Harm in 12xXP

[Mikahrone]

For a typical Subscriber, 12xXP causes a great deal of harm to any and all meaningful group&social content between 1 and 55.

For typical player, it can remove other players from the picture almost entirely. Average player spends most of his 1-55 by driving from one instance to another while occasionally listening to Jennifer Hale say nice things.

 

GSF, Flashpoints, Planetary Heroics, Warzones.. all these activities have utterly irrelevant reward from doing them, in comparison to 12xXp. Incentive to get involved in these activities is largely gone for many. Besdies the figurative carrot not being there, time to chase it is also missing: Weekend with spacebar is all it takes to get from 1 to 55 now. If you mostly just level one character after another via 12xXP, it is very hard to end up involved in any of the major sub- communities within the game. There just isn't enough in-game time for that. Since leveling is the major beef for huge portion of players..well you figure out just how harmful this is to every social aspect of the game. It is an excellent example of a well loved feature that people embrace and like without realizing or caring what it does to community they, too, belong to.

 

12xXP makes an experience that tears layer after layer of content off players road maps entirely. It leaves you with just a pretty dialogue wheel to spin. It shoehorns people in fashion that makes their overall experience entirely story focused, quite isolated and, frankly, reasonably...dumb.

 

It is extremely ironic how it is Premium and F2P crowd who end up with much more rich, much more varied experience. For them, as collective, levels 1-55 don't just fly by in a single weekend. For them, despite still having far more modest XP reward, GSF, WZs, FPs&etc aren't destined to appear as ridiculously unrewarding waste of time in comparison to 1200% reward of doing storyline. (Yeah. Think about it. One activity in this game gives reward that is one thousand and two hundred percent greater than any other activity. ) No matter how hard you wanna disagree with my claims/observations, I think you have to admit Premium players, as collective, have much easier time ending up with much more varied leveling experience. Game doesn't actively tempt them into utter monotone of one single, often isolated, activity like it does to Subscribers. It takes very little spin to claim premium people actually have much more feature rich game, heh. They are the ones still keeping FP queus, GSF matches, Warzones, etc alive.

 

 

....

PLS READ BELOW TOO!

 

Couple of preemptive remarks&counterpoints usually played when somebody dares to suggest 12xXP isn't coolest thing since sliced bread:

 

Q:But I love 12xXP? I am here for the story and it enabled me to enjoy the story! So 12xXP is great wth??

A: Cause and effect usually differ. It makes perfect sense why BW brought 12xXP. It makes perfect sense why people like it. I'm not personally a fan of it..but neither am I saying it should be moved. It's just that there is absolutely no reason why it should be 1200% more rewarding, in terms of XP given, than rest of the game.

 

Q: Aha! But you can buy an item that disables it! You, Vasflam, don't have to use 12xXp if you don't like! So it looks like your point is moot!

A: It isn't important how quickly or slowly or through which activity I, or any one single player gets his xp. I certainly personally don't care of MY xp. It's just that community is made of collective pile of people. and HUGE portion of this pile will never want to nerf their experience.

 

You are not barred from doing ANY of those things, dont try to blame 12x xp for lack of interest in that stuff.

 

People can now CHOOSE what they want to do. Too bad they arent choosing what YOU want then to choose.

 

Peple spend THEIR time and THEIR money how they want. And you actually dare to call it "dumb".

 

Well, newsflah for you, more people than you think find stuff YOU want them to do - dumb.

Edited September 29, 2015 by Mikahrone

[Faelandaea]

IIf you are arguing against 12XP, are you trying to tell me you enjoy the long and tedious vanilla leveling experience? Not just on your first toon but also on your fourth or fifth alt?

 

They do not need to answer this. I already know their answer and their thinking exactly so let me translate: "Yes."

 

These people believe that you should have to grind all of your alts regardless of how many characters you have, and that you should not be able to enjoy just cruising through a story on an alt. for the sake of enjoying the story, even though that alt will never be in their precious group. They also believe that it should take as long as possible to level, because it took them time to level and it would break the game and send everything into a burning flame if someone levels any faster than they did.

[LordJestR]

If group activities would yield at least similar XP/rewards more people might take part in them.

They already offer better rewards than normal quest and you also get more experience being in a grp. What else more do you want?

 

If they give even better rewards, then people would start complaining what is the point of doing normal quests. If you want them to give more xp, then people will start complaining they out level the quests too fast.

[Knorlac]

You are not barred from doing ANY of those things, dont try to blame 12x xp for lack of interest in that stuff.

 

People can now CHOOSE what they want to do. Too bad they arent choosing what YOU want then to choose.

 

Peple spend THEIR time and THEIR money how they want. And you actually dare to call it "dumb".

 

Well, newsflah for you, more people than you think find stuff YOU want them to do - dumb.

 

If you're quoting him, at least read his post maybe?

 

No one wants to just get rid of 12xXP for everyone. And no one wants to bar you from leveling up quickly.

The problem is that for people who want to speed through the game/stories for whatever reason, doing the 12xXP class quests is the heavily biased option.

If participating in group activities yielded similar rewards, more people would probably do so, helping to shorten queue times and promoting social interactions/community building along the way.

[Mikahrone]

They already offer better rewards than normal quest and you also get more experience being in a grp. What else more do you want?

 

If they give even better rewards, then people would start complaining what is the point of doing normal quests. If you want them to give more xp, then people will start complaining they out level the quests too fast.

 

Upscaling/downscaling/bolster *hint hint*

 

Flexible instances from 1-4 players tactical/HM level neutral (possible minimum level required due to story reasons)

 

Rewards based on your level.

[Mikahrone]

If you're quoting him, at least read his post maybe?

 

No one wants to just get rid of 12xXP for everyone. And no one wants to bar you from leveling up quickly.

The problem is that for people who want to speed through the game/stories for whatever reason, doing the 12xXP class quests is the heavily biased option.

If participating in group activities yielded similar rewards, more people would probably do so, helping to shorten queue times and promoting social interactions/community building along the way.

 

It has been like that for 3 years and didnt help a bit.

 

Grouping was far superior option in whatever sense you want to talk about, all what it did is phase out people from the game.

 

And, just to add, why in the world would you want to group with people who want to speed through the game huh?

What, you didnt have your fair share of "spacebar" in most colorful variants already?

 

Just imagine the level of "spacebar" in that environment as its rampant even now. What it would do is turn even more people away from grouping.

Edited September 29, 2015 by Mikahrone

[Knorlac]

They already offer better rewards than normal quest and you also get more experience being in a grp. What else more do you want?

 

If they give even better rewards, then people would start complaining what is the point of doing normal quests. If you want them to give more xp, then people will start complaining they out level the quests too fast.

 

If they were to give the same amount as 12 xXP class missions it would have to be an option as well of course.

As for normal missions, where is the difference to how it is handled now in comparison to 12xXP?

[zootzoot]

The strength of TOR has always been the Class Stories. It's never been a great MMO at least to me.

 

I played in Beta and got my entire WOW Guild to play here at launch. We all leveled to 50 then most of us left when we realized we had just finished the best part of the game (leveling). I came back when the Epic Story boost was announced just to play through as many Class Stories as possible. I had already done most of the side quests and FP's the first time I played so I don't feel like I'm missing anything this time by just doing the Class stuff.

 

I'll never Raid again in TOR but I do want to play through the new storylines when the x-pac comes out. I think there are a lot of players like me out there TBH.

[Zoom_VI]

You are not barred from doing ANY of those things, dont try to blame 12x xp for lack of interest in that stuff.

 

People can now CHOOSE what they want to do. Too bad they arent choosing what YOU want then to choose.

 

Technically people have a choice, in practice - not really.

 

Humans by nature always default to whatever the most efficient way possible. If you give someone two ways of doing something they will always pick the more efficient one, even if they might otherwise enjoy the less efficient way.

This is why all non-story mission lowbie content is dead right now - it's not efficient so people don't do it. If doing heroics and flashpoints was the most efficient way to level then people would be lining up to do them.

 

Not convinced? Look at daily areas, Currently we have Belsaivs, Ilum, Black Hole, Section X, Makeb, CZ-198, Oricon, Yavin, and Ziost as daily areas. But typically 60s only ever bother doing Yavin. Why? Because Yavin has the best credits to time ratio and is thus more efficient.

 

There is no choice if one way is more efficient.

[Falensawino]

I tried leveling alts this past weekend and ended up twelve times xp'ing the wrong way.

 

My character was a left over dud in my legacy, only lv11 fresh off Hutta, all missions completed years ago prior to 12xXP. At level 11 during 12xXP, I knew I was behind on leveling so I started to complete side missions and side Heroics on Dromund Kaas to bring myself back up to 14 or 15 and start a class missions only run.

 

Well things didn't go as planned I was obsessively collecting resource nodes, I made the mistake of picking up 3 gathering crew skills. Me on dromund kaas: "ooh piece of candy.. ooh piece of candy.. ooh piece of candy.. ooh piece of candy.. ooh piece of candy.. ..." I got involved with the leveling guild I joined, started chatting with some of the members, joined LFG Heroics in general chat. Generally being a good social player. Stopped by the GTN, listed all the resources I collected. Went back to Hutta to test how many commendations Heroics dropped there, no commendations get dropped in starting planet heroics. On way back to Dromund Kaas, ran into some people wanting to run Black Talon, ran the flashpoint twice with two different people. (new players, first timers, so long cutscenes)

 

Went back to Dromund Kaas continued side missioning and postponing my class mission collection ( X'd out of the reward collection window) so I can increase my level before claiming my reward. I didn't know what level to leave Dromund Kaas with, so I kept side questing for xp. (retrospectively ideally at level 20, one of the guys I heroic'd with left at 20).. Well I took so long, completed so many quests, heroics and grouped for flashpoints (2x) Black Talon, (2x) Hammer Station, even (1x Athiss) that I left Dromund Kaas at 22. Twenty-Two is overleveled, my new ship's holoterminal mission gave +6 exp and I'm pretty sure any level 16 story mission would +6 exp from then on. AFter the ship's holoterminal my next mission was at Korriban, level 16, I'm sure it will +6 exp too.

 

 

 

[TL : DR] SOOOO.... All this dilly dallying took hours. The point: I wasted so much time playing the game as if twelve time exp didn't exist that I quickly realized if I want to fully take advantage of this twelve times exp... I need to shut up, ignore chat, ignore guild, ignore everything, no more resource nodes.. Just focus down on story mission for 12xXP.

 

So I can totally see what OP is saying. With Epic Story XP Boost on a death timer, Oct 19/27 is the deadline, you really need to be antisocial to maximize your twelve times xp time while it remains available.

 

 

 

But to be honest, some servers have such low population levels, I think group content while leveling is dead on them anyway. 12 XP or no 12 XP. Sure there are some servers with very dynamic and very much alive population levels but this is hardly the case of servers like PoT5.

Here's the catch, everything I described above, was all done on Pot5. The server does have a pulse there are lots of fresh accounts, new players in Dromund Kaas. Leveling guilds like the one I joined, with aggressive recruiters, aggressively guilding up every lowbie new player. The problem I saw is retention, from what I could see playing during 1 weekend, most of those new characters don't stick around to 60.

 

The aggressive leveling guild I joined had a 60 that left, I witnessed it and asked him what guild he left us for. He joined a conquest guild. Leveling guilds absorbing every lowbie offers little for max level players, but it's important for lowbies to get help from experienced players and have chat dialogue with people that can answer them. Leveling guilds get all the lowbies; conquest guilds get all the endgame characters. In my opinion, conquest has a lot more to do with burning out players than twelve times exp.

 

It's possible to revive Pot5, but while 12xXP lasts I'm going talk as little as possible, try to be antisocial and hunker down on 12xp. I'm sorry but I really need extra 55s.

 

======

Bottom line, I don't like this thread, it's too real and I like 12xXP too much to see it go away.

 

The sad truth, it's probably killing the game. When players realize that PVP/PVE gear operate on Planned Obsolescence, every new update there's a gear refresh and fresh grinding starts for gear that will eventually become obsolete too. Some players have realized that the only thing that will never become obsolete or taken from them, are extra alts.

 

[TL : DR] Unlike endgame gear, alts never become obsolete.

 

 

KotFE is trying to make some alts obsolete by allowing you to trash up/kill off your companions, regret it in the future, delete the toon, start a new toon over again, make better choices.

 

KotFE isn't KOTOR, there are no quick saves, and saves to reload and try again for a better outcome. In a persistent MMO, the only redo you get is an alt.

 

Choices Matter = You'll wish you had game saves

 

Edited September 29, 2015 by Falensawino

[Cuiwe]

Really, hate me all you wish, but there's scant more to TOR than SW and stories. ALL the other things have been(are being?) done better elsewhere...so why not go there? ...silly.

[Falensawino]

But Bioware spoke, Vas:

 

This game is about STORY. **** the nomenclature! It's such a petty point that it is ridiculous. What they are doing with KotFE they should've been doing all along: focusing on story. I'd also like if classes got rebalanced so they're more fun to play more early(yeah PlasmaTech is like...ok, some passives REALLY need to swap places!). Story, story, story. This is what Bioware is good at. Bioware isn't THAT different from Telltale if you think about it. And does anyone expect UT experience from Telltale? No. Why should you from Bioware then? And yes, this is, to quote Ericson, "KoTOR 3...12".

 

DEAL WITH IT

Only difference is in this game there are no game saves. If you make a mistake, you can't load an older save and redo.

 

Bioware story was successful on games with saves, quick save, quick load.

Bioware story + "choices matter" = untested if it will actually be fun in a persistent, permanent choice environment.

 

[Minor Mass Effect 1 spoilers, seriously everyone knows this by now]

 

Example: Mass Effect's Virmire choice. Save Kaidan Alenko or Ashley Williams.

 

When players encounter that forced choice for the first time, they could reload a save before the option and branch out new saves with the alternate option. Save branch with Alenko and another save branch with Williams. You have parallel branches that you can continue to explore. When Mass Effect 2 gives you the import ME1 save screen, you can finalize who you want to save by choosing to import the save branch that is permanent in your personal canon.

 

 

This is without mentioning ME1's replayablility. To maximize your ME2 import rewards you had to level your ME1 character to 60 (I think), that meant usually three full playthroughs to level that high. 3 chances. You had 2 playthroughs to goof around in and 1 final playthrough to decide what choices to finalize and carry over to ME2. Players were given the freedom to err. [btw, you'd only know about this lv60, 3 playthroughs stuff if you looked up a guide on GameFAQs. There's even a ME1 import guide]

Here's the Importing ME1 save guide: "INFORMATION IMPORTED FROM MASS EFFECT 1"

search for (control + F): 34ainf

it's near the bottom under secrets

--- --- ---

you'll need a good Mass Effect 1 guide to make sense of that list. Copy a character name and control + f in a ME1 guide

 

I used a guide combo to get me through ME1. (they are in .txt files to save to disk)

mass_effect_a.txt by etjester Updated: 08/15/11

mass_effect_d.txt by Shotgunnova Updated: 06/23/09

(mass_effect_d.txt has "Choices Matter" in all caps as a bulletpoint under tips and tricks section: TPST )

 

For specific help on getting paragon/renegade points I used:

mass_effect_e.txt by Haeravon Updated: 02/24/12

(There's an infinite paragon/renegade points trick/bug (search mass_effect_d.txt for TRKS ))

--- --- ---

I used a programming notepad, it remembers your tabs when you exit application: Notepad++

I used Bespin color style: Settings -> Style Configurator... -> Select theme: -> Bespin

--- --- ---

You never know what you'll get when you click one of my spoiler buttons

 

 

SW:TOR, someone dies, deal with it. Pray you don't make the same mistake again.

Edited September 29, 2015 by Falensawino

[Faelandaea]

To the last few posters R.E. efficiency and dead queues - it's not the 12x killing off the queues. It's like what Falensawino said - once he realized 12x was on a deadline, THAT's when he went into the tunnel vision bit.

 

A LOT of players are encountering this right now. It is a race. I like the 12x, but I hated the deadline. I think if the deadline weren't this month, I'd have taken more time giving attention to my mains and only worked on alts and enjoyed alt story-lines when my mains had nothing to do.

 

I am one of those players that playing a main story-line is like reading a book. i hate getting distracted because then I lose track of what's going on. On my first characters i started when I started playing a couple of years ago, I had SO many side-quests going on and SO many cut-scenes going on it became a blur and was almost hard to keep track of the actual main story. So when this 12x XP came out, I became so driven to see the stories without interruption, BEFORE the deadline, that I have delayed my main characters in some of their progression.

 

Of course - this is entirely on me, because it was my choice to do so, but it is a choice I am happy with. But I am certain beyond reasonable doubt that queues would stat being populated again if there was not a deadline on 12x XP.

[robertthebard]

My plan was to just do Class and Planetary (not Side) Missions. My plan failed. I find myself doing everything ... including filling my map. SWTOR routine > self-control.

 

The irony here is that I leveled 18 toons to cap doing just that, the Class and main planet story missions. There are planets where even with 12x I find myself "picking and choosing", such as doing the last two Dread Master quests on Belsavis, and doing the Trials on Voss so I can get the datacron. I also tend towards doing the Revanite quest line on DK now, so that I can say "You know, I'm a Revanite" later...

[MandFlurry]

If any1 was to ask me about what would happen with 12X after Oct.19. I would say the Devs want to know where most of us customers stand on it. What do we want out of this game.

 

I would tell that person, that from me being here since Beta, that most of us are dammed sick and tired of doing the same missions over and over again.

 

I would say as much as most ppl like/ love 12X xp. We also want the chance to do old side-quests later after we are done getting our characters to 55 or 60 and get all the Achievements later that we haven't done, like Datacrons.

 

I think that Bioware wanted to hear more from us earlier than now, about what kind of "streamlined leveling" we want to have.

 

Right now though, within' more like days instead of weeks. EAWare already has their leveling process ready to be implemented, with maybe a little twiqueing to do maybe. But I do hope for us all to have the 12X xp as an Option.

 

Having 12X xp also helps us ppl with Physical disabilities like Severe Arthritis, Fibromialgia, etc, etc, etc.

[TUXs]

You are not barred from doing ANY of those things, dont try to blame 12x xp for lack of interest in that stuff.

 

People can now CHOOSE what they want to do. Too bad they arent choosing what YOU want then to choose.

So much THIS!

 

The lack of interest in side quests should be telling.

 

Personally, I think everyone should PvP...but many people have no interest in it. Should I suggest everyone be forced to do it, just to appease me? Hell no. People do what they want...we all have different enjoyments...that's the beauty of MMOs.

[XiamaraSimi]

So much THIS!

 

The lack of interest in side quests should be telling.

 

Personally, I think everyone should PvP...but many people have no interest in it. Should I suggest everyone be forced to do it, just to appease me? Hell no. People do what they want...we all have different enjoyments...that's the beauty of MMOs.

 

Oh dear TUX and i agree on a point in which pvp was mentioned -checks temperature- (i kid i kid )

 

But pretty much this.

 

It all boils down to personal choice. After leveling -every- base story once the "hard way" (so 4 times each side) i could happily live the entirety of my life without ever doing another planetary chain & flashpoint ever again for alt characters.

 

Just because you like spelunking every single cave, and slogging through every leech infested swamp every single time you make a character, doesnt mean others do, nor should they have to.

 

Been there, done all that, multiple times. And as for grouping up, im sorry, but the majority of pugs i encounter make Forrest Gump look like Einstein... pass on bashing my head against walls.

[Bomyne]

So much THIS!

 

The lack of interest in side quests should be telling.

 

Personally, I think everyone should PvP...but many people have no interest in it. Should I suggest everyone be forced to do it, just to appease me? Hell no. People do what they want...we all have different enjoyments...that's the beauty of MMOs.

 

I gave PVP a try just now... and I just floated around all match getting blown up :\ Even if I did find it fun - which I don't... my ship is heavily under geared and there is no tutorial to let you mess around before you get into the thick of things.

 

As I said before, I'm not going to PvP. I'm not going to do operations, and I'm not going to do Flashpoints that I can't do with my girlfriend. They aren't fun. Not to me.

 

And that's the key of gaming. Do what is fun, not what is not.

[Azareya]

I still do all quests on every single toon, I can't stop myself, pvp i'm always queue as soon as I can.

As for doing flashpoints, well I tried it once on 12xp at lvl 34, was playing a commando all the loot was aim and some ******e JK needed on it all, yea no thanks going to stick with 12xp and soloing the FP that I want.

 

So no 12xXp doesn't stop anyone from doing what they want, it just gives people more leeway to doing what THEY want, which is a good thing.

Edited September 29, 2015 by Azareya

[Diefenbaker]

Having done all the group content below 55 several times on both sides with several characters, I don't see the harm.

 

And let's face it, how often are you going to run the same old FPs and ops? So we're all going to run BT again? For the what? 500th time?

 

Yeah, no thanks.

[Sarrkoth]

Eh, I already leveled a character to 60 the legit way. This just made it so I could run through all the stories before kotfe dropped.

[TUXs]

I gave PVP a try just now... and I just floated around all match getting blown up :\ Even if I did find it fun - which I don't... my ship is heavily under geared and there is no tutorial to let you mess around before you get into the thick of things.

 

As I said before, I'm not going to PvP. I'm not going to do operations, and I'm not going to do Flashpoints that I can't do with my girlfriend. They aren't fun. Not to me.

 

And that's the key of gaming. Do what is fun, not what is not.

 

You goof...that was GSF, not PvP

 

Arguably it's a form of "PvP", but it's not the traditional PvP players speak of when they say "PvP". GSF does a great job of frustrating new players to the point they won't ever be back.

 

And...there is a GSF tutorial, it's just terrible. Press H and hit the question mark in the upper right of the screen...that's the tutorial. If you give GSF time, it can be a lot of fun!

 

So...next up, you need to try REAL PvP

[branmakmuffin]

So...next up, you need to try REAL PvP

"Real" PvP (whatever that means) is marginally better than GSF in that you don't have to learn a whole new set of controls and such. Unless, of course, the player is a clicker, then he or she has to learn to be a keybinder. That is one of the many reasons I do not PvP (1337 whiners is another, and nothing can be done about them, other than simply not PvP). But note that whatever disagreements we have on the forums, I strongly suspect you are not a whiner.

Edited September 29, 2015 by branmakmuffin

[Suromir]

Did you read the part of my post that started with me saying " please read below too" in caps?

 

sure did.

 

Basically you just want to take the choice away outright since "most" won't "nerf" their experience.

 

since they're not playing the way YOU want...you want the choice taken away. Typical of all these posts.

 

And no 12x isn't hurting grouping. I've been around since pre-launch and it's been the same for awhile, only grouping is FP's, H4's are not worth the time/effot..and never were.

 

Again, YOU just want to take everyone elses choice away. No matter how you want to spin it. That's all your post is proposing. Removing the choice since you don't like the choice others are making.

[Spamfritter]

12x XP is a good thing. I leveled a ton of characters because I could play though and enjoy the stories without the grinding ******** normally associated with leveling. I'd argue that I played the game MORE as a result of 12x XP. Not less.