Class Change Feedback in 5.3 and 5.4

[Gyronamics]

-eric

 

Damage cut on Assault because it's overperforming on DPS according to the goal.

 

In-game reality of it under representing in all areas of the game by a very large amount.

 

I've not been happy about the reasons why players dislike the spec for a long time and you did not acknowledge the feedback from the Assault changes thread.

 

To enhance the point and question, can you explain how the damage output of Assault as it is now, is adversely affecting the game.

 

Bulk data available to players (for example parse databases) tells us it's incredibly unpopular: http://ixparse.com/stats/?boss=&metric=Toons

 

Specific Graph: https://s9.postimg.org/3qpwzbz1r/untitled.png

 

The mechanics of it are entirely the reason for its unpopularity. The mechanics are not changing and the damage is being lowered.

 

What is the justice in that? How does the game benefit?

 

What is the developers position on this difference of opinion.

Edited July 8, 2017 by Gyronamics

[Deewe]

95% of the anger comes from the community instantly seeing an issue and it not being addressed for a year.

I'd say what's frustrating the players now is they have no clues of the supposed target for each classes.

As such whatever the devs do it will never be understood by the players.

 

Also the player feedback becomes mostly useless as again it's only based on players perception. Without even writing it the devs are mostly saying players are wrong in their statement as they don't have neither the target nor the big data.

 

However would the devs quickly tweak the classes as mentioned by Glocko, it would not be such of an issue as it would not mean waiting for months to go from one unbalance to another, hopefully reducing the gaps at each iteration.

Edited July 8, 2017 by Deewe

[Kyuuu]

utter BS we have to wait till 5.4 for your to address DCD and utilities of some certain classes, that we been telling you's are the issue for OVER A YEAR? less then 3 months after people complains about enraged defense on juggs getting 2nd lease on life it was nerfed, mercs got pretty much got a 2nd,3rd, and 4th lease on life and you let it go on for over a year of complaints. and frankly snipers dcd just as bad, both currently are face tanking things they should not be.

 

I guess idea now is pissed off what is left of populations, stop worrying Story/Solo Content and Cartel SHOP and its PACKS and FIX what probabls you's cause in first place cause you couldnt be bother to address the issue correctly in first place before the population that is left gets fed up and leaves the servers more barren then they are now.

 

The longer you's wait to what fix you's caused the more pissed people are gonna get and more pissed the people that arnt gona like the changes cause you let the issue linger on that long in first place.

Edited July 8, 2017 by Kyuuu

[AshlaBoga]

It indicates that they over nerfed sorc dps to garbage and the only useful thing to do with them was heal..

 

Yep.

 

And thanks to the Command System, you're only option to gear toons quickly is HM and NiM Ops, PvPing a new set of 242 or 248 takes quite a few matches. So they rebalanced classes around PvP, and now players with only 1-3 PvP toons will get to "enjoy" the grind.

[DenariusJay]

Talking from a pure pvp perspective... PTs have the ability to apply a dps deterrent if stunned.. no other class in the game can do that... I would say that is part of their defence abilities.. if you want to have more DCD, then get rid of the defensive dps deterrent or tone it down.. having both would make it OP

 

Are you talking about shoulder cannon? If so this is a total joke. Never in all my matches does anyone worry about shoulder cannon being used while stunned... shoulder cannon is wet noodle damage, that's not a deterrent in the slightest bit.

[Andryah]

Yes, I know. I meant an official thread by the devs asking about opinions on a new class or confirming a new class. Sorry that I didn't clarify. Personally, I can only grind the same old content so many times.. I actually stopped grinding when 5.0 came out because they decided to go with RNG & I couldn't fathom doing the same content for new gear again. I only sub/login when there's new content now, because it certainly isn't the dated tab-target & non true action combat that keeps me here. I digress, personally I'd rather see new content though. As for new classes, I agree about having to have a 1-50 story. Knowing BioWare, that won't happen, so I'd settle for new Advanced Classes.

 

Careful what you wish for. IF they did plan a new class.. it very likely will NOT have 1-50 class story arcs, or unique companions, or anything else that players have come to love about rolling a new class. Or.. if it did.. it would suck up all the studios resources shoe horning it into the game and other things that many players want added would get tabled.

[rylanadionysis]

Yep.

 

And thanks to the Command System, you're only option to gear toons quickly is HM and NiM Ops, PvPing a new set of 242 or 248 takes quite a few matches. So they rebalanced classes around PvP, and now players with only 1-3 PvP toons will get to "enjoy" the grind.

 

wut? I just took a char from command 165 to 250 in one afternoon/evening of playing on my day off doing hammer master mode flashpoints during the bonus yesterday.

 

No, seriously, 7-8 hours and i have 7 of my 14 iokath pieces ready for upgrading with comms when I have them (which i have already upgraded two today, since i did about 20 matches or so thus far)

 

I dont get this mentality of how "ops are the only way to do it"

 

O_o

[Kyuuu]

getting to rank 300 is easy getting complete sets going offf crates rng take alot patience, which is not something people have in swtor these days, doing ops is only way to get them fast Edited July 8, 2017 by Kyuuu

[RoboMT]

Off topic but as of today 07/08/2016

 

On all servers the Group Finder is not showing the Operations Daily! Is this the intent of EA or what is going on with the Story Mode Group Finder option that was working fine before?

Also on topic, try cleaning up many of the Environment LoS and glitches on the Republic side as much as attention has been paid to the Imp side. Keep in mind I have max level characters on many servers and on both fractions. Good day.

[Transcendent]

We understand that no one ever likes to see the effectiveness of their Class reduced. It can change the way you play, take enjoyment out of playing that Class, and make you feel slighted if you believe the changes happened because of another type of gameplay (PvE or PvP) which you don't even participate in. We are very sensitive to all of these things.-eric

 

It isn't just those issues now Eric / Keith. If a player wants to change to a different class / discipline, gearing is a whole other issue due to Command Ranks. Is that going to be addressed, or is it going to remain the elephant in the room when you decide to make sweeping changes to players favourite classes? I'd honestly like to know. I came back for one month to see if the gearing issue had been sorted out, I'd like to point out that while you've made progress, it's woefully behind pre-5.0 gearing.

 

I don't like bleating on about it, however as it currently stands it sucks the enjoyment out of playing alts when a player doesn't even have one character at CR300, not all of us want to raid to upgrade easily and crafting is lacklustre without set bonuses.

 

Let's get a little more specific! The following list is not comprehensive, but here is some of the key feedback we have read coming out of the Class change posts:

• Arsenal/Gunnery needed survivability/utility nerfs, not DPS - As we said in the balance thread, we want to get damage targets in line first before we touch too much utility. They did get a slight nerf to survivability in 5.3, and we will monitor both their damage and ability to stay alive going forward.

 

-eric

 

This is the other thing that concerns me. Tons of players are still complaining about merc DCDs (because waaaah they can't kill one due to how they play), is the discipline going to essentially be destroyed by a balance pass on those DCDs? I mean, you're killing the burst potential of the class, so it will not even end up being a glass cannon that may get one or two shots in before it's dead. No self respecting Arsenal player wants to see the return of the class back to where it was pre-5.0, where it was the automatic free kill in both regs and unranked due to weak and in-efficient DCDs (don't forget you've already whacked one of those DCDs with the upcoming changes).

[Transcendent]

wut? I just took a char from command 165 to 250 in one afternoon/evening of playing on my day off doing hammer master mode flashpoints during the bonus yesterday.

 

It's off-topic, but not everyone can sit down and dedicate that much time to playing (let alone in such a mind numbing fashion as you describe). However when you wander into PvP undergeared, it isn't fun.

[Dhurwin]

Eric, thanks for the reply. Glad to see madness getting a little touch up. However I don't agree that Corruption/Seer is

substantially overperforming

What I will admit to is that there's many more Sorc healers running around than merc/operative, and I think that has more to do w/ the relative ease of the class with respect to resource management compared to the other two. Its force pool is also most like most other mmo's form of resource, mana, and so this can also lead to people sticking with what they know, instead of bothering with the slightly trickier Heat/Energy managements. I'd like to know where you're getting this data that they're HUGELY op and/or how you're simulating their HPS. Cause from what I've seen, we're just not that overperforming. There's just a TON of us running around.

 

More often than not when people fail, they seek to blame others for their failures, they seek ANY excuse, instead of saying "You know what, I could have done that better." In this case, when someone can't kill another, they say the healing is too OP. Since Sorcs have the biggest population out of the healers, the finger is mainly pointed at them. A healer's job is to keep people from dying. There's no sense in getting mad at someone for properly doing their job, when they can just as easily be on your team keeping you up.

 

"Having two sorc healers means everyone's immortal" Two sorc healers is aids, fighting over bubbles is never a good time, and will more often than not lead to both doing less HPS because of the overlap of one's bubbles to lock the other out. Unless they hardly bubble, in which case riiiiiip, and you'll probably find that they're easier targets and that no one's immortal. Any time any you get 3-4 of ANY of the healers, yeah people aren't gonna die. It's up to you to find other ways to win, or just kick back and enjoy the damage farm. Try to break a record on w/e server forums you got.

 

I could just say "Jugg Tanks mitigate too much damage, Nerf their Armor, Shield, Absorb, and Defense by 20%. Remove all passives that further buff mitigation." without any reasoning, or proof to back up WHY I think this. Aaaaaand viola you get a busted, useless, why-would-you-ever-play-this-tank class. That's essentially what you did to Sorcerers. You said that the most important, integral, part of feedback is

why

so I hold you to the same standard. Why does your combat team have it inside their beautiful, thick, creative, little heads that Sorcs are SO over the top, that we need a 20% nerf. If concrete evidence was provided and it's clear they're ridiculously overwhelming, then I could see some nerfs going out. But I haven't seen it yet it's mostly just been you guys saying "ya they're op" and 90% of the community going "rofl finally nerds, serves you right" delighting in the misery and plight of others.

 

Please, don't do this to Corruption.

Edited July 8, 2017 by Dhurwin

[ottffsse]

My thoughts on the three specific advanced classes mentioned in this thread, I play all three specs and can comment on specifics.

 

Arsenal merc:

PvP- will still be very strong, reduced dps sustained is less important in PvP than the godly defensive cooldowns. probably needs a nerf to those by only very slightly don't over do it.

PvE- it is where it should be after patch. Played well it has the burst. Good MM snipers and Lightning Sorcs have cleared nim bosses, dps wise the arsenal merc should be in the same position.

 

Corruption Sorc:

PvP: skilled players will still seem "op" to most pvp plebs, calling it now. skill in kiting and knowing when to use burst healing will still make this spec very good. In ranked it will be challenging and sorcs will have to focus what they are doing and not watch youtube vidoes while doing a million hps. Ok, seriously, it will not doubt be much harder against good opponents, but you still have the mobility which gave you the edge in the first place.

PvE: On hm/vet mode no problem. On Nim/mm resources will be strained to breaking point in some fights. Will be hard, only for pro sorcs/sages. (Sustain healing on corruption/seer got more hurt nerfed than its burst imo, we'll see what this does for nim/mm content but if the other healer specs are nerfed soon, wel there will be many less Nim capable healers)

 

Madness Sorc:

PvP- not much has changes, the extra dps is not really game changing, the slight nerf to heals is contra-balanced by the buff to force regen. But it is still a "hit n' run and run some more" game if you are a sorc in an arena. Slight DcD enhancements probably would help in 5.4, but nothing too strong.

PvE: The dps buff will make 248 madness spec sorc, who follow rotation perfectly be able to clear all content and not be a weight on the raid team, but just barely. I did a test on my 248 sage (balance) now before patch. I can do 9,3k-9,4K on average good rng in my opening minute. So Nim Mode Terror from Beyond is already a check (but just barely-really not the optimal choice to go madness/balance, just use mara/operative for easier clear hint hint devs). On godly crit rate my opening minute is 9,6-9,7K. Over a 4 minute 2.5mil parse that drops however to 9.3K if I am very lucky, but 9,2xK is more typical or a bit lower. After buff it will be 3% higher at most? I really don't think the dps buff to this spec is enough to bring it in line to your (bioware) target for sustain dps/ melee burst but what do I know? It is going to underperform on parsley data to specs like Virulence (should be higher than Viru), IO Merc, and Eng Sniper even after buff, not to mention the melee burst classes currently in game. In game it will be a bit closer due to the chaotic nature of fight mechanics and player's skill level. But the technical raw data is still against this advanced class and biased for the others. I have to say that in aoe fights it is a strong spec, but that is a certain niche, and why not bring an extra mara/sent or dot-guardian/jug for those? and I know it is hard to balance the spec for both pve and pvp, so it is fine if does a little bit (100k) less damage single target than say an io merc or Eng Sniper due to it (balance/madness) being a very strong PvP spec and strong aoe (should the damage it does be relatively equal to the other specs in it's category - which is sustain rdps/burst mdps), but don't penalize too much or it will be still unwelcomed in endgame raiding.

 

But the response to feedback so far is appreciated. And I imagine there are quite a few factors for you (devs) to consider while balancing one spec vs another given the relative strength and weakness of each class and so they do not get out of line in one game content or other Pve/pvP .

[Sargrith]

Problem with people complaining about nerfs is because they have been playing OP classes for 7 months and think that that is how that class should be, and now that you are bringing them in line they are complaining.

 

I just hope that in future you will be faster with balancing classes.

 

Now please balance also utilities.

 

Indeed leaving a class vastly op for 7 months is a serious part of the problem.

 

Couple questions.

 

With a nerf to sorc healing, which I think was justified based on their burst heals, but that leaves op heals way way way op for over all healing as only the sorc was even close. Does that mean we should see a nerf, and a hard one on their over all healing numbers? If so could you though look at so,r QoL fixes to make it a more fun class to play?

 

with your improvement to stealth it makes it much harder to deal with or spot in PvP and the two classes with it are capable of some of the top dps. Is it truly your goal to make those two the hands down 1v1 masters as many claim? Or will you give more classes counters to the ability to bring them in line?

 

PT tanks and dps need defensive help badly. When will that be addressed?

 

Jugg dps needs defensive help though PTs should come first. Will that be addressed?

 

Marksmen spec with the new changes might now be the lowest dps, any buff coming their way to make it more even?

 

Those are just some thoughts I get balance will be filled with hits and misses, I want to encourage more rather then less attempts at it.

[Stellarcrusade]

[*]Corruption/Seer nerfs went too far and may also negatively impact DPS - Admittedly those two Disciplines were substantially overperforming and will receive the most significant nerfs in 5.3. But, we will watch their performance closely and make changes if we’ve gone too far. The same is true of the impact on "Sorc/Sage bubble" for DPS. We’ll change it or give them other defensive options to compensate if needed.

-eric

 

I wonder how they will watch their performance if there will be none left playing (at least in PvP). I hope their metric will include how many play in PvP now, versus how many do a month or two from now. Unless the goal was to reduce the overall numbers in PvP, in which case then it will be a success.

 

Frankly, was just going to delete the character, just wondering if I should keep it until 5.4 to see if they realize when the problem with the patch was OP-survivability with merc/sniper the fix wasn't to massively nerf the heal-only spec of a class when that was the only spec left worth playing on said class. I'll wait a bit I think, but certainly not going to PvP.

Edited July 8, 2017 by Stellarcrusade

[Stellarcrusade]

Thanks for the update Eric

 

I don't think people are upset about nerfs (MMO's have to do it), but more about CXP tied to them.

 

It's more significant as people did the grind on mains with CXP and now effectively have nerfed to death mains. In the past it wasn't a big deal, but with CXP Grind being character specific it's a lot more impact to players. All MMO's make nerfs, but you guys forcing folks into the CXP model makes it more annoying.

 

I'm a SORC Heals that has been playing since founder and this nerf to me is basically a "Go roll FOTM Healer". I've seen you nerf us before, but nothing like this. Your approach due to CXP should have been "BUFF" the other healers (Which I think are not that far behind our class).

 

Added: You are saying you will watch things and adjust, but I ask HOW LONG will it take? In the past you have made the same promise and we don't see things improve for 6-10 months. This is also a reason why your team has a very bad rap for OVER doing things and not quickly correcting it once it fails (As I suspect this wide of swing will fail). I'd like to see you and Keith commit to correcting before 5.4 drops any major issues with this nerf bat swing.

 

This is exactly the point. To force Sorc/Sages to switch from DPS to heals because of DPS nerfs, then they put in thousands of hours on the main character only to nerf it into the ground. To be fair anyone who has a sorc/sage at command level 300 you'd have to give them a token to award them the same amount of cxp as they wasted on that class. So I suppose I have like 700 command levels I'd get a legacy bound token of 700 command levels worth of CXP to switch to another character. I know that's not going to happen but that would be the fair thing. It points out what you are taking away, THAT much player effort.

[Stellarcrusade]

Two things, first off you believe this game needs more heals??? You must love easy mode gameplay....

 

Second, you've played sorc healer for almost 6 years, in that time you've been the most overpowered heal spec in the game, so don't complain that they are bringing you in line with other healers.

 

The thing I love about CXP is that it screws over those players that always have to be flavor of the month, which is a great thing!

 

Everything you said is wrong. The game does not need more heals, the issue was the OPness of merc/sniper everyone plays them, and their (especially merc) survivability is high so there is less work for the healer. But the healer still needs to keep himself alive, which is going bye-bye. Healers have to be able to heal themselves and a little to the others too, thats the point of group healing.

 

Sorc healer is a heal-only class. The other healing classes have other abilities also. If you like those abilities you play the healer-hybrid, if you only want to heal, pick whatever the heal-only class is on the game, in this case the sorc healer. Are they supposed to heal better than the other classes, uhm, yes, thats by design.

[Evolixe]

• Arsenal/Gunnery needed survivability/utility nerfs, not DPS - As we said in the balance thread, we want to get damage targets in line first before we touch too much utility. They did get a slight nerf to survivability in 5.3, and we will monitor both their damage and ability to stay alive going forward.

 

When we start talking about 5.4 changes, we will work to do better in keeping the conversation alive around Class balance. This way we can make sure everyone has a clear understanding of all concerns/feedback going into the update.

 

Thanks everyone!

 

-eric

 

That's great Eric.

But I still don't really get the idea that you guys see a connection between how Utilities can and do affect Damage at all.

 

Changing a class' ability to survive in different ways can have a very big impact on how much Damage that class can do to another, or a boss. And if you keep "first" changing Damage and "second" changing Utilities, you'll always be walking after the facts. I mean that is exactly how it has been going for the last few years.

 

You don't see this on dummy parses because dummies don't fight back.

Dummies don't suddenly give you a bunch of adds or a boss mechanic that'll kill you if you ignore it.

Survivability plays no factor there.

 

But when I go with my Assassin to Terror Master Mode/Nightmare, I can stay on all the tentacle slams where everybody else has to move in order not to get killed. This is part of my Utility/Defensive toolkit and it has nothing to do with my raw ability to do Damage. But in this instance it still gives me a DPS edge over the rest of the group.

 

 

The same goes for Mercinaries in PvP.

They can just stand there and take all the Damage while not having to hold back even a little bit themselves.

Pretty much every other class has to go in a sort of Defensive mode where they do less, or even no damage.

 

Virtually no-one I know thinks the level of DPS nerfs the Mercinaries got was justified. It'll be ever more apparent when you address the above stated point where they will suddenly be forced in the same "Defensive mode" as everyone else again. At that point you'll come to realise that this Damage nerf was just way over the top.

 

 

Now I know what the answer would be; "But but, Target DPS!".

Honestly, you guys should let go of that system because it is so inherently flawed..

 

You can deviate from that design point easily by just giving classes a bit less Utility, or a bit more Damage.

They don't have to be put in these "brackets" for Damage.

Just fine-tune class desirability and viability through considering all the facts at once. And not one after the other.

[KittyKat_Karrot]

Everything you said is wrong. The game does not need more heals, the issue was the OPness of merc/sniper everyone plays them, and their (especially merc) survivability is high so there is less work for the healer. But the healer still needs to keep himself alive, which is going bye-bye. Healers have to be able to heal themselves and a little to the others too, thats the point of group healing.

 

Sorc healer is a heal-only class. The other healing classes have other abilities also. If you like those abilities you play the healer-hybrid, if you only want to heal, pick whatever the heal-only class is on the game, in this case the sorc healer. Are they supposed to heal better than the other classes, uhm, yes, thats by design.

 

Justifying sorc healers being OP by classifying the other 2 healers as mere "healer-hybrids". My m8s in discord say thanks for the laugh m8.

[Darthanimus]

The developers must begin to realise what makes an effective class in pvp. The way that classes are balanced currently is only half the story, if the game is ever to be balanced in a way that promotes a happy, healthy and fun atmosphere, mitigation of incoming dps must be added to the equation.

 

For instance if two classes are dueling on an off node (assuming equal skill and equal gear stats) mitigation of incoming damage (including self heals) will decide the victor.

Edited July 8, 2017 by Darthanimus

[LeyDrewid]

TL:DR -- What is dev team thoughts on NiM?

 

Has the dev team considered what this means for NiM Operations? Is there "target dps" number still enough to make all classes all disciplines viable for NiM Ops? If the dps on my NiM raid team consists of 1 lightning sorc, 1 arsenal merc, 1 marksman sniper and 1 virulence sniper, assuming they all can achieve the target dps, will my team still be able to clear all the content?

 

I have this feeling that the true answer is no. Respectfully that feels like a failure on dev team. Shouldn't all classes be capable of doing all content? Shouldn't the only thing that limits a player be their skill level?

 

I am not an idiot, I understand that there will always classes that are better suited for a particular piece of content over another class. I just to know if someone has done the math. Almost every boss has some kind of enrage that comes at a specific time. If you add up all the damage that must be done and divide it by the time, is that less than 5% below the target dps number? Honestly it needs to be about 1k below target dps -5% because the mechanics of the fight will reduce damage.

 

The honest truth is that all content that is HM Ops and below is doable by all classes. Some classes have an easier time at it than others but it's still do able. The single target with mechanics dps check for HM feels like 6k while NiM feel more like 8k. HM Styrak is the exception with a 7.2k check assuming you have 1 of the tanks swap to dps.

 

52 NiM Bosses, 26 8m and 26 16m, has the team gone through all of the fights to ensure that the requirements for the fight can be met?

[DragonLadyK]

Sorc healer is a heal-only class. The other healing classes have other abilities also. If you like those abilities you play the healer-hybrid, if you only want to heal, pick whatever the heal-only class is on the game, in this case the sorc healer. Are they supposed to heal better than the other classes, uhm, yes, thats by design.

 

Look. The other classes seem "healer-hybrid" to you because if you are running an op/merc and your other healer is a sorc (and the tank/dps have half a brain in their heads)... you have nothing else to do. Sorc heals keep everybody green before you even touch them, so you dps until the mechanic separates the group or somebody screws up.

 

Now I'm in a conquest-focus guild, so if I'm running with a sorc and we can burn the bosses a little faster and get in a couple of alt runs, yay, more conquest points on the board. But if I were like the two of my guildies who only want to heal, I'd be pissed. And I would probably roll a sorc.

 

Now, they could buff the other healing classes to make them competitive with a sorc, but good luck killing anything in PVP if they take that route. By taking the sorcs down to where the other two healer classes are, then as the second healer you will be able to do 50%ish of the healing regardless of who you run with. Meanwhile the sorcs won't have to dps if they don't want to. Everybody wins.

[Quraswren]

Im not sure what I find more disappointing in all this drivel but ill try to pinpoint it.

 

SNIP....

 

For a multitude of reasons, Class balance is one of the most challenging communication topics. We dislike having to nerf a Class as much as you do, but sometimes we have to do it for the overall health of our game (as we talked about in our "How Class Balance Happens” thread). We understand that no one ever likes to see the effectiveness of their Class reduced.

 

Are you sure you understand it? As in really sure because you let the classes go on for 8+ months, designed 4 tiers of gear and stats around those classes and did nothing. Do you really understand how disappointing this is to level a class to 300 and beyond just to see this happen? I'm not sold you do understand given this post.

 

It can change the way you play, take enjoyment out of playing that Class, and make you feel slighted if you believe the changes happened because of another type of gameplay (PvE or PvP) which you don't even participate in. We are very sensitive to all of these things.

 

What you are doing can change the way we play. That should tell you immediately your nerfs and the extent of them are a big no no but combine that with taking out enjoyment to the game should have ben the next big things that told you to rethink your plans this late in the game. However, thats not what kills me about your statment above even though they are pretty bad. Just that you think we're sighted because "we believe" these nerfs are because of PVP. Thats what tells me you are not realy sincere in your postings about how bad this looks for swtor. You think it's just something "we believe" when it is clearly because nerfs because of PVP.

 

You're so sensitive to all this that you waited 8 months to do anything, designed 4 tiers of gear around those classes and I'd bet Tier 5 as well. You are no more sensitive to these topics than a lion is to the gazelle.

 

We knew Class changes were a top priority, so we provided insight about how we intended to balance all Classes ahead of next week’s patch. Since we took so long to make changes after the release of KOTET (5.0), we had quite a few big changes to make, and that’s what you’ve been reading the last few weeks.

 

A priority that took 8 months? Man, glad it was so high on the list. Glad you let 8 months pass while people leveled characters to 300 and above just so they could get the nerfs that were so high on the priority list. Wouldn't want to drag your feet on this one during a time when galactic command was tanking and the hatred was already so high of 5.0 that you didn't want to add fuel to the fire and put nerfs in their too. Better to spread out the disappointments I guess.

 

It is going to be rough for some Disciplines as they are way over target, but it is important that we bring them in line.

 

and here is another line that kills me. After hearing bw talk so highly of the data collections and what-not. bw being the ones so in control of the "target" area. How could you have missed it so drastically? How could bw and all that data have missed their own target area for classes so badly that it took 8 months to make adjustments? With all that data and you designed 4 tiers of gear along with these classes and missed the target on every class? Now thats a disappointment. You have it all when it comes to what goes on along the backside of the game in data and you missed it this badly when it comes to balancing. Just how desperate are you to balance PVP while hurting PVE? Pretty desperate it looks like.

 

Additionally, we may have missed the mark with some of the changes and if we went too far or not far enough, you can expect to see additional adjustments in the future. Going forward, it is our intent to stay on top of Class balance so changes will be less severe/sweeping than they are in 5.3 and the upcoming 5.4 patch in August.

 

Are these the same adjustments you made when 5.0 hit? The same ones that screwed over so many when these nerfs hit? Are these adjustments made off the same data collectors decisions from the same tools you used to design what you are now nerfing? Do you know how to interpret the data you have because you leave your ability highly suspect to do so given the time of this. The waiting till gamers put in so much effort to level and get to 300+ GC.

 

What makes this time any different because new tools in data collection isn't enough if the same confused data readers are the ones making the nerfs and are the same ones that designed them how they currently are?

 

I think you see where I went with this. What makes now any different than 8 to over a year ago when you designed the classes the way they are now and the gear that drives them? why would anyone think you have a handle on it now when it's clear you haven't had a handle on things for quite a long time now?

 

the rest is nothing of interest so I snipped it out.

 

-eric [/color]

Edited July 9, 2017 by Quraswren

[josephxp]

That's great Eric.

But I still don't really get the idea that you guys see a connection between how Utilities can and do affect Damage at all.

 

Changing a class' ability to survive in different ways can have a very big impact on how much Damage that class can do to another, or a boss. And if you keep "first" changing Damage and "second" changing Utilities, you'll always be walking after the facts. I mean that is exactly how it has been going for the last few years.

 

You don't see this on dummy parses because dummies don't fight back.

Dummies don't suddenly give you a bunch of adds or a boss mechanic that'll kill you if you ignore it.

Survivability plays no factor there.

 

But when I go with my Assassin to Terror Master Mode/Nightmare, I can stay on all the tentacle slams where everybody else has to move in order not to get killed. This is part of my Utility/Defensive toolkit and it has nothing to do with my raw ability to do Damage. But in this instance it still gives me a DPS edge over the rest of the group.

 

 

The same goes for Mercinaries in PvP.

They can just stand there and take all the Damage while not having to hold back even a little bit themselves.

Pretty much every other class has to go in a sort of Defensive mode where they do less, or even no damage.

 

Virtually no-one I know thinks the level of DPS nerfs the Mercinaries got was justified. It'll be ever more apparent when you address the above stated point where they will suddenly be forced in the same "Defensive mode" as everyone else again. At that point you'll come to realise that this Damage nerf was just way over the top.

 

 

Now I know what the answer would be; "But but, Target DPS!".

Honestly, you guys should let go of that system because it is so inherently flawed..

 

You can deviate from that design point easily by just giving classes a bit less Utility, or a bit more Damage.

They don't have to be put in these "brackets" for Damage.

Just fine-tune class desirability and viability through considering all the facts at once. And not one after the other.

 

Exactly, the main issue people were bringing up wasn't the dps of commando/merc BUT their survivability because they have 3 CDC's that heal from ability/utility. The main issue is that they have adrenal rush to heal to 70% (with utility) and reactive shield heal which is insane heal (with utility) and your new reflect shield heal ability.

 

The issue is in PvP you need to get them down to 20% HP for them to go back to near 100% hp not once, twice, but 3 times off of these abilities/utilities. You need to take away one of them. The best bet is to remove the adrenal rush to 70% hp utility OR the reactive shield heal utility and give it to vanguard which really needs a heal dcd because there survivability in pvp is low, can't tell you how many times we go for the vanguard/PT in 4 vs 4 before the healer because they are easy kills.

 

Take away one of the mando/merc's heal utilities and the class will have a lesser survivabilty. Right now with these changes as is you will need to nerf mando/merc again in 5.4 or 5.5 because of their 3 heal abilities/utilites that are absurd in health regain. Then the class will be terrible once you do that because use nerf'ed the dps so much avoiding the actual problem. Listen to the players not the target dps parse because pvp is not a target dummy neither is operations they hit and fight back where you need to stop your dps output to evade and run.

[Lahandra]

TL:DR -- What is dev team thoughts on NiM?

 

Has the dev team considered what this means for NiM Operations? Is there "target dps" number still enough to make all classes all disciplines viable for NiM Ops? If the dps on my NiM raid team consists of 1 lightning sorc, 1 arsenal merc, 1 marksman sniper and 1 virulence sniper, assuming they all can achieve the target dps, will my team still be able to clear all the content?

 

I have this feeling that the true answer is no. Respectfully that feels like a failure on dev team. Shouldn't all classes be capable of doing all content? Shouldn't the only thing that limits a player be their skill level?

 

Agreed, but I would add the caveat that it be class based, not spec based. A skilled player should know all the specs on the class he's running through NiM ops, and swap when it's fight dependent. But yes, even with that caveat, there are still grouping issues for NiM content due to DPS hurdles post nerf. Still Waiting for the dev team to post the stream of that all Sorc/Sage run of NiM DP we have been calling for....... THE COMMUNITY IS WAITING ERIC!!!!

Edited July 9, 2017 by Lahandra