Going to stop you right there and clear up two major misconceptions and clearly ignorant claims of yours. 1)Premades are undoubtedly the minority and most definitely not the majority. How and why you would claim this is quite baffling. 2)Premades do not in fact face other Premades most of the time. This problem is further exacerbated if your server is not one of the main PvP Hubs. This problem is not as noticeable in a major PvP Server, where the Premade competition is abundant but in any other server the problem is not only clear but completely out of control. On a semi-related note, our current matchmaking system is so broken many players blatantly abuse it to "Win Trade" in 4v4 Arenas. I am an avid PvPer and have run on multiple servers, including the two main US PvP Servers as well as indulged in both group play and solo play. Premade Vs Pug play is not competition nor does it have anything beneficial to offer for either end, in fact it most definitely repels more players than it attracts and/or benefits. Other games were quick to alleviate this abomination of a problem for good reason, but the problem here also lies in the lack of foresight of the development team. Ranked play was not adequately developed and implemented. The upper tier of players, the Premades, have no real reason nor incentive to play Ranked and thus pour into the "Solo" queue. SWTOR PvP desperately needs: Cross Server function, Adequate Matchmaking, and perhaps even a forced Ranked Queue for teams of 4 or a segregation of PUG and Premade teams. With the implementation of Cross Server function, the revival of 8v8 Warzones would become feasible as well as offer a bolstered pool of PvPers in which to draw plenty of competition, alleviating the problem of increased queue times by the segregation for both PUGs and Premades.

Bump because even with the introduction of Solo Ranked queues (For ARENA only, which are not for everyone and also tend to draw a grossly long queue time when it comes to Ranked at off prime time hours, which again not everyone can play during.) Premade Vs Pug play is still an absurd and preposterous problem which undeniably repels more players than it attracts. SWTOR PvP Desperately needs: Cross Server function. Adequate Matchmaking. Premade Vs Premade, Pug Vs Pug separation. W.O.W was wise enough to realize the atrocity that is Premade Vs Pug play and eventually set measures in place to stem and alleviate the problem. SWTOR would do well to follow at the very least this example.

Still a pretty serious problem. The fact that a full premade of 4 can be put up against any combination PUGs with 1-3 premade teams in Arena is also a disgustingly terrible matchmaking problem. Premades need their own queues and we all need Cross Realm Function.

Agreed, although I am a hardcore PvPer I do not enjoy having a random Arena pop up when I specifically DID NOT queue for it. Queues need to remain separate and not become a random potluck of queue dodging until you encounter a Warzone which you queued for. Cross Realm Function would alleviate this and many other problems easily, how or why it has not been implemented yet is beyond me. Bioware seriously needs to rethink their priorities, PvP is an absolute mess with little to no Class Balance changes and obvious neglect for PvP as a whole.

To the top with you.

Well said, great post could not agree more. PvP rewards are woefully inadequate.

The underlined are desperately needed but Bioware has admitted to not having the resources to commit to such a system or simply has no interest in doing so. In any case, PvP desperately needs a fix, if the situation remains as is, the overwhelming vast majority that is everyone that does not or cannot be part of a pre-made for whatever reason will slowly begin to avoid PvP or quit altogether, which is good for no one. As otherworlder has described, a simple On/Off switch to prevent yourself from being grouped with or against pre-mades would be a quick and simple fix. The only people that see a problem with this are the people in the Pre-mades themselves as it could possibly increase their queue time to roflstomp more PUGs.

Indeed, although Mandos/Mercs received many changes, none of them were the right changes or simply fell short of what they actually needed to be viable in end game, competitive PvP. Commandos/Mercenaries will undoubtedly be bottom tier come Arenas.

Extremely well said and exceptionally thought out. I commend you good sir and could not agree more. This would be a great and healthy addition to the game. I once considered myself a hardcore subscribing PvPer, I signed up for the 6 month recurring sub just to PvP, but I lament to admit this last sub was a complete and utter waste and I'll be allowing it to die. I sincerely doubt I will re-sub. I have not only abandoned PvP due to the blatant problems mentioned by the thread but also the gross lack of content updates (PvP related), and absurdly slow balance patches/hotfixes. The overall lackluster and player repelling experience of PvP is literally unhealthy and only serves to stem and eventually kill off the population that actually enjoys fair and competitive PvP.

Agreed, it is obvious to everyone including the sensible people in the Pre-mades themselves that this is a problem that will inevitably stem and eventually kill off all but the most hardcore of PvP players. The "feature" known as Pre-made VS PUG Warzones is a grossly one sided system that offers very little if anything in terms of fair competition and only serves to discourage and possibly convince casual players and or players whom either do not have access to a Pre-made 24/7 or prefer to play alone, to simply quit or avoid PvP altogether. While the nuances can be argued and debated to no end, no one can deny the horrible and bitter experience of being in a PUG faced against a Pre-made. There is nothing fair, fun or motivating about this for the PUG side. Calling the vast majority of the player base that is casual out and relegating them to form their own pre-mades is not only naive, but also unrealistic and slightly arrogant. This game is not a job and only the very hardcore take this game seriously, the remainder of the player base will simply take their business elsewhere when presented with a model that is clearly not only not fair but dam near unbearable. Pre-mades belong in the Ranked queue, we can blame Bioware/EA for them not having proper incentive to be there, I don't blame them, it offers nothing but a headache at the moment and was very poorly implemented. What we truly need are the following: Cross Server Queue function. Adequate Matchmaking. Force groups of 4 into the Ranked Queue. A hundred threads of this nature exist and a hundred more will spawn after it because it clearly is a gross problem for the vast majority of the community.

-Cross Realm Function -Adequate Matchmaking System that actually matches Premade Vs Premade or at the very least group of 2-4 against group of 2-4, none of this Full on 8/8 PUG Vs Premade of any size nonsense. -Move groups of 4 into the Ranked Queue system. Do it nao Bioware. The stated fixes would bring some semblance of competition to PvP and inject life into the Ranked Warzone Bracket. It would not only alleviate most if not all problems PvPers are having but even bolster the entire pool and give incentive for players to queue for Ranked, especially if cross realm function goes live with many, many more teams to compete against instead of just the 4-10 that queue per server, with few if any of them taking PvP for anything more than an absolute joke.

If you can't take down a Merc as a Sentinel, you're doing it wrong. Mercs are definitely better post 2.0 and a well played one with all his cooldowns up can be a beast but Mercs still have to be played like a piano to be remotely decent. If even 1-2 of their cooldowns are down and the player is not a complete and utter expert with their Merc, they'll still melt like they did pre 2.0. I can sadly admit I would tear through my own level 55 Merc on my Level 55 Sentinel, keep in mind my Merc was my first main and by far the character I am most experienced in. Mercs aren't the free kills they were pre 2.0 but they're still not quite Ranked ready nor are they very hard to counter, unfortunately.

Agreed but unfortunately every game will have it's core of casuals and the reality is that it is those players that make up the biggest portion of the player base, although unintentional the current matchmaking system, if we can even call it that, alienates that portion of the player base while only benefiting a very small portion: those whom premade regularly. If all those players have a horrible, close to unbearable experience which Pug Vs Premade is akin to, then decide to quit, the PvP matchmaking pool dries up, PvP dies, then shortly after the game dies which is good for no one. I myself run premades close to 60% of the time and Pug 40% the time and can fully admit no matter what end I am on, Pug Vs Premade is not competition, it's not PvP it's simply a roflstomp due to the overwhelmingly large gap in general skill, coordination and sometimes simply communication.

Bump for justice. If things are left as is, you will not only lose the core of the casual player base, which believe it or not are the vast majority but you will also effectively repel anyone who cannot play in a Premade group 24/7 which also believe it or not make up the vast majority of the player base. While I agree competition is king and our aim should be for better games overall, keeping the paradigm as is, is not the way. We desperately need: Adequate matchmaking. (To Prevent lopsided and mismatched games such as Pug Vs Premade.) Cross Realm Function. (To bolster the matchmaking pool and offer a much more robust ladder for both Regular and especially Ranked play. As it stands Ranked play is near impossible and meaningless with most servers fielding less than 10, some sadly even less than 5 total active teams participating in Ranked play, even less of those do so regularly or bother to take it as anything less than a complete joke.)

To the top with you.

No, not quite. A well played Sage is extremely versatile and can be a real beast and asset to the team. A well played Commando can be average to semi-decent at best when all Cooldowns are up. Mandos are in a better state now than pre-2.0 but they're still not Ranked worthy, Electro net has too long a cooldown to be deemed ranked necessary.

Well said. Adequate matchmaking is desperately needed. Premade Vs Pug needs to be phased out one way or another. It simply does not belong in game in any way shape or form.

Exactly this. The vast majority of content or otherwise satisfied customers never complain or feel a need to chime into most public mediums of communication so what you have going public mostly are the discontent, ignorant, naive or otherwise dissatisfied. I wouldn't count on the vocal minority but I also would not ignore it completely. As a whole the new Bolster system was working as was intended, it was not intended to keep obsolete last content tier gear at the top, it was intended to lower and tighten the gap between the top tier and bottom tier, this it did beautifully and almost perfectly. The outcry I assume was because people were not happy that they could no longer overwhelm those in lesser gear with their previously top tier gear. Unfortunately BW listened to these people but fortunately the shift was not big and the new paradigm stays: Skill>Gear. For the record several of my friends and I spent weeks, months grinding BM, WH, and EWH and consider ourselves to be fairly active if not hardcore PvPers yet still find the new Bolster system brings much to the table while taking away very little.

Well said. Have had some of the most engaging, dynamic fair and dare I say fun PvP matches I have had since launch. I'm one of the people that spent weeks, months grinding Battlemaster, War Hero and Elite War Hero, I also maxed out my ALT characters in top augmented gear while leveling and yet still can admit that the new Bolster brings so much to the table and takes away very little, I love the new Bolster change. I can compete as a lv 50-54 regardless of full WH/EWH, naked or otherwise reasonably and tactfully managed gear. I can also compete as a lv 30-49 in the same combinations of gear. If you are having trouble, it simply comes down to you I am sorry to say, many people, including myself, have and continue to perform excellently on level 10s, 30s, and 50s, in all combinations of gear. So long as you're not completely clueless, inexperienced, naive or simply ignorant or resistant to change the new bolster system has only benefits to offer you, regardless of your player status. (Casual, Hardcore)

Bump because this is STILL an obvious and crucial problem. Without adequate matchmaking, cross server function and at worst a clear separation/barrier for full on PUG and full on Premade groups PvP will eventually die. No amount of content updates can fix the horrendously bitter and player repelling experience that is Premade Vs Pug play. It needs to be phased out, I offer a quote to those whom argue that Premade Vs Pug holds any merit whatsoever besides effectively repelling it's players. :

This is seriously annoying and in a way game breaking. Unable to search for anything with only 2 numbers in it's name. Ex: Advanced Reflex Augment 22, Advanced Skill Augment 22, Reflex Armoring 27. I don't understand. The GTN was relatively stable, not perfect in fact no where near it but atleast was functioning, this change did absolutely nothing beneficial yet managed to break the system. Why, why did you bother, we did not need this, revert the change and focus on something meaningful and worthwhile: Server Transfers and Cross Realm Function, more adequate and frequent PvP class Balance Patches, Adequate Matchmaking system for Warzones.

To the top with you because this is still a game breaking problem. Keep it up if you want to repel the vast majority of your player base.

Hot fix us already w.t.f... We're hands down the worst Adv Class for Ranked play at the moment, we bring nothing crucial, tide turning, or game breaking for ANY Warzone like several other classes do in the form of top tier DPS, Top Tier heals, pulls, leaps, immunities, speed boosts, etc. We have NONE of these... Unless Patch 1.7 is within the next 2 weeks or so, we seriously need a hotfix or small patch, this is absolutely ridiculous the class is nothing short of dysfunctional.

Bump because we seriously need a proper matchmaking system. Anyone with a brain can admit the current system is not working. I group and solo queue often, the system repels the vast majority of the player base which happen to be PUG oriented casuals while catering to a severe minority, the more organized pre-mades. While I do think both sides deserve adequate attention, the answer is not to force grouping on everyone, we desperately need cross realm function to resuscitate Ranked for the Premades and adequate matchmaking when they happen to trickle down into Normals and also to keep games competitive instead of one sided, I have been spewing this for several months. If it doesn't happen soon we will indeed lose most of the PUG Minded casual people, which believe it or not compromise a much bigger portion of the player base than do any other classification of people. Losing the vast majority of any game's player base is bad for the game as a whole.

Indeed, bothers me as well, I honestly wonder what compels these people to do this and what exactly is going on in their empty skulls. I've also seen someone at 80-100% health take the Health Medpack when I am clearly going for it and am at 10-50% health. Honestly wish there was a blacklist option, never grouping you with players on said list, probably not feasible until cross realm function due to population and queue issues but a man can dream.