Premades ruin PvP

[Screaming_Ziva]

Been trying to finish 45 medals for the seasonal objective and it is absolutely ridiculous playing PvP against premades.  You see the same 5 or 6 people all moving and working as a team against a group of PUGs that are just all over the place.  I really don't see how Bioware thought the PvP changes would entice more people to play PvP when it's probably going to have the opposite effect.  Nobody wants to walk into WZs or Arenas just to get ganked over and over again.

Before people say "make some PvP friends" or "make your own group", I shouldn't have to.  Separate group and solo queues should have been implemented from the beginning and Bioware refusing to add them won't make PvP better any time soon.

[krackcommando]

13 minutes ago, Screaming_Ziva said:

Before people say "make some PvP friends" or "make your own group", I shouldn't have to.  Separate group and solo queues should have been implemented from the beginning and Bioware refusing to add them won't make PvP better any time soon.

if you look at the rewards structure and, of course, the difficulty/easiness of solo vs. grp, I think it's pretty clear that BW wants you to "make some pvp freinds" or "make your own group." it's cool that you disagree with that. but it's pretty clear that the structure of pvp in 7.2 is designed to ENCOURAGE players to group up.

[Raazmir]

2 hours ago, Screaming_Ziva said:

 

Before people say "make some PvP friends" or "make your own group", I shouldn't have to.  Separate group and solo queues should have been implemented from the beginning and Bioware refusing to add them won't make PvP better any time soon.

Yeah, you should, given the style of game this is.  Its an MMO,  the entire point is playing with other people.  

[SentinalMasterWW]

Okay with the launch of 7.2, Premades are through the roof, and its hurting the health of PVP. Premade's need their own Q, A lot of  solo players are willing to wait longer Q's if they don't have to go against a premade. A lot of solo players are trying to complete their seasons but are unable due to Constant Premade's. Let me address something real quick, Premade's sole purpose is to roll over solo and new players that's it. The idea of "well join a group than." is an invalid argument, Even with the changes 7.2 brought this game will never have the population to support multiple group PVP'ers, ESO and other MMO's have large enough Player counts that PVP is more balanced (ESO even has a massive worldspace dedicated to PVP with Cyrodil). Since the launch of 7.2 all endgame PVP has been nothing but premade's, My team went against a premade consisting of 4 sins, 2 Engi snipers, and two tanks. We only won this Hypergate round by keeping them busy on us and the fact we had some ranked players on our team but still, New players just joining will have no chance, The Premade just Spam's CC's and stun lock you, even breakers wont help as you just get ganged up on. 

Ranked had Team Ranked which kept groups from joining solo, I understand about win trading and all that etc, but mostly solo Q's meant you were on mostly even grounds. 

To Sum up, People who group up need to be sent to their own Q or be sent against another group Qing, It is unfair against us solo players who Q for Warzones/Arenas. This is hurting the PVP Season, People want to accomplish their goals, but Premade's keep preventing people from progressing. 

[Weswhitebore]

Agreeded

[Csjbo]

The OP states that SWTOR will never have the population to support multiple group PVP'ers, yet, wants SWTOR to put in a separate queue for group PVPers. I'm confused. The queues already prioritize groups to go against other groups. 

[Samcuu]

There's a very easy solution. Cross server queues and a better match making system. Still waiting for it to be implemented.

[slowdude]

48 minutes ago, Csjbo said:

The queues already prioritize groups to go against other groups. 

In a parallel world. In SWTOR the size and presence of a group has almost no effect on matchmaking. Either this algorithm does not exist, or there is a small time limit, after which it does not work. Otherwise, there would be no such threads, and players with premades of 5+ people would have been waiting for games for days.

Edited December 20, 2022 by slowdude

[Samcuu]

17 minutes ago, Samcuu said:

There's a very easy solution. Cross server queues and a better match making system. Still waiting for it to be implemented.

And to add to this, I'm a player who does like to play with his friends and even I think that an 8 man premade is a head scratching decision, a 4 man premade is plenty to control an 8 man match. 8 ppl on one team is overkill not even fun for the 8 man unless they match up against an equal team. 

[Csjbo]

1 hour ago, slowdude said:

In a parallel world. In SWTOR the size and presence of a group has almost no effect on matchmaking. Either this algorithm does not exist, or there is a small time limit, after which it does not work. Otherwise, there would be no such threads, and players with premades of 5+ people would have been waiting for games for days.

There are limits to the algorithm. One is time, they don't want to have groups waiting for half an hour for an unranked warzone match. The second is that the algorithm usually treats all groups as equal, meaning the algorithm sees the DPS duo-queue as the same as a 4-man trinity comp group. However, the algorithm does exist.  With all due respect, most of these threads exist because those players complaining about premades queue solo. and are ignorant of how the algorithm affects matchmaking. 

I understand this is anecdotal, but from my experience queueing PVP with friends, the queue almost always places my group against another group.

Edited December 20, 2022 by Csjbo

[teclado]

Looks like I'm at a 25% win rate solo queue in 16 games so far as a PT (both Pyro and AP combined).

I think people tend to cry "premades" a little too much, but it's still a legitimate problem. Doesn't matter how good you are, your W/L record in solo is going to be bad. Might be a little better if you play heals or skank tank, but as a lone dps you are going to have a bad time more often than not.

I don't really have the time or energy to make a group, and I don't want to feel obligated to stay and play. I just hope we don't see things devolve into a scenario where people feel they either have to play with their friends or not at all, and the queue dies that way.

[Raazmir]

2 hours ago, Samcuu said:

There's a very easy solution. Cross server queues and a better match making system. Still waiting for it to be implemented.

This will not and cannot ever happen and the excuse we were given was the handing off of the game engine from one group to another* during development rendered it impossible without basically rebuilding the game.

 

*The explanation was a lot more complicated than that but thats the gist. 

[krackcommando]

2 minutes ago, Raazmir said:

This will not and cannot ever happen and the excuse we were given was the handing off of the game engine from one group to another* during development rendered it impossible without basically rebuilding the game.

 

*The explanation was a lot more complicated than that but thats the gist. 

well...yeah. I mean...there's that. and then there's the fact that there aren't any servers left to merge. only two in NA, and the EU servers are language specific. no servers to x-over to.

Edited December 20, 2022 by krackcommando

[DougTheNoob]

They should just allow us to leave match without getting any block out then. When I'm playing solo and I see I'm going to fight against a premade ,and then check my team and its full of ungeared and newcomers to pvp,I feel its just a waste of time. Since devs had the "brilliant" idea that premades arent the problem,and allow them to join even as a 8man group against pugs,I feel they should at least give us the right to choose not to waste our game time with the boring and pointless games most of warzones has become. Surprisingly arenas has been better,but there are problems with the matchmaking too.

[Raazmir]

4 minutes ago, DougTheNoob said:

They should just allow us to leave match without getting any block out then. When I'm playing solo and I see I'm going to fight against a premade ,and then check my team and its full of ungeared and newcomers to pvp,I feel its just a waste of time. Since devs had the "brilliant" idea that premades arent the problem,and allow them to join even as a 8man group against pugs,I feel they should at least give us the right to choose not to waste our game time with the boring and pointless games most of warzones has become. Surprisingly arenas has been better,but there are problems with the matchmaking too.

 

I'm not sure there shouldn't be a disincentive to quitting a queue, but it should just be a flat 10 minute wait.  There's no need for the timeframes they've got right now if ranked isn't a thing. 

[sGroggy]

Had a 80% or so win ratio the other day. Today, it's down to 50% due to clueless pve people who literally or figuratively afk. It's absolutely infuriating to play like this. This is no longer fun to play. It makes me want to punch someone in the face. Then again, maybe I have some anger issues, who knows.

These people of course also have a right to play. But throw them all together then. Meaning we arrive again at the matchmaking issue.

[DougTheNoob]

2 hours ago, sGroggy said:

Had a 80% or so win ratio the other day. Today, it's down to 50% due to clueless pve people who literally or figuratively afk. It's absolutely infuriating to play like this. This is no longer fun to play. It makes me want to punch someone in the face. Then again, maybe I have some anger issues, who knows.

These people of course also have a right to play. But throw them all together then. Meaning we arrive again at the matchmaking issue.

Thats what happens when we have this system that give points even when we lose.Ppl dont even try to learn the basics,some just go afk cos they dont care about pvp,and want just the rewards. 

[Sundown]

2 hours ago, DougTheNoob said:

Thats what happens when we have this system that give points even when we lose.Ppl dont even try to learn the basics,some just go afk cos they dont care about pvp,and want just the rewards. 

There was (not sure if there still is) the same issue with GSF. People would suicide or sit idle, only few really put in the effort to get the hang of it. And even one afk person can ruin your experience. Some people just suck.

Unfortunately from my point of view the obvious conclusion to only reward the winning team would kill the mode. You could think about this in a premade group environment, but drawing teams at random and only rewarding the winners will create a toxic mess. At least in a game where this is just "one" mode and you work towards overarching goals like achievements, gear or even PVE things like companions.

[sGroggy]

8 hours ago, DougTheNoob said:

Thats what happens when we have this system that give points even when we lose.Ppl dont even try to learn the basics,some just go afk cos they dont care about pvp,and want just the rewards. 

I understand what you're saying, there may be truth in it in some cases. However I don't fully agree. Some people are not really afk, but they're so bad they may as well could be (that's what I meant with figuratively afk, which probably wasn't clear - my bad).

I can't leave these matches because of lockouts, the matchmaker is garbage. So you're stuck. In those cases I would like it to at least count toward daily/weekly so I'm not completely wasting my time.

Some players are so oblivious to anything I think even a loss not being rewarded would not be an incentive to improve. Or they are simply incapable of doing so, which again is fine, but there should be a proper matchmaker to bunch these people together.

I would rather not play, than play with a team in 280ir gear which, thinks it's a good idea to defend a node with 3 while losing, doesn't know how to use cc, thinks it's a good idea to run orbs instead of preventing cap when more beneficial, etc. etc..
 

Edited December 21, 2022 by sGroggy

[ZUHFB]

1 hour ago, sGroggy said:

Some people are not really afk, but they're so bad they may as well could be

change it to most

[Screaming_Ziva]

21 hours ago, Csjbo said:

The OP states that SWTOR will never have the population to support multiple group PVP'ers, yet, wants SWTOR to put in a separate queue for group PVPers. I'm confused. The queues already prioritize groups to go against other groups. 

I never said that.

Edited December 21, 2022 by Screaming_Ziva

[krackcommando]

13 hours ago, DougTheNoob said:

Thats what happens when we have this system that give points even when we lose.Ppl dont even try to learn the basics,some just go afk cos they dont care about pvp,and want just the rewards. 

giving half or a third of the reward via a loss isn't the problem at all. it's the least BW could do if they're going to force players to remain in the match through a spawn camp or holding onto the HB or refusal to cap the first door just so the dominant team can dps farm.

I think the core of your issue here is that players who don't want to be there at all are being "forced" into it via GS. yeah. they don't need to do every GS challenge. but who are we kidding here. it's the equivalent of a pve daily/weekly or (in this game) what accounts for cupcake/solo/SM end game and results in the space barbie bling that this game is structured around. so of course they're going to do it regardless of the fact that they don't want to be there.

Edited December 21, 2022 by krackcommando
via

[Stellarcrusade]

On 12/20/2022 at 11:36 AM, Csjbo said:

The OP states that SWTOR will never have the population to support multiple group PVP'ers, yet, wants SWTOR to put in a separate queue for group PVPers. I'm confused. The queues already prioritize groups to go against other groups. 

If things keep going like they are, there will be no players left, so agreed there will not be enough to support this.  But the idea is, if you separate the queues, thousands more players will be doing PvP. 

[RaithHarth]

The way I see it, solo pvp'ers should queue with another solo players, premades should have their own select option for queuing in.

[VegaMist]

I think if they limited premades to half-the-group max (meaning max 2 in 4vs4, and max 4 in 8vs8), it would solve most of the issues. (Premade of 4 in 8vs8 used to be the max pre-7.2 and it worked fine).