That's a fair statement, what makes you think the chances are significantly better in MM Ops? My statement is stop blaming MM raiders for gear distribution systems.

To anyone who wants to know about the proposed set bonus, This is largely from a PvE Tank PoV regarding PvE. TL;DR The 6p is incredibly weak. The 4p is likely to be trivialized other abilities. The breakdown The Good: You seem to have identified some of the weaknesses of the class. Jugg's tend to be squishier than their counterparts. Endure Pain/Enure (fake health) is the worst DCD in the game. Specific to Immortal/Defense (tank spec), they are pretty weak in terms of AoE threat generation. On paper this set addresses these issues. The DPS Reality: No DPS Jugg is going to wear this. Honestly, why should they? It's one thing to ask a glass cannon DPS spec that is head and shoulders above the other DPS specs to sacrifice some DPS for survivability. Jugg DPS are middle of the pack (single target) and far squishier than some of the DPS specs above them. If you want to do Jugg DPS a solid, put more survivability in their specs. The 6 piece: My analysis assumes the charges work like all the other charge skills. At best this set bonus gives exactly 1 additional AoE taunt per fight. On a long enough time line you will get more taunts out of the Lord of Pain set bonus. You can leverage this set bonus to get bursts of AoE taunt but I am not sure where that will be useful. Generally, a team will get more out of tanks coordinating taunts. The best thing about this bonus is that you can skip it and still have access to the 4p. 1) If you really want to give Juggs increased access to AoE taunt, have LoP drop the CD by 15s. A second set that plays with the frequency of AoE taunt seems like a bad idea. - Although, reduced CD on AoE taunt is a poor substitute for good sustained AoE threat generation. 2) Alternatives to current 6p: A CD reduction on Saber Ward, some kind of mitigation boost tied to Taunt, remove the min distance on leap, something that changes Ravage to an AoE and/or applies some kind of mitigation property. The 4 piece: I have multiple issues with this set bonus. I imagine the development discussion for this set bonus was something like “let's give Juggs a shroud”. At best this is shroud adjacent because of a technicality. Shroud at its base is a 3s duration 60s CD possible immunity to Force/Tech damage. Shroud's duration can be extended and it's CD reduced for tank. For the most part shroud is superior. In the case of Izax, shroud does NOT mitigate the head cannon damage. I've been told it is because the hit's have increased accuracy. This bonus would still provide mitigation. Because of this I am willing to say the proposed set bonus is shroud adjacent. Unless the plan going forward for MM boss fights includes a lot of unshroudable attacks, then this set bonus only gets worse. Jugg's already have access to an immunity state with Mad Dash. Dash has it's issues but Dxun so far has been very dash friendly. The real annoying thing is that Juggs already had a shroud like DCD, Saber Reflect. Sadly Saber Reflect feels like it has been pushed into obscurity. It is possible that this set bonus will be BiS for some/all of MM Dxun. For that to happen, Dash and Saber Reflect would have to NOT be an option. If Dash isn’t an option then it is likely Shroud wouldn’t be an option and I just don’t see the Dev’s doing that. 1 ) Retuning Endure Pain/Enure to be a good DCD would be awesome. Trying to make it good with a set bonus is kind of lame. 2) Alternatives to current 4p: Whatever your goal for that set bonus was, apply it to Saber Reflect instead. If that’s a a CD reduction or extending the situations where Saber Reflect is usable.

To the previous posters blaming MM raiders for the new gear set, "Flexing" with gear hasn't been a thing since highlighted hard modes in 4.0. If MM raiders want to flex they do it with achievements, titles, mounts and maybe cosmetics. This new gear set will still have a chance to drop off Kai and command crates. If VM Dxun is any indication, MM Dxun isn't likely to be a consistent source of drops. So seeing someone with the new set doesn't mean they must be a MM raider. If you want blame someone/something blame Bioware. They are hoping to use the grind as content. That wasn't the call of MM raiders. Logging in the first day of a new expansion and knowing you have to grind out gear for any amount of time just to get back to what you were doing the day before isn't something MM raiders look forward to. In fact I know a number of MM raiders who quit the game rather than have to grind gear again when 6.0 dropped. The idea that MM raiders are excited about the proposed set bonus is ridiculous. I'll explain why in another post below. I am fairly certain that most MM raiders don't actively try to find ways to screw with the rest of the community. Most of the MM raiders I know are friendly, helpful players who enjoy the game in a slightly different way than the rest of the community.

Force Clarity does not appear to increase the damage of the AoE part of Crushing Blow

Eric, any ETA on the warrior 4 and 6 piece additional set bonuses? Also, if the set bonuses are suppose to be viable regardless of discipline can you stop making the 2p bonuses Accuracy, Defense, Shield or absorb. You could give damage reduction/endurance or mastery/power instead.

Since you don't Jugg, let me help. 1) If Enraged Defense (ED) stays at its current value it more like heal to half, not full. 2) Nothing is guaranteed with ED, you MUST take damage to get healed. This tactical is a CD reduction. How much varies from activation to activation but I did the math for 15m assuming both ED and fake health are used on cool down and DPS get 18 activations and tanks get 26. Currently Juggs would get 10. Clearly you are upset from a PvP perspective. I don't do much ranked PvP, but as I understand it Jugg dps are often targeted 1st. The idea that a tank would be hard to kill doesn't seem that crazy.

Eric, are we getting the additions to generic warrior set bonuses today too?

No CD on retaliate for Immortal could result in insane apm for trash pulls. Good for a laugh not sure if it would be exciting anywhere else. The DR on Threatening Scream still feels more like a DPS set bonus. The CD reduction is worse than current tank 4 piece. I just don't see it getting much play in PvE by tanks or DPS.

Only if they scale ED, currently it is not a heal to full. We have more than double the health and ED only heals about 50%.

Except that it shorted the length of an active mitigation buff, defensive slashes. Each hit increases the buff and refreshes the duration. As a channel it extended the duration from 6s to closer to 9s. Very similar to Deprecating Volts and Dark Protection. Ravage is not some mindless filler.

What will be the fate of the Absorb Shield (AS) from Force Scream? I mention Enraged Defense and medpac not being scaled in an earlier post. I started to wonder if the absorb shield from Force Scream scaled? I remembered that Enraged Defense wasn't scaled correctly at the start of 5.0 so I wondered if the AS from Scream was scaled for 5.0 as well. I asked around for some sample numbers from players in 1.0. Typical NiM Jugg health was about 20k the AS from scream was about 1.2k. This means the scream AS was equal to about 6% of the Jugg's max HP. In 5.10 tank HP ranges from 130k to 140k, lets say 135k. My scream AS is about 4.5k (rounding up). This is about 3% of the max HP. I assume my power affects the scream AS. The meta currently favors all lethal mods which means the scaled difference from 1.0 to 5.10 is even greater. I didn't think to grab values for the scream AS when I was testing things. With all the possibilities for absorb shields, will there be a change to the way absorb shields work? Right now in live, I think all the different sources of AS are incompatible with each other. Meaning the Sorc bubble doesn't stack with scream AS. There are rumors of additional sources of AS coming to tanks and healers, what is the compatibility plan? I would love to see some kind of 3rd bar added that is just AS. It could have an out of combat value of 0 and the the current AS skills just add to it. You could even give it out of combat decay and hard cap like Warrior/Knight class resource. One final consideration for AS. As I understand it, the current system is any time you take damage, it is instantly deducted from your AS then mitigation is applied. So in the case of were you would defend an attack (take 0 damage) you would still lose AS then defend the attack. AS would be significantly more powerful if it took mitigation into account first. Maybe that would be overpowered though.

Since Sin tanks still have a channel, they definitely could. It also costs tanks 3s of the buff associated with it.

You can look at the inquisitor as an example. IIRC the spike DR set bonus is a 6p but it has a +2% shield and +2% absorb for 2p and 4p. The major difference, most of the jugg set bonuses were universal warrior set bonuses. There were only 2 jugg specific set bonuses and even they were discipline neutral. My guess is trying to balance those 2p and 4p bonuses and keep them relevant is difficult.

The bug with the UI and cool downs makes everything seem off. It is hard to say how the game play is when everything seems off. For example, Embrace the Pain appears to do nothing, but if you keep spamming pressing the button it eventually triggers a second time. However the timing doesn't make sense for tank specs. I understand that the balancing isn't finished, but as it stands now, my jugg tank feels much squishier than my sin co-tank. The jugg set bonuses also seem unfinished compared to the sin. === General Observations / Bugs / Potential Issues === The Preserver's set bonus, regen 1% of your max health every 10s, is broken or has a type-o. It currently only regens 0.1%. The new medpac, I assume the "tier 11" craftable one, has the almost the same HP gain as the current medpac. Given that our health has more than doubled it seems a bit low. When 5.0 launched the medpac healed almost 50% of the current max. In 258s it is closer to 33%. The new medpac heals less than 20% the current max help. When you power creep the gear between this expansion and the next one, that medpac will be a joke. PvPer's won't notice because the PvP medpac is % max health based. When earning renown, you don't seem to earn legacy XP. I don't know if players earned legacy XP when earning command xp in the current system. It seems like a mistake if new players are punished for playing there max level toon. === PvE Jugg Immortal evaluation === This is very limited since we are missing a lot. The new style of set bonus and tactical is a more convoluted version of the old set bonus style. Instead of one source of gear augmenting 3 skills you have two sources of gear augmenting 2 skills and 2 static bonuses. Enraged Defense doesn't seem to have scaled to the new max health. At some point after 5.0 launched it was scaled up to where it is on live. It probably needs to be adjusted again. Most of your set bonuses and tacticals are bad for PvE Immortal Juggs. They either have no meaningful use, an underwhelming effect, or are just bad. Is the reason the set bonuses aren't finished because you can't think of 2 and 4 piece bonuses that a tank and a dps would both want? Who thought it would be a good idea to have so many generic warrior set bonuses followed up by generic jugg bonuses? Tanks and DPS have different priorities and limitations. Interestingly the tactical shielding shadow, called Interceding Defense on the discussion page, was suppose to give a 5s CD reduction. In game it does not but it does give 0.5% more DR. This tactical only has use in PvP. The DR makes it possibly good for DPS, the 5s CD reduction made it useful for tanks. I am guessing the DR will NOT apply to guard damage. Force Bound will be okay in PvP. It turns Intimidating Roar into something similar to carbonize. Both have advantages and disadvantages over the other. I feel like it will make IR useful. The set bonus is worthless in PvE since it doesn't affect enemies with boss immunity. The undying is mediocre by itself and garbage in comparison to Sin spike DR. By itself, mad dash is a skill that offer 100% defense to an attack if you can correctly time it. The 20% DR after the dash only helps if you can't successfully time the dash. If the 2s of 100% defense wouldn't cover the entire attack, you would just use a better defensive. Compared to Sin spike DR: -same 20% DR -same duration 6s. -CD of Spike is 20s. CD of Dash is 45s, 35 with utility. -Spike has the added functions of damage (generally not used rotationally for damage though) and is a 2s stun. --Dash has the added functions of damage (also not used rotationally for damage), is a movement skill and damage immunity. -Spike will have little difficulty being weaving into a fight so long as the boss is in range and the Sin has force. --Dash is tricky to use in some fights Lord of Pain is part bad part dumb part underwhelming. For most boss fights this is just 5% DR on a 45s CD. It will shine on some fight, A&E for example will be more like 20%. The DR being tied to AoE taunt is going to be problematic. Some fights a misused AoE taunt might do a lot of harm, think Dread guards prior to burn. Finally, for the longest time Jugg tanks could do something no other tank could. We could pull a ludicrous amount of enemies, AoE taunt and Saber Reflect. How much damage will SR do if we have 100% DR? My money is on zero. Jaw Breaker is bad. Our old 6p already extended the duration of invincible. This just does that in a significantly more convoluted way. Backhand is already functionally overloaded and mediocre (possibly the 2nd worst tank advanced class skill). Changing this to grants invincible for 5s would at least allow players to space out activations. Changing the backhand to Endure Pain would keep it tied to a skill that is in a similar function. Leviathan's Hide is generally going to be a 2.5% DR. Right now this is probably the general tactical of choice. It's a little underwhelming but simple and has potential. Hoard's Makashi Strike is unnecessarily complicated for 5% DR. You are forcing a rotation to maintain max DR which is going to stop Retaliation on CD. This will cause Blade barricade to not have the possible 100% up time. We lost the old 2p so all of this is for a 3% DR gain. Embrace the Pain creates a no option problem. Jugg tanks in PvE have self healing issues. I don't know if this is the best way to solve them but this tactical feels less optional more mandatory. I am happy to elaborate if you want. Please don't fix a fundamental flaw with gear, especially if that gear is suppose to create choices.

This is mostly about the changes from an Immortal discipline perspective. It's long, I'm sorry. Apparently I can't do short posts on the forums. I've hidden a lot of my post behind spoiler tags to keep it's appearance smaller and allow people to skip sections they don't care about. If you intend to read it all, sorry for the extra work. Me and Acknowledgements My Assumptions of the Developer’s Goals A note on Gearing as a Tank Furious Focus Set bonuses, commenting on generic warrior set bonuses here because lazy. Tacticals Suggestions Fundamental Flaws with Immortal that should not be fixed with set bonuses or tacticals