Class Change Feedback in 5.3 and 5.4

[DmdShiva]

I can go to Parsely and see the actual in-game performance against the ingame content. It doesn't even come close to what BW claims for Healer Sage/Sorc or for Arsenal/Gunnery. But then, that's been the problem all along. BW comes up with "metrics" that don't reflect reality, then acts on them like they were gospel then wonder why the players are angry or stop paying subs. Somehow, I don't expect it to change any time soon, but you've got my opinion on it.

 

After watching the City of Heroes devs announce a significant nerf to the Regeneration powerset based on their internal testing showing that a solo Claws/Regen Scrapper could defeat spawns of mobs seven levels higher sized for an 8-person team, then, despite the protests of the entire playerbase claiming that this was flat-out impossible, going ahead and applying the nerf after admitting that they'd found a bug in their internal test server that didn't reduce a player's chance to hit against higher-level mobs that would have reduced the scrapper's hit chances by 90% and claiming that the powerset still needed the nerf, I've stopped believing that game developers bother looking at actual statistics from real gameplay; it's so much easier to set up artificial conditions to test against, where optimally-geared characters using perfect rotations against artificial targets that don't act like actual in-game mobs give them the numbers they use to decide where to hand out the next set of nerfs.

[kvandertulip]

Let's get a little more specific! The following list is not comprehensive, but here is some of the key feedback we have read coming out of the Class change posts:

• Arsenal/Gunnery needed survivability/utility nerfs, not DPS - As we said in the balance thread, we want to get damage targets in line first before we touch too much utility. They did get a slight nerf to survivability in 5.3, and we will monitor both their damage and ability to stay alive going forward.
  
• Corruption/Seer nerfs went too far and may also negatively impact DPS - Admittedly those two Disciplines were substantially overperforming and will receive the most significant nerfs in 5.3. But, we will watch their performance closely and make changes if we’ve gone too far. The same is true of the impact on "Sorc/Sage bubble" for DPS. We’ll change it or give them other defensive options to compensate if needed.
  
• Madness/Balance buffs are nice but they are still Force negative! - Beyond the changes already listed, they are receiving a buff to their Force regeneration to no longer be rotationally negative. We have doubled the effect of Sith Efficacy / Psychic Barrier so that each channel of Force Lightning / Telekinetic Throw will restore 8% of total Force (minus the cost). To be clear, that’s a net of +3 per tick of damage or +12 total Force per channel, not including the ongoing passive Force regeneration that also occurs during the channel.

 

Add that Virulence/Dirty Fighting will no longer be viable in pvp due to the nerfs to its burst capability to this list.

[scardera]

It indicates that they over nerfed sorc dps to garbage and the only useful thing to do with them was heal.. So of course people respeced to heal. Arsenal is a lot more fun for mercs, and swtor is a game, its supposed to be fun. Pushing poeple away from fun isnt smart. Its like disney deciding that a ride is too popular and making it not as much fun so that people go to the other, less fun rides. Balancing due to popularity is idiotic.

 

^^ this simple most people prefer ranged dps since Sorc dps are useless now people turned to Arsenal

[Hichitsuki-hime]

^^ this simple most people prefer ranged dps since Sorc dps are useless now people turned to Arsenal

 

and now arsenal got a nerfbat as well >.> it's a never-ending cycle really

[mmmbuddah]

Ok, we got all that before, I think. Thanks for explaining in detail.

 

My complaint here is, What about the other classes that are not receiving a much deserved NERF in 5.3, like Mara (at least carnage), Operative (at least lethality) and Assassin Deception, for instance, all of them are way above their DPS Target (lethality reach 10% above dps target where it should be "only" 5%) and gonna stay that way in 5.3, doing much more dps than everyone else now. One would think they should also be priority since are doing, like all the others that will be nerfed, above their dps target.

Does that seems fair to you? Why aren't they receiving a nerf in 5.3 too? And more importantly, WHEN will these classes/builds see this nerf?

Coincidentally, they are all MDPS...

 

Lethatlity should NOT IN ANY WAY SHAPE or form be nerfed, it would be an absolute catastrophe for pvp.

[mmmbuddah]

There's a difference between EHPS and burst healing. Sure a sorc might have had slightly higher EHPS than intended, but their burst healing was weaker than the other 2 classes. With the new nerfs, stuff like the NiM Raptus healing challenge will encourage people to leave their sorcs and bring a merc instead.

 

Thats a good thing, healin on sorc was beyond broken.

[DavidAtkinson]

Ok, we got all that before, I think. Thanks for explaining in detail.

 

My complaint here is, What about the other classes that are not receiving a much deserved NERF in 5.3, like Mara (at least carnage), Operative (at least lethality) and Assassin Deception, for instance, all of them are way above their DPS Target (lethality reach 10% above dps target where it should be "only" 5%) and gonna stay that way in 5.3, doing much more dps than everyone else now. One would think they should also be priority since are doing, like all the others that will be nerfed, above their dps target.

Does that seems fair to you? Why aren't they receiving a nerf in 5.3 too? And more importantly, WHEN will these classes/builds see this nerf?

Coincidentally, they are all MDPS...

 

Those classes are fine at the moment... They were shadowed by the FOTM Mercs and Snipers. Now with the nerfs everything will be almost fine balance wise.

 

I don't think you should worry about classes that have no self heals, right ? Oerative is an exception Unless you have some learn to play issues. Mara and Sin are hard without a heal.

Edited July 9, 2017 by DavidAtkinson

[supertimtaf]

Those classes are fine at the moment... They were shadowed by the FOTM Mercs and Snipers. Now with the nerfs everything will be almost fine balance wise.

 

I don't think you should worry about classes that have no self heals, right ? Oerative is an exception Unless you have some learn to play issues. Mara and Sin are hard without a heal.

 

I can only agree. But again, like tons of people said, the problem wasn't about dps. It was more about those "3 more health bar". Merc were fine in 4.0 without all of this self heal.

 

BW is cute, looking at players parse and saying "dang, they're hurting, we should change this, it doesn't correspond with our top secret target dps !"

 

I still wonder what are those target dps... I'm sure it's "9k2" or something like this on a 500k hp dummy with armor reduction... Like someone said, you shouldn't balance class and dps based on pure dummy-fighting but instead balance it so that every content of the game is doable with every class in every spec... This isn't the case since 4.0... Or maybe even before but I don't recall it.

 

Thats a good thing, healin on sorc was beyond broken.

 

The only thing that was broken was, in my opinion, the cooldown on some spell like Roaming Mend and it's low cost. Nerfing healing power wasn't the best option to let this class "good" or even comparable to other heal... But hey, it's way more easier to just nerf everything without appropriate testing for every option. Class balance team must be really busy working on a better game, since the only thing they found for nerfing sorcerer was this.

And I'm not even talking about engineering sniper

Edited July 9, 2017 by supertimtaf

[jeronimocollares]

Swtor need more

 

- You need to change that old concept about character animation, More fluidity of character movements, models including camera effects, blur, depth of field, etc.;

- Character need to learn to 'block', to do 'roll dodge' (to be more furtive);

- Art direction needs to be improved for new engines, better graphics quality, composition of scenery, lights, post processing, etc .;

- Character can be better, better modeled. We are almost in the year 2018 and the game still has the look of the beginning of the second decade of the 20th century;

- Once we had more complexity in the composition of armor, sets, etc, this involved a lot of people, I think EA games can change that, making the game more competitive.

 

Etc..

[Tsillah]

[*]Corruption/Seer nerfs went too far and may also negatively impact DPS - Admittedly those two Disciplines were substantially overperforming and will receive the most significant nerfs in 5.3. But, we will watch their performance closely and make changes if we’ve gone too far. The same is true of the impact on "Sorc/Sage bubble" for DPS. We’ll change it or give them other defensive options to compensate if needed.

 

When you inform someone that they are going to be handed an explosive, there are 2 options that I want you to consider.

 

1) You diffuse the explosive before handing it to them. It's not nice but at least it's not going to blow up in anyone's faces.

2) You give them the explosive device and see if they can figure out if they can keep it from exploding in their face but promise to fix it after it blows up in their faces.

 

I doubt you want to answer this but I really am still amazed that you guys prefer to use option 2. Did you not learn from 5.0 and Galactic Command in particular that this is a costly approach for everyone involved?

 

I submit to you that the sorceror is an iconic class that gets a lot of attention even without looking at any numbers. People just enjoy the class because well, you can shoot lightning and such. People who just look for dps or hps will just switch classes. Those who love the class for what it is and represents will be disappointed by these nerfs.

 

Have you not lost enough players I wonder?

[Yezzan]

I submit to you that the sorceror is an iconic class that gets a lot of attention even without looking at any numbers. People just enjoy the class because well, you can shoot lightning and such. People who just look for dps or hps will just switch classes. Those who love the class for what it is and represents will be disappointed by these nerfs.

 

Have you not lost enough players I wonder?

 

A -f&%# - men!

 

Bioware forget that we are all here to have fun. I really do not care about the nerfs to DPS or HPS or what have you as long as I can hop in to any hard mode content and not be a liability to my team.

[Icykill_]

"As Albert Einstein said, insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.”

 

You have to question the sanity of using the same failed balance process over and over for 5 years 🤔

[Evolixe]

"As Albert Einstein said, insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.”

 

You have to question the sanity of using the same failed balance process over and over for 5 years 🤔

 

Over and over, you try and you fail

[Hichitsuki-hime]

Over and over, you try and you fail

 

and really, what they DO need to try is simply have PvE utility choices for PvE and PvP utility choices for PvP. so when u want to raid, u toggle the pve focus and get the pve utilities to choose. and if u toggle the pvp one - u get to set your pvp utilities. :D:D

[Evolixe]

I don't really think that is necessary to be honest, but they do need to change their ways.

Both by method and by frequency.

[Hichitsuki-hime]

I don't really think that is necessary to be honest, but they do need to change their ways.

Both by method and by frequency.

yes there are probably other ways to achieve a GOOD balance, but they've yet to find it tbh. which means something should probably be changed lol. now i'm no game developer, but i know that a situation where any type of nerf / buff affects both pve and pvp at once is not that great. simply because the reasons behind said buffs or nerfs are always :

- this too op in pvp;

- this doesn't do enough damage in ops;

- their defensives too much plz nerf!!

and so ons, and when they nerf or buff things both pvp and pve get affected. and while for one environment it might have been a deserved nerf (or buff) for the other one it's usually not. so in MY opinion it would just be easier to find a way to balance it separately for pvp and pve.

[supertimtaf]

so in MY opinion it would just be easier to find a way to balance it separately for pvp and pve.

 

just remove PvP from the game and replace it by GSF *joking*

 

Well, it could be achievable but would demand to adjust PvE and PvP content, not just the class, but the whole fight as well. ^^ Like balancing some dps check who may be way too huge (Styrak HM) or too low (Nefra NiM) in PvE, or giving a little defense bonus/DR in PvP situation...

But clearly, this demands a whole remake of the game at this point, and we'll probably be disapointed when the full release come out...

So I think it's better to focus on good class balancing for now, still waiting for this btw.

(And still waiting for clear feedback from BW.... But I think I must be hoping too much. :/ )

[SkyEye]

Are you planning to fix a Sages/Sorcs bugged Telekinetic Wave?

[Khiriath]

Hi Eric and Keith,

 

In my personal opinion for class balancing to be hit right, every dps class should be able to produce sufficient actual output to clear all PvE content. I think we all know that HM Styrak is one of the greatest DPS checks in the game. When 5.0 dropped gear rating for HM(Vet) ops was 230. Using the tactic of having only one tank and your off tank switching to dps gear and spec, your 5 DPS still need to put out 7.2k actual DPS to down this boss within the enrage timer.

 

That isn't theoretical DPS or what is possible on a dummy, that is actual DPS which requires time off target to adjust to boss mechanics, and things like the kell dragon going into his spin and taking significantly less damage. Does your "Target DPS" allow for each and ever DPS spec to output the needed 7.2k DPS actual in the recommended 230 gear? If not, then nerfs are not called for, but rather buffs(Here's a hint, there are some classes such as Lightening Sorc and Markmanship sniper that struggle for that even in 248 gear).

 

I have heard and understand your argument that if you buff all DPS to be equal to the higher outputs it will make PvP kills too fast. Honestly what we are seeing and some of us are actually feeling is the difficulty of balancing both PvP and PvE and balancing them together. However, if you want this game to work, then you either have to balance so that every spec can do the necessary dmg in the recommended gear, separate PvP and PvE balancing(like maybe bring back PvP gear) or start nerfing ops bosses so that even with the nerfs, every spec can still reach the necessary DPS at the recommended gear levels.

 

I don't need to be the most powerful class in game. However, I do want the classes that I like to play to be able to put out the necessary damage to clear content without having to be horribly over geared.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Everything you said is wrong. The game does not need more heals, the issue was the OPness of merc/sniper everyone plays them, and their (especially merc) survivability is high so there is less work for the healer. But the healer still needs to keep himself alive, which is going bye-bye. Healers have to be able to heal themselves and a little to the others too, thats the point of group healing.

 

Sorc healer is a heal-only class. The other healing classes have other abilities also. If you like those abilities you play the healer-hybrid, if you only want to heal, pick whatever the heal-only class is on the game, in this case the sorc healer. Are they supposed to heal better than the other classes, uhm, yes, thats by design.

 

I have to agree with this.

 

If its all they do, whether, DPS or healing, they should be the best at it.

 

I have long been a proponent for pure DPS classes having the highest DPS. It doesn't matter the game, I feel the same way about in any game. D&D Fighters should be the best melee combatants [DPS], LOTRO Champions, STO Tactical, WoW Warriors, etc.

 

Merc healers and OP healers do have options [abilities] that are outside the scope of healing. Sorc's should be the best healers on the game. Having the Force should make you a better healer than people who don't have the force, right or wrong, it just makes sense.

 

If you were into the Expanded Universe or Table Top D20 Star Wars game, no question about it, force users are the best healers.

 

In fantasy games, the guy with magic is always the best healer.

 

I'm not saying that gap needs to be huge here, it doesn't, but, Sorc healer should be the best healer. I don't play one, I never have, you couldn't pay me to play one, a healer of any class. This opinion his zero self intrest in it, it doesn't effect me in the least, but It makes the most sense to me.

 

If the healers of any class spec are not able to heal their group and themselves at the same time in PVP or PVE to an adequate degree, there is going to be some DPS specs suffering greatly for it. Obviously it won't be Mercs or Snipers, they'll be just as retardedly OP defensive wise as they ever were, but Juggs, PTs, Maras, and Assy's, we're about to take a turn for the worse I fear in PVP.

 

People who don't think the healing nerf is going to have a large effect on a players who aren't even healers are about to have a rude awakening in the next few days.

 

 

Not to much heals from healers going on, too much heals from DPS specs going on, and they're going to keep on going in. Mercs and Snipers aren't about to get worse in PVP, they're about to get better because the other DPS are going to be dieing a lot more easier with the lack of heals from healers, and they aren't.

 

You can't DPS when you're dead. And when you have three lives you'll still do more DPS even with slightly less DPS than DPS who aren't walking Trinities.

Edited July 9, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[ivanhedgehog]

Thats a good thing, healin on sorc was beyond broken.

 

parses say that you are wrong. they need to balance pvp separately so as to not break pve.

[Evolixe]

parses say that you are wrong. they need to balance pvp separately so as to not break pve.

 

Which parses?

[Tsillah]

Which parses?

 

Not to put myself as a template but when using starparse for example which I have used a fair bit, my hps and ehps were not particularly higher than other healer classes. Strictly speaking operations here, so I have a tendency to believe him on this.

 

As far as PvP is concerned the sorc/sage healer seems to have performed rather well by comparison, but I'm not sure if that's because of the healing output or the set of utilities, dcd's and such that make them perform so much better in PvP, because they tend to be a lot more effective in PvP than operations generally, at least from my experience.

 

So, I really wonder if the people who say the sorc is so op are really specifically referring to PvP.

[Andryah]

"As Albert Einstein said, insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.”

 

You have to question the sanity of using the same failed balance process over and over for 5 years 🤔

 

In most MMOs... balance is in fact hard to do in a balanced way that most players will accept without retort. In this context... trying to balance is by definition insane because you will never get any thing close to unanimous agreement about balance by the player base, and the armchair attacks will always hit a studio.... no matter what.

 

In my years of playing MMOs... the balance exercises that have worked best are phased, incremental, measured, and readjusted style to balance. Something that they actually appear to be trying to do this time around. So I think it is premature to condemn it until we see at least two cycles in the process. It certainly appears to be more thoughtful and focused then past balance changes where they have typically done major revamps and then released them into the wild and have to go back and do major rework once they saw the carnage.

Edited July 9, 2017 by Andryah

[Icykill_]

In most MMOs... balance is in fact hard to do in a balanced way that most players will accept without retort. In this context... trying to balance is by definition insane because you will never get any thing close to unanimous agreement about balance by the player base, and the armchair attacks will always hit a studio.... no matter what.

 

In my years of playing MMOs... the balance exercises that have worked best are phased, incremental, measured, and readjusted style to balance. Something that they actually appear to be trying to do this time around. So I think it is premature to condemn it until we see at least two cycles in the process. It certainly appears to be more thoughtful and focused then past balance changes where they have typically done major revamps and then released them into the wild and have to go back and do major rework once they saw the carnage.

 

I really hope you're right, I really do.. but all evidence, especially their methodology on how they balance points to a clust-F ... especially when you consider that the issues with the classes people have been telling them about since January have been essentially ignored. On top of that they are nerfing things that aren't an issue and don't need to be nerfered... but at the same time totally ignoring things that need a desperate buff.

 

My point is they have been following this methodology on "how to balance" for 5 years. Even if they do small incremental adjustments, it won't be correct because it's not what they doing, it's how they are doing it based on a flawed process that balance isn't based on other classes and is done "parsing" on dummies that don't hit back and don't use defensive abilities to negate the dps.

 

So as Albert Einstein said, "insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.”

 

I can't see this being any different to every other time they've tried to balance using this same methodology. They may have the best intentions to get it right, but they need to change their approach if it is to work properly.