Premades ruin PvP

[Samcuu]

1 hour ago, Weswhitebore said:

You very much had an effect on your teammates, which is why people queuing under geared or without any knowledge got told to stop queuing and such,

Yeah don't think you understood my point, and I probably wasn't clear. I didn't enjoy solos because u got stuck with whoever the matchmaking put you with. It was a part time job in game to try and queue dodge ppl who were throwing ect, i sont like that randomness element. I played a lot more group ranked because it makes more sense to me to take on all comers with a hand picked team of my own choosing. I could live with the results win or lose. I was gold in season 2 in solos because I could heal and carry a match better but as the population dwindled and time went on the glaring issues with ranked solos became more apparent, especially as the average skill level of players has massively declined since the earlier seasons. 

[TrixxieTriss]

8 hours ago, Samcuu said:

My reasoning in saying that solo ranked was the worst thing to happen to swtor pvp is because I witnessed the death of pvp guilds and the need for them when 8 v 8 ranked was scrapped in favor of 4 v 4 death matches. The other contributing factor was allowing cross faction queueing. It took a lot of the rivalry out of pub/imp as well which was a motivating factor in guilds and guild groups. Once pvp guilds were gone there was no good place for ppl interested in pvp to turn for advice and be taught how to pvp. 

Most of my first PVP guild quit the game when they scrapped Ranked 8v8 😞

My second PVP guild ALL quit when BioWare shut down our APAC servers & merged us with the US west coast 🤬

My third PVP guild mostly quit when they dumped PVP comms & expertise in favour of farming PVE gear for PVP 🤦‍♀️

My fourth PVP guild ALL quit when BioWare moved the East Coast server to the West Coast with zero warning it was moving 😡

At this point I stopped joining guilds because I had enough of building up guilds & making new friends, only to have them ripped away by BioWares mistakes. That’s when I became a solo PvP player who rarely joins premades.

The cross faction queuing didn’t effect us. We actually liked it because we had mirror guilds in both factions. And it made little difference because people on our server, people would always swap to the winning faction & we’d end up with hours of Imp v Imp or Rep v Rep matches. Making it cross faction meant players could get faster pops. 

I do agree that when a lot of the PVP guilds left, community player skills dropped because there were less people teaching.

One of the biggest contributors to less training was the removal of pvp comms because it destroyed lowbie pvp participation where we used to train our newer Guildies.

What also contributed to reduced pvp skills was the dumbing down of the pve part of the game because new players didn’t even know what 50% of their abilities did & then they’d jump straight into max lvl pvp. 

BioWare have made some positive changes to the pvp eco system with 7.2. But they’ve also made some serious mistakes AGAIN that’s going to continue to bleed pvp players from the game instead of building it up like they hope.

1. Obviously removing ALL of ranked was a bad idea. Many great pvpers have left the game over that.

2. Adding 8 man premades is another big mistake & I’ve already outlined why in early posts. 

3. PvP lockout times for leaving matches that increase exponentially is crazy & creating multiple problems that are causing people to not pvp & encouraging new toxicity.

They are the Big 3 mistakes with 7.2 that  BioWare need to address. Although I can’t see them doing anything to binging ranked back, they can band-aid fix the other 2 issues really fast & easy if they choose too.

[TrixxieTriss]

4 hours ago, Samcuu said:

Yeah don't think you understood my point, and I probably wasn't clear. I didn't enjoy solos because u got stuck with whoever the matchmaking put you with. It was a part time job in game to try and queue dodge ppl who were throwing ect, i sont like that randomness element. I played a lot more group ranked because it makes more sense to me to take on all comers with a hand picked team of my own choosing. I could live with the results win or lose. I was gold in season 2 in solos because I could heal and carry a match better but as the population dwindled and time went on the glaring issues with ranked solos became more apparent, especially as the average skill level of players has massively declined since the earlier seasons. 

The problem wasn’t solos as much as it was BioWare not moderating them or monitoring matches.

This allowed toxicity to rise with people trolling, cheating & being overly toxic. And while that’s on them, the blame is BioWares because they created the safe space for that to proliferate. 

When solos first started, you didn’t need queue dodge to get away from people. The solo queue wasn’t the problem, it’s was BioWare.

[AwesomeTacoCat]

On 1/21/2023 at 4:58 PM, Samcuu said:

Again this is completely true in fact I've seen a bunch of premade players say in this and other threads how much they enjoy crushing bads in 8s. Again tho, u don't have to cry to the devs and ask them to take away the same advantages u can have as well. In fact it's entirely up to you, you have all the same tools these players have to queue against them and beat them. Trust me many of the premades u see running around are very beatable. There's a very small amount of premades that you'll never beat. An 8 man premade with a bunch of former ranked players u probably won't beat no matter at you do, but they aren't in queue 24/7. 

And to ur final point. They don't have an unfair advantage. If you make the decision to jump solo into a game mode where u know ppl are teaming up and in voice comms ect then that's on you. It's not like bioware is making ppl pay to premade or something. The same advantages are available to you, your decision to take advantage of them or not. Simple tbh. 

 

 

The problem is that premades are boring. Sure, I can team up with 3 other people solid pvpers and stomp casuals all day long, but it’s not fun. You win every match but que pops like 15 minutes apart and it’s ultimately boring. Solo q is way more interesting because sometimes you gotta try to carry some idiot and get somewhat close matches. It’s not that we can’t have the advantage of forming a premade it’s that we don’t want that advantage because it’s boring. 

[SentinalMasterWW]

I literally had non-stop premades this morning, I had to stop playing because all they did was pull and spam their CC's over and over to kill you. The funny thing was is that it was a ranked platinum player that was leading them, anytime I almost killed them I had the horde of horrors converge on me and unload their CC's so the ranked player could get ez kills.  This is why me and others stop playing PVP for the day, there is no fun to be had for the players who Q solo. 

I would make a post on how bioware needs to rework CC's and whitebar, as its completely ridiculous that some CC's don't break on DMG but others do, but perhaps another time. 

Anyways, the ranked player got like 79 kills as they relied on their premade, and everyone on that premade got like 30-40 kills each. 

Before people call it a "skill issue" being pulled and stunned over and over while the entire team converges on you is not a skill issue. Thing is they were all playing the meta classes, like Sin, VG, and Jug skank tanks. That is not fun to fight against, they clearly grouped that way to give them an advantage.

It's also why I don't Q arenas anymore, too many premades there as well, It's why I think that's the main reason Arena Q's are dead most of the time, and why People have to ask in chat for peeps to Q arena. 

The idea of playing with friends in a group sounds nice on paper, but SWTOR players abuse the system that bioware did in 7.2 to give them clear advantages in PVP.

 

[Nee-Elder]

4 hours ago, SentinalMasterWW said:

Before people call it a "skill issue" being pulled and stunned over and over while the entire team converges on you is not a skill issue.

Yep, happens to me 95% of the time as SOLO queue'ing Sage healer.

In Arenas it's even worse, cuz basically my options are:

• get bum-rush gank stun-locked killed by 3 enemy players within 1st seconds of match, which causes my team of randoms to scream "you suck!"
• get bum-rush ganked by 3 enemy players, but manage to break initial cc  and run/LOS/replenish just long enough to die slower, which causes my team of randoms to scream "YOU suck!"

Only hope is maybe when i get a somewhat competent tank w/ guard , plus dps'ers who can legit focus fire.

Then & only then do i get the chance to, you know, actually HEAL people.

In ESO, i play healer as well  and never in 10 years of that game do i ever get rek'd  as fast (nor as often) as i do in current SWTOR.

Edited January 28, 2023 by Nee-Elder
Reason: 3rd option is....get my own premade?

[Monhnich]

On 1/28/2023 at 9:38 AM, SentinalMasterWW said:

I literally had non-stop premades this morning, I had to stop playing because all they did was pull and spam their CC's over and over to kill you. The funny thing was is that it was a ranked platinum player that was leading them, anytime I almost killed them I had the horde of horrors converge on me and unload their CC's so the ranked player could get ez kills.  This is why me and others stop playing PVP for the day, there is no fun to be had for the players who Q solo. 

 

 

Haven't won an Arena match about a week now for the same reasons you just pointed. I know is preseason but wow! What's the point in Solo queueing when solo players are always facing premade composition.  Would like to see Devs remove Arenas completely, and just leave regular pvp. The rewards should be distributed into the story line. Or maybe is time to remove pvp completely from the game and implement does resources into the story, make it an extension of the story line. If a player complete Xs amount of story quest, they get those rewards they were in pvp. 

[DougTheNoob]

54 minutes ago, Monhnich said:

Haven't won an Arena match about a week now for the same reasons you just pointed. I know is preseason but wow! What's the point in Solo queueing when solo players are always facing premade composition.  Would like to see Devs remove Arenas completely, and just leave regular pvp. The rewards should be distributed into the story line. Or maybe is time to remove pvp completely from the game and implement does resources into the story, make it an extension of the story line. If a player complete Xs amount of story quest, they get those rewards they were in pvp. 

Theres no longer a pre season cos they have deleted ranked. And no,arenas are actually the only pure pvp mode we have,as warzones are kinda boring with pvers fighting to spam cap nodes while getting attacked by the enemies,and running from every fight they can,leaving the ppl that actually wants to pvp outnumbered against ,most of the times now,premades.

They dont need to delete neither wz or arena. They just need to make a separate q for premades.I'd even say they should make a separate  for premades with more than 2 players,cos 2 players playing together usually dont make so much difference in a match. The problem is the full premades with tanks,healers and meta dps coordinating attacks on solo pugs.

Edited January 29, 2023 by DougTheNoob

[ilubebi]

I quit two+ years ago because of this.

Mix gank comps with high ELO (on my end), and it becomes exhausting and hardly fun.

I just came back and I already see the same guilds doing the same thing. Two years, really?

Premades are clearly still a problem, and they will never not be a problem. There really shouldn't be any arguing about this; it's fact. As a solo player, being matched against and camped by a premade is not fun. If you argue this, then it's likely you're the premade.

What's worse is that I'm not even running 80s yet, I'm in 75 casual warzones leveling up. If they're already running around in the warzones at level 75, I can't imagine what it will be like at 80. Probably the exact same as it was before I left, unfortunately.

It's a bit discouraging, and really frustrating. The community has expressed its frustration over this for years. Minor changes have been made, sure, but nothing significant enough to alleviate the issue (enough to notice, anyway). It's on the first page of the forums... still.

Adding some type of incentive to win only exacerbates the problem. Why there hasn't been a queue for only premades of 3+ in 6+ years is a bit confusing.

Who cares if they wait an hour for a queue? If your only reason for queuing is to win -- and with a huge advantage -- then you can wait for that win. Let the rest of the community enjoy themselves. Period.

 

edit: For those saying “MMO, make friends.” That’s a great idea, but it doesn’t solve the problem. “Casual” generally means you aren’t devoting hours and hours to the game, and that you don’t have time to coordinate with 3 other people (and definitely not 7) consistently to form your own premade (as seems to be the suggestion from other premades). Wanting to log on for 4 hours a week and PVP without getting camped, and wanting to play solo, are completely valid. End of story.

No one needs to adjust their play style — not the premades, OR the solo players. What needs to happen, however, is some type of medium where both groups can actually enjoy themselves. Right now? ONE group is enjoying themselves a lot more. Queues for premades would solve the problem. Don’t want to wait for an equal composition to fight? Then fight against your friends in parties of two, or solo.

 

TLDR; This has been a problem for ages. Chances of it ever going away? Unlikely.

Edited January 30, 2023 by ilubebi
Added word.

[Beyrahl]

I feel like at this point they may as well try it. 
Matchmaking even in solo won't balance out players very well, it didn't do it well in solo ranked either. 
It'll have it's own problems. But hopefully "better" whatever that means. 

[masterloczek]

Ok for real, I dont see a problem here. If they want to, they can. Thats how the game works now and theres nothing to do with it. The general problem I see is on the other side, the 8 random team. If they were actually knowing what to do and how the game they play works, there wouldnt be any problem with crying about loosing a match. Why is the top premade 95% winratio so high? Its becouse the teams they are matching know nothing about what they are actually doing and have 0 knowledge in actual pvp.

[DougTheNoob]

U cant expect casuals(which are the majority of ppl in pvp nowdays) to have better pvp knowledge than older players,which usualy are the ones in premades. Dont get me wrong,I premade too with my friends,even tho I prefer to q solo most of the time cos I dont like super easy matches. I dont see any problem with ppl wanting to group with friends or the best players they know. The problem is to have a match with a full premade (now can be even bigger than 4 man) against solo q randoms. Just make a separate q,like solo ranked and group ranked was. Will that increase the pop time? sure it will,but at least the matches gonna be way better for pretty much everyone.

[darksidenerd]

It's getting to the point where a good team..or a team you go against that dominates and is made up of randoms, is called,"premades". 
Like.. Naw dude, we are just a bunch of solo'ers that communicate in OPS Chat...

[Jarbarian]

On 12/19/2022 at 6:31 PM, krackcommando said:

if you look at the rewards structure and, of course, the difficulty/easiness of solo vs. grp, I think it's pretty clear that BW wants you to "make some pvp freinds" or "make your own group." it's cool that you disagree with that. but it's pretty clear that the structure of pvp in 7.2 is designed to ENCOURAGE players to group up.

Well I dont care what BW thinks. I'm not here to make friends. Im here to pvp as a hobby/spare time thing. I don't even do PVE stuff unless it helps my PVP gear.

The more BW messes around and ticks off PVP players, the more that will quit playing.

[DougTheNoob]

16 hours ago, darksidenerd said:

It's getting to the point where a good team..or a team you go against that dominates and is made up of randoms, is called,"premades". 
Like.. Naw dude, we are just a bunch of solo'ers that communicate in OPS Chat...

I agree some ppl tend to call every good team a premade without knowing for sure if they are or not a premade. I get that a lot,and I dont premade fr since 7.0 ,playing only a few times with one of my friends,and most of the time solo. But thats not what we are discussing here. We are talking about the actual premades that go full comp against mostly solo randoms,which makes the game boring and predictable af,even more now with so many casuals and new players qing.

[Samcuu]

On 1/28/2023 at 10:26 AM, Nee-Elder said:

Only hope is maybe when i get a somewhat competent tank w/ guard , plus dps'ers who can legit focus fire.

Then & only then do i get the chance to, you know, actually HEAL people.

Kinda begs the question then as to why u wouldn't make friends with any of the tanks you deem semi competent and play how the game is intended. Solo healer is at a massive disadvantage because ur average player probably doesn't even realize ur healing and won't peel. Group with a tank and watch the game become a lot more fun especially if you make a friend. 

[Nee-Elder]

8 hours ago, Samcuu said:

Kinda begs the question then as to why u wouldn't make friends with any of the tanks you deem semi competent and play how the game is intended.

Better question is: Why do you assume i haven't ?

After 10+ years in this game, my 'friend list'  actually has plenty of  more than competent  TANKS  indeed.  ( including even some in my/our guild )

However, as you could've (and should've) assumed:  Those tank buddies aren't usually online (or available) at the exact time-window when i feel like PVP'ing.

So i have a choice to either wait or play solo.

Typically, i choose the latter, since unlike SWG , this SWTOR, while still very fun, is merely a themepark video-game full of mostly transients building toward nothing substantial other than more EA profit$.

Obviously, if i had like a squad of RL military types on-standby 24/7  to group with for PVP & NiM's as a perfectly balanced 'holy trinity'  tank/healer/dps  unit  the game would be easier.   But then i'd have completed 100% green done ALL achivements a long time ago....and never would've had much reason to login again.

Edited February 2, 2023 by Nee-Elder
Reason: syntax

[Bullyabass]

Premades are killing pvp. I know a frequent pvper who now barely bothers to log in because the matches are just tedious stompings of randoms by premades. I doubt they're the only one.

It's boring to be against the premade and boring to be on the same side as the premade.

I admit the "fun" of premades escapes me completely. I watch streamers with their guarding tank and healer just spamming their aoe rotation for match after match after match, running from any balanced fight because they're terrified of their damage numbers dropping. They might as well be parsing on target dummies.

Regular queue and solos only queue is the way to go.

[Otowi]

On 1/31/2023 at 8:43 AM, masterloczek said:

Ok for real, I dont see a problem here. If they want to, they can. Thats how the game works now and theres nothing to do with it. The general problem I see is on the other side, the 8 random team. If they were actually knowing what to do and how the game they play works, there wouldnt be any problem with crying about loosing a match. Why is the top premade 95% winratio so high? Its becouse the teams they are matching know nothing about what they are actually doing and have 0 knowledge in actual pvp.

Do you even listen to yourself here? Most randoms do not know PvP very well, and gets stomped by premades that know PvP mechanics inside and out, and often have a well balanced team.

I'm on the casual side, meaning I don't PvP much, but I get the basics. Knowing the basics and actually being good is a different matter. I know when to use my stun breaker, but that does not help much when I just end up stun locked after using it, again and again.

You are in essence blaming the randoms for not knowing "how the game works", when most are either new or are just learning the ropes, and end up against premades, and that's not a nice experience at all, which makes them quit PvP before they can learn.

Blaming the randoms for poor play is unsporting, and easy to do when yout sit in a premade. You may think it's boring to play against randoms, but this is what happens when BW did away with ranked, and having a bad matchmaker on top of that does not help the case either.

Edited February 4, 2023 by Otowi
Corrected a minor typo.

[VegaMist]

On 1/28/2023 at 10:26 AM, Nee-Elder said:

Yep, happens to me 95% of the time as SOLO queue'ing Sage healer.

In Arenas it's even worse, cuz basically my options are:

• get bum-rush gank stun-locked killed by 3 enemy players within 1st seconds of match, which causes my team of randoms to scream "you suck!"
• get bum-rush ganked by 3 enemy players, but manage to break initial cc  and run/LOS/replenish just long enough to die slower, which causes my team of randoms to scream "YOU suck!"

Only hope is maybe when i get a somewhat competent tank w/ guard , plus dps'ers who can legit focus fire.

Then & only then do i get the chance to, you know, actually HEAL people.

In ESO, i play healer as well  and never in 10 years of that game do i ever get rek'd  as fast (nor as often) as i do in current SWTOR.

A friend of mine who plays sage healer (and is genuinely good) hates arenas for this exact reason. It's almost funny when it's an extremely under-geared (<320) under-skilled player who also runs way out of range for any heals even being possible who does the blaming. So, I get what you are saying.

[AwesomeTacoCat]

53 minutes ago, VegaMist said:

A friend of mine who plays sage healer (and is genuinely good) hates arenas for this exact reason. It's almost funny when it's an extremely under-geared (<320) under-skilled player who also runs way out of range for any heals even being possible who does the blaming. So, I get what you are saying.

Iono I find it incredibly easy to carry as a sorc healer in arenas. 50% of times I’m matched against a healer who can’t do more than 12k ehps free casting. I have to have incredibly bad luck with the rest of my team to lose a match like that, so pretty easy to win a high percentage of games if you know why you’re doing. 

[VegaMist]

5 minutes ago, AwesomeTacoCat said:

Iono I find it incredibly easy to carry as a sorc healer in arenas. 50% of times I’m matched against a healer who can’t do more than 12k ehps free casting. I have to have incredibly bad luck with the rest of my team to lose a match like that, so pretty easy to win a high percentage of games if you know why you’re doing. 

Nobody was talking percentages or win-rates. Some people just have less tolerance for BS and healers end up on receiving end of such BS (regardless of their actual skill) more often than other classes. And then, we end up with fewer healers in the game since few are willing to deal with the BS that comes with playing the class. Warzones also get their fair share of BS-ers but their attacks (unlike in arenas) are rarely personal, so much easier to ignore.

[AwesomeTacoCat]

The number of people I run into pvping who think premades are ruining pvp has to be 100x the number who actually enjoy premades. Wild how incompetent the dev team is to still allow this. Maybe they might consider taking a poll? Iono probably don’t have the resources to set up a poll

[winpersec]

Got like 80% winrate on arenas during the day and I was in queue for 14 hours straight as I felt like I can have a day off every social activity once in a lifetime. There was literally one 3 man premade across the day that mattered.
I just don't understand this thread. Play smarter, pick good targets or heal better. And learn to kite.
You won't need any excuse like premades. It will be only "I sucked this match" or "I carried this match".

[ilubebi]

9 hours ago, winpersec said:

Got like 80% winrate on arenas during the day and I was in queue for 14 hours straight as I felt like I can have a day off every social activity once in a lifetime. There was literally one 3 man premade across the day that mattered.
I just don't understand this thread. Play smarter, pick good targets or heal better. And learn to kite.
You won't need any excuse like premades. It will be only "I sucked this match" or "I carried this match".

It's really great that you can carry teams and that your win-rate was high today! But I think you might be missing the point of this thread.

This thread isn't really about arenas; it's about premades as a whole, and their effect on the general PVP population. If you read the thread, which mostly mentions 4mans and 8mans running through PUGs in warzones, you may understand better. You can be the best player in the game, but you're not carrying an entire team in a warzone of 8 as a single, solo player. Especially not versus a separate team of organized individuals who are aligning their CC, target-swapping, and (likely) making voice calls to dictate all of these plays interchangeably. PUGs are at an infinite disadvantage when you consider the above. You can make chat calls all day for nodes, sure, but it's unlikely you will EVER coordinate enough as a PUG to comparatively counter a premade (even if, as a solo player, you're target-swapping, using CC, and separating tanks from their healers). I imagine that's why there's somewhat of an overall consensus that they need their own queue. 3+ players in a group should be separated from solo players.

Winning against premades does happen, you're right, but that's assuming RNG and matchmaking are in your favor entirely. That is also in hopes that you are paired with relatively geared players of equal skill level who know to mark, target, swap, CC, etc. However, with ELO the way that it is -- that's really unlikely. You will be paired with players who are exploring PVP, or super casuals. That's fine, but the point still stands: premades should be against premades.

As far as having their own queue, it doesn't make sense to me why anyone would argue against this. It doesn't disadvantage anyone. No one is missing out; no one has any type of "unfair advantage" in this situation. It literally pits premades against premades. The only reason I can think that anyone would argue this, is because they like running through unprepared players -- because there's no real challenge and it's an easy way to complete the PVP season.

 

On 2/1/2023 at 12:47 PM, Samcuu said:

 play how the game is intended.

So... you're telling him that the game was made to play as multiplayer only when there's literally solo content you can't do with anyone else?

You should be able to do solo PVP and not face a full premade that absolutely dominates match, after match, for literally (insert 6 pages of reasons here). I understand where you're coming from, but not everyone has time to coordinate matches with their friends, regardless of how full their friends list is. You shouldn't need "a friend" to enjoy the game by yourself. If this game was supposed to be multiplayer only, there would be no solo content.

 

On 1/31/2023 at 10:41 AM, darksidenerd said:

It's getting to the point where a good team..or a team you go against that dominates and is made up of randoms, is called,"premades". 
Like.. Naw dude, we are just a bunch of solo'ers that communicate in OPS Chat...

 

I honestly agree with you to a certain degree. This is sometimes the case, but I'd imagine that's less than 10% of the time. You can't justify a team composed of 8 (or even 4) people in the same guild in 85% of consecutive warzones as "just a bunch of solo'ers that communicate is OPS Chat..."

Edited February 5, 2023 by ilubebi