PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

[Stupiddrummer]

But the fact is, is that no game is original, WoW set the baseline foundation for MMO's. However you can't punish BioWare for the product they achieved. I hardly doubt any developer gets enough funding to make dramatic improvements to their games because when you go up against a game like WoW, you're taking a huge risk. If I was an investor I honestly wouldn't drop every dime into a new MMO, but once it's released, you analyze the reaction of the community and how the game is holding up. Then on will people continue to fund the game in order to give it those improvements of modern day MMO's.

 

Sure SWTOR is missing some key elements, but you can't expect them all at once. It will take time. Investors/shareholders are just testing the waters till they see where this is heading. If the initial reaction is impressive, expect more resources and more players to fund the game to create new innovations.

 

EVE online would like a word with you

 

I would argue, that given the RAW POWER behind the name Star Wars, they had a better opportunity to break the mold than anyone else.

 

SWTOR is missing some key elements, and i expect them to be finished before the game is released! There is no way in hell they could pull the release they did if they weren't on a sub based model. The benefit of sub based games is that you can add/change things over time, but that shouldn't be an excuse to leave things unfinished.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Stupiddrummer

[Matte_Black]

cuz i love me some star wars!!

 

i was really bummed out when i started playing and realized, they hadn't broken the mold at all, im still basically playing WoW.

 

so if I'm going to play WoW wearing Star Wars clothing, I'd rather they at least get it right, and maybe even improve on it!

 

You have to be critical, contentment leads to stagnation!

 

And that's arguably, the only semi-valid reason for staying but, I think in the eyes of many, by pulling back the curtain on more of the back end numbers and metrics, you are draining away alot of the imersion in the SW world. While you may call this identical to WoW, it the very difference it has with WoW on the role of metrics that you argue against.

 

From my perspective, I saw very few understandable stats displayed to me while watching the movies so, I don't want them drawing me out when trying to wrap myself up in the virtual world provided. While you like Star Wars, your playstyle has you addicted to the numbers and you seem to be placing them in the top priority while most of those in the game hold SW first.

 

It feels to many of us like you are arguing to reduce the thing that makes this game the most special.

[DjSnazzyduds]

EVE online would like a word with you

 

I would argue, that given the RAW POWER behind the name Star Wars, they had a better opportunity to break the mold than anyone else.

 

SWTOR is missing some key elements, and i expect them to be finished before the game is released! There is no way in hell they could pull the release they did if they weren't on a sub based model. The benefit of sub based games is that you can add/change things over time, but that shouldn't be an excuse to leave things unfinished.

 

All reasonable points. However at this point, what do you expect them to do? They can't just shut down the servers for a couple more months and fix it all. For now, we must deal with it and welcome changes at the slow pace they are currently moving at

[JediElf]

It feels to many of us like you are arguing to reduce the thing that makes this game the most special.

 

Right there.

 

/thread

[Stupiddrummer]

And that's arguably, the only semi-valid reason for staying but, I think in the eyes of many, by pulling back the curtain on more of the back end numbers and metrics, you are draining away alot of the imersion in the SW world. While you may call this identical to WoW, it the very difference it has with WoW on the role of metrics that you argue against.

 

From my perspective, I saw very few understandable stats displayed to me while watching the movies so, I don't want them drawing me out when trying to wrap myself up in the virtual world provided. While you like Star Wars, your playstyle has you addicted to the numbers and you seem to be placing them in the top priority while most of those in the game hold SW first.

 

It feels to many of us like you are arguing to reduce the thing that makes this game the most special.

 

Giving you the ability to draw back the curtain doesnt mean that you have to look and see what's behind it. Some people prefer to know whats going on, some dont.

 

Considering how important numbers are in this game, i don't know what more harm pulling the curtain back could do. Are you telling me you upgrade your weapons by which looks coolest? Or by which does more dmg? It's a game based on numbers, there is no way around that.

 

You can try and play ignorant all you want, but in the end, you're still ignorant to the reality that the gameplay is completely based around numbers.

[DjSnazzyduds]

weird, refreshed and reposted my previous post. nevermind me lol. Edited March 22, 2012 by DjSnazzyduds

[Ulmius]

Giving you the ability to draw back the curtain doesnt mean that you have to look and see what's behind it. Some people prefer to know whats going on, some dont.

 

Considering how important numbers are in this game, i don't know what more harm pulling the curtain back could do. Are you telling me you upgrade your weapons by which looks coolest? Or by which does more dmg? It's a game based on numbers, there is no way around that.

 

You can try and play ignorant all you want, but in the end, you're still ignorant to the reality that the gameplay is completely based around numbers.

 

What you say makes me wonder something about people like that. They say things like, "Oh numbers don't matter, story and environment are what makes this game special" and it makes me wonder if they would play a game where numbers had no impact on gameplay and the game was basically Second Life but set in star wars with story and no combat progression is if they would actually play it.

[Stupiddrummer]

All reasonable points. However at this point, what do you expect them to do? They can't just shut down the servers for a couple more months and fix it all. For now, we must deal with it and welcome changes at the slow pace they are currently moving at

 

all i can do is give them feedback. I do my best to make sure that feedback is logical and not based on these crazy ideas that in game tools turn the whole population into degenerate e-peeners.

 

IMO, the biggest difference between WoW and SWTOR are the players. When i started playing WoW, i had very limited experience with WC3. I made a druid for no reason other than someone told me it would get me into groups. I knew very little about the story or the atmosphere.

 

But i think this was pretty typical. I mean, how many people played WoW because they knew it was a good game, or cuz their friends played it?

 

And, how many people played WoW because they truely loved the story and were excited to follow the story of Jaina Proudmoore, and other WoW faction heros that i didn't just google.

 

Now i'm sure there were people engaged in the WoW story. But how many people playing SWTOR do you think are Star Wars fans, compared to WoW players that are Warcraft fans?

 

So, basically, i'd theorize that, since more people in SWTOR are just overall star wars fans, that the community has a TON of common ground they share, in that they all love star wars! So, to assume that all these people that have so much in common are going to suddenly start e-peen sword fighting and hating eachother is ridiculous.

 

I mean, it's been stated over and over in this thread how people don't care about their skills, dont care about the numbers, only care about story, etc. ON TOP OF THAT, it's been stated over and over again, that content in this game is no where near difficult. So to assume that all of these tumultuous situations would occur over combat logs in non-existent difficult content, that would in reality require very low dps checks, is truly absurd.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Stupiddrummer

[Stupiddrummer]

What you say makes me wonder something about people like that. They say things like, "Oh numbers don't matter, story and environment are what makes this game special" and it makes me wonder if they would play a game where numbers had no impact on gameplay and the game was basically Second Life but set in star wars with story and no combat progression is if they would actually play it.

 

I see it as..."Would you play D&D without dice, or character sheets?"

 

for it to be game, there has to be a win or lose. For there to be a win or lose, there has to be some sort of quantitative method to determine this.

[DaxRendar]

I'll stop when my $15 a month is worth less than yours'.

 

Why should Bioware expect me to download and configure ACT to run in Overlay Mode? I pay them $15 so i can play their game, not run BS third party programs just so they can submit to players that dont want to get harassed (who are going to get harassed, regardless).

 

Here you are fully hypocritical, as WoW doesn't have Real-Time meters. You need an Addon... you know... a 3rd Party Tool you download.

[Matte_Black]

I see it as..."Would you play D&D without dice, or character sheets?"

 

for it to be game, there has to be a win or lose. For there to be a win or lose, there has to be some sort of quantitative method to determine this.

 

Table-top, MMO or LARP, every type of RPG has the same divisions. Some folks forget they are playing a story with a character and push aside the color and drama to play competitively. This issue is less about whether you are playing the game as intended with numbers in their appropriate role and more about pushing aside the color and drama of the imagined world to compete with those same numbers at the forefront.

 

It's much less about whether thereare numbers involved than about whether they are the focus and drive how the community plays. I have played, tested, and helped developed all three types of games and eventually, each game needs to choose which type of play is it's priority to move on to be successful because, mixing the both kinds players in one environment only diminishes the experience of both.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Matte_Black

[Stupiddrummer]

Here you are fully hypocritical, as WoW doesn't have Real-Time meters. You need an Addon... you know... a 3rd Party Tool you download.

 

If Bioware gave players the ability to create addons this thread wouldn't exist. But that's a whole nother can of words.

 

Since you keep insisting on saying mean things to me, i will say something nice about you.

 

Dash Rendar is my favorite star wars character and i was sad i couldnt name my Smuggler "Dash."

 

 

edit; i meant to say can of worms, but i think my typo is ok.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Stupiddrummer

[GalacticKegger]

If Bioware gave players the ability to create addons this thread wouldn't exist. But that's a whole nother can of words.

 

Since you keep insisting on saying mean things to me, i will say something nice about you.

 

Dash Rendar is my favorite star wars character and i was sad i couldnt name my Smuggler "Dash."

 

edit; i meant to say can of worms, but i think my typo is ok.

Actually it would. It would just be a rant about something else. Edited March 22, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[Teraclon]

In game combat logs are pretty essential to high end raiding. Even people who are against them are not going to constantly alt+tab to figure out what just killed them in pve or pvp.

 

I'm 100% for them being in game!

[DaxRendar]

If Bioware gave players the ability to create addons this thread wouldn't exist. But that's a whole nother can of words.

 

Since you keep insisting on saying mean things to me, i will say something nice about you.

 

Dash Rendar is my favorite star wars character and i was sad i couldnt name my Smuggler "Dash."

 

 

edit; i meant to say can of worms, but i think my typo is ok.

 

I'm truly sorry if you feel my posts have been "mean" - they have mostly been an attempt to counter logical fallacies.

 

In some ways, ACT is far superior to Recount because it allows more detailed analysis and BOTH online and offline analysis.

 

(and I was seriously bummed about some of the "naming lockouts" in this game too)

[Kupo]

I can't imagine why this was not put into the game at the beginning. It's not as if Bioware doesn't know how to do it - they've had combat logs in their games at least as far back as Neverwinter Nights (2001 I believe.) Heck, even KotOR had a combat log despite its obvious console roots. I like that we have the option to save logs to a file, but it's simply not enough. We as players need to be able to see what's going on in real number terms because, after all, this is a numbers game behind the scenes. As a healer I need to be able to see not only that I or party members are taking damage, but why we are taking damage, and I need it while the game is running.

 

I'm also for DPS/heal meters. They're useful for figuring out what works best and how players can improve. Yes, I know they will be used for epeen measuring and slagging off bad players, but turn that around for a second: if you have a player in your group doing poor DPS, a meter will help you figure out what that player is doing wrong and what they can do better. I would hope that good players will help the poor ones to improve, but if they don't it's those players' fault, not the meters. Keeping meters out of the game will not make those players less of a douche.

 

As for threat meters... I'm not sure they're actually needed. Maybe just a threat warning would suffice. (Tanks also need to learn that any mobs they haven't hit will come after the healer. That's not heal aggro; it's a tank being stupid.)

[Tiars]

POLL

 

PART: 3 (Over 2000 posts)

 

 

I want to create this poll to try and get a sensus on combat logs and the importance of real logs along with DPS meters, threat meters and the like. Please keep this discussion civil. Below is what I wrote in the UI thread from the guild summit.

 

Understand, currently the new logs are only accessable outside of the game and only display information that has happened to you. (ie the "what happened to me" button in WoW's combat log). DO NOT VOTE if you do not understand combat logs, what kind of combat logs they are implementing (only self, a lot of people do not understand this as I have read from answers to other threads), or if you intend to troll.

 

 

I have few issues with the combat logs only presenting the fight from the point of view of one character and being an out out game text file. Running in windowed mode and using a text viewer that will track new lines can give you information in close to real time in how you are doing.

 

To eliminate the issues though the developers do need to include some in game support for things that the combat logs were originally used for in WoW.

 

1. Threat meter against my current target - As DPS I want to know if I am close to having the same threat as the tank. As the tank I want confirmation that I am at 100% threat. If operations are going to be more skill based in the future this is the type of information that is very important.
   
2. Overall Party/Operation DPS - There are times when the abilities of the boss fights in flashpoints and operations will come to to a fight to defeat the boss before the group/operation is simply whittled away. A group DPS meter can help a leader assess how well the group is doing without exposing how individuals are doing.
   

 

If all of this is implemented the only problem that I can see with this is asking people for advice on how to improve. Outside of what I have mentioned 99% of what I have used the logs for in WoW has been to answer questions from people when I was a class or raid leader on how they could do better.

 

I am aware that there are individuals who have misused damage meters in WoW to kick people from groups for no good reason. From my experience these are a minority and in general you do not want to be grouped with people that are constantly watching how others are doing. The complaints are from a minority that is not as big as they appear to be.

 

If Bioware provides everything I mention I can still help people by having people send me their logs and it would be reasonable.

[DarthKhaos]

Now whenever a game comes out its, "WoW did this, WoW did that, WoW, WoW, WoW". Why not just play WoW or quit gaming all together? Games aren't given chances anymore because the players are putting them up on the grand pedestal that is WoW.

 

Why be excited for anything if all we can do is judge and compare? "Why waste time on Android Tablets when Apple's iPad has it all. Your laptop sucks, what brand is it? iBuypower? Pfft nothing compared to Alienware."

 

Players are only causing their own demise. Sure Bioware has some fault to some declines in this game, however it is also the players who has such high expectations of games to be godly in comparison to a game that's been doing it for years upon years.

So much truth in this statement.

 

Ill bet that almost everyone who voted ( either way ) doesn't raid anyway in SWTOR.

The poll is a waste of time because the game will be a forgotten memory when GW2 comes out.

And you'll come back here to complain about how GW2 dissapointed you because of X or Y. Know why? Because GW2 wouldn't have their own forums for you to B&M on.

Stop falling into the trap of believing a game is the end all, be all of games. You're just gonna break your own heart.

[Teraclon]

For all the people saying that combat logs shouldn't be in the game, would u at least agree that a damage log of some sort would be beneficial?

 

If you have ever fought a boss over 3inches tall on your screen, then I'm sure you have had to zoom way out to even see what is happening and also move the camera around if there are objects in your view. For most people, I doubt they like to change their camera angles constantly to see what kind of dmg their doing.

 

A damage log would be similar to what EQ had waaaay back in the day. A log exactly like chat that just shows your outgoing and incoming dmg. If you wanted to parse your own dmg as a "combat log" then you could add up all ur numbers and the time it took to kill, etc etc.. So this wouldn't be a raid wide function. This would also alleviate having to alt tab or exit the game just to see what happened. Personally I don't see how this could make anyone unhappy and it could be a very very easy implementation with the new UI functions.

[-Samhain-]

Posted this on the previous thread but it didn't get a lot of traction because it was the last page, so I'm going to repost it here:

 

To anyone making a claim that combat logs lead to elitism, here's a story for you:

 

Tonight I got kicked from a group for my dps being too low. How could they tell my dps was too low you ask? Oh, because my gear wasn't great. I'm an assassin tank normally but sometimes I find it difficult to find a group as a tank on my server so I built up a modest dps set for the times I just want to get my daily done and not worry about waiting around for some group that needs a tank. So my dps set isn't great, but I know how to play my class as a dps at least, I have read up on the rotation and used it for leveling so I know what I'm supposed to be doing. I have no way to judge even my own dps so other people claiming that it's low is somewhat baffling to me. The gear isn't great, it's orange stuff filled with daily commendation mods and such, but it's a full set and nothing is lower than level 50. The group was for Foundry and I was pulling threat off of a Columi/Tionese Powertech tank at certain points so I thought I had a reasonable argument that I was doing my job properly. Did it matter?

 

No, I got kicked from a group even without meters there. The elitism still exists, if people don't base it off raw numbers they will base it upon even more arbitrary indicators instead. At least if we had meters then the entire group, including myself, could judge whether or not I was doing my job and whether I was slacking. As it stands now though, I could have been geared to the teeth in Rakata gear and using slash the entire time and probably stayed in the group!

 

So ask yourselves, is this the type of thing you want to encourage? Sure, meters can lead to a certain sort of elitism, but at least it is EDUCATED elitism, rather than people simply making guesses as to what kind of damage you're doing based upon the gear you wear.

 

The simple fact is that removing meters isn't going to remove elitism from the game, it's just going to make elitism more stupid and uneducated. Why is it that no one seems to understand this?

[krinaman]

For all the people saying that combat logs shouldn't be in the game, would u at least agree that a damage log of some sort would be beneficial?

 

Of course there are some benefits. The problem is that, IMO, the cons greatly outweigh those benefits.

[Esproc]

You briefly mentioned people trying to figure out that their aggro is and the first thing that comes to mind is threat meters.

I’m not on record for saying anything about “I don’t want DPS meters” or anything like that. I’m not sure where that’s coming from. I also never said we didn’t like combat logs or anything, or that we would like to hide mechanics. In fact, we posted almost all the game mechanics on the beta forums at some point. It just kind of got drowned in the amount of posts. The thread comment was there mechanics in some of our boss fights that caused, for example, threat to drop randomly. That’s not a good mechanic. I think we’ve learned that. That’s not happening anymore.

 

And a lot of the things that happen in our new Operation — and we’re backfilling these features into older Operations — is clearer telegraphing of what is happening to the player. If a creature is immune to taunt, you should know that. Because if you don’t know that, it’s not fun dying to it and trying to figure out what happened. That’s what I meant. It’s obviously a learning process. Our Operations team is getting better and better, and the game should become more predictable but that doesn’t mean easier.

 

As for threat meters… it’s a discussion we can have at this point. But given the scope of the 1.2 patch and all the other features that went in, we made the deliberate step of giving people a method of combat logging that discloses everything they do and everything that is done to them, which includes threat numbers. It shows you can read the correlation of damage to threat which is like 1 point of damage, 1 point of threat, these kinds of things. You can read those out of those logs and I think it will help the community greatly in understanding what the mechanics behind the game are. If you now take the logs from everyone involved in a fight, you can create the big picture, but right now you have to do that work for yourself.

 

As you can see there is, as has been posted often enough, what you need, by your claims, to do what you want.

 

Now I've used it and know that it is there, a thing called Search and another called Advanced Search, and yet again, people do not truly check and see what is on the Forums or in the threads..There are a lot of posts that get lost because people start the same topic without checking.

 

You can see what ZG has said (Yellow) and what he has not.

 

That said, I do not want a clone of other games. I want this one as it is, mostly (fix bugs and later xpacks). I want this to be an enjoyable game, and to not have players relying on tools to do all the work and playing for them.

 

As for Leetism, we have that within this thread for those who actually read them, and I say the same to some as I did to others, join a HC guild, state openly what you want in a PuG if your guild (HCLite?) is too lazy to do the runs.

 

There are Casual, Moderate, Progressive, HC, and PvP guilds out there, but above all, There are Friends.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Esproc

[-Samhain-]

Of course there are some benefits. The problem is that, IMO, the cons greatly outweigh those benefits.

 

What cons?

 

The only cons I've seen are completely unreasonable ones. People believe that not having meters will suddenly make all players nice to each other and that they won't be snide and elitist. That's nonsense. People that are snide and elitist will always be snide and elitist, they will just find something else to be snide and elitist about. The only thing you could possibly do to eliminate it is to remove the ability to inspect other players as well as make all gear look the same. Otherwise that different color shading on Rakata gear will always signify something "more" to certain players, and they will base their entire judgments about you as a player on that instead.

Edited March 23, 2012 by -Samhain-

[Seregul]

Do the forums restart these long threads automatically or did BW deliberately necro this thing? Edited March 23, 2012 by Seregul

[krinaman]

What cons?

 

How about everyone getting tunnel vision on DPS. Pulling agro, not focus firing, ignoring CC, AOEing breaking CC, tanks wearing DPS gear sloting DPS traits to get in on the DPS race.

 

In short, player's top goal becomes winning the DPS meter race instead of being the best group player for the group.