Class Change Feedback in 5.3 and 5.4

[Icykill_]

Hey folks,

 

One of the topics we have seen come up a bit in the past couple of weeks is all of your feedback regarding Class changes and what is happening with it. We understand we have not kept you updated on the threads where we posted the Class changes so we want to talk through what happens next and how we will use your feedback.

 

For a multitude of reasons, Class balance is one of the most challenging communication topics. We dislike having to nerf a Class as much as you do, but sometimes we have to do it for the overall health of our game (as we talked about in our "How Class Balance Happens” thread). We understand that no one ever likes to see the effectiveness of their Class reduced. It can change the way you play, take enjoyment out of playing that Class, and make you feel slighted if you believe the changes happened because of another type of gameplay (PvE or PvP) which you don't even participate in. We are very sensitive to all of these things.

 

We knew Class changes were a top priority, so we provided insight about how we intended to balance all Classes ahead of next week’s patch. Since we took so long to make changes after the release of KOTET (5.0), we had quite a few big changes to make, and that’s what you’ve been reading the last few weeks. It is going to be rough for some Disciplines as they are way over target, but it is important that we bring them in line. Additionally, we may have missed the mark with some of the changes and if we went too far or not far enough, you can expect to see additional adjustments in the future. Going forward, it is our intent to stay on top of Class balance so changes will be less severe/sweeping than they are in 5.3 and the upcoming 5.4 patch in August.

 

Let's get a little more specific! The following list is not comprehensive, but here is some of the key feedback we have read coming out of the Class change posts:

• Arsenal/Gunnery needed survivability/utility nerfs, not DPS - As we said in the balance thread, we want to get damage targets in line first before we touch too much utility. They did get a slight nerf to survivability in 5.3, and we will monitor both their damage and ability to stay alive going forward.
  
• Corruption/Seer nerfs went too far and may also negatively impact DPS - Admittedly those two Disciplines were substantially overperforming and will receive the most significant nerfs in 5.3. But, we will watch their performance closely and make changes if we’ve gone too far. The same is true of the impact on "Sorc/Sage bubble" for DPS. We’ll change it or give them other defensive options to compensate if needed.
  
• Madness/Balance buffs are nice but they are still Force negative! - Beyond the changes already listed, they are receiving a buff to their Force regeneration to no longer be rotationally negative. We have doubled the effect of Sith Efficacy / Psychic Barrier so that each channel of Force Lightning / Telekinetic Throw will restore 8% of total Force (minus the cost). To be clear, that’s a net of +3 per tick of damage or +12 total Force per channel, not including the ongoing passive Force regeneration that also occurs during the channel.

 

When we start talking about 5.4 changes, we will work to do better in keeping the conversation alive around Class balance. This way we can make sure everyone has a clear understanding of all concerns/feedback going into the update.

 

Thanks everyone!

 

-eric

 

I understand you are waiting to release details for 5.4 class balance. But one thing you glossed over and seemed to divert to Sorc bubble was Sorc "total class" survival. You didn't just make a nerf to dps bubble, you made a nerf to their whole self healing ability. This also affects Lightning as well as madness. Nerfing bubble was not needed at all and neither were total class self healing abilities. All I can say is madness better do some awesome damage to keep other dps at bay or those self healing nerfs are going to come back and bite you on the butt. Let me add that lightning better get a massive single target burst buff and not some stupid AOE buff to the rotation or to forcestorm because with those "total class" self healing nerfs, lightning is going to be toast in pvp. Without some substantial buffs to it in 5.4 you may as well just remove the spec altogether.

I do hope you are listening to this info and feed back from multiple experienced players regarding lightning Sorcs, it's been constantly posted from both pvp and pve perspectives and is the lowest performing class in the game. None of us lightning Sorcs can comprehend why you havent made it a priority in 5.3. But might I suggest you post the proposed changes to lightning with in a week of 5.3 launching because there are a number of us deciding if we should just scrap it and not bother grinding anymore CXP.

[ivanhedgehog]

I feel like people need to chill a bit.

 

I understand not wanting to have your class be nerfed. I also understand criticism in regards to how Bioware Austin does class balance but additional changes can happen in the next patch. If Bioware Austin missed the mark this time they can try again for their next patch. I agree with criticism of course but no need to get emotional. It'll eat you up.

 

If that is the case then I am sure bioware wont miss the revenue from the lost subscriptions at all, After all they may make fixes in 3 or 4 months and maybe those people(and their dollars) might come back. it was evidently ok in december so it must be ok now.

Edited July 8, 2017 by ivanhedgehog

[FullRacks]

Not sure where exactly to provide class balance feedback....but I'd love it if the Dev's take a look at the discrepancy of DCD effectiveness between MERCENARY and POWERTECH.

 

The survivability provided by DCD's between the two are a joke - Merc's have 3 DCD's which pretty much heal them to full, a cleanse, and an escaping dash, whilst PT's have.....2 DCD's of which one keeps you on 35% hp for 8s.

 

Dunno, seems pretty obvious things are out of whack.

[Icykill_]

Not sure where exactly to provide class balance feedback....but I'd love it if the Dev's take a look at the discrepancy of DCD effectiveness between MERCENARY and POWERTECH.

 

The survivability provided by DCD's between the two are a joke - Merc's have 3 DCD's which pretty much heal them to full, a cleanse, and an escaping dash, whilst PT's have.....2 DCD's of which one keeps you on 35% hp for 8s.

 

Dunno, seems pretty obvious things are out of whack.

 

Talking from a pure pvp perspective... PTs have the ability to apply a dps deterrent if stunned.. no other class in the game can do that... I would say that is part of their defence abilities.. if you want to have more DCD, then get rid of the defensive dps deterrent or tone it down.. having both would make it OP

[Nothing_Shines]

It indicates that they over nerfed sorc dps to garbage and the only useful thing to do with them was heal.. So of course people respeced to heal. Arsenal is a lot more fun for mercs, and swtor is a game, its supposed to be fun. Pushing poeple away from fun isnt smart. Its like disney deciding that a ride is too popular and making it not as much fun so that people go to the other, less fun rides. Balancing due to popularity is idiotic.

 

I've played merc arsenal since game start. First toon. I have five merc alts, three arsenal. They've always been my favorite class for combat style, gear and skill set animations, but they've been on a roller coaster the whole time from crap to OK to meh to Ok to awesome and now back to crap. It's still the most fun, kinetic class to play for me, since Jango is as close as we get to Boba.

 

I have two of every other AC/discipline (so faction mirrors). I play them all to some extent but have always come back to merc arsenal. Hit them with the hammer all you want, I'm still going to play them, it just won't be as enjoyable and I imagine I won't bother with endgame pvp/ops/mm fps with them anymore once they inevitably become farming targets again/liabilities, because you guys simply refuse to separate PVP stats from PVE. You could lock in PVE to a curve against level and difficulty of content and call it a day, while you then fiddle with PVP until that completely different, more dynamic environment is as close to balanced as you can make it. Or you could do what you always have and rob Peter to pay Paul.

 

BW never just tweaks stats. They'll hit them with a nerf from orbit and forget about them for another 6-10 months.

 

If they want actual, successful, two-way communication, they need to have a dev who actually plays the class every day and does MM content come in and justify what they're doing and how they get their data sets, because I've seen Eric play and he's just not up to articulating the hows and whys or answering questions on the topic. Not a knock on Eric, but when all he has is the talking points others have given him, he can't really go off-script.

 

For instance, does Eric know why the team is using the same DPS range they've had since day one, despite all of the many changes they've made to how combat plays out currently? Escapes? Gap closers? DCDs? Greater mobility from reduction in channels? Does he know why the team is nerfing DPS and survivability at the same time, when tweaking survivability alone would actually change DPS numbers, especially in PVP, and dmg output isn't really the issue there?

 

Sigh. Whatever. I'll let others argue the issues here. Getting tired of every thread being a downer with zero to look forward to. It's pretty sad that I'm left with just looking forward to a few cool CM armor sets or sweet mount with each update and not the actual story content or gameplay.

[Hichitsuki-hime]

*snip*

[*]Madness/Balance buffs are nice but they are still Force negative! - Beyond the changes already listed, they are receiving a buff to their Force regeneration to no longer be rotationally negative. We have doubled the effect of Sith Efficacy / Psychic Barrier so that each channel of Force Lightning / Telekinetic Throw will restore 8% of total Force (minus the cost). To be clear, that’s a net of +3 per tick of damage or +12 total Force per channel, not including the ongoing passive Force regeneration that also occurs during the channel.

-eric

 

Eric, thank you very much for this, but emmm. Are you guys planning to fix the Deathstacks??I want my stacks to only affect MY dots. thank you lol. :D but yes, the extra force is very nice.

[nogoodtomedead]

Let's get a little more specific! The following list is not comprehensive, but here is some of the key feedback we have read coming out of the Class change posts:

• [*]Arsenal/Gunnery needed survivability/utility nerfs, not DPS - As we said in the balance thread, we want to get damage targets in line first before we touch too much utility. They did get a slight nerf to survivability in 5.3, and we will monitor both their damage and ability to stay alive going forward.

 

Thank you for sharing this Eric. I've been a arsenal merc since launch, its been a roller coaster ride. This post is encouraging because it showed that you did hear/read what the community had to say about these changes. My hopes are if DPS seems to low that changes are made quickly to fix it and if changes are made to their survivability then perhaps we could see some sort of dps increase to compensate.

[Deewe]

This is "yeah, we know you're complaining. We'll fix it later if we sucked too hard." The only adjustment being made based on feedback from the players is making Madness force neutral again. The rest of the issues brought up, whether frivolous, ill-informed, or backed by good data from the wealth of information that is parsely, you have shrugged off for "monitoring" to be addressed at a future time. You have already proven multiple times that such fixes do not happen on an acceptable timeline, you can't even manage to change a few numbers inside already existing data files for every class in a single patch to prevent this god awful meta we're about to have in 5.3. Instead we're getting a multi-phase balance which will create more imbalance in the mean time.

Keith,

 

I'm afraid at some point it really feels the unbalance is designed on purpose to make the hardcore grind the FOTM class.

 

An example: long time ago I played a gunnery commando. When it was the weakest class. Soon enough I knew would come the day it would become the FOTM. To be nerfed later on. Sadly I have been proven right.

 

Now let's assume it's not the case and you guys truly want to balance the game. Then show us your hand. As simple as that. Explain to us where/how parsely is wrong, with hard data, please.

 

And again, the pink elephant is the room: the PvP balance ruins the PvE game play as you insist keeping PvP and PvE skills tied.

 

Finally to be honest, as an average PvP player I really don't care about balance at all as I threw the towel long time ago. What ruins the PvP for people like me is knowing the gear gap never puts me on the same level as others and the STUNS spams suck.

Edited July 8, 2017 by Deewe

[Lahandra]

So.... The basic TLDR from this set of "communication" is this..... We aren't doing anything different than we originally stated regardless of any feedback, helpful or not, left in the related threads..... That about sum it up??

[oli-fynnobi]

Make Juggernaut DPS fotm.

Thank u

[YungDemon]

I just want to see a new thread talking about "New Class/Class Addition" for once for this "MMO".

[KendraP]

Make Juggernaut DPS fotm.

Thank u

 

As much as I would love to shine on a vigi guardian, I really don't want the nerf hammer later. Just keep us relevant and I'll be satisfied. If a bit unhappy that mercs and others have a better version of my reflect now.

[KendraP]

I just want to see a new thread talking about "New Class/Class Addition" for once for this "MMO".

 

There have been many of these. Both here in the general forum and in the class forum. As many in the aforementioned forums have said, how would they address the class stories / character background and so on that is in this game. Furthermore they have to consider where to devote their resources. I personally would prefer they address known issues and balance than add something for the sake of saying it's new.

 

Note I haven't played any other mmo so I really can't make a comparison. But not having a 1-50 story would ruin it for me.

[YungDemon]

There have been many of these. Both here in the general forum and in the class forum. As many in the aforementioned forums have said, how would they address the class stories / character background and so on that is in this game. Furthermore they have to consider where to devote their resources. I personally would prefer they address known issues and balance than add something for the sake of saying it's new.

 

Note I haven't played any other mmo so I really can't make a comparison. But not having a 1-50 story would ruin it for me.

 

Yes, I know. I meant an official thread by the devs asking about opinions on a new class or confirming a new class. Sorry that I didn't clarify. Personally, I can only grind the same old content so many times.. I actually stopped grinding when 5.0 came out because they decided to go with RNG & I couldn't fathom doing the same content for new gear again. I only sub/login when there's new content now, because it certainly isn't the dated tab-target & non true action combat that keeps me here. I digress, personally I'd rather see new content though. As for new classes, I agree about having to have a 1-50 story. Knowing BioWare, that won't happen, so I'd settle for new Advanced Classes.

[Aetideus]

Accepting the feedback that dps nerf on Arsenal is not what the community expected and over-nerfing Sorc hps is positive reaction.

 

Actually, as of arsenal, sorc performance in pvp is based on utilities not hps.

Edited July 8, 2017 by Aetideus

[Hichitsuki-hime]

Yeah, what I want for Madness is more in the realm of a rework than a balancing patch can be expected to address. I'd rather see the rotation go force neutral than continue the way it is I suppose, I just want to see a system implemented that rewards proper management rather than taking resource use out of the question altogether. It's uninteresting, lowers the skill cap, and is generally lazy design.

 

and what I want for Madness is for it to actually perform on the same level as the other specs they mentioned in the same bracket. such as:

Melee Burst/Ranged Sustained Damage Dealers (at the target DPS)

Advanced Prototype Powertech / Tactics Vanguard

Carnage Marauder / Combat Sentinel

Concealment Operative / Scrapper Scoundrel

Deception Assassin / Infiltration Shadow

Engineering Sniper / Saboteur Gunslinger

Innovative Ordnance Mercenary / Assault Specialist Commando

Madness Sorcerer / Balance Sage

Rage Juggernaut / Focus Guardian

 

so far it looks like it ain't gonna happen. certainly not if they are ok with giving a buff to a passive that's broken to begin with. i am however ok wiht not running out of force before i can even kill a 4 mil dummy lol (for example)

[fifteendollers]

I love playing the same fun content over and over. I can play fun content for years and years. Fun content never gets boring.

[supertimtaf]

Hey there, if any devs hasn't already taken a look at this topic, it's a brief summary of the feedback for every class change that someone made.

I would love to see your answer of these global feedback since some issues (like the one with Deathmark) weren't adressed, or even talked about.

Is it because you don't intend to change some of the concern (for now ?) or is it because you dit not see it as a "major issue" ?

 

I believe it wouldn't be bad to, at least, acknowledge that you've seen everything that is said here since it's, for what I've seen, the most complete summary of every class change's feedback

 

As for the rest, good to know that you're okay with correcting some changes that could be bad in the future. (And yay, finally, No more negative Force Regen for Madness ! )

[AlrikFassbauer]

I think players are wrong because players are biased. Players don't want balance, they want to be overpowered. Players cry over nerfs because they don't want to be balanced, they want to be overpowered. Players reroll the FOTM because they don't want to be balanced, they want to be overpowered. Players don't care about playing a class they enjoy, they only care about being overpowered. Guilds will kick you from operations because they don't care if you want to play the class you enjoy, they want you to play the class that's overpowered.

 

I tend to agree here - and it says a LOT about our current culture that people want to rather play superheroes !

[DarkSaberMaster]

So.... The basic TLDR from this set of "communication" is this..... We aren't doing anything different than we originally stated regardless of any feedback, helpful or not, left in the related threads..... That about sum it up??

 

That about sums it up.

[Glocko]

Closely monitoring balance and making small changes quickly when warranted is all we can hope for

 

95% of the anger comes from the community instantly seeing an issue and it not being addressed for a year. How much anger would there be if they nerfed the sniper slow spam and merc DPS survivability and sorc heals a bit in a reasonable time frame? I never understood why it takes a year to modify a slow from 70% to 50 or reducing a self heal by 20%. I would love to see slight changes on a bi-weekly basis. (Slight being a keyword there)

 

 

 

Great news that there will be a new approach taken.

[KendraP]

Closely monitoring balance and making small changes quickly when warranted is all we can hope for

 

95% of the anger comes from the community instantly seeing an issue and it not being addressed for a year. How much anger would there be if they nerfed the sniper slow spam and merc DPS survivability and sorc heals a bit in a reasonable time frame? I never understood why it takes a year to modify a slow from 70% to 50 or reducing a self heal by 20%. I would love to see slight changes on a bi-weekly basis. (Slight being a keyword there)

 

 

 

Great news that there will be a new approach taken.

 

So much this. There are huge swings of the nerf hammer every 6 months or so when smaller changes more often will help the situation more.

[cagthehack]

Closely monitoring balance and making small changes quickly when warranted is all we can hope for

 

95% of the anger comes from the community instantly seeing an issue and it not being addressed for a year. How much anger would there be if they nerfed the sniper slow spam and merc DPS survivability and sorc heals a bit in a reasonable time frame? I never understood why it takes a year to modify a slow from 70% to 50 or reducing a self heal by 20%. I would love to see slight changes on a bi-weekly basis. (Slight being a keyword there)

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This is spot on. And probably the cause of much of the anger from the players. And not just in pvp. Obvious issues/bugs have been reported only to not see action for a year (or more). But have an issue with the CC, and there's an emergency hot fix. That's messed up.

[frosttj]

Thank you for telling us upfront that you're not fixing the issues the majority of us want fixed. I wish I could push out garbage then not fix it for nine months at my job and not get fired. You guys got it made down there at BW Austin. Ya'll get dental down there? I might have to throw out a resumee. Edited July 8, 2017 by frosttj

[supertimtaf]

Closely monitoring balance and making small changes quickly when warranted is all we can hope for

 

95% of the anger comes from the community instantly seeing an issue and it not being addressed for a year. How much anger would there be if they nerfed the sniper slow spam and merc DPS survivability and sorc heals a bit in a reasonable time frame? I never understood why it takes a year to modify a slow from 70% to 50 or reducing a self heal by 20%. I would love to see slight changes on a bi-weekly basis. (Slight being a keyword there)

 

This is so true, would love this too.

But I guess it's too much to ask for quick small changes and quick testing in two weeks to a class balance team, who must have several obligation other than doing class balance. ^^

I'm just being sarcastic, I know but that's true, I don't think that changing a slow from 70% to 50% can be really hard and long to put in place.

"Yeah, we may need intensive testing in real situation before releasing it"...

In my opinion, this is not true, since no testing in "real situation" has been made for a long time (except when it's about Operation Boss on a PTS).

This is not hard to see, no dps sorc can clear Master mode content since 5.0... clearly, no testing in real situation, otherwise it could have been prevented.

 

But it's alright, who plays dps sorcerer anyway ? It's not like it's one of the most played class in the game

Edited July 8, 2017 by supertimtaf