I wasn't commenting on whether combat logs existed in EQ1 - I was just responding to the post I quoted explaining 'raids' to me by indicating that I was well-versed in raiding. My initial guild in EQ1 that I ran sounds very similar to yours, fewer players trying to do more stuff... the last few years I played that game I moved to a more focused raiding guild. (Order of the Open Hand/Celestial Navigators - Vazelle)

I appreciate you taking the time to respond in an intelligent and constructive manner. I am well versed in raiding and what it entails... Ive been raiding since EQ1. I think we just disagree on what is required to make and complete hard encounters. They become inherently less difficult when you expose everything that is happening through a log, IMHO. We will simply have to agree to disagree.

Or - you can go 'old school' and simply figure it out based on the visual/audio cues given and information presented (which is how BW has stated they want their encounters to work). Now, I profess, they may not being doing a good job of presenting those things right now. I don't have a high lvl toon on the PTS to test them and until they do character copies I won't but that IS their stated position. I honestly don't understand the WoW player base mentality (and make no mistake, that is where the bulk of this is coming from) that it is MORE fun to 'figure out' (used loosely) and encounter by looking through a log of the entire thing than it is in working with your teammates, finding out what they were doing and what THEY think is happening and working out a strategy to try based on their input. Is it frustrating not having everything handed to you? Probably. But it is A LOT more rewarding actually figuring out the encounter yourself and what does/doesn't work than having the numbers handed to you. Any sense of accomplishment you feel because you are able to read a log is misplaced/unfounded IMHO. Grats - you were given all the information, can read and crunch numbers... what an asset to the raiding force you are. Once they start requiring combat logs to complete their content they start down the very slippery slope of needing more and more information to compete. They are better off doing what they state their design goal is than caving to the 'more logs' crew.

It's clearly impossible now without extensive logs. Everyone clearing HM/NM currently are using voodoo.

As an 'anti' log person I would have no problem with the option to enable a full real-time log in HM/NM raids only. It is something that would give you something you feel you need to progress (arguments of ACTUALLY needing them to progress aside) and not harm those that aren't doing that level of content. The reality of the situation is that once they are implemented at the tier the stage is set for the cries of "Well - you already let me see it in HM/NM Ops ... really all Ops should have them" followed by "Well - HM FP's are really causing my group to suffer and I can't tell why. The technology exists in-game already.. why not just turn it on for HM FP's?", all the way on down until it exists at all tiers.

Excellent. You will be able to do all of that 'personal growth' stuff with the logs that are being provided in 1.2. You don't need access to my information (or real-time) in order to analyze the stuff you are talking about and, again, you are getting a log for analysis in 1.2. As for the sports analogy - professional sports, as someone else mentioned, have those stats tracked for all the reasons you mentioned. SWTOR isn't a professional sport no matter how much you are and others would like to turn it into one. Once BW starts paying me to raid and play their game we can start having drafts, etc. - until that time please kindly keep this mentality far away from the game.

Training dummy is coming - you will be able to do just that.

The over-riding point about jerks and combat logs isn't that they don't exist without combat logs it's that combat logs give the 'stealth' jerks that might not currently speak up something to point at and voice their opinion. This increases the number of vocal jerks that might not otherwise impact the game. Further, you are getting combat logs in 1.2 anyway - just not in a manner that allows immediate in-game analysis. And even THAT is being somewhat diluted by people making overlay parsers and BW saying they will dump the log to disk more regularly. So you will be able to do all the theory crafting and spec analysis you want. But let's face it...what a lot of the pro log people REALLY want is to be able to judge their fellow players as this never ending thread has reinforced in spades. So, no, you won't be able to judge MY spec or theory craft me out of a group with these logs.

If this is the case then WoW's combat logs are woefully inefficient. I run logs in EQ2 100% of the time - they are always on for me. Through groups, raids, etc. My log which covers 2/19/12 thru 2/26/12 - raiding three nights a week, counting all my groups, etc. is a whopping 85MB. And that includes EVERYTHING that happens - all conversations, spells cast, combat arts used AND everyone else that does those things around me. I can't even begin to imagine why their logs are that size - they would have to be writing stuff in there that is purely taking up space. All I can say is Wow... pun intended.

That is indeed possible. However, when commenting on a thread, especially one that is on its third or fourth iteration, I feel it is incumbent on the individual to at least be informed on the topic - so that is how I approach anyone that responds on the thread... that they at a minimum understand the issue.

Thought - in their defense - from my personal perspective I don't really want the player base making the kinds of design decisions you are mentioning here. The suggestions about colors and relationships are valid things for the community to comment on and request. Unless a skill/stat/mechanic is inherently broken I don't really want you or anyone deciding how the underlying game should be. Their job is the make (and fix) the game - your only requirement should be to play and enjoy the game.

Actually - the jury is still out on whether they are just for you or for your group. It seems we have dueling Dev responses on that topic (one from the Ten Ton Hammer interview and one from the Guild Summit). As for when they are coming out - I 'thought' it was supposed to be part of the 1.2 update which is scheduled for early April - but I could be wrong on that.

Other than they ARE giving you a combat log which means you should remove your tinfoil hat.

Well - not in that way specifically. A lot of the posts have indicated that they want to use it to compete with their friends and/or others in the groups. That is essentially what is being referred to here.

I suppose we can argue semantics - but you should be able to place the words within the context of the surrounding sentences without my help. But... okay... Is non-falsifiable the same as provable? I like that word... I shall steal it. But there are certainly 'silent jerks' in the world - it doesn't really need to be non-falsified. ;p

No - they don't. Paragraph one the important word is 'cause' - I bolded it for for you. Paragraph two 'allow' and the basic concept being agreement that they are already jerks without the log (thus not caused - see paragraph one) and that it would help some of those pre-existing jerks to speak up when they wouldn't otherwise (still not 'causing' them to BE jerks - as they already are). It is important to both read AND understand what is being said if you are going to make a claim like you have.

I think you have made the right decision. It is clear that this game isn't catering to your play style and likely won't in the near future - it would be silly to continue to support it in the hopes that someday it might. With that said - I don't really think it was necessary to continue past your first few lines into attacks on the rest of us. There is nothing about this conversation that has anything to do with 'fanboyism' and reading the thread(s) would make that pretty clear. As for your last paragraph - if a lower overall population means that I won't have to deal with a higher percentage of people that think the game is an elaborate math equation to be solved (and once solved only approached in one specific way per character type: same spec, gear, etc) then I'm all for it. It is no secret that in most games, and probably a much higher percentage in this one given the target audience, that the truly hard-core/min max crowd is a tiny percentage. Unfortunately, that tiny percentage tends to be the most vocal and often gets a lot more developer resources than their base probably deserves. Now, I'm aware that I'm about to get inundated with the 'prove it' police and I haven't taken the time to track down statistics but I still feel pretty confident in the statement. In a nutshell - there are more casuals than there are hard-core. Yes, you may all move on but that doesn't actually mean the community will be harmed by it... some may argue it will prosper.

I don't think anyone is saying (or even implying) that combat logs cause people to be jerks other than the pro- people when they are trying to speak on behalf of the anti- people. What IS being said is that combat logs provide an additional avenue to allow people to be jerks. Additionally, some people that are jerks but wouldn't say anything in the current game will suddenly have 'hard numbers' to support their abusive behavior thereby causing MORE people to be jerks than there would be otherwise. Again - this isn't really something new or restricted to MMO's (there are jerks all over) - but giving them tools to support their jerky behavior is purely a MMO thing and something that Bioware is obviously cognizant of.

Or - conversely - it could be that they have been required to download and install it by their guild. OR - maybe they realize that the game has become some skewed towards the min/max community and such that it has become a mandatory addition. I don't play WoW - but I'm playing devil's advocate to point out that there are other reasons it could be so popular.

Speaking of baseless claims.... The pro-people keep trying to say that the anti- people are anti partially because they are too stupid to know what the discussion is about (now granted they haven't actually said they are too stupid but given that you keep saying that over and over even though it is factually incorrect would imply that you think they are). I use a COMBAT LOG every other day in EQ2. I'm well-versed in what it is and there isn't a DPS meter in that game at all. I know what they are, I understand how they work, I know how they can be important AND I know what they do to a community. Step off your high horse and realize that informed individuals are also against these things. As for the continued assertion that everyone that has commented about people abusing other people with meters is making it up, etc. If any of you pro- people ACTUALLY believe that it isn't happening you are ill-formed, purposely ignoring it or clueless. Maybe a combination of all of them. Even if you haven't experienced it (and if you are a high-end raider that chance that you haven't seen someone called to task for not pulling their weight is so close to zero as to be non-existent) you have certainly heard about it. Realistically - ANYONE on this thread that claims that it isn't happening in MMO's on a daily basis is so far removed from the reality of MMO's and social environments that their opinion on this subject so be immediately be rendered moot. It means you lack basic observation skills.

Ok - but the essay would seem to indicate that I'm going to get the same performance out of either person. To me, that's a wash - so whomever is available would be able to go in my world. If both are available - it would be whomever responds first to the open slot. Again - why would it matter in the presented scenario - they are both bringing the exact same everything but gear. And, without any additional information being presented in the scenario, it is just as likely that the person in lower gear is excelling as it is that the person in higher tier gear is playing poorly.

Whichever one is available when I'm next running the FP? Why wouldn't I take either one?

This really is confusing to you? PvP is inherently competitive with other players... the PvE content is NOT inherently competitive with other people unless you and your crew decide to make it so. PVE content (Flashpoints and OPs) have you competing against computer controlled mobs and situations - there is no need for a 'leaderboard' in that environment - you either win or you don't. It is the 'super elite' as Bioware calls them that want to turn that into a competition with other players as well when it isn't meant to be. And they have made it abundantly clear in their statements that they are concerned about the social aspect of their game and how people treat each other, so they are coloring all of their decisions with the community in mind. I, personally, thank them for that stance.

Of course - this comment can be applied to roughly 95% of all forums postings.. on any MMO site. ;p

Thus the confusion. We'll have to wait for implementation or a Dev to pop by and explain. I'm betting that we will be waiting for implementation though to actually know.