Premades ruin PvP

[HeatRacer]

I had a Voidstar match last night where my side ended up being made of 2 premades: my guild (4), and another guild (4). I thought it was going to be a steamroll, but we got embarrassed badly, as the opposing PUG team made it all the way to the end in like record speed. Not saying it's a common/regular occurrence, but just a reminder that being a guild or premade doesn't necessarily mean skill or coordination. Some, like mine, are just deathmatching it.

[TrixxieTriss]

On 1/18/2023 at 12:38 PM, Samcuu said:

And would also encourage ppl to win trade. 

What a waste of time for the losing team. As long as they are the same rewards as normal pvp, wintrading shouldn’t be an issue. And even if it happened, it wouldn’t hurt anyone else like wintrading in ranked could. 

[TrixxieTriss]

On 1/18/2023 at 2:16 PM, Dyne- said:

I'm patiently waiting for someone to propose a solution to the queue time issue (if separate queues were to be implemented) instead of just complaining that premades vs PUGs is unfair. Simply suggesting that the devs return to the old system, which was atrocious btw, isn't a realistic solution. We all know that it sucked.

If the intention of BioWare is to have semi competitive pvp that is reasonably balanced, then the solution is seperate queues with premades vs premades & pugs vs pugs,

If their only intention is to just make pvp pop as fast as possible for people who premade, then they keep it set it up like they have it now, which regular puts premades vs pugs. 

One setup will discourage new players & solo players from continuing playing pvp. While encouraging toxic behaviour. This will bleed more players from pvp & the game.

One setup will encourage new players & solo players to keep playing pvp. Which will grow pvp numbers back up. 

Care to guess which is which?

[Dyne-]

4 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

If the intention of BioWare is to have semi competitive pvp that is reasonably balanced, then the solution is seperate queues with premades vs premades & pugs vs pugs,

If their only intention is to just make pvp pop as fast as possible for people who premade, then they keep it set it up like they have it now, which regular puts premades vs pugs. 

One setup will discourage new players & solo players from continuing playing pvp. While encouraging toxic behaviour. This will bleed more players from pvp & the game.

One setup will encourage new players & solo players to keep playing pvp. Which will grow pvp numbers back up. 

Care to guess which is which?

Not really considering you'd have to omit a staggering amount of information simply to reason along these lines. Trixxie, your train of thought is based entirely on the assumptions that:

1) Premades will discourage new players and solo players from PvPing.

2) Premades encourage toxic behaviour.

3) The presence of one or both will result in a loss of players. Not just from PvP, but SWTOR.

4) The absence of premades will encourage new players and solo players to keep PvPing. You're even bold enough to claim this will grow the PvP population as a whole.

I'll offer you one counterexample. I'm a solo player. I have literally been in < 10 premades in the last 5 years. I'm in no danger of queueing less simply because premades are present. There are far too many SWTOR players for you to make this claim in the absence of any raw data on the matter.

I'm not even advocating for myself on this. I've taken my stance because there are people who enjoy playing with their friends / guildies. I don't think they should be relegated to a dead queue to appease the few who prefer to play solo, or the unimaginative who view this problem as one that can only be solved with a binary solution.

[Weswhitebore]

Like you're one to talk, you're not doing anything different than Trixxie by your own standard.

7 hours ago, Dyne- said:

1) Premades will discourage new players and solo players from PvPing.

2) Premades encourage toxic behaviour.

3) The presence of one or both will result in a loss of players. Not just from PvP, but SWTOR.

All three of these things are already prevalent and proven. These are not assumptions pulled out of thin air but observations made from the data presented, lots of which can be seen through player feedback in this entire forum and history of this game.

7 hours ago, Dyne- said:

There are far too many SWTOR players for you to make this claim in the absence of any raw data on the matter.

There's not too many SWTOR players who PVP to draw this conclusion. Based off polls which i'm sure @Nee-Elder actually has collected somewhere, most of this game is majorly PVE players with at least 30% or less being PVP. Hardcore Ranked PVPers being in at least the 1000+ from the last few seasons, many now disappearing like the Jedi after order 66 with Ranked being taken out of the game. Most people do not like PVP in general.  Them going against 8 man premades does not help this. This does not help the solo player experience either as you are essentially being forced to make your own, as Bioware is encouraging. Most people from DM server can likely attest to how miserable premades have made things.

 

8 hours ago, Dyne- said:

there are people who enjoy playing with their friends / guildies.

Of course there are, but a premade of 8 is unreasonable to unleash upon a random pug group, especially if they are in VC. The smartest thing they can do, is limit premades back to 4 for WZs and limit Arenas to 2 so people can still play with friends and they won't be terrorizing people anymore while getting quick pops.  Now if they want to try their hand at cross-server queuing and then match premades vs premades until they have a full group, then that will work too. I'm not saying it has to be 8 man ops group staying in queue until another full 8 man premade pops up, but that the match maker can take smaller premades and put them with the other premades, just to make a full match and queue of premades, making it still premade vs premade.  If they do that then a dead queue will not be of concern because literally everyone in some type of premade from each server are all in the same queue.

[Nee-Elder]

24 minutes ago, Weswhitebore said:

. Based off polls which i'm sure @Nee-Elder actually has collected somewhere,

Whoa whoa , why you dragging ME into this lol

And since when have i ever put any stock in forum polls ?

They're about as useful as the 'Suggestion Box' .

[Weswhitebore]

1 hour ago, Nee-Elder said:

Whoa whoa , why you dragging ME into this lol

And since when have i ever put any stock in forum polls ?

Weren't you the one like, who like 2 weeks ago was dropping polls from all the sources to Jombari, Jambarin, something like that (I can't remember how to spell his name for the life of me) that shows some figure of population representation being more PVE favored? Between the official forums, reddit, and etc. that's the closest we get to actual measurements unless Bioware decides to grave us with actual numbers.

 

I'm just trying to see if you still had them polls.

[Nee-Elder]

6 minutes ago, Weswhitebore said:

Weren't you the one like, who like 2 weeks ago was dropping polls from all the sources to Jombari, Jambarin, something like that

huh ?!

Not me dude.

Check my post-history and/or check your logs ( or memory ) .

*Although, i have speculated/guessed that more SWTOR people  like PVE  more than PVP.  But that's not exactly "breaking news"  lol (and certainly doesn't require Poll proof  )

Edited January 19, 2023 by Nee-Elder

[Samcuu]

4 hours ago, Weswhitebore said:

Weren't you the one like, who like 2 weeks ago was dropping polls from all the sources to Jombari, Jambarin, something like that (I can't remember how to spell his name for the life of me) that shows some figure of population representation being more PVE favored? Between the official forums, reddit, and etc. that's the closest we get to actual measurements unless Bioware decides to grave us with actual numbers.

 

I'm just trying to see if you still had them polls.

That was me. It's not very scientific whatsoever  but there's a swtor podcast that had a poll just last week that asked if you like the new pvp seasons. 70% of the ppl out of 500 ppl who voted (on twitter) said they'd not stepped foot in a wz. That supports other polls I've seen from Twitter and reddit showing close to that same percentage of the population don't participate in pvp at all. 

[ZUHFB]

My view on premades has changed in the meantime, I think premades should be allowed - duh, playing with friends is essential

BUT

I don't want to be the one against them, why would I bother? Sure I could tryhard and sweat to win maybe one round in arenas against them, but I just don't want to anymore. Its pathetic enough the premade would even be close to dying. They also usually play meta like lethality / madness, so its ever more cringe. And that is not enough, all the premades that are good like PA, Q-sync, clean etc. already have the pvp rewards, most don't care about the achievements or the weekly itself (not for the direct rewards, only for season goal) so all this tells me is that they are afraid of losing a game. Their egos just can't handle it 🤣 and that is why I don't like premades, I never liked teamranked neither - the best part about solo ranked was no premades and this is what made it the best pvp mode for me, I realized that now.

Another problem is that when I'm against a premade I can get people in my team I have a deep dislike for and because of that I am ignoring them, so not only am I forced to play against a premade I can't beat - I am also forced to play with people I do not like one bit?!

I now leave all arenas against a premade of people who are... good enough to win a 4v3. Which tbf, aren't a lot of premades, maybe two to five on DM. But why, why would anybody actually give them the satisfaction? Just leave, do dailies or w/e and come back once they're gone from /who.

Its just not fun to be against one of those teams, the 5man Bogan premade I can take, they don't bother me in the slightest. But those quad premades of semi competent ranked players, mixed with people I'd love to have a match against! But I can't, because it is just not fair and it is boring too.

I don't know how to fix this, or what devs could do, or if this even needs fixing! But I just cba to play against them anymore, I've never seen something more boring than teamranked, but this certainly is.

[Dyne-]

18 hours ago, Weswhitebore said:

Like you're one to talk, you're not doing anything different than Trixxie by your own standard.

Yea you’re way off base there shooter, but don’t worry I’ll help you out.

18 hours ago, Weswhitebore said:

All three of these things are already prevalent and proven. These are not assumptions pulled out of thin air but observations made from the data presented, lots of which can be seen through player feedback in this entire forum and history of this game.

What you’re alluding to is that a record of a discussion(s) exists; the contents of which is comprised of assertions that may or may not be true. The vast majority of these opinions amount to nothing more than anecdotal evidence at best; due to the fact that they are player accounts of particular events in game that very well may be biased, unreliable, or subjective given the fact that some players have a vested interest in the outcome of the discussion. I did not dismiss them arbitrarily. I dismissed them because:

1) It would be extremely difficult to validate whether or not one subjective player choice can reliably yield a similar result if a different player were subjected to the same conditions.

2) To reliably prove something is to critically analyze it individually and collectively. Ensuring accurate interpretation and an unbiased appraisal of the information within. It must survive logical scrutiny including evidence to the contrary. (see my very simple counterexample).

Her claims did not.

18 hours ago, Weswhitebore said:

There's not too many SWTOR players who PVP to draw this conclusion. Based off polls which i'm sure @Nee-Elder actually has collected somewhere, most of this game is majorly PVE players with at least 30% or less being PVP. Hardcore Ranked PVPers being in at least the 1000+ from the last few seasons, many now disappearing like the Jedi after order 66

***snip***

Your boy answered this already:

17 hours ago, Nee-Elder said:

Whoa whoa , why you dragging ME into this lol

And since when have i ever put any stock in forum polls ?

They're about as useful as the 'Suggestion Box' .

What I was implying was that there are far too many players of differing opinions, in regards to the topic of premades in PvP, for her to claim that they would ALL react to fighting premades in the same manner. (ragequitting the game).

The crux of the matter is this. If someone is going to claim that a situation (premades) encourages toxic behavior and inevitably leads to a loss of players in PvP and SWTOR as a whole, I’m going to ask them to show me the metrics that BioWare has used to determine this to be true. These metrics better have been compiled, tested, and refined to the point where the evidence therein can prove some type of correlation and withstand a simple counterclaim.

This is a bit of insight into my thought process. Now you no longer need to make a fool of yourself by assuming you know what my “standards” are. This is literally asking the bare minimum, and everyone is well within their rights to ask for clarification or refute a claim in the face of such egregious leaps in logic.

That being said, the rest of your post is great and worthy of discussion. Stick to that my dude. ✌

Edited January 20, 2023 by Dyne-

[TrixxieTriss]

2 hours ago, Dyne- said:

What I was implying was that there are far too many players of differing opinions, in regards to the topic of premades in PvP, for her to claim that they would ALL react to fighting premades in the same manner. (ragequitting the game).

Never said ALL players. I invite you to reread what I wrote. 

[Dyne-]

27 minutes ago, TrixxieTriss said:

Never said ALL players. I invite you to reread what I wrote. 

Pass.

That doesn't have the effect you were hoping for. Give it a few days and you'll figure out why lol.

[WoRei]

Matching random solo players with premade groups just shows Bioware's lack of understanding.
Instead of balanced games (matchmaking based on player ratings) there are totally meaningless 
games that you can't even exit without an endless ban.

I really don't know who Bioware is trying to please here? 
They can't seriously think that this is fun, can they? Nobody can be that stupid.

 

 

Edited January 20, 2023 by WoRei

[Samcuu]

25 minutes ago, WoRei said:

Matching random solo players with premade groups just shows Bioware's lack of understanding.
Instead of balanced games (matchmaking based on player ratings) there are totally meaningless 
games that you can't even exit without an endless ban.

I really don't know who Bioware is trying to please here? 
They can't seriously think that this is fun, can they? Nobody can be that stupid.

 

 

Playing in a premade is a ton of fun. If you don't do it then I can see why u might feel this way. I'll never agree that premades shouldn't exist but as a predominantly solo player myself I'm definitely sympathetic to the plight of the solo player.

More anectodatal evidence here, but I was in queue last night solo as usual and I happened to come against an 8 man premade. It was pretty rough ngl. I died a lot and ended up being like 4th in dmg by a wide margin. Of course we won the match because they were basically farming. The next match I found out that the 8 man premade I just faced,  turned out to be two 4 man's that happened to get placed on the same team (matchmaking issue). The next game they were on opposite teams, and one of those poor 4 man teams got farmed pretty hard. 

If that's an 8 man premade they are just gonna steamroll everything in sight as long as they want to queue, or until another 8 man premade forms (and even then the matchmaking is clearly broken as was illustrated in that first match so I wouldn't be surprised if those two 8 man teams didn't even go against eachother) As a 4 man premade the 2nd match was basically decided on which team had the better pugs. Before 7.0 even dropped I said the pvp would work fine as long as the matchmaking was tweaked and you could ensure you'd be getting as many fair matches as possible. That hasn't happened. 

In a perfect world, 8 man queues exist, matchmaking is better, and cross server queuing exists to match those teams against eachother as much as possible. Since that can't happen(right now but hopefully in the future) I'd definitely be okay meeting half way with the solo crowd and eliminating at least the 8 man premade. 4 man premades should exist but matchmaking needs to work better, that's the biggest thing that could be fixed in order to make a compromise between group and solo players imo. 

[Crazykidddd]

On 1/18/2023 at 12:03 AM, Samcuu said:

With this logic we don't need 8 or 4 man warzones. Just delete them and do all 1 v 1 death matches if you aren't interested in working in a team. 

Warzones are a team game. Why penalize the people who want to win who've done all they can in their power to have good results? Grouping with other good players, setting up proper comps to best function as a team, getting in voice comms to be able to coordinate on a superior level. It's a competitive game mode. This iS like saying that u want to ban the 3 point line from the NBA because teams have become too good at shooting 3s, instead of 5 v 5 let's just make it into a free throw competition lol.

Your response in no way addresses what I said, it just sounds like you want to hear yourself speak so it's ironic you talking about logic when there's none to be found by you.
I'll try again slower this time: Put premades against premades, that's not a penalty of any kind, it's a step in the right direction for both parties, premades aren't bored ganking pugs who die in 2.3 secs and solo q'ers aren't getting stunlocked in a 6v1 zerg on repeat.
Then make a separate q for people who are playing alone and want a fair matchup. 
Get it now? It's not about taking things away or dismissing coordination, it's about making matches fair which is something anyone would want regardless of which side of the balance they're on, whether it's to not bored or not get rofl stomped while being unable to move bcs you're stunlocked. 
 

Edited January 25, 2023 by Crazykidddd

[Crazykidddd]

On 1/18/2023 at 12:09 AM, Dyne- said:

Terrified at the prospect of a solution-oriented discussion? I'm not surprised.

While it's funny, this isn't a real solution if queue times are going to be so high that it will end up dead (like group ranked was). Limiting the ways that friends, groups, and guilds can play together in a game designed to be played together appears to be a non-starter for Bioware, and has been for over a decade.

I thought this was obvious, yet here you are.

My suggestion was in fact a solution oriented comment, as opposed to your nonsense.

I see there's no point commenting on these when it's all dim witted players who just desperately want their carries. 
If the prospect of having diff q's for solo players and premades bothers you then none of us can help you, there's something wrong with the way you think.
And all this is even disregarding the fact the devs have already tried making it this way but failed to make matchmaking perform it's function properly, however the idea has already been implemented, I'm just asking for it to actually work as intended instead of just taking longer to get a pop and the match going through anyways.

Edited January 20, 2023 by Crazykidddd

[WoRei]

4 hours ago, Samcuu said:

Playing in a premade is a ton of fun. If you don't do it then I can see why u might feel this way. I'll never agree that premades shouldn't exist but as a predominantly solo player myself I'm definitely sympathetic to the plight of the solo player.

I never said that premades should not exist - BUT groups premades should play against premades and solos against solos.

If the premade queue then never pops - well, bad luck

[Samcuu]

6 minutes ago, WoRei said:

I never said that premades should not exist - BUT groups premades should play against premades and solos against solos.

If the premade queue then never pops - well, bad luck

Well as of now premades get to play against pugs so, either form a premade or...well bad luck for you👍👍 

[WoRei]

1 minute ago, Samcuu said:

Well as of now premades get to play against pugs so, either form a premade or...well bad luck for you👍👍 

I will just get the one reward i want and leave pvp in swtor again - pvp is not good in swtor and bioware tend to make it more bad - so i dont care.

if they want to make pvp enjoyable they either make it fun for solo players or they put incredible rewards in the season.

[Samcuu]

50 minutes ago, WoRei said:

I will just get the one reward i want and leave pvp in swtor again - pvp is not good in swtor and bioware tend to make it more bad - so i dont care.

 

if they want to make pvp enjoyable they either make it fun for solo players or they put incredible rewards in the season.

 

 

Clearly u don't even enjoy pvp and ur on here trying to dictate how others should play and how the devs should handle it?? Lol honestly man, this is the kind of the monster they created forcing ppl into the queue for the rewards. Hope they listen to the ppl who've been pvp'ing for years. We know a lot more about it than you, no offense. 

[WoRei]

1 hour ago, Samcuu said:

Clearly u don't even enjoy pvp and ur on here trying to dictate how others should play and how the devs should handle it?? Lol honestly man, this is the kind of the monster they created forcing ppl into the queue for the rewards. Hope they listen to the ppl who've been pvp'ing for years. We know a lot more about it than you, no offense. 

I could enjoy pvp if i would not face premades 2 out of 3 games ... The way its implemented is just trash ...
I never get it why mmos are not able to implement working pvp modes ... maybe the developers should look at other games how this works (and thats clearly not putting new solo players against experienced premades lol

[Monhnich]

I wouldn't stress anything premade do. They play good when not cheating but it does not mean that if the opposing team also knows how to play then premade won't not get defeated.  They just like easy wins, and the only way to be consistent for them is to cheat. Otherwise, they'll have an even record X amount of defeat equals X number of wins.  In other words, they'll break even.

[TrixxieTriss]

3 hours ago, WoRei said:

If the premade queue then never pops - well, bad luck

That’s what the people arguing for premades are afraid of. 

For all their bluster about forming your own premade to counter them to the argument that this is an MMO & get some friends, their whole argument comes down to this one basic principle. They are scared it won’t pop.

If you split premades into a seperate queue, that premade queue might never pop or the pop would be a lot slower than the solo queue. Which means they get less games. It doesn’t matter wether  the system is fair or not, it’s about them not getting enough games as premade players.

Never forget that most premades aren’t up to fighting other organised premades. And human competitive nature is to always try & have an advantage. Which means there are people who premade with the main intention to mostly play against pugs so they have an advantage. 

If these premade players could only play other premades to make it more fair, they would stop premading & only play solos. That’s the part they won’t say out loud because it sinks their whole premade argument of getting friends & superior attitude of “git gud”.

I don’t really even need to argue this is the case because deep down we all know this is the real reason they don’t want seperate queues. 

But we also know there are those who will attack me for saying these quiet parts out loud. So I will provide a demonstrated example of why I’m right.

You only need to look at the history of the game. Before arena we had 8 man premades that could only play other premades. This queue died off quickly as soon as the “Alpha teams” joined the queue. It wasn’t as popular as BioWare planned. Yes there were some servers & some teams that played this exclusively. But eventually it was pulled from the game in favour of arena because of reasons (BioWare pvp mistake 1).

BioWare replaced it with ranked Arena split into 2 queues, Premade & solo because they knew it wasn’t fair to put premades against pugs in a competitive environment. But they ran into the same problem that as soon the “Alpha teams” joined the queue, they would dominate it all the time. Leaving only a couple of teams per server to play this format regularly. The majority of ranked players moved to solo ranked so they still had a chance of winning. Group Ranked pretty much died & never came back strong unless there were great rewards to play it. And even then, most of them just wintraded to get the rewards.

Most people arguing for premades to play solo pugs don’t want fair matches or even the perception of fair matches. They want an advantage to win & flex their superior “skillz” so they can tell others to “git gud” (the toxic attitude I mentioned in my earlier post).

Of course there are some who just want to play with their friends in a group socially. But usually these guys can’t beat dedicated premade players. So they need pugs to play against or they’d never win. 

The bottom line is premade players know they have an unfair advantage over pugs. Any that say they don’t are lying for their own benefit. Wether it’s so they can get faster pops or wether it’s to dominate other players. At the end of the day, they are scared a seperate premade queue will die because the best players always congregate together to form the best teams to dominate the queue. 

 

[Sappharan]

1 hour ago, TrixxieTriss said:

...why I’m right.

You only need to look at the history of the game. Before arena we had 8 man premades that could only play other premades. This queue died off quickly as soon as the “Alpha teams” joined the queue. It wasn’t as popular as BioWare planned. Yes there were some servers & some teams that played this exclusively. But eventually it was pulled from the game in favour of arena because of reasons (BioWare pvp mistake 1).

BioWare replaced it with ranked Arena split into 2 queues, Premade & solo because they knew it wasn’t fair to put premades against pugs in a competitive environment. But they ran into the same problem that as soon the “Alpha teams” joined the queue, they would dominate it all the time. Leaving only a couple of teams per server to play this format regularly. The majority of ranked players moved to solo ranked so they still had a chance of winning. Group Ranked pretty much died & never came back strong unless there were great rewards to play it. And even then, most of them just wintraded to get the rewards.

Most people arguing for premades to play solo pugs don’t want fair matches or even the perception of fair matches. They want an advantage to win & flex their superior “skillz” so they can tell others to “git gud” (the toxic attitude I mentioned in my earlier post).

That is a pretty cogent argument.  I am intrigued to read the sophistry that will no doubt follow.