PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

[Ulmius]

Right now, as the game is, devs can make it more challenging without giving players anything. Do you agree or disagree with that?

 

Nice deflection, you should run for office.

[Drewser]

I think you misunderstand. I was looking for an example of a game that didn't have logs or meters, but later added them, consequently ruining the community/game culture.

 

the closest thing that comes to mind is WoW. Which always had combat logs and meters.

 

and i'd attribute the decline in the community (the decline, be arguable in itself) to gained anonymity through cross server implements, and gear score.

 

 

edit; or if you could just name an MMO that released without combat logs or meters...lol

 

This was your quote, I bolded and underlined "Saying that combat logs will lead to an increase in undesirable behavior is a bold assumption and grounded in absolutely zero evidence."

 

I am pretty sure I understand it.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Drewser

[Drewser]

Nice deflection, you should run for office.

 

Umm, he went way off track after quoting me.

 

So I ask again, can the devs make content more difficult right now, or do they have to introduce live logs first?

 

Pretty simple question.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Drewser

[Stupiddrummer]

Right now, as the game is, devs can make it more challenging without giving players anything. Do you agree or disagree with that?

 

surely with a healthy relationship between devs and high end raiders, who can provide combat data, the devs are in a better position to fine tune the content the most extreme difficulty (the top end raiders) and tone it down from there.

 

I'm pretty sure that's what WoW did. Start from the ceiling and work down.

 

Not that I'm advocating impossible content, but i think it's more engaging to have players boggling their minds as to "WHY CANT WE BEAT THIS!" then to give them push over content that hardly requires gearing up.

 

basically, interaction between devs and the best raiders enables devs to fine-tune the numbers involved with the encounters.

[DarthKhaos]

Imagine H Rag with no Meters, no Combat log, No Addons, and no Macros. I'd venture a guess and call it unbeatable.

Haha so funny. The only thing in your list I see that would be fine to keep is Combat Log. Meters, no use except to create tunnel vision. Addons and macros ha. DBM tells you what ability and when it is going to happen. Talk about brainless. Same with a lot of other addons. Macros to chain multiple things together. Thought you guys wanted a challenge?

 

Personal Combat logs is all you need for YOU to improve. If your guild wants to collaborate data they can.

[Stupiddrummer]

This was your quote, I bolded and underlined "Saying that combat logs will lead to an increase in undesirable behavior is a bold assumption and grounded in absolutely zero evidence."

 

I am pretty sure I understand it.

 

right. When i say evidence, that means another game under the same circumstances.

 

Considering that adding combat logs and meters to a game has never once in the past (as far as i know, hence, why i asked for an example) been attributed to the degradation of the community/culture.

[Drewser]

surely with a healthy relationship between devs and high end raiders, who can provide combat data, the devs are in a better position to fine tune the content the most extreme difficulty (the top end raiders) and tone it down from there.

 

I'm pretty sure that's what WoW did. Start from the ceiling and work down.

 

Not that I'm advocating impossible content, but i think it's more engaging to have players boggling their minds as to "WHY CANT WE BEAT THIS!" then to give them push over content that hardly requires gearing up.

 

basically, interaction between devs and the best raiders enables devs to fine-tune the numbers involved with the encounters.

 

I'd like more difficult content as well and a slower leveling curve but that aside, the devs have all the metrics then need to ramp up difficulty right now.

 

They don't need to interact with "best raiders" as they already have that data available. They can easily see the mix of characters and abilities that are being used by groups clearing NM modes most efficiently. Conversely, they can also see a mix of the groups that are failing.

[Stupiddrummer]

Haha so funny. The only thing in your list I see that would be fine to keep is Combat Log. Meters, no use except to create tunnel vision. Addons and macros ha. DBM tells you what ability and when it is going to happen. Talk about brainless. Same with a lot of other addons. Macros to chain multiple things together. Thought you guys wanted a challenge?

 

Personal Combat logs is all you need for YOU to improve. If your guild wants to collaborate data they can.

 

tunnel vision is a terrible argument. Blame the player not the tool.

 

i used Recount in WoW on my druid to gauge my overhealing at the end of battles.

[Frostvein]

Right now, as the game is, devs can make it more challenging without giving players anything. Do you agree or disagree with that?

 

I believe I stated as much. I said they can't make it "Much harder"

[Stupiddrummer]

I'd like more difficult content as well and a slower leveling curve but that aside, the devs have all the metrics then need to ramp up difficulty right now.

 

They don't need to interact with "best raiders" as they already have that data available. They can easily see the mix of characters and abilities that are being used by groups clearing NM modes most efficiently. Conversely, they can also see a mix of the groups that are failing.

 

While they do have the data, it is much more efficient to out-source your data collection to the community. If every raider was able to look at their combat data from NM modes, that would be THAT many more people analyzing the fights. And bioware doesn't have to pay them...in fact, they pay Bioware (or EA...whatevs).

 

This is similar to how more bugs are spotted when games are released compared to being in Beta (or at least with this game, lol). Larger sample size helps increases the validity of the data and a larger group of data collectors helps with analysis.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Stupiddrummer

[Frostvein]

Haha so funny. The only thing in your list I see that would be fine to keep is Combat Log. Meters, no use except to create tunnel vision. Addons and macros ha. DBM tells you what ability and when it is going to happen. Talk about brainless. Same with a lot of other addons. Macros to chain multiple things together. Thought you guys wanted a challenge?

 

Personal Combat logs is all you need for YOU to improve. If your guild wants to collaborate data they can.

 

Sigh. We've gotten of track because you missed the point entirely, but I'll humor you anyway.

 

Somewhere south of 4% was the % of raiders actually who killed Heroic Rag. The amount of people who downloaded DBM? Much, much greater then 4%

 

If DBM trivializes content, and makes everything so brainless, then why didn't everyone who downloaded DBM kill Heroic Rag?

 

Macros in a correct iteration make the game more fluid and overcome the shortcomings of the standard UI, which in and of itself is supposed to be how you control your character who is an extension of you. This should be as smooth as possible, but due to technical restrictions and limitations, it can't be 100 percent perfect. Macros help bridge the gap between your character and how you control him.

 

Nobody sane wants them to automate combat. And, as I hate to burst your bubble, but people already have them. My G110 says Hi. So does Biowares officially licensed keyboard - http://store.razerzone.com/store/razerusa/en_US/pd/productID.241167600

 

I'd rather they are put in game so not everyone has to spend 70+ dollars to have something that has been a near staple of the genre since EQ1.

 

Meters only create tunnel vision for those too foolish to use them as intended. If you or someone has tunnel vision, it is the persons fault. Not the meter.

 

Any other misconceptions I can clear up for you?

 

 

I don't mind if you don't want these things because you think the game is better off without them, but I and the rest of the forums would appreciate it if you could keep your uneducated nonsense to yourself.

[Tronzax]

\Somewhere south of 4% was the % of raiders actually who killed Heroic Rag. The amount of people who downloaded DBM? Much, much greater then 4%

 

If DBM trivializes content, and makes everything so brainless, then why didn't everyone who downloaded DBM kill Heroic Rag?

.

 

Haven't you heard? Facts and logic have no place in this discussion. If you make a post like that people ignore it and act as if it was never said.

[mothear]

Haven't you heard? Facts and logic have no place in this discussion. If you make a post like that people ignore it and act as if it was never said.

 

Selective use of facts =/= logic. Blizzard have often said that they assume addons are being used when they create their raids/instances so they factor them in.

 

This would suggest to me, maybe not to you, that I (if I don't want to use addons) will be at a disadvantage against those who have the download and less likely to preform to your standard.

 

They are no different from downloading cheats from the internet.

[Stupiddrummer]

Selective use of facts =/= logic. Blizzard have often said that they assume addons are being used when they create their raids/instances so they factor them in.

 

This would suggest to me, maybe not to you, that I (if I don't want to use addons) will be at a disadvantage against those who have the download and less likely to preform to your standard.

 

They are no different from downloading cheats from the internet.

 

I don't want to call you a liar but i'd love to see where blizzard said that.

 

Regardless, factor in =/= require.

 

and they are VERY different from cheats. I think i just stepped on a troll landmine.

[Achromatis]

I vote "No", post-raid parsing is perfect.

[bhouse]

Incorrect. Players that played before and after live logs experienced the detrimental change.

 

Having played world of Warcraft for many many years I have to strongly disagree.

 

Combat logs did not bring out the awful behavior of people in PUGs in that game. The only thing added to that game that did bring out undesirable behavior in more people was the cross server group finder and the anonymity it gave players.

Before that came out, sure you had people who were mean and elitist but those players were that way anyways and would do the same judging without the logs and in fact this is already present in TOR. For the rest of the people they had server reputations to maintain and they weren't jerks even though they had tools such as recount.

 

So again, I say that this fear many of you people have of people becoming judgmental should be geared towards cross realm group finders and NOT live group wide combat logs. People don't magically become mean after being given an analysis tool, but it does happen to some when they become an anonymous player you will never see again.

[-Samhain-]

Your slanted, overheated, black and white view of the topic prevents you from seeing them.

 

This is not a topic absolutes and wrongs or rights. We don't need all the load words whipping people up. It's about popular preference, reduction of the frequency of bad behaviors (not their complete abolishment) and BioWare catering to their intended audience and play experience. Your overstated language is inaccurate to the situations at hand and only serves to confuse this much more nuanced issue with misleading "facts" supported and based purely on your opinion. I guess subtlety should not be expected by someone with your screen name.

 

The con is that the sort of public, real-time logs and displays being fruitlessly demanded would increase how much players would be caused to focus on metrics. Players preferring more metric-based paly would cause players not interested in metrics to address the stats when most of them would prefer not to.

 

Many such players have said they would confront others with the metrics and very likely, this would shift play more toward the numbers side of the spectrum which is counter to what most SWTOR players seem to want. (look at polls, posts and the sort of players raving about this game compared to those complaining about it or leaving it)

 

Indeed. Subtlety is something you certainly seem to have in spades. Never have so many words said so little. All of this is essentially to say "I have no argument to make, so instead I'll bust balls about your screen name." Seriously, who busts balls about screen names aside from children? If you want your posts to be taken seriously I'd suggest a more substantive argument than "your screen name is dumb."

 

In any case the point I was making was that, if taken to the logical extremes, what is out end result? This is why the language that I used was "black and white" as you call it because there are only two choices here: in-game meters, or no in-game meters. The issue is whether or not elitism will exist with them, but the point is that it already exists without them. Taken to it logical end the no-meters argument can create a culture of elitism just as easily as having meters. As others have said, the heightened elitism in WOW came from other implements such as gear-score and cross-server pugging. If we view a culture in which elitism is based upon ignorance such as arbitrary gear values then it diminishes the community more than having the elitism based upon factual data. The subtlety of this point seems to have been lost on you though, not surprising given your screen name (durrrrrrr).

 

Edit: Do you not find it the least bit ironic that by making judgments about someone based upon their screen name is the exact kind of elitism you claim to be against in-game?

Edited March 23, 2012 by -Samhain-

[Matte_Black]

Indeed. Subtlety is something you certainly seem to have in spades. Never have so many words said so little. All of this is essentially to say "I have no argument to make, so instead I'll bust balls about your screen name." Seriously, who busts balls about screen names aside from children? If you want your posts to be taken seriously I'd suggest a more substantive argument than "your screen name is dumb."

 

In any case the point I was making was that, if taken to the logical extremes, what is out end result? This is why the language that I used was "black and white" as you call it because there are only two choices here: in-game meters, or no in-game meters. The issue is whether or not elitism will exist with them, but the point is that it already exists without them. Taken to it logical end the no-meters argument can create a culture of elitism just as easily as having meters. As others have said, the heightened elitism in WOW came from other implements such as gear-score and cross-server pugging. If we view a culture in which elitism is based upon ignorance such as arbitrary gear values then it diminishes the community more than having the elitism based upon factual data. The subtlety of this point seems to have been lost on you though, not surprising given your screen name (durrrrrrr).

 

Edit: Do you not find it the least bit ironic that by making judgments about someone based upon their screen name is the exact kind of elitism you claim to be against in-game?

 

The focus on names was little more than a side jest which seems to have been lost in the reading. Take it as sarcasm when Matte_Black calls you on your name about viewing things in black and white. The main point is your "logical extremes" take the discussion beyond the bounds of where this much more nuanced issue lies.

Edited March 24, 2012 by Matte_Black

[wifeaggro]

Meters dont make A holes . A Holes make themselves. combat logs are very usefull for theory crafting performance tweaking . Spec experimentation and rotation adjustments. But then again every damn thing is on an enrage timer so its pretty much a given they will be sued for adjusting the DPS.

[Loendar]

Meters dont make A holes . A Holes make themselves. combat logs are very usefull for theory crafting performance tweaking . Spec experimentation and rotation adjustments. But then again every damn thing is on an enrage timer so its pretty much a given they will be sued for adjusting the DPS.

 

The over-riding point about jerks and combat logs isn't that they don't exist without combat logs it's that combat logs give the 'stealth' jerks that might not currently speak up something to point at and voice their opinion. This increases the number of vocal jerks that might not otherwise impact the game.

 

Further, you are getting combat logs in 1.2 anyway - just not in a manner that allows immediate in-game analysis. And even THAT is being somewhat diluted by people making overlay parsers and BW saying they will dump the log to disk more regularly. So you will be able to do all the theory crafting and spec analysis you want. But let's face it...what a lot of the pro log people REALLY want is to be able to judge their fellow players as this never ending thread has reinforced in spades. So, no, you won't be able to judge MY spec or theory craft me out of a group with these logs.

[Matte_Black]

Meters dont make A holes . A Holes make themselves. combat logs are very usefull for theory crafting performance tweaking . Spec experimentation and rotation adjustments. But then again every damn thing is on an enrage timer so its pretty much a given they will be sued for adjusting the DPS.

 

They exist everywhere in life, it doesn't mean I'll be handing my personal records to anyone who wants them.

[DarthKhaos]

They exist everywhere in life, it doesn't mean I'll be handing my personal records to anyone who wants them.

Good point. Why should I readily give up my information to any and everybody?

[crimsonsglory]

your post didn't get a lot of traction because it is so right that no one could be bothered to try to argue it.

 

Agree. The mentality,view and logic of those anti meters posters really bothers me.

[crimsonsglory]

Good point. Why should I readily give up my information to any and everybody?

 

Good point. They should remove the inspect feature too. You shouldn't see what gears I'm wearing, les I be judge by you.

Edited March 24, 2012 by crimsonsglory

[Esproc]

Good point. They should remove the inspect feature too. You shouldn't see what gears I'm wearing, les I be judge by you.

 

Actualllllly.

 

They could have it as Inspect only if you allow that other player to in inspect you.

 

Normally, I've had polite people that ask me first if they can inspect one of my characters. Not to say that others are not just doing so, may they wonder where I get some items though

 

 

NO to sharing my meter, you're not worthy, and I hate to make people QQ.

Edited March 24, 2012 by Esproc