Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

[jollycynic]

I've felt like my ability to cast was off, but I had no clue why it was. This is enlightening and the issue at hand is flat out stupid design. Fluidity of control is one of the make or break points on the feel of playing a game, and its borked in this case.

[hoilandms]

Just thinking out loud here....

 

 

But can't they just speed up the animations?

 

 

2.5 seconds cast with a 3.0 seconds animation now becomes 2.5 sec cast and 2.5 animation?

 

 

In the future, as your character gets more powerful and you get some form of 'haste', your 2.5 sec cast and 2.5 sec animation now becomes...2.2 sec cast and 2.2 sec animation?

 

 

Wouldn't this be the most pleasing solution that makes the most sense?

 

 

It would be extremely fluid and you would get the feel that your character is actually getting more powerful as level and you cast things faster and you see your character animate those skills faster.

 

 

Is this even technically possible from a user/server standpoint? I have no clue....just an idea....

 

 

***yes I am sure it is WAY more complicated than just speeding up animations, but it would be a nice way to do things rather than just 'clipping' animations***

Edited December 29, 2011 by hoilandms

[Corwingeorge]

how can FPS games like Counter-Strike made in 2000 with all the servers hosted on PLAYER-owned servers back when dial-up was the norm, be more responsive than a monster 100million dollar game like this?

 

it's like responsiveness was dead last on their list of priorities.

[Unseenhands]

You identified a pretty big the issue here and i give you huge props for that.....however, this post is the most self indulgent crap i have ever read.....

 

I think the "wrap up" is especially appropriate. For a very long while (over 100 pages) this discussion was almost completely civil, interesting, and full of evidence and development. It has piqued many people's interest, on more than a troll or argument or qq level.

 

Xcore (and others) repeatedly stepped in to arguments that were threatening to disrupt the thread, and when it was all said and done, a lot of strong arguments were presented -- even by people who disagree that the problem is gamebreaking.

 

Anyway, this is one of the few forum discussions I've ever been in rapt attention to (though the latter half of this second thread seems to be a bit irritatingly confrontational) and I think part of what Xcore is acknowledging is that it was a sort of weird phenomenon for awhile that, apparently, has come to BW's eyes and will at least warrant a look in this particular problem's direction.

 

Xcore started it, and he deserves to have his final word to finish it.

 

Kudos. (Again)

[weezdajuice]

I've felt like my ability to cast was off, but I had no clue why it was. This is enlightening and the issue at hand is flat out stupid design. Fluidity of control is one of the make or break points on the feel of playing a game, and its borked in this case.

 

couldn't have said it better myself.

[Thaifun]

I completly agree with the OP on all points, and I hope that Bioware will look into this.

[Arkimor]

I love that this thread is always on the front page; let's keep it that way!

 

It doesn't mean Bioware will read it or even know about it, but it's still nice.

 

couldn't have said it better myself.

 

I'm quoting you because of your sig.

[Xcore]

You identified a pretty big the issue here and i give you huge props for that.....however, this post is the most self indulgent crap i have ever read.....

 

Sorry, I actually don't think of myself that highly... I guess I just come off that way. Its mostly everyone else who did the hard work to discuss the issue from Page 20 - 100 in the original thread.

 

As I said, that post was just a way for me to release the utter ****storm in my head from reading every single post in the past two threads on this subject.

[Lyssaacce]

This is absolutely true. You never have a very firm feel of where your character is in the game world, or of where he may be headed.

[Kabloosh]

If you want to experience weirdness with the system play a jedi knight of sith warrior. You'll notice in the 4th video that more often then not you end up with abilities off the GCD not working when you need or want them to forcing you to spam the ability until it works.

 

Mt assumption is the combat animations seem to be more tied with how abilities are fired off then we realized. BW said that they want the actual ability movements to make sense.

 

Another area you want to see where the system is all sluggish and doesn't work so hot. Just make a character that can go into cover. You'll feel how awkward things can happen and I think it has a lot to do with the animations. It likes for your character to finish whatever movement it is doing first before he/she jumps into cover which can really throw you off or get you into cover even if the GCD has been finished before you use your next ability.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Kabloosh

[rimmon]

I don't have much of a problem with the fact that it always shows the animations. That just slows combat down.

 

I do have a problem with spells not being cast because my attack doesn't land before it restarts the animation. When I pvp I spam the spell or ability I use because I want to cast it as soon as possible so it will land as soon as possible. What keeps happening is it never lands at all. It just keeps resetting the animation. This takes the fun out of pvp.

 

I'm not gonna sit there and hit my spell and make sure the animation is done before I hit the next one. I need to be able to rely on my character to cast the spells I tell him to cast when I tell him to do it. So I can pay attention to all the other things going on in combat around me, and react to them.

 

I don't so much mind the system of showing every animation, but I want it to work properly.

[rimmon]

Also, I play a sith warrior. It pretty much breaks pvp for me.

[Arkimor]

Sorry, I actually don't think of myself that highly... I guess I just come off that way. Its mostly everyone else who did the hard work to discuss the issue from Page 20 - 100 in the original thread.

 

As I said, that post was just a way for me to release the utter ****storm in my head from reading every single post in the past two threads on this subject.

 

He's off his rocker, your post was fine dude.

[Expositor]

From Reddit:

http://www.reddit.com/r/swtor/comments/nty9d/im_stephen_reid_senior_community_manager_for_star/

 

 

Q: Ability Delay. Have you guys discussed this internally, and if so, is there an ETA for a fix on this issue?

 

Hey! It has been discussed internally, and we'll talk about it publicly soon. It's not a simple issue so we don't want to issue a quick, off-the-cuff response.

 

Soon guys... soon.

[Tinkersw]

Original Poster: Thoughts and Reflections

 

 

This one is for me:

 

After hundreds and hundreds of pages, 2,500+ responses and 100,000+ views, I feel the need to gather my thoughts into one post. I believe this issue to be integral, crucial not just for SW:TOR but for the MMO Genre as a whole, I believe we may be sitting on the most well defined, naturally evolved understanding of this subject in one place. This is something special… and I thank all of you very much.

 

This has gotten bigger than SW:TOR for me now, I am passionately trying to raise this issue and awareness with Bioware because I believe in SW:TOR and I want to believe in Bioware. However, I hope that this goes beyond SW:TOR and Bioware and future developments take this subject into deep consideration so that we may finally, finally get away from WoW.

 

Believe it or not, I have undertaken the task of saving “every” single post from my OP all the way until the bitter end of this discussion to my computer in the hopes to save this collective, evolved and analysed “understanding and comprehension” of this enigmatic phenomenon that keeps WoW in its own league and Blizzard laughing at all these other companies, trying to emulate but never really understanding. I think the importance is not only on the answer or solution to the problem but rather, how we’ve come to understand the problem in the first place. I maintain, anyone can learn a lot from re-reading the entire thread. The words of the many posts analysing this certain, undefinable characteristic, that none can quite put their finger on is absolutely crucial to making better MMOs.

 

This post is on page “whatever” (I don’t even know yet until its posted!) and it may get lost to the newcomers posting at the end of the line but nonetheless, it is important first and foremost to me as a gamer (more specifically MMOer), customer of a certain product and generally passionate realist who simply wants to raise awareness for a better, more “responsive” future

 

Thank You all for the stimulating discussions, the support and the awareness you have brought to this topic.

 

 

This one is for YOU:

 

The one who has been with this topic fervently since first stumbling upon it, perhaps on Page 2 or Page 102. You, the one who feels as though “finally” the finger has been put on what until now was only a vague feeling of discomfort. You, the one who loves this genre, for your own reasons of competition and measuring yourself amongst hundreds and thousands of others around the world. You, the one who enjoys nothing more than the co-operative challenge of solving the dynamic puzzles in PvE content through teamwork, co-ordination, communication and dedication.

 

You the one who understands this uncomfortable feeling of not having complete control of all actions of your Avatar at all times. You, the one who does not accept mediocrity in Combat Mechanics and Character Responsiveness. The feeling of disconnected “sluggishness” that you perceive in every other MMO with the exception of the one you are trying to get away from!

 

All I can say to you is, don’t sit back, don’t give up… this form of entertainment (The MMO) is amazing and the evolution of it is important as well as “worth it”. Start here, and take this further, how far? However far you can or want. In-Game tickets, detailed explanations… keep analysing, understanding and research is the most important part and then share it with the developer of whichever game you’re going after or the community itself as we have done here.

 

A great example: by Tinkersw <--- <3

 

http://www.swtorstrategies.com/2011/12/ability-delay-character-responsiveness.html

 

Do this until finally “every” MMO developer starts with the foundation of “Responsive Combat” and moves on from there. Whatever you do, keep on fighting this cause…. because “you are right” and this is not an opinion or subjectivity… it is an objective, intelligent fact.

 

Lastly, thank you for participating and supporting the furthering of this difficult topic.

 

 

This one is for YOU:

 

The one who is not quite sure what the fuss is all about, the one who is baffled by the piping up of this obvious but seemingly vocal minority. You, the one who is enamoured with SW:TOR since you got to log on for the first time after all this wait! Now, perhaps in your lvl20s-30s, you happily cruise through the worlds, the missions and flashpoints, loving every minute you spend in this universe.

 

I feel for you, you go about your business of enjoying and having fun and you will never truly know what “could be” if this topic were addressed. I truly mean it when I say, “I hope SW:TOR is and will continue to bring you joy for years”.

 

However, I must add that I can only ask of you to be objective and truly divorce yourself from your love of SW:TOR and Bioware as well as your hatred for WoW and Blizzard and re-analyze this topic with the utmost critical thinking that you can muster.

 

There is something wrong here and everyone claiming it, these people piping up their concerns and attempting to raise this awareness are doing it for you and your benefit because the truth is that you will only benefit. It is absolutely ok to disagree with this statement. I just hope truly that one day, perhaps years from now at some other game somewhere you will realize what is being discussed here today and see all of this from a different perspective. At that point (if it comes), all of this will have been worth it, you too will be demanding more, demanding better connection between yourself and your Avatar.

 

Lastly, I would like you to at the very least, take serious the gravity of the topic. It is something that has eluded projects and companies that have invested hundreds of millions of dollars. It is the reason for failures of magnitudes hard to imagine. This is not easy to define, comprehend or discuss and it is ok for you to not be completely in tune with those yelling around you. I’d just like you to give it a try objectively, and don’t get discouraged if it doesn’t click right away.

 

 

This one is for YOU:

 

The one who is fervently and passionately opposed to the notion that there is any disconnect or unresponsive feeling at all! You, the one who comes into the discussion claiming to fix it by setting the “Queue Timer to 0.0”. You, the one who believes that this unresponsive gameplay design is actually a FEATURE of the game itself! Believing it to be a stance by Bioware to prevent “Button-Mashing” or “Bunny-Hopping” and exploiting! You, the one who believes that the unresponsive behavior of animations overriding UI feedback is a positive and a good thing! You, the one who claims to “adapt” to obvious gameplay deficiencies for fear of betraying your loyalty instead of showing your true passion by making said game better (objectively) and more successful for all involved.

 

To you dear sir/madam, I have nothing nice to say. With your actions, blinded by your support for a Game and Company and/or hatred for another, you are accomplishing nothing but the downfall of what you “believe” you love so dearly. Furthermore, you are impeding the betterment of the Genre as a whole, you are impeding the evolution of understanding, learning what makes a “better” game.

 

Lastly, you are the reason (if continuing), the real reason that WoW and Blizzard will reign supreme for as long as they please. You likely waited for years for SW:TOR yourself, only to be unable to see the forest for the trees.

 

The only hope I have is for you to snap out of it for lack of a better term, to lower your defenses as no-one is truly attacking you at all. If this is possible, then we would all only benefit and gain from having you and together we could overcome the stagnation currently in this Genre.

 

 

This one is for YOU: Bioware – Electronic Arts – LucasArts

 

This thread and more specifically this post is for me to large degree, freeing my thoughts and progression of thoughts over the past 2500+ replies. However, I “know” that this has not escaped you. I know that your eyes are scanning these very lines, right this moment.

 

Nothing but passion for SW:TOR has evoked my OP as well as this post. I still believe in you and that your hearts are in the right place, even without any acknowledgement I still want to believe. I know this is not an easy predicament for you, I can imagine how much is riding on this entire project for you.

 

What you need to know, is that every single person who has posted so very passionately in this very long and elaborate thread is behind you and still does believe in you. No-one wants to go back to WoW. However, your continued silence betrays this belief, trust and hope with each passing hour. I do recognize your Q&A response earlier. However, it would be very sensible to simply drop a line in this thread, a simiple -- "Hey, we're here... carry on". No matter what meetings you’ve had in regards to this thread and topic, do not miscalculate on this subject – I only hope that you have the wisdom to realize the gravity.

 

All the story you have laboured so hard over, all the animations that look so amazing, the musical score and SFX of top quality, the game systems and mechanics that make SW:TOR unique will all be undone by the Gameplay Responsiveness, that 0.5 seconds will undo 10,000+ hours of everything else. Most people will simply leave never being able to put their finger on why “it just felt clunky”…

 

I neither blame you nor spite you, in fact I truly hope that “if anything” at all, you can see and feel the passionate sincerity with which I and everyone supporting this thread/topic is attempting to help you deliver the BEST MMO of ALL Time.

 

 

Very lastly, I will mention to you and everyone that I have gone the next step of trying to “help” by contacting Bioware Austin via phone (long distance from Toronto Canada) only to find an automated response and an answering machine. However, I have left my concern, I have pointed you towards this thread and I have left my contact information in case you would extend the offer for more detailed dialogue and clarification/brainstorming and analysis.

 

 

 

This is all from me,

 

Thank YOU for reading and apologies for the lack of tl;dr…

 

I am your fangirl ..so well said so beautifully written.

Your passion actually brought a tear to my eye.

This is what every future MMO needs to read, as I am sure they will!

Great job Xcore and all the people that were able to show where this

problem of clunkiness comes from.

[Sonalan]

From Reddit:

http://www.reddit.com/r/swtor/comments/nty9d/im_stephen_reid_senior_community_manager_for_star/

 

 

Q: Ability Delay. Have you guys discussed this internally, and if so, is there an ETA for a fix on this issue?

 

Hey! It has been discussed internally, and we'll talk about it publicly soon. It's not a simple issue so we don't want to issue a quick, off-the-cuff response.

 

Soon guys... soon.

 

Now y couldn't they have said that in this thread, or the previous? That says something to me.

[Corwingeorge]

glad we gotta go to to reddit to get dev responses. ***

[Ryzerion]

I am your fangirl ..so well said so beautifully written.

Your passion actually brought a tear to my eye.

This is what every future MMO needs to read, as I am sure they will!

Great job Xcore and all the people that were able to show where this

problem of clunkiness comes from.

 

What's sad is that the future MMOs already got that right, I'm not even going to bring in the name but having tried it out last year it had it down packed on the pre alpha.

[kerie]

supporting this thread

[Tinkersw]

When I say Bioware, you say FIX IT!

 

Bioware!

 

Bioware!

 

Classic.....Now put yo hands in the air!

[jtype_sw]

glad we gotta go to to reddit to get dev responses. ***

 

This.

[Dizzyjd]

Now y couldn't they have said that in this thread, or the previous? That says something to me.

 

It doesn't say anything....honestly, what difference does it make where it got said. The point is apparently voices were heard, which was the end goal.....if the had put it in the thread I am guessing someone would have complained it should have gotten it's own thread...FFS relax, they responded...who cares about the vehicle used...

[aureliastarr]

The important fact is today on Reddit he said they were looking into it but couldn't say anything yet and that it was a pretty complicated issue...

 

That means we at least can now rule out them coming in and saying "Working as intended."

 

I think they WANT to make this fix. Whether they can or not is another matter.

[Sernon]

I have never seen a pebble be turned into a mountain before. Guess there is a first time for everything. So basically something is different from that pixie-land MMO, and that's horrible because it's possible to obsess over it. Can't say this has been an "issue" in any shape or form, but keep it going, I am sure created problems can be solved, by created solutions.

 

---

[Xcore]

I am your fangirl ..so well said so beautifully written.

Your passion actually brought a tear to my eye.

This is what every future MMO needs to read, as I am sure they will!

Great job Xcore and all the people that were able to show where this

problem of clunkiness comes from.

 

Thats really nice of you, thanks