PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

[MasterKayote]

The high end pushes the game forward and makes it relevant to the gamer community as a whole.

 

Oh really?

 

That doesnt make any sense to me what so ever.

 

Youre saying its the "high end", not the devs, who push the game forward? So without the "high end" the devs would just sit back holding off new content from us until they felt like it? Somehow I doubt that.

 

And whats all this about making things relevant to the gamer community? I dont get it ...

[Matte_Black]

Somehow dps meter seems to be frightning some people, i don't understand why, they are tools to help you.

 

I place them on the very same level as your HP bar, your energy bar, or your buff bar, they give you information about you, your group and the boss.

 

Can you imagine a boss without a HP bar, you have no idea what life left on the boss, then he suddenly drop dead, but you didn't see it coming.

 

Somehow, HP bar are widely accepted among player, while DPS/HPS/TPS bar aren't.

 

Buff bar is widely accepted in the community, but seeing who go hit by the cleave or the fire on the ground, people don't wont to know.

 

I don't get it

 

If you go back to some of the Guild Summit comments, BioWare talks alot about displaying combat information in more cinematic ways. Visual effects as opposed to buff/debuff icons. There direction seems to be toward giving visual cues as to what is going as opposed to direct textual and numeric methods. For instance, you could totally have barless health where the opponent looks bloodier and wearier as his health decreases. Nailing that down and having it work at lower graphic settings would be prohibitive still but, many would welcome players that format.

 

I totally understand that many players have developed a taste for a playstyle with alot of incoming metrics data and they enjoy it but, BioWare is very much about wrapping video games in story and an immersive virtual reality NOT pulling back the curtain for streamlined competitive play. They allow it as they can but, their first priority is maintaining the adventure and part of that is distracting the players seeking their style of experience from numbers and programming behind it all.

 

Data-driven play isn't something wrong or evil but, players need to realize that BioWare allows that as long as it does not encroach upon their intended experience for this game. That means the onus shifts to working for the info one wants to maintain a barrier preventing hard numbers being forced into the the play of your more story-oriented players. Being judged is part of it but, piercing that veil shrouding the inner workings of the game is the larger issue.

[Matte_Black]

Youre saying its the "high end", not the devs, who push the game forward? So without the "high end" the devs would just sit back holding off new content from us until they felt like it? Somehow I doubt that.

 

They definitely push the game in the direction but, I would say BioWare and many of this game's players might question whether the high-enders really are pushing it "forward", at least as it concerns the intended play experience goals for this game. This more an adventure game than an eSport and I think many see "forward" as being toward story-oriented play and away from from hard metrics.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Matte_Black

[Seregul]

If you go back to some of the Guild Summit comments, BioWare talks alot about displaying combat information in more cinematic ways. Visual effects as opposed to buff/debuff icons. There direction seems to be toward giving visual cues as to what is going as opposed to direct textual and numeric methods. For instance, you could totally have barless health where the opponent looks bloodier and wearier as his health decreases. Nailing that down and having it work at lower graphic settings would be prohibitive still but, many would welcome players that format.

 

I totally understand that many players have developed a taste for a playstyle with alot of incoming metrics data and they enjoy it but, BioWare is very much about wrapping video games in story and an immersive virtual reality NOT pulling back the curtain for streamlined competitive play. They allow it as they can but, their first priority is maintaining the adventure and part of that is distracting the players seeking their style of experience from numbers and programming behind it all.

 

Data-driven play isn't something wrong or evil but, players need to realize that BioWare allows that as long as it does not encroach upon their intended experience for this game. That means the onus shifts to working for the info one wants to maintain a barrier preventing hard numbers being forced into the the play of your more story-oriented players. Being judged is part of it but, piercing that veil shrouding the inner workings of the game is the larger issue.

 

If you really believe this then this game must make you furious, because I see numbers everywhere.

[Marak]

Oh really?

 

That doesnt make any sense to me what so ever.

 

Youre saying its the "high end", not the devs, who push the game forward? So without the "high end" the devs would just sit back holding off new content from us until they felt like it? Somehow I doubt that.

 

And whats all this about making things relevant to the gamer community? I dont get it ...

 

Raids are designed for the high end. Encounter gimmicks, class abilities, and content in general were designed for a certain subset of people that are going to apply min/max tactics to defeat challenging content. You don't get the Plane of Time without boss encounters. You don't get Northrend without Arthas. You need hard raid content to sell the drama/relevance of content. It's just the way MMOs have always been.

[Frostvein]

Somehow dps meter seems to be frightning some people, i don't understand why, they are tools to help you.

 

There are a few reasons, some valid and some ridiculous.

 

The most common argument against them that I've seen is the classic "I was kicked from (some form of content in another MMO, usually WoW) for not doing enough (healing, damage) and I don't want that here"

 

The reality of the situation is that if anyone of those people spent 15 minutes or so looking up the proper gearing and rotation they would be completely fine.

 

Its like this -

 

"I don't have time to look that stuff up!"

err, you have time to complain on the forums about meters endlessly, but no time to research a rotation or proper gearing?

"Well, I shouldn't have to!"

Well, we shouldn't have to carry you, either.

 

I'm all for in game meters that are disabled during story mode content. However, they should be available for those that want them for HM/Nightmare.

[Matte_Black]

If you really believe this then this game must make you furious, because I see numbers everywhere.

 

I would venture to guess I react to things much more mildly than you judging from the tones of our posts. I accept what numbers are in this game, would prefer they were less visible and am definitely against increasing the focus on them by the playerbase or having them play a larger role in my game and on my screen.

[Vankris]

If you go back to some of the Guild Summit comments, BioWare talks alot about displaying combat information in more cinematic ways. Visual effects as opposed to buff/debuff icons. There direction seems to be toward giving visual cues as to what is going as opposed to direct textual and numeric methods. For instance, you could totally have barless health where the opponent looks bloodier and wearier as his health decreases. Nailing that down and having it work at lower graphic settings would be prohibitive still but, many would welcome players that format.

 

I totally understand that many players have developed a taste for a playstyle with alot of incoming metrics data and they enjoy it but, BioWare is very much about wrapping video games in story and an immersive virtual reality NOT pulling back the curtain for streamlined competitive play. They allow it as they can but, their first priority is maintaining the adventure and part of that is distracting the players seeking their style of experience from numbers and programming behind it all.

 

Data-driven play isn't something wrong or evil but, players need to realize that BioWare allows that as long as it does not encroach upon their intended experience for this game. That means the onus shifts to working for the info one wants to maintain a barrier preventing hard numbers being forced into the the play of your more story-oriented players. Being judged is part of it but, piercing that veil shrouding the inner workings of the game is the larger issue.

 

 

They are some truth in what you say, but there is some i don't agree with.

 

 

Visual clue

 

very good idea indeed, but, it will never replace a combat log for analysis of an encounter.

 

what visual can do is

- replace DBM: totally agree with this approach, instead of having a DBM warning, you not have the game itself warn you somehow.

 

- procs. the game does not do it and it should. I play a jedi shadow tank. There is a proc called accelerated particule, when this proc, i have a few seconds to use project, which make it a garanty crit, thus the most interesting spell to use. However, to see the proc, i must stare consistently at the buff bar, to identify a tiny icon signifying i can use project.

 

wouldn't it be nicer if i was staring a my jedi and it's acrobatic fighting style and see some kind of visual effect, like an aura or something, telling me i can now use project. Yes to visual effect.

 

- Blood on the boss instead of life en % or raw number, i don't believe in it. I may be possible in a different game, but i don't see star wars doing it, it's not the way it is constructed.

 

For example, old FPS were based on having an HP bar (half-life) whereas modern FPS, you just have a system of regenrating health (call of duty). But i don't see half-life suddenly changing to a regen life model, the game is simply not build that way. Same for SWTOR, he is build around Health Pool and DPS and HPS, i don't see it changing it's core mechanic that easily.

 

 

 

Story Driven

 

It is indeed a major strong point of star wars, but i don't see the story carrying it for 7 years. You have to think how to maintain the game the years to come. Yes right now the game has ton of content, tons of story and can last several month still, but expansion will never be as large as the game itself, and the story will not carry the game in 2014, in 2015.

 

What will carry the game is gameplay. Competitive gameplay. What does carry modern warfare games? What does carry starcraft games?

[MasterKayote]

Raids are designed for the high end. Encounter gimmicks, class abilities, and content in general were designed for a certain subset of people that are going to apply min/max tactics to defeat challenging content. You don't get the Plane of Time without boss encounters. You don't get Northrend without Arthas. You need hard raid content to sell the drama/relevance of content. It's just the way MMOs have always been.

 

Yeah I dont buy that at all. The "high end" are simply the guys that get their first. They'll "kill Arthas" first but high end number crunchers arent the only ones that beat HM Raids in this or any game ... theyre just the guys that beat it in a week (or less) rather than a month then possibly complain/quit because there is nothing to do until the next content patch.

 

Raids arent "designed" specifically for them, theyre there as a goal for everyone. Encounter gimmicks and class abilities? What? I dont even know how you would come to such a conclusion. So basically youre claiming that anything outside of story and questing was made for high end players? No ... just no.

 

The devs dont need the high end players to make Arthas or Northrend and I dont know about the rest of the gaming community but I sure as hell dont need them to give any relevance to my gaming. There are all types of gamers out there. While im sure there are some who couldnt care less about raids or even grouping up, we all want the content, we all strive to beat "Arthas" ... we all drive the game forward by consuming the content.

[Stupiddrummer]

If you go back to some of the Guild Summit comments, BioWare talks alot about displaying combat information in more cinematic ways. Visual effects as opposed to buff/debuff icons. There direction seems to be toward giving visual cues as to what is going as opposed to direct textual and numeric methods. For instance, you could totally have barless health where the opponent looks bloodier and wearier as his health decreases. Nailing that down and having it work at lower graphic settings would be prohibitive still but, many would welcome players that format.

 

I totally understand that many players have developed a taste for a playstyle with alot of incoming metrics data and they enjoy it but, BioWare is very much about wrapping video games in story and an immersive virtual reality NOT pulling back the curtain for streamlined competitive play. They allow it as they can but, their first priority is maintaining the adventure and part of that is distracting the players seeking their style of experience from numbers and programming behind it all.

 

Data-driven play isn't something wrong or evil but, players need to realize that BioWare allows that as long as it does not encroach upon their intended experience for this game. That means the onus shifts to working for the info one wants to maintain a barrier preventing hard numbers being forced into the the play of your more story-oriented players. Being judged is part of it but, piercing that veil shrouding the inner workings of the game is the larger issue.

 

Bioware/EA is very fluent in market-speak. Don't feel bad though they had me fooled at one point, too.

 

Remember how exciting and immersive they said the space combat would be? They didn't exactly lie, they just embellished on a lot of adjectives, and made a point to be incredibly vague.

 

How much more vague can it get than "combat information displayed in cinematic ways?" This is a game founded on rolling a D20, not trying to find meaning in an interpretive dance.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Stupiddrummer

[Marak]

Yeah I dont buy that at all. The "high end" are simply the guys that get their first. They'll "kill Arthas" first but high end number crunchers arent the only ones that beat HM Raids in this or any game ... theyre just the guys that beat it in a week (or less) rather than a month then possibly complain/quit because there is nothing to do until the next content patch.

 

Raids arent "designed" specifically for them, theyre there as a goal for everyone. Encounter gimmicks and class abilities? What? I dont even know how you would come to such a conclusion. So basically youre claiming that anything outside of story and questing was made for high end players? No ... just no.

 

The devs dont need the high end players to make Arthas or Northrend and I dont know about the rest of the gaming community but I sure as hell dont need them to give any relevance to my gaming. There are all types of gamers out there. While im sure there are some who couldnt care less about raids or even grouping up, we all want the content, we all strive to beat "Arthas" ... we all drive the game forward by consuming the content.

 

Can you imagine playing a game that content WASN'T designed for them? Any decent raid with 2 or more brain cells would clear NM content in their first shot.

 

Fact is balance is done mathematically with the notion that people are trying to "game" the numbers. You can be disgruntled/disenfranchised about it all you want, but that is where raiding came from. The industry has been trying to make it more casual friendly but it was not conceived as such.

 

The point of the spear is just as important as the fat part of the curve from a design perspective.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Marak

[Vahzl]

You can pretty much monitor WoW's community decline in quality from the day Omen went live (or whatever it's predecessor was called).

 

It is a weapon misused by children and vile internet thugs to grieve others.

 

Yes it has it's very valuable uses for those top end raiders who want to squeeze that last drop of DPS out of every encounter, but it is something that causes too much harassment. I like to know how well im performing, but I can usually tell that by how dead my target is.

 

DPS meters lead to direct skill rotations, class pigeon holing and robotic boring gameplay.

 

You are no longer playing a game at this point, you are effectively playing on a very colourful calculator.

 

You are all entitled to your opinions on the system though, as am I, and mine is that it should be left out. I don't think that knowing how big the numbers are over time will really make that much difference in any situation, as the proof of any successful raid/boss/pvp encounter comes down to the one standing at the end, not the one with the biggest abacus.

[Matte_Black]

Visual clue

 

very good idea indeed, but, it will never replace a combat log for analysis of an encounter....

 

Story Driven

 

It is indeed a major strong point of star wars, but i don't see the story carrying it for 7 years....

 

Most people here aren't against a combat log for analysis. Anyone who want to be analyzed will be able to be. The personal analysis can happen and BioWare and most players seem support personal evaluation as useful and a good addition. The rift is bringing metrics to the forefront during play and causing others who may not want to to be required to enter that metrics discussion.

 

Probably much of the rift is how exact some people like their measurements. Alot of those demanding real-time logs are what I would call hung-up on numbers. They are welcome to that preference and it's their choice to like what they like but, when you listen to BioWare they talk about getting players to look at the action rather than their ability trays. They even give us audible speech instead text. Their goal is a more sensory experience than technical one.

 

I think SWTOR's strategy is to aim at a narrower band of the spectrum and focus on their strengths in providing a premier story-oriented MMO and holding a loyal more directly satisfied audience who want that type of game. The math of it being that it is simpler to give 2 million players something close to what they want that competing with every game for the same 5 or 10 million that they inevitiably have to deliver more compromised watered-down experineces to as they try to be all things to all people. Essentially, "we'll take the casuals and make them our own and leave the hard-core game to be fought over by games that do it better than they can.

[Marak]

@Vahzl,

 

That's an incomplete picture. People aren't concerned with performance if the target dies. It's the very opposite. You say "Well the boss is dead so that's good enough for me" but what about the raid group that fails on progression for weeks at a time because they keep hitting enrage timers? That is when the numbers are important.

 

And they serve three functions. If person A, B, and C are doing 1000 dps and person D is doing 500 dps you know your weak spot. If everyone is doing 900 dps and you need 1000 dps to beat the encounter then you know the raid is probably undergeared. And lastly they provide personal assessment for people to see what works best for them.

 

All of this is of the utmost importance to raiders. Going back to the car analogy it is the difference between Formula 1 racing and kiddie go-karts. Performance is important to the overall enjoyment of that subset of people. The HM/NM raiders. Not the normal mode people.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Marak

[MasterKayote]

Can you imagine playing a game that content WASN'T designed for them? Any decent raid with 2 or more brain cells would clear NM content in their first shot.

 

Fact is balance is done mathematically with the notion that people are trying to "game" the numbers. You can be disgruntled/disenfranchised about it all you want, but that is where raiding came from. The industry has been trying to make it more casual friendly but it was not conceived as such.

 

The point of the spear is just as important as the fat part of the curve from a design perspective.

 

Thats just it ... I dont see it as ever being designed for them at all. I dont put them on any kind of pedestal what-so-ever. What proof is there that the devs ever made anything specifically for those that crunch numbers building the perfect spec, rotation, etc? With what logic can someone explain to me that that these "high end players" are the motivation for developers to make raids? None that ive seen. Maybe they get feedback from them but as a raider I have NEVER bothered to follow some websites word on how I should play and have done so just fine.

 

Just because developers make content that is beatable by those with a brain doesnt mean the credit goes any farther than the devs themselves. The devs have all the tools they do and then some. I didnt need to min/max to beat Illidan, maybe some others in my guild did, their choice ... the point is its not necessary. Min/max'ing simply becomes a "standard" (imo, a corruption) of the community who start believing these guides to be more than just a way of making an encounter easier. Its definitely not a written in stone pre-requisite to defeating a boss and the devs certainly do not balance the content around the "perfect" player. Theyre not the driving force behind content development, challenge, or "relevance" its just something the devs do with this and any other game they make.

[Cleopas]

I can't understand why someone would be against real time combat logs ingame? If it can be toggled in some way it shouldn't affect you in the least if you don't want to use it.

[Stoicraven]

mention real time combat logs on PTS and players revolt.............it makes no sense

[FooBard]

While I do understand the usefulness of combat logs... there are just too many avenues for misuse of the data... therefore...

 

I do NOT support combat logs that contain ANY data other than SELF data.

 

I don't think that needs any further clarification.

[Cleopas]

While I do understand the usefulness of combat logs... there are just too many avenues for misuse of the data... therefore...

 

I do NOT support combat logs that contain ANY data other than SELF data.

 

I don't think that needs any further clarification.

 

What? That makes no sense. In every sport played all over the world we see real time stats. It's what we crave.

 

When I'm watching a baseball game, I need to know (expect to know) that my pitcher has thrown 100+ pitches. Why? Because that means he's getting tired and if he's only in the 3rd inning, I can tell that he sucks today.

 

These statistics help us as "players" become better at our "sport". Much they same way they assist a pitching coach (Ops leader) and the manager (GM) know that it's time to pull the starter. Next time they may give another person a shot at getting in the game.

 

Do these stats tell the whole story all of the time? Heck no, but they do give us information that helps us to make decisions. for the future.

[Stupiddrummer]

While I do understand the usefulness of combat logs... there are just too many avenues for misuse of the data... therefore...

 

I do NOT support combat logs that contain ANY data other than SELF data.

 

I don't think that needs any further clarification.

 

What counts as self data? What if someone heals me. Should i know how much i got healed for? What if they are self-conscious about their healing? Does that mean i'll look at my log, see that i took way more damage than i have HP, and assume i got healed?

Edited March 26, 2012 by Stupiddrummer

[JediElf]

You can pretty much monitor WoW's community decline in quality from the day Omen went live (or whatever it's predecessor was called).

 

It is a weapon misused by children and vile internet thugs to grieve others.

 

Yes it has it's very valuable uses for those top end raiders who want to squeeze that last drop of DPS out of every encounter, but it is something that causes too much harassment. I like to know how well im performing, but I can usually tell that by how dead my target is.

 

DPS meters lead to direct skill rotations, class pigeon holing and robotic boring gameplay.

 

You are no longer playing a game at this point, you are effectively playing on a very colourful calculator.

You are all entitled to your opinions on the system though, as am I, and mine is that it should be left out. I don't think that knowing how big the numbers are over time will really make that much difference in any situation, as the proof of any successful raid/boss/pvp encounter comes down to the one standing at the end, not the one with the biggest abacus.

 

Well said, very well said.

[Cleopas]

What counts as self data? What if someone heals me. Should i know how much i got healed for? What if they are self-conscious about their healing? Does that mean i'll look at my log, see that i took way more damage than i have HP, and assume i got healed?

 

Lol! Great point.

 

At this point I can just be like, "Dunno what happened, bro. I promise I healed you."

[Cleopas]

Well said, very well said.

 

Yet completely arbitrary. Where's the proof that WoW started to decline when add-ons came of age? As a hardcore raider before and after...give me after.

[MackumDog]

Well said, very well said.

 

I agree whole heartedly. I remember that as soon as we had to play to damage meters etc, we as players were told what Talent tree to focus on, what equipment to have, what buttons to press and when.

 

It was anoying to be talked down to, and it became the reason I quit, I pay, I play my style and it may not be 100% efficient, but suits me.

[MackumDog]

Yet completely arbitrary. Where's the proof that WoW started to decline when add-ons came of age? As a hardcore raider before and after...give me after.

 

I am not having a go at you, and maybe your one of the better hardcore players, infact most real hardcore players are usually quite acceptable and understand the game and like to try different options out.

 

it is the wannabe hardcores, those that brag about getting 10,000 DPS and yelling that you only got 9,999 DPS and you must be slacking. Those are the people most of us fear,