PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

[JediElf]

That's fine and I sympathize. I have never been one to really bash underperformers as they're likely people like my dad who just can't be bothered and just want to swing a big axe at things.

 

This, this assumption and this reply right here.

 

This is why people don't want meters.

 

Their are so many players that are really good at this game, who kill things with ease, and who do well with the unique build that they have, but because they don't fall into line, because they don't want or need meters, no they get labeled as 'bads' or incompetent or worse.

 

That's just not the case.

[Loendar]

That's fine and I sympathize. I have never been one to really bash underperformers as they're likely people like my dad who just can't be bothered and just want to swing a big axe at things.

 

The problem is when you impose that in a team environment. I find it weird that in all other walks of life it's considered rude to not play to the standards of the team, except in present day MMOs. Truth is, it is rude. But that's all aside from the point.

 

Modern day MMOs have multiple difficulty settings in raids. I am all for letting people just swing their axes in normal mode content. I just don't understand why the casual crowd can't give us the same right of way when it comes to the more challenging content.

 

The compromise of disabling combat logs outside of HM/NM content is a win/win for everyone. If you want to just goof around you aren't going to be hurting anyone because normals are easy enough to just plow through. But for those that actually want a challenge.. we can't give them the tools to do it correctly? How is that fair?

 

As an 'anti' log person I would have no problem with the option to enable a full real-time log in HM/NM raids only. It is something that would give you something you feel you need to progress (arguments of ACTUALLY needing them to progress aside) and not harm those that aren't doing that level of content.

 

The reality of the situation is that once they are implemented at the tier the stage is set for the cries of "Well - you already let me see it in HM/NM Ops ... really all Ops should have them" followed by "Well - HM FP's are really causing my group to suffer and I can't tell why. The technology exists in-game already.. why not just turn it on for HM FP's?", all the way on down until it exists at all tiers.

[MackumDog]

Lets put two scenarios on the page.

 

1. We have a player who has got a gun with a massive hit, hes been lucky and had a good drop, he has boosted his aim and all his tallent tree to support this gun. He spends allt he raid hitting the F1 key and blasting away, getting a massive DPS

 

2. We have another player who has spec'ed for crowd control, an stuns, he has not had the luckto get a good gun on a drop. but he spends the raid stunning and calming the adds, puttting in a lot of effort but getting a low DPS.

 

with these metres, player 1 is often seen as the best, even though we know hes not. the 2nd is more of a team player.

[Marak]

Lets put two scenarios on the page.

 

1. We have a player who has got a gun with a massive hit, hes been lucky and had a good drop, he has boosted his aim and all his tallent tree to support this gun. He spends allt he raid hitting the F1 key and blasting away, getting a massive DPS

 

2. We have another player who has spec'ed for crowd control, an stuns, he has not had the luckto get a good gun on a drop. but he spends the raid stunning and calming the adds, puttting in a lot of effort but getting a low DPS.

 

with these metres, player 1 is often seen as the best, even though we know hes not. the 2nd is more of a team player.

 

While yes I understand direct comparisons do happen, this is not generally the case in actual higher end raids. Damage meters/combat logs are diagnostic tools and anyone actually intelligent enough to look at a diagnostic tool correctly also takes things like that into consideration.

 

Under the above premise-- Guild has a fully geared gunslinger that does stupidly high DPS. Guild recruits new sage in starter level 50 gear. Sage gets assigned to random function duty because everybody knows he won't pull his weight in DPS yet. They don't say "Oh.. well since our gunslinger, who is the top geared GS on the server btw, totally stomped your face you are bad and should feel bad"

[Esproc]

I do and we keep these stats for bragging rights, to see who should bat where in the next game, and to see who gets MVP/All tournament, etc.

 

And some of us did play sports professionally or in college and thus this competitive streak is still alive. The analogy fits.

 

And this my fellow players, is the real reason, not what is otherwise given, for demands of logs and then other meters, addons, and the like, for "knowing what I do, when it is a crutch to creating builds, gearing, and "tell me whens" to push/mash a button.

 

 

As another poster put it, "BW uses these tools to make the FP/OP harder and therefore we need those same tools so that we can beat them".

 

Leave the game as it is, be a person and not a tool like the things that run you in those "other" games. WoW Dev is quoted about the addition of "these tools" as we gave too much "and now we can't get the Djinn back in the bottle".

Edited March 26, 2012 by Esproc

[MackumDog]

While yes I understand direct comparisons do happen, this is not generally the case in actual higher end raids. Damage meters/combat logs are diagnostic tools and anyone actually intelligent enough to look at a diagnostic tool correctly also takes things like that into consideration.

 

Under the above premise-- Guild has a fully geared gunslinger that does stupidly high DPS. Guild recruits new sage in starter level 50 gear. Sage gets assigned to random function duty because everybody knows he won't pull his weight in DPS yet. They don't say "Oh.. well since our gunslinger, who is the top geared GS on the server btw, totally stomped your face you are bad and should feel bad"

 

The problem is not within guilds, I would say that any decent guild would notice an low equiped memeber and work as one to build them up, or accept their style of play and use it as part of their 'plan' .. the problem is with the general community and although I hate PUG groups there are times we all have to do them.

[Seregul]

Lets put two scenarios on the page.

 

1. We have a player who has got a gun with a massive hit, hes been lucky and had a good drop, he has boosted his aim and all his tallent tree to support this gun. He spends allt he raid hitting the F1 key and blasting away, getting a massive DPS

 

2. We have another player who has spec'ed for crowd control, an stuns, he has not had the luckto get a good gun on a drop. but he spends the raid stunning and calming the adds, puttting in a lot of effort but getting a low DPS.

 

with these metres, player 1 is often seen as the best, even though we know hes not. the 2nd is more of a team player.

 

A full combat log would make it very clear what each player was doing. And if someone wanted to make the superficial claim that player 2's dps (funny how you guys only ever mention dps) was lower and that therefore he should be removed/not get loot/some other arbitrary thing, then with, and only with, full combat logs could player 2 add any weight to his argument that he was in fact doing his job and helping the group succeed.

[Andryah]

The problem is not within guilds, I would say that any decent guild would notice an low equiped memeber and work as one to build them up, or accept their style of play and use it as part of their 'plan' .. the problem is with the general community and although I hate PUG groups there are times we all have to do them.

 

I agree.

 

Guild play is not the problem in MMOs today, it's PUGS. Any guild that behaves with a PUG mindset folds pretty quickly, so they are self-limiting in terms of bad behavior.

 

PUGs are where the issue with public combat logs and metering gets ugly. PUGs actually encourage bad behavior between parties because they have no relationship, they are just random aonymous internet matching. I've seen too many players abused by the PUG community with these tools in hand.

 

I support giving guilds more tools for their raid progression work. But not at the expense of turning those same tools loose in the hands of the PUGs. Give guilds internal logging for all guild members in a raid, that would be fine to me as I know they will use it responsibly. PUGs and random scrubs in game... forget about it.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Andryah

[MackumDog]

A full combat log would make it very clear what each player was doing. And if someone wanted to make the superficial claim that player 2's dps (funny how you guys only ever mention dps) was lower and that therefore he should be removed/not get loot/some other arbitrary thing, then with, and only with, full combat logs could player 2 add any weight to his argument that he was in fact doing his job and helping the group succeed.

 

The reason I target DPS is because it is usually DPS that is in competition, I actually play a medic in all the MMOs I have played, and as a healer sit there at the bottom of the DPS list

From a healer Pov the aim is to get the tema through it, some healers may spam out massive heals others may thow out DoTs and keep people topped up, it never really matters how you heal as long as the team lives

[Matte_Black]

Again I'll say it.

 

Each side has it's conflicting WANTS.

Neither groups' demand is a NEED.

 

BioWare has made a good compromise to add a useful analysis tool but, has chosen to serve the wishes of the majority of it's playerbase which also happens to be inline with their type of target player for this game.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Matte_Black

[Esproc]

Sorry, wrong thread, too many, No more doodads, Edited March 26, 2012 by Esproc

[KingOMonkeys]

I hate not having combat logs. I dont know how many times my guild has been running FP's or OP's and we hit enrage or wipe and we are like..what happened? No clue. DPS are asking is there something we can do better or is it just gear? No clue. Does my rotation work better with A before B or A before C? No clue. Do I have too much crit and not enough surge? No clue.

 

I'm sorry but any way you cut it if you are doing group content you need to group to pull their weight and without logs noone knows who isn't pulling their weight. I'm a healer and to be honest i'm sick of hitting enrage timers on bosses with everyone up and alive and all the dps saying they have no idea what they can do better. Why should I suffer wipe after wipe if I'm doing my job and others aren't? I dont mind helping people do better DPS but how can anyone help if we dont know what they are doing? How can anyone improve if they dont know what they are doing?

 

To me not having combat logs will make more people quit the game, even the casuals will stop playing once they are fed up with wiping and can't figure out why they are wiping.

[Cleopas]

That's all you had to say. I now understand your position perfectly.

 

But that's not all I said. Don't misquote me. They're are multiple reasons for why we do this.

 

I do and we keep these stats for bragging rights, to see who should bat where in the next game, and to see who gets MVP/All tournament, etc.

[JediElf]

I agree.

 

Guild play is not the problem in MMOs today, it's PUGS. Any guild that behaves with a PUG mindset folds pretty quickly, so they are self-limiting in terms of bad behavior.

 

PUGs are where the issue with public combat logs and metering gets ugly. PUGs actually encourage bad behavior between parties because they have no relationship, they are just random aonymous internet matching. I've seen too many players abused by the PUG community with these tools in hand.

 

I support giving guilds more tools for their raid progression work. But not at the expense of turning those same tools loose in the hands of the PUGs. Give guilds internal logging for all guild members in a raid, that would be fine to me as I know they will use it responsibly. PUGs and random scrubs in game... forget about it.

 

This ^^

[Cleopas]

And this my fellow players, is the real reason, not what is otherwise given, for demands of logs and then other meters, addons, and the like, for "knowing what I do, when it is a crutch to creating builds, gearing, and "tell me whens" to push/mash a button.

 

 

As another poster put it, "BW uses these tools to make the FP/OP harder and therefore we need those same tools so that we can beat them".

 

Leave the game as it is, be a person and not a tool like the things that run you in those "other" games. WoW Dev is quoted about the addition of "these tools" as we gave too much "and now we can't get the Djinn back in the bottle".

 

But not the only reason. Read the whole quote. On my team, we use this information to help us beat the next team we play and in this game, but Chicks Dig the Long Ball and because of that, being on top is fun.

 

Regardless, competition is a good thing. It makes me and those I'm competing against better. When you see someone doing better than you, you want to step it up. There's nothing wrong with that.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Cleopas

[KingOMonkeys]

Right now I see alot of pugs that will drop you if you have less than XYZ amount of health. how is this any different than seeing your dps in a meter..oh i know your health does not directly relate to how well you do your job and a dps meter IS how well you do your job. group content is group content to be done in a group, people will always have a standard they expect others to live up to so they dont feel like they are carrying other players.

[mjohnsonfhk]

ya just what we need, a bunch of dps trying to pwn the damage meters and pulling agro.

 

cant wait for that ~

[Cleopas]

Right now I see alot of pugs that will drop you if you have less than XYZ amount of health. how is this any different than seeing your dps in a meter..oh i know your health does not directly relate to how well you do your job and a dps meter IS how well you do your job. group content is group content to be done in a group, people will always have a standard they expect others to live up to so they dont feel like they are carrying other players.

 

Great point.

[Englefield]

But that's not all I said. Don't misquote me. They're are multiple reasons for why we do this.

 

But I didn't misquote you, I quoted you exactly. I just missed out the nonsensical guff about pro sports. Saying you need a log for bragging rights would have saved you from typing pages of BS about raids and baseball.

 

At least you've been honest about it.

[Cleopas]

ya just what we need, a bunch of dps trying to pwn the damage meters and pulling agro.

 

cant wait for that ~

 

Lol, that already happens without meters!

[itekazzawrrlic]

DPS meters are just about the numbers right....

 

Well how about these numbers as of 1pm pst, 3-26-12

 

http://poll.pollcode.com/f28b_result?v

 

401 Yes

521 No

[Cleopas]

But I didn't misquote you, I quoted you exactly. I just missed out the nonsensical guff about pro sports. Saying you need a log for bragging rights would have saved you from typing pages of BS about raids and baseball.

 

At least you've been honest about it.

 

You half quoted me. The analogy fits. Guilds are amateur teams comprised of individuals who like to drink beer and win stuff. If you don't understand that concept, you're thick.

 

The bragging is just part of it. It stems from competition. Like right now. You and I are competing to see who can make the most witty and insightful point. We're trying our best to "best" each other. There's nothing wrong with it. And, at the end of the day, we have our text right here saved to be judged by all of SWTOR as to who made the most significant contribution. What's wrong with that?

[itekazzawrrlic]

I was having trouble with Sel-Makor... Must have killed me 10 times. I got on the forums and read about 3 different approaches to killing him... I pwned him on my 2nd attempt after referring to the forums.... No combat log required.

[Cleopas]

I was having trouble with Sel-Makor... Must have killed me 10 times. I got on the forums and read about 3 different approaches to killing him... I pwned him on my 2nd attempt after referring to the forums.... No combat log required.

 

Strats and combat logs are different. While they can be used together, they are independent of each other.

[itekazzawrrlic]

Strats and combat logs are different. While they can be used together, they are independent of each other.

 

Had to edit because i misread your quote. But the point still stands... if you had a good strategy in the first place, you wouldn't need to squeeze every last drop of DPS....

 

Sorry but a few people screwed it up for the rest of you. Get mad at them.

Edited March 26, 2012 by itekazzawrrlic