Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

[Angellis]

When people say that premades only win because they got TS and good class roles (2 dps, 1 tank, 1 heal), they assume that the pug was at even individual skill to begin with. This is never the case. Since 90% of pugs are terrible, and will lose regardless if good players are on TS together or have good class roles.

This.

 

/5char

[DainjaMouz]

I remember when it used to be that way, but not any more. Queue times are ok at peak, but off peak they are getting longer and longer. And no, I do not have a screen shot to prove it, but I am now even seeing messages in general chat asking why there are no queue pops.

 

Edit: The other thing that I am seeing now that I did not see in the past is that it seems like at least half of the warzones that I queue for are now training exercises instead of faction against faction. I don't know why this is happening, but on thing that makes sense to me is that people are letting premades squash their desire to queue.

 

Different server? I'll stand my my observation. Example: yesterday during peak server hours, I was done with my six (6) dailies in less than 90 minutes, two of which were full-length Huttball.

 

Like you, I have noticed that most of my WZs are Imp v. Imp. these days. Maybe Pubs are more likely to flee from the premade scourge. Perhaps Imps are willing to take the occasional beatdown because we understand that if it doesn't kill us, it makes us stronger.

[Exly]

Different server? I'll stand my my observation. Example: yesterday during peak server hours, I was done with my six (6) dailies in less than 90 minutes, two of which were full-length Huttball.

 

Like you, I have noticed that most of my WZs are Imp v. Imp. these days. Maybe Pubs are more likely to flee from the premade scourge. Perhaps Imps are willing to take the occasional beatdown because we understand that if it doesn't kill us, it makes us stronger.

 

So you have seen al lot of same faction warzones too, and you are even willing to admit that some player's may not queue because they don't want to get pugstomped. Also, maybe the Imp. player's are staying because they have a chance of having a premade on their side, and they are willing to take the chance and then leave mid warzone if things aren't going their way.

Edited October 30, 2013 by Exly

[DainjaMouz]

So you have seen al lot of same faction warzones too, and you are even willing to admit that some player's may not queue because they don't want to get pugstomped. Also, maybe the Imp. player's are staying because they have a chance of having a premade on their side, and they are willing to take the chance and then leave mid warzone if things aren't going their way.

 

Hmmmm...what was it I said? Oh, maybe it was this:

I say this as a player who still gets his **** handed to him on a regular basis, based on the luck of the draw. I've also handed out a lot of **** based on the luck of the draw. What I DON'T do is complain about premades. What I do instead is to take a look at the toons on the other team and think to myself "next time my queue hits with a couple of those guys on my side, we're going to rock".

 

No, wait. That wasn't it. Maybe it was this:

I'm not contesting anyone's point that a group of players that practices consistently together and uses voicecomm is going to have an advantage. I'm surprised that the research you reference didn't win an Ig Nobel Prize. Thanks, Captain Obvious!

 

Oh, now I remember. It was this:

...the only other logical explanation is that the <premade> complainers want the same incentives as players who put effort into coordinated gameplay, but they don't want to be bothered to actually put effort into coordination. It's like a soccer league for preschoolers: you can't keep score, and everyone gets a trophy. I hear WoW offers this sort of gameplay.

 

My memory is foggy, but I might have said this as well:

A disclaimer: as I've said before, I don't think SWTOR has a significant premade problem. Every MMO has its unique set of issues, and people end up choosing the ones they can live with. I would be concerned with any system-based solution, because it would end up penalizing players simply interested in playing a wz with friends. While the current system isn't perfect, it's working for a significant majority of players.

 

FYI...I'm making this paragraph up right now, as I type. Although it may feel like the Star Wars universe is against you, landing on a side that is exceptionally overmatched (for whatever reason) happens to ALL OF US. Anyone who says otherwise is lying, and is not a smart liar either. As I see it, you can do one of two things. You can either bail on the WZ (dropping or hiding in a corner to collect your daily tickmark), leaving everyone else in the lurch; or, you take the opportunity to actually figure out how to play your class. Contrary to popular belief, snipers aren't a great defensive class and it takes some effort to prolong your existence. Some of my best work learning to defend has been done getting while getting pounded on by a better team.

[DainjaMouz]

So you have seen al lot of same faction warzones too, and you are even willing to admit that some player's may not queue because they don't want to get pugstomped. Also, maybe the Imp. player's are staying because they have a chance of having a premade on their side, and they are willing to take the chance and then leave mid warzone if things aren't going their way.

 

One other thing: I said "Pubs" are fleeing the premade scourge, not "pugs". I don't have a huge concern with Pub flight, because Imp v. Imp generally makes for a more competitive, interesting WZ anyway. And yes, I did go there

[Exly]

One other thing: I said "Pubs" are fleeing the premade scourge, not "pugs". I don't have a huge concern with Pub flight, because Imp v. Imp generally makes for a more competitive, interesting WZ anyway. And yes, I did go there

 

Well, the last time that I checked Pubs are people too. So when I said "some people" are not queueing that is what I meant. And since my server is Pub dominated, and the one's not queueing are Imps, my decision was to say "some people" instead of saying Pubs or Imps or even pugs. And the fact that you don't have a concern about Pub flight makes me think that you agree with me when I say that people are choosing not to play, and you are ok with that. Unfortunately though, If enough people choose not to play, then there will be nobody left to play, and PvP will end up as dead as Ranked 8v8's were before they were removed from the game. Since I do not want that to happen, I do have a problem with people choosing not to queue because premades are ruining their experience, and I will continue to voice my opinion on the matter until either BioWare fixes the problem, or I decide to quit the game and do something else with my time.

[DarthBloodloss]

Why are you surprised?

I'm surprised because of how long the same toons are doing premade unranked. Easily over a year of pugstomping with the same premade. I'm surprised that they are still entertained is all.

What I don't understand is - how is it possible that if I queue for unranked solo warzones, I get dumped into a warzone with a frikkin' premade on the other end?

My guess would be because of one of the following:

1) Group ranked isnt active so they sit in the queue for too long and end up just quad queuing for solo

2) They only have 2 or 3 people and do solo queue at the same time.

 

I find that when I do solo queue for an hour or two, the majority of matches have at least a few of the same allies and enemies. This makes me realize that no one else is queuing, and any 3 or 4 man premade could easily get the same arena.

[Exly]

Hmmmm...what was it I said? Oh, maybe it was this:

 

 

No, wait. That wasn't it. Maybe it was this:

 

 

Oh, now I remember. It was this:

 

 

My memory is foggy, but I might have said this as well:

 

 

FYI...I'm making this paragraph up right now, as I type. Although it may feel like the Star Wars universe is against you, landing on a side that is exceptionally overmatched (for whatever reason) happens to ALL OF US. Anyone who says otherwise is lying, and is not a smart liar either. As I see it, you can do one of two things. You can either bail on the WZ (dropping or hiding in a corner to collect your daily tickmark), leaving everyone else in the lurch; or, you take the opportunity to actually figure out how to play your class. Contrary to popular belief, snipers aren't a great defensive class and it takes some effort to prolong your existence. Some of my best work learning to defend has been done getting while getting pounded on by a better team.

 

Fyi I just did my dailies on my balance sage. I won 2 out of five matches, I got a total of 5 mpv votes, topped the teams damage list in two warzones, and topped damage and healing in one arena beating out sage healer that did zero damage. And even though I lost 3 of 5, I still had fun because they were pure pug on pug matches, and in each case the team that played best won. So, even though I know that I am far from the best player out there, I also know that not all pugs are bad, and that having a separate queue would serve to enable more people to experience the type of fun play that I just did instead of having to be disheartened by having to face premades that seem to enjoy their pug stomping ways just a little too much.

Edited October 30, 2013 by Exly

[Domatron]

Fyi I still had fun because they were pure pug on pug matches

 

How could you know this? I queue with people from other guilds all the time, in fact one of the best premades I've been in recently had people from 4 different guilds.

[cashogy_reborn]

People think they have the same skill level as those who premade.

 

So then they believe that because of their coordination and voice communication, that's where the loss comes from.

 

If pugs and premades had the same overall individual skill level, I could defiantly see your point. However, the individual skill levels are not the same. Therefore, you can't blame the loss on coordination.

 

Coordination is important in warzones for sure, but in regular warzones, it isn't a large contributing factor like it is in ranked. Individual skill is the largest contributing factor for a win. (This applies to the team as a whole)

 

This. If you lose a ton, it has more to do with you than it does with what the other team is doing.

[DarthRaika]

 

90% of pugs are terrible, and will lose regardless if good players are on TS together or have good class roles.

 

I agree with this completely. However, I think what you said above is a major reason FOR matchmaking.

 

A premade chooses 50% of their team. This means that they can choose to have 50% of their team geared and at least mediocre (not part of that 90%).

 

Skill matters more than gear to a point, however this game has a very low skill softcap and so gear does matter more than some people will admit. Check those pug scrubs with 500 bonus dmg and 1.5k expertise and then check your gear with 900+ bonus dmg, 2k exp, and 4-6k more hp. Even if this player was more skilled than you (although I am sure he is not lol) he would be about half as much of a threat.

 

You choose to have 50% of your team much better than the above scrub. A pug player does not have that ability. This is why matchmaking is so sorely needed.

 

Most of the good players got bored premading long ago and quit. I know I got bored very quickly, however I stayed around to pug and I don't really mind whether I win or lose a videogame anymore. (Before you insult me , I still win a lot more than I lose but I just don't really care).

 

All I want is for this game's pvp to succeed since I think it at least had a lot of potential. I do worry now that it is too late though. I believe the current system bored many of the skilled premaders into quitting and made many of the newer and less skilled puggers give up and that is why the pvp population has fallen so drastically.

 

I don't know if premade matching and cross server can grow the population anymore, but I do strongly believe that without it then this game's pug population will continue to decline and that even more premaders will get bored.

[livinlife]

gg pp (good game premade *******) just keep taunting them with that

[livinlife]

and when they ask why u hate premades so much tell thats were bads hide can name them all if ya want

[Wainamoinen]

...can name them all if ya want

 

The temptation to say something like "bet you can't" is very great at this point.

[Angellis]

You choose to have 50% of your team much better than the above scrub. A pug player does not have that ability. This is why matchmaking is so sorely needed.

Yes, but a pug *does* have the ability to gear up*, to learn the warzone, to not back-pedal, to study his class, to keybind his abilities, to try and re-try and test combinations, to type words into Ops chat, to watch and learn how better players play and then improve.

 

A pug does *not* have a right to walk into a warzone, wearing awful gear, with a limited understanding of his class, with no awareness of his surroundings, not understanding how the objectives work, not working with the team, not communicating --- against an experienced fully geared more-skilled player or group of players who may or may not choose to group together (and use voice coms) and *then* complain that he is getting stomped.

 

If 90% of pugs were really good solo players who just kept on getting unlucky with random groups vs premades then I'd feel a bit unlucky for them (and myself, since I solo, although we have just as much chance of being on a good team), and then only if 90% of premades were good (but they aren't. Most premades are friends who play together and aren't that great). But 90% of puggers are pretty poor players who just need to improve. IMHO, these people are more likely to learn from defeat than being carried by others and thinking that they are not as bad as they think they are. Or they can choose to give in. Yes, a really good pre-made should probably beat average pugs in the majority of cases, but if you are getting absolutely hopelessly smashed, that isn't the premade - that is you and/or your team being terrible. In those cases you need to look in the mirror. (E.g. being three-capped in NC or CW.)

Edited October 31, 2013 by Angellis

[DainjaMouz]

A pug does *not* have a right to walk into a warzone, wearing awful gear, with a limited understanding of his class, with no awareness of his surroundings, not understanding how the objectives work, not working with the team, not communicating --- against an experienced fully geared more-skilled player or group of players who may or may not choose to group together (and use voice coms) and *then* complain that he is getting stomped.

 

^^^THIS! Thanks for boiling down my 20+ posts into a single paragraph! Seriously, if all you want to do is blow **** up, there's always CoD.

[DainjaMouz]

Well, the last time that I checked Pubs are people too.

 

Best...sentence...EVAH!

[t-darko]

So while he's doing this;

 

Yes, but a pug *does* have the ability to gear up*, to learn the warzone, to not back-pedal, to study his class, to keybind his abilities, to try and re-try and test combinations, to type words into Ops chat, to watch and learn how better players play and then improve.

 

And while he's trying to get there fully geared and fully learned, you let him now that this is a no, no because;

 

A pug does *not* have a right to walk into a warzone, wearing awful gear, with a limited understanding of his class, with no awareness of his surroundings, not understanding how the objectives work, not working with the team, not communicating --- against an experienced fully geared more-skilled player or group of players who may or may not choose to group together (and use voice coms) and *then* complain that he is getting stomped.

 

A bit harsh but accurate description of how it used to be, but shouldn't 'cos we had ranked 8 vs 8 back then, where these guys where supposed to be organized

--- against an experienced fully geared more-skilled player or group of players who may or may not choose to group together (and use voice coms) ...

 

Then you give him this inspirational speech to keep him motivated to meet your standards;

 

If 90% of pugs were really good solo players who just kept on getting unlucky with random groups vs premades then I'd feel a bit unlucky for them (and myself, since I solo, although we have just as much chance of being on a good team), and then only if 90% of premades were good (but they aren't. Most premades are friends who play together and aren't that great). But 90% of puggers are pretty poor players who just need to improve. IMHO, these people are more likely to learn from defeat than being carried by others and thinking that they are not as bad as they think they are. Or they can choose to give in. Yes, a really good pre-made should probably beat average pugs in the majority of cases, but if you are getting absolutely hopelessly smashed, that isn't the premade - that is you and/or your team being terrible. In those cases you need to look in the mirror. (E.g. being three-capped in NC or CW.)

 

But, he just quit PVP cos who want's be bullied and harassed when your suppose to have fun? NO ONE

 

And there is no more Ranked 8 vs 8, figures ...

 

so what do u do when there's no more PUG's do stomp? You move along to the next 'gret' game and do it all over again!! and this one cheered you on;

 

^^^THIS! Thanks for boiling down my 20+ posts into a single paragraph! Seriously, if all you want to do is blow **** up, there's always CoD.

 

You aren't a contributor, you are a bully. And if I had you here I bend u over my lap for a good spanking, Now, run along ... Shew ...

Edited October 31, 2013 by t-darko

[Angellis]

So while he's doing this;

 

And while he's trying to get there fully geared and fully learned, you let him now that this is a no, no because;

We all had to go through the process of gearing up. We still do on alts. I have absolutely no problem with ungeared players in my warzone, within reason, because everyone has to start somewhere. They have just as much right to play as I do. But, tautologically, I have as much right to be there as they do - with whomever I want. I am not calling for ignorant undergeared lazy and clueless scrubs to be banned from warzones, so I don't see why anyone should object to decent players who bother to max their toons and play objectives being in any warzone.

 

No one expects to walk into end-game PvE content and succeed at the hardest raids in bad PvE gear. This is taken for granted. Why on earth would anyone expect any different in end-game PvP? No one ever claimed this was an equal opportunities game. Nothing in real life is either. The best minds will always win, so will the best players. Gear plays a big part too, but it isn't everything. I groan when I see people in my 8-man team with low HP but I still play the game. What I *do* have a problem with is those who clearly haven't bothered to educate themselves about the content they are entering, and are wearing old PvP sets with obsolete expertise. Or whose gear is so bad the only excuse is laziness or lack of understanding. These people deserve no sympathy. In PvE the content would simply be *closed* to them. But in PvP they can still enter the WZ at least and get comms and gear, even for losing (!). If this person gets stomped by better players in better gear, then I'm sorry but cry me a frakking river...

 

...But to actual claim that PREMADES (read: people who enjoy playing together and play to win) are RUINING regular warzones is such a dishonest and disgraceful statement. It's SCRUBS (*not* PUGS) who ruin warzones, but I accept that it's a free system and everyone pays their money and has a right to play. Some people much better than me will beat me and I will beat people who don't put in the effort. In such a system these things can happen.

[DainjaMouz]

You aren't a contributor, you are a bully. And if I had you here I bend u over my lap for a good spanking, Now, run along ... Shew ...

 

Oh! Oh! Can i get spanked too please? 'Cause I said this:

 

<The only> logical explanation is that the complainers want the same incentives as players who put effort into coordinated gameplay, but they don't want to be bothered to actually put effort into coordination. It's like a soccer league for preschoolers: you can't keep score, and everyone gets a trophy.

 

I've been a baaaad boy! Spank me! Spank me!

[Angellis]

But, he just quit PVP cos who want's be bullied and harassed when your suppose to have fun? NO ONE

...

so what do u do when there's no more PUG's do stomp? You move along to the next 'gret' game and do it all over again!! and this one cheered you on;

If you're going to discuss this, please attack what I actually said, not what you think I said or who you think I am.

 

I despise bullies and people who harass people. The problem with your argument is the problem with most junk on these forums: it's simply bad argumentative form. People attack strawmen all the time, and beg the question.

 

You need to logically connect premades in warzones with "bullying and harassment". This is a pretty strong and unsavoury claim - so good luck trying to prove it. I won't bother discussing this any further since it's a ridiculous and totally arbitrary claim. Beating someone is not bullying them.

 

This "supposed to have fun" line interests me. This implies that you think having fun is the mort important thing. Which means that winning isn't the most important thing. Therefore, if a pug team loses 20 times against a premade but still has fun, there is no problem right? Fortunately, this never happens anyway. There simply aren't that many world class premades running warzones, and almost none of them do it for the sole intent of stomping pugs. If somebody finds themselves in warzones where they are consistently being totally outplayed and decimated, that person needs to take a serious look at his teammates, and in the mirror. Yes, against a pre-made there is more chance of this happening than in a random 8v8 pug, but that's only because the other pugs are papering over the cracks in each other's gameplay; and then the big bad premade comes along to show up how bad they are. That isn't bullying, that isn't harassment, that isn't the premade's fault. And that person on the receiving is quite welcome to adapt, or quit the game. (And if you think that this game will lose a noticeable amount of PvP subs simply because of this, then we simply have a difference of opinion.)

 

 

Edited to add: this game *will* lose PvP subs...but not because of this.

 

Edited again to add: the people I do feel sorry for are the decent solo-queuers who keep ending up with scrubs against a good premade. This person probably tries their heart out but keeps losing. This is a shame, and I've been on the receiving end many times (more often in lowbie). But just because something unfortunate happens occasionally doesn't mean the entire system needs changing. By definition, bad luck doesn't last forever and it works both ways. Penalising groups of people is not the answer.

Edited October 31, 2013 by Angellis

[General_Aldo]

I agree with this completely. However, I think what you said above is a major reason FOR matchmaking.

 

A premade chooses 50% of their team. This means that they can choose to have 50% of their team geared and at least mediocre (not part of that 90%).

 

Skill matters more than gear to a point, however this game has a very low skill softcap and so gear does matter more than some people will admit. Check those pug scrubs with 500 bonus dmg and 1.5k expertise and then check your gear with 900+ bonus dmg, 2k exp, and 4-6k more hp. Even if this player was more skilled than you (although I am sure he is not lol) he would be about half as much of a threat.

 

You choose to have 50% of your team much better than the above scrub. A pug player does not have that ability. This is why matchmaking is so sorely needed.

 

Most of the good players got bored premading long ago and quit. I know I got bored very quickly, however I stayed around to pug and I don't really mind whether I win or lose a videogame anymore. (Before you insult me , I still win a lot more than I lose but I just don't really care).

 

All I want is for this game's pvp to succeed since I think it at least had a lot of potential. I do worry now that it is too late though. I believe the current system bored many of the skilled premaders into quitting and made many of the newer and less skilled puggers give up and that is why the pvp population has fallen so drastically.

 

I don't know if premade matching and cross server can grow the population anymore, but I do strongly believe that without it then this game's pug population will continue to decline and that even more premaders will get bored.

 

Check out my steams. I pug 100%. (might change soon)

 

People need to really learn their class, and actually contribute to their team.

 

There is no way to differentiate personal skill

[DainjaMouz]

Funny story. I usually try to squeeze in a couple of matches on my lunch break. Today when I log in, I'm dropped into NC with around 8 seconds to go on the start timer. I take a quick look at my team comp to see if we've got any heals I should stay close to, or if there's another sniper that I can focus target, when I notice that NO-ONE IS COVERING SIDE! I scroll as far back as I can in the ops log to see if there's some mention of a magical new strategy for NC, but nada. Sure enough, when the start timer hits zero, everyone runs out the door to the southern node. As a result, the class you least want soloing a node take and hold goes and gets the node.

 

What's even funnier is that our side won. After 12 minutes of keystone cops, we had a victory. I'm not sure if there were premades on either side; but if there were, I'm sure the Mumble channel sounded something like: "Whaaaaa! Look Out! ****! No, the OTHER East! ****! Somebody help me!!!"

 

There are a lot better snipers than I am. I'm still humping to consistently hit 300k damage in NC, and some days are better than others. As I've said previously, if I'm working with a team that understands how to play their classes (esp. tanks and healers), I can do +400k without breaking a sweat. I've put a lot of effort into improving, even while being on the receiving end of various and sundry stompings. IMO winning is fun. I'm willing to work at learning my class and paying attention to details in order to win, so that I can have fun. When I suggest that players that just want to blow **** up should switch to CoD, this is what I'm talking about.

[DarthRaika]

Check out my steams. I pug 100%. (might change soon)

 

People need to really learn their class, and actually contribute to their team.

 

There is no way to differentiate personal skill

 

I agree with a lot of your reasoning in this threat but I disagree with the conclusions you come to.

 

I assume both of us have fun when we play and both of us are the best of the pugs on our team most matches so I am not insulting you at all.

 

The issue though, imo, is one of fun for others and keeping a healthy pvp population so we can keep having fun.

 

SWTOR has a great warzone pvp set up. People complain (they always will) but balance is better in this game than any other mmo. I have all 8 classes and have tried healing/tank/dps on all that have access to those roles and while some are slightly weaker than others they all have their place and there aren't any that are way UP or way OP.

 

Also, huttball is great!

 

The potential is there. However, many skilled players have quit and many noobs have given up. I believe that the reason for both of these things is the lack of matchmaking.

 

If you are a noob then getting pugstomped over and over and over is not even remotely fun. Sure they can get better but what mentally healthy individual would want to spend the time to get better in this type of environment? With matchmaking they would get pugstomped sometimes and even in even matches they still would do worse than others but it wouldn't be nearly as painful for them as it has been. If you want your kid to like basketball would you make him play against a college team for much of his basketball experience?

 

If you are a good player who enjoys premading and is well adjusted irl then pugstomping gets boring after awhile. Would a college basketball team enjoy playing against a bunch of highschool students over and over?

 

This is, imo, why a game with such potential has bled so many pvprs. Many of the good well adjusted premaders became bored and the mediocre or less skilled puggers got fed up and quit.

 

Regardless of whether you believe players should get better or not the reality is that they are not and will not under the current system. As it is, swtor will continue to decline.

[DarthRaika]

Oh noes...did I break the thread?