /stuck and wait for the end of the fight? By doing so I ensure I won't get replaced and my team mates will be 3v4 all along, which is quite deadly most of the time.

 

Only solution is to set up a "no arenas" option, and you will soon see that non ranked arenas will get deserted pretty quickly because most players don't like it

[t-darko]

1) Usually on Red Eq the ones who LEAVE are the best players who don't want to waste their time on bad pug and/or who are avoiding situation of writing in chat about people's mothers, fathers and others in intercourse with horses, dogs etc. (i.e. swearing their pants out on people without even sane logic).

Hence - you want people to stay and make their business.

 

so, have I understood this correctly? 'The good players' pass on the opportunity to show off their awesomeness, be the deciding factor to win a WZ, or to create a reputation as the the good player who teach the 'bads' a few tricks to get them better and by his lonesome got the skills to carry a mediocre team to victory!!??

 

OR did the 'good player' realize that this is not the team to carry HIM to victory!!???????

[MahneWarrior]

A good player can only carry so much. A great player can carry pretty much anyone. It is not fair for you to expect a good player to be able to carry a team with 4 or 5 players with 24k hp, no healer, that do not bother to call INC. Sure you could have your focus target on the guy playing def, but end of the day a good player has limits, they are not super awesome like you see people streaming that can 1 v 5 people.

[t-darko]

A good player can only carry so much. A great player can carry pretty much anyone. It is not fair for you to expect a good player to be able to carry a team with 4 or 5 players with 24k hp, no healer, that do not bother to call INC. Sure you could have your focus target on the guy playing def, but end of the day a good player has limits, they are not super awesome like you see people streaming that can 1 v 5 people.

 

So how does the good player become a Great player? Is it by leaving ... ?

[SajPl]

so, have I understood this correctly? 'The good players' pass on the opportunity to show off their awesomeness, be the deciding factor to win a WZ, or to create a reputation as the the good player who teach the 'bads' a few tricks to get them better and by his lonesome got the skills to carry a mediocre team to victory!!??

 

OR did the 'good player' realize that this is not the team to carry HIM to victory!!???????

 

So in this huttball I have these 4 utterly useless scrubs that white-bar the ballcarrier near (not in) every fire possible so that I cannot firepit him. How am I to carry such badds in huttball? Funny enough I got another huttball right after that one. I waited on purpouse for it to start, then wrote that I refuse to carry such badness (same badds) and then left wishing them a horrible wipe:rak_01::rak_01:.

 

Good players can only carry so much ....

Edited November 5, 2013 by SajPl

[LeonHawkeye]

Bump because even with the introduction of Solo Ranked queues (For ARENA only, which are not for everyone and also tend to draw a grossly long queue time when it comes to Ranked at off prime time hours, which again not everyone can play during.) Premade Vs Pug play is still an absurd and preposterous problem which undeniably repels more players than it attracts.

 

SWTOR PvP Desperately needs:

Cross Server function.

Adequate Matchmaking.

Premade Vs Premade, Pug Vs Pug separation.

 

W.O.W was wise enough to realize the atrocity that is Premade Vs Pug play and eventually set measures in place to stem and alleviate the problem. SWTOR would do well to follow at the very least this example.

[DainjaMouz]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suggest that the absence of a formal response from BW (or involvement from their moderator in this discussion) suggests that this is not a big deal for them. I'm guessing this is because THEY HAVE DATA, and you don't. Like any business, BW is interested in optimizing revenue. This will ultimately result in decisions that make some players unhappy. If the data were showing that dastardly, handlebar moustache-wearin' premades were causing hordes of subscribers to flee, I'm sure they'd do something about it. After 6000+ posts, all saying variations of the same thing, this thread is likely just background noise to the BW team.

 

I've asked for data, so that this contest of opinions could be settled objectively (one way or the other). If you're tired of the inanity, perhaps you could do the same thing.

 

If you're really interested in getting BW's attention to create a "tot lot" WZ, it's time to recognize the limits of showing up on a discussion board. You need to take more visible action. Perhaps you could arrange a protest outside of BW offices, or picket the SWTOR roadshow, or the BW booth at CES. Maybe coordinate sending BW pictures of the 1000s of dead pugs sacrificed to the premade horde. More whining here isn't going to help.

 

As I've said before, I don't have an issue with premades, even though I only queue solo unranked. I'm just trying to help out the haterz so that they can get back to being WZ fodder for my commendation count. I just need another week or so before I'm in full Obroan!

Edited November 6, 2013 by DainjaMouz

[VIZIOO]

It seen that premade groups is something Bioware refuses to fix.