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Premades ruin PvP


Screaming_Ziva

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In my experience, premades are no more a problem than they were before. Where I sit, my win rate is hovering right around 60 percent in arenas, and a little lower in warzones.  I've played a ton of matches. I que mostly solo, but will group if asked. Most of the time if I'm in a premade none of us are on voice and we just type in chat at the beginning of a round or something.  It's all about sample size for this kind of complaint. If you que a lot, you'll find premades are there but not really as impactful as one might suspect.  If you're basing the opinion on only a few matches then if you run into one multiple times then yeah it'll feel like its more impactful. The moral of the story is that if you want to complete the pvp season then you'll have to que a lot, and understand that losses will happen just like wins will. Expecting to win every match is the wrong attitude to hold. Just keep queing. 

And unfortunately, there is a huge learn to play portion of things. I don't say this to offend people, but it is there.  The way around this is to stay positive, keep trying to do better and take steps forward, not blast other people for calling it out for what it factually is. Everyone can always get better, and it can be a lot of fun to travel that path and actually see results. You'll start winning a lot more by just improving one's own play. 

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                MMO's by nature exist for and are directed at MULTIPLAYER. To take away the ability to group up with a substantial amount of players, friends, etc, would be to gravely hinder the entire purpose of this game. Good boats sail well and good MMOS do multiplayer well. Thus, the removal of premades would objectively make swtor less of a good MMO. Additionally, as has been said by many posters above, if you don't like premades because you lose, take it as an opportunity to improve. Even more importantly, as an opportunity to make some friends or grow closer to a guild community.  

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47 minutes ago, ObiWanSnuffles said:

                MMO's by nature exist for and are directed at MULTIPLAYER. To take away the ability to group up with a substantial amount of players, friends, etc, would be to gravely hinder the entire purpose of this game. Good boats sail well and good MMOS do multiplayer well. Thus, the removal of premades would objectively make swtor less of a good MMO. Additionally, as has been said by many posters above, if you don't like premades because you lose, take it as an opportunity to improve. Even more importantly, as an opportunity to make some friends or grow closer to a guild community.  

Or BioWare could just add a mechanism that allows premades to play premades & solo’s to play solo. You know, like they used to have for ranked because that’s the most fair in a pvp competitive environment 😉

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6 hours ago, ObiWanSnuffles said:

                MMO's by nature exist for and are directed at MULTIPLAYER. To take away the ability to group up with a substantial amount of players, friends, etc, would be to gravely hinder the entire purpose of this game. Good boats sail well and good MMOS do multiplayer well. Thus, the removal of premades would objectively make swtor less of a good MMO. Additionally, as has been said by many posters above, if you don't like premades because you lose, take it as an opportunity to improve. Even more importantly, as an opportunity to make some friends or grow closer to a guild community.  

 

It IS multiplayer when random people queue and get grouped up with other random people.  It also makes pvp more balanced and more people to enjoy it, and that would bring more people to pvp in general. But I guess that doesn't matter. People don't like fair competition anymore. Sadly that will lead to less people playing pvp, more people being afk and not even trying, because why bother: the unfair match against some premade will only last longer if the pug group fights back. But yeah, unbalanced groups  seem to be the current definition of "multiplayer" these days. 

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6 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

Or BioWare could just add a mechanism that allows premades to play premades & solo’s to play solo. You know, like they used to have for ranked because that’s the most fair in a pvp competitive environment 😉

Exactly, that's such a simple solution.

There is a reason premade and solo were separated for Ranked PvP. Premade vs PUG was never a fair fight when a premade group can not only voice chat they can synergize their builds.

Edited by illgot
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See, the devs had the right idea with the "PVP Challenges" button, which is basically what several people are asking for: a separate queue where big pre-formed groups go up against other big pre-formed groups. The problem is BioWare is doing jack all with this great idea.

If a system's already in place to have large groups go up against each other, then the devs should lean into that. Let 5+ stacks have their own queue, so solo and small group PVPers can do their own thing.

There's no smart justification for letting 8 people form an ops group against randos. If you need to stack the deck that hard to perform well against pugs, that is entirely a you problem and the game should not enable or incentivize that kind of play at other players' expense.

 

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21 minutes ago, HanceLikesHouses said:

See, the devs had the right idea with the "PVP Challenges" button, which is basically what several people are asking for: a separate queue where big pre-formed groups go up against other big pre-formed groups.

The problem is BioWare is doing jack all with this great idea.

Let's hope that changes soon though-->  https://forums.swtor.com/topic/926879-pvp-challenges-for-skirmish-and-guild-challenge-no-longer-functioning-bug-possibly-as-of-72-challenge-can-be-issued-queue-pops-but-nothing-happens-when-you-click-enter/?do=findComment&comment=9737454  ... maybe with  update 7.3  even .

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It was nice that they put those challenges in game, but why would anyone ever queue for those when they don't grant any rewards? It's a waste of time. Conversely if they do grant rewards ppl will abuse them. Mmos need to have premades, grouping with friends is how u play the game. Meeting in the middle and maybe getting rid of the 8 man premade for the traditional 4 man is the way to go for now until the matchmaking system improves and u get cross server queuing going. 
 
 
 
 
 
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5 hours ago, HanceLikesHouses said:

See, the devs had the right idea with the "PVP Challenges" button, which is basically what several people are asking for: a separate queue where big pre-formed groups go up against other big pre-formed groups. The problem is BioWare is doing jack all with this great idea.

If a system's already in place to have large groups go up against each other, then the devs should lean into that. Let 5+ stacks have their own queue, so solo and small group PVPers can do their own thing.

There's no smart justification for letting 8 people form an ops group against randos. If you need to stack the deck that hard to perform well against pugs, that is entirely a you problem and the game should not enable or incentivize that kind of play at other players' expense.

 

There’s also no rewards linked to using that system. So zero incentive beside bragging rights. If BioWare were to add rewards to a system like that & remove premades from the Pug queues, it would encourage guilds & premades to use it. 

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12 minutes ago, TrixxieTriss said:

There’s also no rewards linked to using that system. So zero incentive beside bragging rights. If BioWare were to add rewards to a system like that & remove premades from the Pug queues, it would encourage guilds & premades to use it. 

And would also encourage ppl to win trade. 

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50 minutes ago, Samcuu said:

And would also encourage ppl to win trade. 

True , so maybe make the  rewards just like  very basic  GUILD deco 'trophy' or vanilla stuff like that?

Or maybe some type of deco 'view terminal' whereby guilds could check their  historical records vs. all other guilds/groups they've challenged before?

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Just now, Nee-Elder said:

True , so maybe make the  rewards just like  very basic  GUILD deco 'trophy' or vanilla stuff like that?

Or maybe some type of deco 'view terminal' whereby guilds could check their  historical records vs. all other guilds/groups they've challenged before?

Needs to more than that. If you want an incentive, it needs to have a mission type rewards system & also be linked to the pvp season in some way.

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I don't want the queues separated. First off it's not feasible. Second it's not the right move for an mmo. However I do see that there's an issue with 8s running rough shod all over pugs (even tho I enjoy playing in and against an 8 man premade) maybe there should be a compromise. Maybe going back to the 4 man max on a group is the right thing. Still I'd prefer better matchmaking and CROSS SERVER QUEUING (I know I'm a broken record at this point lolol).

Edited by Samcuu
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1 minute ago, Samcuu said:

I don't want the queues separated. First off it's not feasible. Second it's not the right move for an mmo. However I do see that there's an issue with 8s running rough shod all over pugs (even tho I enjoy playing in and against an 8 man premade) maybe there should be a compromise. Maybe going back to the 4 man max on a group is the right thing. Still I'd prefer better matchmaking and CROSS SERVER QUEUING (I know I'm a broken record at this point lolol).

I'm patiently waiting for someone to propose a solution to the queue time issue (if separate queues were to be implemented) instead of just complaining that premades vs PUGs is unfair. Simply suggesting that the devs return to the old system, which was atrocious btw, isn't a realistic solution. We all know that it sucked.

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52 minutes ago, Crazykidddd said:

I have a simple solution for your q. Premades vs premades and solos vs solos as mentioned by anyone with two brain cells. 
Oh your premade q isn't popping? Drop the carries and q like a real player. 

With this logic we don't need 8 or 4 man warzones. Just delete them and do all 1 v 1 death matches if you aren't interested in working in a team. 

Warzones are a team game. Why penalize the people who want to win who've done all they can in their power to have good results? Grouping with other good players, setting up proper comps to best function as a team, getting in voice comms to be able to coordinate on a superior level. It's a competitive game mode. This iS like saying that u want to ban the 3 point line from the NBA because teams have become too good at shooting 3s, instead of 5 v 5 let's just make it into a free throw competition lol.

Edited by Samcuu
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1 hour ago, Crazykidddd said:

I have a simple solution for your q. Premades vs premades and solos vs solos as mentioned by anyone with two brain cells. 
Oh your premade q isn't popping? Drop the carries and q like a real player. 

Terrified at the prospect of a solution-oriented discussion? I'm not surprised.

While it's funny, this isn't a real solution if queue times are going to be so high that it will end up dead (like group ranked was). Limiting the ways that friends, groups, and guilds can play together in a game designed to be played together appears to be a non-starter for Bioware, and has been for over a decade.

I thought this was obvious, yet here you are.

Edited by Dyne-
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The solution is obvious. Make PVP solo only. Are you with a group of friends on discord? Trust me, it's even more fun when you are on opposing teams. What happens if there are like only 2 premades of 3 players in the que? It pops for none.

Forget all the "purpose of a multiplayer game", "the soul of grouping experience" BS... if you want more pops, make PVP solo ONLY.

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I made a post about it, but Premades exist to bully/harass other players. It takes the fun out of going against one and being in one. I've been on teams with premades and it makes matches way to one sided, it just becomes kill players over and over. 

There is no "But premades are good for the game!" there is zero evidence that supports that, in fact IMO, premades hurt the health of PVP, because premades cause people to stop playing PVP for the night, or players have to come back in a couple hours when the premade leaves. 

Premades are essentially "I have no skill in solo, can others please carry me." 

I think a group of two at maximum should be allowed to Q for Reg's, more than that throw them in Group Reg's, same for arenas. It's why I don't Q for Arena's much anymore, too many premades.

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18 hours ago, HanceLikesHouses said:

See, the devs had the right idea with the "PVP Challenges" button, which is basically what several people are asking for: a separate queue where big pre-formed groups go up against other big pre-formed groups. The problem is BioWare is doing jack all with this great idea.

It's hard to even offer credits to get people to do one of these even if it's for just screen shot purposes. It could be a great tool for content creation and practice.. 

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2 hours ago, SentinalMasterWW said:

Premades are essentially "I have no skill in solo, can others please carry me." 

I think a group of two at maximum should be allowed to Q for Reg's, more than that throw them in Group Reg's, same for arenas. It's why I don't Q for Arena's much anymore, too many premades.

I would beg to differ, premade vs premades are some of the only interesting games I get sometimes. 
Problem isn't just grouping but who groups, typically it's not exclusive to only good/bad players making the skill level of groups going head to head often a large gap. Same goes for arena and I totally see how its frustrating, I love to soloq at the same time but when you have a group queue on your own team versus another and that other team decides to single you out instead, while the group on your team is doing god knows what. It's not quite fun.

MM needs to factor in different metrics when making a match, for example a group with relatively low damage across the board probably shouldn't be going against the group with double to triple that groups average damage even if the win rates are similar. 
I know the whole point of MM is to prevent you from winning every single match if it can, but typically it's how a lot of solo queue players get punished if they're even moderately experienced. 

Also, 8man groups are an abomination. Put it back to 4 unless ranked 8v8 is coming back. Which it's likely not.
Then for Arena, really the only way to simulate old ranked is basically playing Arena like Group Ranked. Which is the most fun mode to play imo. Sadly not enough h/t groups queue for it, I would be completely ok if groups were automatically put into this queue.

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1 minute ago, Beyrahl said:

I would beg to differ, premade vs premades are some of the only interesting games I get sometimes.

i queue SOLO ( in warzones ) 100% of the time, so far, until i can put together my own team of guildmates & such.   And whenever i go against premades , they usually just toy with the 'pugs' for a bit until they decide it's time to win objectives/match.

i find it both funny and fun;  especially when i get lucky with a few kills-of-opportunity.   Plus i enjoy scouting how each premade uses tactics & formations, etc.

7 minutes ago, Beyrahl said:

Also, 8man groups are an abomination. Put it back to 4 unless ranked 8v8 is coming back. Which it's likely not.

i think the problem ( from BioWare's perspective )  is that they don't want to limit/punish  GROUPS of friends & guildmates  from being able to take advantage of being friendly & guilded. ( being this is still, technically, a  MMO & all )

However, i also think  upcoming 7.3 is gonna have a few tweaks & adjustments (with matchmaking and with season requirements) for to help alleviate some of these new PVP disparities.

10 minutes ago, Beyrahl said:

Then for Arena, really the only way to simulate old ranked is basically playing Arena like Group Ranked.

Yep, that ^ is basically what i just said in this other thread--> https://forums.swtor.com/topic/927036-72-era-highest-medals-and-stats-in-a-wz-arenas-thread/?do=findComment&comment=9738534

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On 1/15/2023 at 7:33 AM, Samcuu said:

You missed my point. It's not about easy victories it's about experienced players helping inexperienced players learn how to play their class and bring the average skill level up a few notches. Teaching a man how to fish instead of giving him a fish ect. Again nobody is interested in carrying bad players. I'd love to group with some players who might not be the most skilled, need some guidance, but are interested and have fun in pvp. The better u get the more fun it becomes. Queuing just to get the rewards will get old after a while. 

Doesn't matter if ur in a group if ur not good at pvp. I saw an 8 man guild premade the other night and my team of pugs 3 capped them in a civil war lol.  So yeah grouping just to group doesn't work...

I think I might have been there, I was just about to say the same thing. lol. I was in a full pug as well against a premade and it was an easy win.

I completely agree about the other point as well. I'm happy to help and teach, even to carry a bit if someone is trying and willing to listen. But I'm not going to solo queue every match with the goal of helping 7 players who don't want to learn to pvp and only want to click a button either. That's an uphill battle that gets old fast.

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