Class Change Feedback in 5.3 and 5.4

[fifteendollers]

I agree, which means Parsley is actually showing better numbers for all classes than what the average in game would be. That makes their planned nerfs even more foolish

 

What? Either they are balancing around Parsley or they aren't. Make up your mind.

[Exly]

So, what you are basically saying is that you hear what we say, and you understand some of the points that we make, but you have internal targets based on outdated time on target issues that where in place when the game launched (before you added more gap closers and improved movement with things like op rolls), and because of that you want some classes to under perform in the game while others are designed to over perform.

 

p.s. You should know that I do not feel slighted by the changes that you made. It makes no difference to me if you made them for PvE or for PvP, however, I am angry at you for some of the changes that I feel were done for the wrong reason, or were too harsh, and I know others that are angry as well, and I strongly suspect that you have made many other people angry as well, and that is not good for the overall health of the game.

[J_McSkill]

I'm a SORC Heals that has been playing since founder and this nerf to me is basically a "Go roll FOTM Healer". I've seen you nerf us before, but nothing like this. Your approach due to CXP should have been "BUFF" the other healers (Which I think are not that far behind our class).

 

Two things, first off you believe this game needs more heals??? You must love easy mode gameplay....

 

Second, you've played sorc healer for almost 6 years, in that time you've been the most overpowered heal spec in the game, so don't complain that they are bringing you in line with other healers.

 

The thing I love about CXP is that it screws over those players that always have to be flavor of the month, which is a great thing!

[Chemists]

And still no mention of Carnage/Combat, I don't think their testing team knows Clipping exists.

[fifteendollers]

Hey folks,

 

One of the topics we have seen come up a bit in the past couple of weeks is all of your feedback regarding Class changes and what is happening with it. We understand we have not kept you updated on the threads where we posted the Class changes so we want to talk through what happens next and how we will use your feedback.

 

For a multitude of reasons, Class balance is one of the most challenging communication topics. We dislike having to nerf a Class as much as you do, but sometimes we have to do it for the overall health of our game (as we talked about in our "How Class Balance Happens” thread). We understand that no one ever likes to see the effectiveness of their Class reduced. It can change the way you play, take enjoyment out of playing that Class, and make you feel slighted if you believe the changes happened because of another type of gameplay (PvE or PvP) which you don't even participate in. We are very sensitive to all of these things.

 

We knew Class changes were a top priority, so we provided insight about how we intended to balance all Classes ahead of next week’s patch. Since we took so long to make changes after the release of KOTET (5.0), we had quite a few big changes to make, and that’s what you’ve been reading the last few weeks. It is going to be rough for some Disciplines as they are way over target, but it is important that we bring them in line. Additionally, we may have missed the mark with some of the changes and if we went too far or not far enough, you can expect to see additional adjustments in the future. Going forward, it is our intent to stay on top of Class balance so changes will be less severe/sweeping than they are in 5.3 and the upcoming 5.4 patch in August.

 

Let's get a little more specific! The following list is not comprehensive, but here is some of the key feedback we have read coming out of the Class change posts:

• Arsenal/Gunnery needed survivability/utility nerfs, not DPS - As we said in the balance thread, we want to get damage targets in line first before we touch too much utility. They did get a slight nerf to survivability in 5.3, and we will monitor both their damage and ability to stay alive going forward.
  
• Corruption/Seer nerfs went too far and may also negatively impact DPS - Admittedly those two Disciplines were substantially overperforming and will receive the most significant nerfs in 5.3. But, we will watch their performance closely and make changes if we’ve gone too far. The same is true of the impact on "Sorc/Sage bubble" for DPS. We’ll change it or give them other defensive options to compensate if needed.
  
• Madness/Balance buffs are nice but they are still Force negative! - Beyond the changes already listed, they are receiving a buff to their Force regeneration to no longer be rotationally negative. We have doubled the effect of Sith Efficacy / Psychic Barrier so that each channel of Force Lightning / Telekinetic Throw will restore 8% of total Force (minus the cost). To be clear, that’s a net of +3 per tick of damage or +12 total Force per channel, not including the ongoing passive Force regeneration that also occurs during the channel.

 

When we start talking about 5.4 changes, we will work to do better in keeping the conversation alive around Class balance. This way we can make sure everyone has a clear understanding of all concerns/feedback going into the update.

 

Thanks everyone!

 

-eric

 

Here we have Bioware having to repeat themselves because people didn't bother to listen to them the first time.

[Exly]

Here we have Bioware having to repeat themselves because people didn't bother to listen to them the first time.

 

I listened to them, but I did not agree with them. They are repeating themselves so that they can say that they responded to us in order to appease people, not to further conversation on the issues. They don't have to repeat themselves, but a good two way conversation would be nice.

[fifteendollers]

I listened to them, but I did not agree with them. They are repeating themselves so that they can say that they responded to us in order to appease people, not to further conversation on the issues. They don't have to repeat themselves, but a good two way conversation would be nice.

 

A two way conversation will never work, because you'll never agree with Bioware.

[JediBoadicea]

First of all, I just want to thank you and Keith and the whole dev team for your continuing emphasis on communication here and elsewhere. It really is appreciated, and for the first time in the history of the game I actually feel like there's substantive two way communication happening, and that's a great feeling.

 

I take the points in your post, and understand that you need to see the impact from your planned changes and then will adjust as needed. This is reasonable on paper, but I just hope you really are able to track it in practice, and not have it fall by the wayside while all the tasks in the pipe now become tasks on your plate that need priority.

 

[*]Corruption/Seer nerfs went too far and may also negatively impact DPS - Admittedly those two Disciplines were substantially overperforming and will receive the most significant nerfs in 5.3. But, we will watch their performance closely and make changes if we’ve gone too far. The same is true of the impact on "Sorc/Sage bubble" for DPS. We’ll change it or give them other defensive options to compensate if needed.

 

I'm one of those who felt these nerfs went too far, and that they did feel balanced for PVP at the expense of PVE. I understand that perception is everything and often misleading. But this is also something I've talked about a lot with other players, both in my guilds and out of them, and the general feeling is very much this: that we feel like these changes are not actively being tested in Master Mode PVE prior to being rolled out. In fact, there's a feeling like Master Mode content doesn't get much testing at all.

 

For example, Chapter 2 of KOTET in MM -- our guild has people in full BIS 248 gear who were playing through all the MM chapters just fine, but the final fight in that Chapter specifically could not be passed solo, and it took us seven tries with TWO players and TWO influence 50 companions to pass it. There is something seriously wrong there, and it makes me question if MM content is actually fully tested, or if it's only tested in Veteran and then the numbers are tweaked up from there and set free into the wild as-is.

 

That's just one example, but you get that feeling in other Master Mode content as well.

 

As I said, I know that perception is often wrong, but I feel compelled to call it out, to emphasize my hope that these balance changes really are being tested in Master Mode PVE content. There are some MM Uprisings (Destroyer of Worlds 1st boss fight, Divided We Fall last boss fight, Trial and Error in its entirety) where keeping the party alive as a Sage healer is extremely challenging right now as it is, and in those circumstances the current balance for Sage healer feels spot on for something that is supposed to be extremely challenging. But you cut back on Sage healing as severely as 5.3 will, and suddenly that looks less like a challenge and more like a brick wall. That's to say nothing of some of the extended MM Ops fights.

 

So I guess... whatever monitoring you do after 5.3 drops, please also monitor results in Master Mode content too, and take that feedback! I mean... if healing in PVP is the chief concern, you could just slap a negative bolster debuff on everyone that decreases healing by a set percentage across the board, and that would feel less impactful than many of these nerfs!

[menofhorror]

I feel like people need to chill a bit.

 

I understand not wanting to have your class be nerfed. I also understand criticism in regards to how Bioware Austin does class balance but additional changes can happen in the next patch. If Bioware Austin missed the mark this time they can try again for their next patch. I agree with criticism of course but no need to get emotional. It'll eat you up.

[Andryah]

I feel like people need to chill a bit.

 

I understand not wanting to have your class be nerfed. I also understand criticism in regards to how Bioware Austin does class balance but additional changes can happen in the next patch. If Bioware Austin missed the mark this time they can try again for their next patch. I agree with criticism of course but no need to get emotional. It'll eat you up.

 

^^ Very much agree.

 

Some posters act like this is a negotiation and that players can set terms of said negotiation. The reality is that it is NOT a negotiation between studio and players.

 

Some posters seem to think that their feedback deserves to be applied and implemented strictly because that is what they want. The reality is they will listen to feedback, but listening =/= implementing.

 

You can (and should) provide good feedback, with clarity and make a case for your feedback, and absent emotion and ranting.....but at the end of the day... they have to balance the needs of a broad range of players, as well as the short term and long term goals the studio has for the game, as well as balancing resources etc. etc.

 

People need to learn some boundaries and roles in the studio < > player feedback and stop treating it as though you were the sole stockholder in EA and can dictate anything.

[Andryah]

I listened to them, but I did not agree with them. They are repeating themselves so that they can say that they responded to us in order to appease people, not to further conversation on the issues. They don't have to repeat themselves, but a good two way conversation would be nice.

 

That's cute. Exactly what does that get you at the end of the day?

 

They are not just repeating themselves, but expanding some on their earlier comments. And are doing so because a good number of people in the forum over the last week have specifically asked them to do so.

 

Define two way communication in the context of a one-2-many_thousands which is the context of any dialog between a studio and it's players. Because the reality is.. they cannot have a two way communication with every player. It's simply not possible. Hence your rhetoric is inappropriate in context.

 

But of course you are "special" and will demand they listen specifically to you and heed your advice.. right?

Edited July 8, 2017 by Andryah

[Andryah]

You can go to Parsley and see what some very specific people intentionally uploaded to parsley. You can see what very good RNG can do, and what exceptionally skilled players can do, some of them. That is not representitive of the norm or the average. People don't generally get 50% critical hits/heals.

 

Even if there is 20 parses up for a section, what is that, maybe less than 1% of the actual number of people who play that spec around the world?

 

 

I've used parsely too. I never once uploaded an average performance parse, or any of the 19 wipes on NiM Boss X before getting the clear.

 

Parsley is a 3rd party website. The game does not use it for it's internal metrics. If we use parsely for class balance, Lighting Sorcs need a DPS nerf. How many times have you matched the number one highest parse? Most people don't. You don't base averages on the best.

 

Parsley is great for a learning tool, to compare rotations and such, and to get some performance ideas and it's good for bragging rights. Most people aren't the best of the best. Got some very skilled players on there, no doubt, but they shouldn't be used as the standard.

 

It's also completely PVE based, and has no representation of PVP, you know, the other part of the game. Parses mean zero in PVP.

 

+10 for logic, reason, and for being sensible rather than insensible.

[Andryah]

Hey folks,

 

One of the topics we have seen come up a bit in the past couple of weeks is all of your feedback regarding Class changes and what is happening with it.............

 

-----

 

-eric

 

This is much appreciated Eric.

 

Gutsy putting it in the forum right before the weekend... where most of the forum mischief and drama percolates to world class levels. I suspect though you will be keeping an eye on both the thread and the /report queue through the weekend though.

Edited July 8, 2017 by Andryah

[zerglord]

Problem with people complaining about nerfs is because they have been playing OP classes for 7 months and think that that is how that class should be, and now that you are bringing them in line they are complaining.

 

I just hope that in future you will be faster with balancing classes.

 

Now please balance also utilities.

Edited July 8, 2017 by zerglord

[wainot-keel]

There's a difference between EHPS and burst healing. Sure a sorc might have had slightly higher EHPS than intended, but their burst healing was weaker than the other 2 classes. With the new nerfs, stuff like the NiM Raptus healing challenge will encourage people to leave their sorcs and bring a merc instead.

 

What ? Are you saying sorc burst healing is weaker than operative one ?

[azamba]

The IO Merc who just got nerfed pointing fingers at the mDPS classes two of which are in the "on target DPS" cateogory.

 

How shocking.

 

Deception Assassin and Marauders have been repeatedly sighted from 5.0 till present as the most balanced DPS specs in the game. Now that the ranged have got nerf they want to point fingers at the melee classes who didn't get buffed going into 5.0.

 

Because OP Ranged got nerfed, doesn't mean we got buffed, we didn't. We're the same as we have been all along.

 

Now they're all crying melee. Pathetic.

 

Please, tell me WHERE did u read that MDPS are on their target dps??

Carnage are in the same category as IO, so is Deception! So they should do about the same numbers.

Only Mara Ani is on the "target". OP Lethality is miles above!

 

To all the MDPS that are saying "suck it up", doesn't mean things are fair the way it is, MDPS will perform above MDPS now, and its not the target to do so. This is not balancing.

Just to clarify, I really, and I mean REALLY don't care if your Melee class is doing 11k, 12k, 20k dps...as long as it is in their target dps and au pair with everyone else, meaning fair. And won't be after 5.3. Just wanted to know when they will remedy that.

Edited July 8, 2017 by azamba

[Izisvi]

Please, tell me WHERE did u read that MDPS are on their target dps??

Carnage are in the same category as IO, so is Deception! So they should do about the same numbers.

Only Mara Ani is on the "target". OP Lethality is miles above!

So the retarded here, I'm sorry, but is you.

 

To all the MDPS that are saying "suck it up", doesn't mean things are fair the way it is, MDPS will perform above MDPS now, and its not the target to do so. This is not balancing.

Just to clarify, I really, and I mean REALLY don't care if your Melee class is doing 11k, 12k, 20k dps...as long as it is in their target dps and au pair with everyone else, meaning fair. And won't be after 5.3. Just wanted to know when they will remedy that.

 

From what I gathered it's a matter of time. They don't have the resources to roll out all the balance changes yet, so they chose the most egregious offenders (in their eyes) and addressed those first. 5.3 can't really be called balancing because when you only do half the balancing you just skew things further. So yeah, we're in for a weird patch. Hopefully they don't have to wait til 5.4 to roll out the rest of it.

[azamba]

From what I gathered it's a matter of time. They don't have the resources to roll out all the balance changes yet, so they chose the most egregious offenders (in their eyes) and addressed those first. 5.3 can't really be called balancing because when you only do half the balancing you just skew things further. So yeah, we're in for a weird patch. Hopefully they don't have to wait til 5.4 to roll out the rest of it.

 

Yeah, I think so too. What really grinds my gears tho, is that they said that classes that are not mentioned in the list are probably good the way they are or not a priority atm, having no plans to change in a near future.

Which is bull.

But just want to know what are the plans for those classes, when clearly 5.3 will expand the gap between mdps and rdps for a good amount. i play both range and melee, but really don't want to see them so different in numbers.

Hoping that 5.4 will bring those changes to a fair state.

[MuskyBoy]

The IO Nerf was explained perfectly fine and was justified, based on the stated goals. IO merc was performing equal to every melee except for lethality op and the devs intend for it to be 5% behind.

 

Something perhaps not accounted for is that IO must be played correctly for it to have been that strong, and the difficulty of the rotation is higher than most other classes so not everyone is experiencing the strength of IO currently on live.

 

Moving on.

 

This is NOT feedback. This is "yeah, we know you're complaining. We'll fix it later if we sucked too hard." The only adjustment being made based on feedback from the players is making Madness force neutral again. The rest of the issues brought up, whether frivolous, ill-informed, or backed by good data from the wealth of information that is parsely, you have shrugged off for "monitoring" to be addressed at a future time. You have already proven multiple times that such fixes do not happen on an acceptable timeline, you can't even manage to change a few numbers inside already existing data files for every class in a single patch to prevent this god awful meta we're about to have in 5.3. Instead we're getting a multi-phase balance which will create more imbalance in the mean time.

 

So, great, Madness will still fall WELL short the other ranged dps specs and perform on par with merc/sniper burst specs. Worse, BOTH specs of Sorc dps will now completely ignore force as a resource. Why bother to have it if you just make it trivial? Having a Force negative rotation is not the end of the world if the spec is balanced appropriately to justify it. Being aggressive with Force use should yield higher dps values, for a limited time, forcing the player to decide between increased dps and long term viability. Will a force neutral rotation be a QOL improvement in 5.3? Sure. But it will not fix the fact that Madness will still be significantly behind sniper and merc comparable specs. Even Virulence will still outperform Madness and virulence is supposed to do 2.5% LESS than madness. A force neutral rotation does not fix the fact that madness will simply lack the damage potential it is supposed to have.

 

I wouldn't be so annoyed at the IO nerf if they fixed the AOE issues with this spec. Terrible dot spread and don't even bother attempting to use sweeping blasters unless you have vent heat or thermal sensor override to go with it. As for madness the resource neutral problem is a result of not having a basic attack filler instead having to use consuming darkness (no dps and a wasted GCD). Unless they addressed the basic attack filler issue the actual resource management was going to be neutral unless they over buffed to account for the loss of damage when using consuming darkness.

[Izisvi]

I wouldn't be so annoyed at the IO nerf if they fixed the AOE issues with this spec. Terrible dot spread and don't even bother attempting to use sweeping blasters unless you have vent heat or thermal sensor override to go with it. As for madness the resource neutral problem is a result of not having a basic attack filler instead having to use consuming darkness (no dps and a wasted GCD). Unless they addressed the basic attack filler issue the actual resource management was going to be neutral unless they over buffed to account for the loss of damage when using consuming darkness.

 

Yeah, what I want for Madness is more in the realm of a rework than a balancing patch can be expected to address. I'd rather see the rotation go force neutral than continue the way it is I suppose, I just want to see a system implemented that rewards proper management rather than taking resource use out of the question altogether. It's uninteresting, lowers the skill cap, and is generally lazy design.

[WheresMyWhisky]

Two things, first off you believe this game needs more heals??? You must love easy mode gameplay....

 

Second, you've played sorc healer for almost 6 years, in that time you've been the most overpowered heal spec in the game, so don't complain that they are bringing you in line with other healers.

 

The thing I love about CXP is that it screws over those players that always have to be flavor of the month, which is a great thing!

 

Lol well you haven't played since launch have you? As operatives / scoundrels were top dog for pretty much all 1.0 through 2.0, and mercs were probably better in 3.0.

 

Anyway the sorc nerf as far as pvp goes probably make sense to an extent but its not really the ultimate healing potential of the class that has made it op in pvp its all the escapes it now has I mean why on earth did you give us phase walk? It was pointed out many times when you did this that we would just start trolling people in pvp as you totally overdid our lack of escapes and inevitably made us the best healer in pvp.

 

As far as PVE goes we might be over target but certainly no where near as far as the nerf goes. Mathematically at the moment the healing classes are probably not too far apart given that an operative has to maintain its hots. I can totally accept that roaming is too effective but I do hope you stay true to your word and when you find out the PVE side of it is too much you sort us out in a couple of months not a year later.

 

At this point given the nerf for PVE it will make no sense at all to not take my merc heals instead of my sorc as it won't out heal it by a little bit but a fairly reasonable amount its not even a debate.

 

Just because you had not made changes for ages doesn't mean you have to come in and make swinging changes given the fact you have never got a class nerf or buff even close to right smaller changes would have been more prudent to see if they actually had the effect you thought they would. My fav was anni in 2 when you decided we needed a buff so you promptly gave us around 500 dps then some peeps said fix the double proc bug from the kell dragon relics (you don't realise they did this apparently) which you did and then you had to buff us another 400 dps which ably highlights my point that you generally get this stuff very wrong.

 

Anyway I really do appreciate the communication we now get on the forums I just might not agree with you all the time.

[MuskyBoy]

Yeah, what I want for Madness is more in the realm of a rework than a balancing patch can be expected to address. I'd rather see the rotation go force neutral than continue the way it is I suppose, I just want to see a system implemented that rewards proper management rather than taking resource use out of the question altogether. It's uninteresting, lowers the skill cap, and is generally lazy design.

 

But then you don't want to go the other way and have something like pyro and have 11 fillers in a 30 second rotation either. That's the other extreme and again not addressed.

[Izisvi]

But then you don't want to go the other way and have something like pyro and have 11 fillers in a 30 second rotation either. That's the other extreme and again not addressed.

 

They broke pyro a long time ago and it has been a dead, decrepit thing ever since. There's no synergy to the cooldowns in that rotation and the inexplicable removal of rail shot from the free flame burst proc list was absurd. Pyro is another class that needs an overhaul.

 

But yes, to your point, it needs to be reasonable resource management.

[scardera]

stop trying we know you dont listen to players just look at sorc lightning and marksman right know the fact you didnt buff em is proofs you dont listen

 

another example is the slot machine it was great for a week then you nerfed it into being completely useless and never adressed it again

 

i can point you another 10 example of your incapacity to adjust your contend properly bu t ill stop here

Edited July 8, 2017 by scardera

[ivanhedgehog]

I can look at starparse statistics and show you that Sorcs make up around 50% of healers and Mercs make up around 30% of all DPS, with over 90% of them playing Arsenal. If that's not indicative of some sort of problem, I don't know what is

 

It indicates that they over nerfed sorc dps to garbage and the only useful thing to do with them was heal.. So of course people respeced to heal. Arsenal is a lot more fun for mercs, and swtor is a game, its supposed to be fun. Pushing poeple away from fun isnt smart. Its like disney deciding that a ride is too popular and making it not as much fun so that people go to the other, less fun rides. Balancing due to popularity is idiotic.