Harm in 12xXP

[Ramalina]

For people who are high efficiency players, raiders, former raiders, high end PvPers, crafting and trading moguls, etc. the leveling group content was all pretty much dead before 12x XP came out.

 

Drop rates were too low to compete gearwise with crafting and comms, credits per unit time were low, and if running for a chance at decorations it was a heck of a lot more efficient to overlevel and come back to solo it with a companion.

 

Dyed in the wool PvPers and GSF pilots will still do their respective sorts of PvP to some extent, because PvE content gives no rewards that are really relevant to PvP progression on the ground or in space.

 

In terms of power leveling though, "taking a break from leveling to go do a FP or help some people with a Heroic mission," was a thing a long time before 12x XP hit. That's really repeatable story content, and if you don't find replays of the story or the mechanics of a particular PvE encounter terribly entertaining, then there's no more reason to run that multiple times than there is to make multiple characters of each class to do each class multiple times.

 

Basically, if you applied 12x XP to ALL content, many, perhaps even most, of the people skipping the group content would still be skipping it.

[Mikahrone]

To the last few posters R.E. efficiency and dead queues - it's not the 12x killing off the queues. It's like what Falensawino said - once he realized 12x was on a deadline, THAT's when he went into the tunnel vision bit.

 

A LOT of players are encountering this right now. It is a race. I like the 12x, but I hated the deadline. I think if the deadline weren't this month, I'd have taken more time giving attention to my mains and only worked on alts and enjoyed alt story-lines when my mains had nothing to do.

 

I am one of those players that playing a main story-line is like reading a book. i hate getting distracted because then I lose track of what's going on. On my first characters i started when I started playing a couple of years ago, I had SO many side-quests going on and SO many cut-scenes going on it became a blur and was almost hard to keep track of the actual main story. So when this 12x XP came out, I became so driven to see the stories without interruption, BEFORE the deadline, that I have delayed my main characters in some of their progression.

 

Of course - this is entirely on me, because it was my choice to do so, but it is a choice I am happy with. But I am certain beyond reasonable doubt that queues would stat being populated again if there was not a deadline on 12x XP.

 

Thats one thing. I did that at SOR prepurchase, when there wasnt any notion that 12x xp will be coming back.

 

I know that BW wants to "encourage" subbing, but if they say will 12x xp be back after a while when KOTFE is out it wouldnt be a race. Well, not for most people i think, theres always rushers around.

[Mikahrone]

I gave PVP a try just now... and I just floated around all match getting blown up :\ Even if I did find it fun - which I don't... my ship is heavily under geared and there is no tutorial to let you mess around before you get into the thick of things.

 

As I said before, I'm not going to PvP. I'm not going to do operations, and I'm not going to do Flashpoints that I can't do with my girlfriend. They aren't fun. Not to me.

 

And that's the key of gaming. Do what is fun, not what is not.

 

I so very much want FPs to scale 1-4 players. Solo mode is improvement, but i plan on playing with a friend, and we pretty much have to skip all leveling FPs, which is a shame.

[Khevar]

I so very much want FPs to scale 1-4 players. Solo mode is improvement, but i plan on playing with a friend, and we pretty much have to skip all leveling FPs, which is a shame.

For what it's worth, 2-player flashpoints (with 2 companions) are doable while at level.

 

I did exactly this with a friend, and it was extremely fun. I ran a healer with a tank companion, he ran a dps with a dps companion.

 

The main thing you have to do is pay attention to when you companions are "standing in bad". CTRL-2 is the default keybind for "stop attacking and stand next to me". So be sure to toggle it off-and-on as needed to get the companion to move out of red circles and such.

 

Cheers.

Edited September 29, 2015 by Khevar

[well]

For what it's worth, 2-player flashpoints (with 2 companions) are doable while at level.

 

I did exactly this with a friend, and it was extremely fun. I ran a healer with a tank companion, he ran a dps with a dps companion.

 

The main thing you have to do is pay attention to when you companions are "standing in bad". CTRL-2 is the default keybind for "stop attacking and stand next to me". So be sure to toggle it off-and-on as needed to get the companion to move out of red circles and such.

 

Cheers.

 

Well thank you very much. I didn't know that. I could use that going thru the planets also. Learn something new everyday.

[Liquor]

this was discussed in depth before x12xp was announced and again when x12 xp was announced. then once more after x12xp was released....that horse is still dead. we lost, that xp boost was released and everything we argued about was realized.

 

pvp is bad and full of bads, ops suck unless youre in a farm guild, flashpoints rarely pop and when they do, many dont know the fights. many still dont know how to gear out their toons let alone their companions. those that wanted the x12xp have complained and came to the darkside that is against it. lots of good players left swtor in frustration and x12xp was part of it.

 

swtor devs shot themselves in the foot and we raised the red flag early. it didnt matter. we're stuck with it now. deal with it.

[masstershake]

this was discussed in depth before x12xp was announced and again when x12 xp was announced. then once more after x12xp was released....that horse is still dead. we lost, that xp boost was released and everything we argued about was realized.

:

 

I don't know who you're talking about here...but i was in major favor of 12x XP and am still if not more so in favor of it now...i finally have 1 of every advance class, 2 of each healing class and a ton of low lvl toons for low level pvp...

 

I do not understand why some people don't like 12x XP...so what there are bads...there will always be bads but at least now there are more players...the devs did not shoot themselves in the foot, they added something to the game that is much needed and should be rewarded for it...(and btw as stated by the OP you can remove 12x and this hasn't hurt group content, group content was not being used anyways, i did every flashpoint once while leveling for the 1 time quests and never again...nothing changed with 12x) and i for one am not looking forward to leveling again once 12x xp is gone

Edited September 30, 2015 by masstershake

[NeuroniaSW]

12XP saved my interest in this game. Prior, it took so long to level that I was spamming Kuat Drive Yards to get to the next class level tiers. And that was boring as hell. Prior to 12XP I had a level 43 Sith Warrior and a level 45 Agent. I had a few Republic toons in the lower levels but it was just too grindy going through Balmorra again so I unsubbed for a year or so.

 

Now? I have done every class story several times over, with different genders/races and so on. And then again on new servers. I love Flashpoints, I do all them at least once for the story content, but I want to play completed characters with all the powers and doohickys. I'll team anytime, I love teaming, but with my erratic play schedule and prehistoric rig (it can take me up to 4-5 minutes to load into an instance :/ ) not many want to wait thta long.

 

So for me as a solo player? It's awesome.

[Bomyne]

You goof...that was GSF, not PvP

 

Arguably it's a form of "PvP", but it's not the traditional PvP players speak of when they say "PvP". GSF does a great job of frustrating new players to the point they won't ever be back.

 

And...there is a GSF tutorial, it's just terrible. Press H and hit the question mark in the upper right of the screen...that's the tutorial. If you give GSF time, it can be a lot of fun!

 

So...next up, you need to try REAL PvP

 

I've tried groundbased PvP before my absence from the game. It's worthless.

 

I would rather just stick to playing the story lines, and pretend PvP and Ops don't exist. Because they have no value for me. GSF is the only multiplayer mode I haven't given a proper go... and you are right, it is frustrating me. Heck, that Tutorial you pointed out as more fun than all of the games multiplayer modes combined.

 

Bioware, please allow the 12x to stay permanently.

[robertthebard]

this was discussed in depth before x12xp was announced and again when x12 xp was announced. then once more after x12xp was released....that horse is still dead. we lost, that xp boost was released and everything we argued about was realized.

 

pvp is bad and full of bads, ops suck unless youre in a farm guild, flashpoints rarely pop and when they do, many dont know the fights. many still dont know how to gear out their toons let alone their companions. those that wanted the x12xp have complained and came to the darkside that is against it. lots of good players left swtor in frustration and x12xp was part of it.

 

swtor devs shot themselves in the foot and we raised the red flag early. it didnt matter. we're stuck with it now. deal with it.

 

You know, I don't PvP here, 1 2 3 GO isn't my idea of PvP. However, I have spent hours upon hours listening to my GL cry about the bads in PvP groups, even when the cap was only 55. So what was it that caused bads back then, since there was no 12x xp? Could it possibly be that there are bads no matter what? Surely not, right? I mean, it's not like we couldn't go on the PvP forums and find thousands of posts about how every class in the game needs nerfed, except the one the OP is playing, which needs buffed, right? According to the "PvPers", those players are bads, right? At least, until they feel like they're getting the short end of the stick, and then it's ok...

 

Define lots, and provide something aside from anecdotal evidence? The three people you know that left don't constitute lots, and frankly, I don't know of anyone that left due to the xp boost. But hey, if you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with ********, right?

[Mikahrtwo]

this was discussed in depth before x12xp was announced and again when x12 xp was announced. then once more after x12xp was released....that horse is still dead. we lost, that xp boost was released and everything we argued about was realized.

 

pvp is bad and full of bads, ops suck unless youre in a farm guild, flashpoints rarely pop and when they do, many dont know the fights. many still dont know how to gear out their toons let alone their companions. those that wanted the x12xp have complained and came to the darkside that is against it. lots of good players left swtor in frustration and x12xp was part of it.

 

swtor devs shot themselves in the foot and we raised the red flag early. it didnt matter. we're stuck with it now. deal with it.

 

What you really wanted to say....nothings changed, except there are lot more happy people that finally got to see best part of the game.

 

I still remember back in 2011/ early 2012 people whining on forums and fleet about bads in PvE and PvP rofl, how leveling FPs aint poppin aka "its REALLY hard to get leveing FP going (no GF back then), and later onyl KSY poppin, and i know more people that left SWTOR than you do. That may be back if they deliver their promise and make SWTOR story KOTOR game instead what it was for past 3 years with stroy content shoved in FPS and OPS in some futile attempt to make people do what they dont want to.

 

Accent on MAY, as BW will have to work real hard to remove damage done to reputation of the game (raid gear grind)

Edited September 30, 2015 by Mikahrtwo

[Jedi_riches]

12x xp is really a double edged sword, it helps people who have levelled prior characters by speeding up the levelling process however more experienced people would/should already:

1) have working knowledge of how the game works in general

2) be able to understand basic rotations

3) will have likely been part of groups on flashpoints etc

 

Noobs however:

1) are not going to understand basics of the game, and due to the speed of levelling may not fully grasp the principles on the move.

2) moves come at them so quick they may not understand their importance or what priority they would be in a rotation.

3) the only flashpoints that seem to pop at the minute is KYD as people are not running the levelling flashpoints because of 12x xp, so players don't understand group etticate and certainly don't understand role due to tacticals.

 

So the speed of levelling does not help new people to the game as it goes too fast for brains to comprehend, but to be honest I don't see why people new to the game would rush the levelling experience if its just to get to endgame aren't there better MMO's for endgame?

[Draqsko]

In defence of Cnut, the story was that he was surrounded by brown-nosers and sycophants. Tired of their nonsense, he declared he would command the tides to stop, and not one adviser felt confident enough to say what a bad idea this was. They all proceeded to the shore, Cnut did his thing, the tides ignored him, and Cnut famously "rebuked his couriers".

 

Cnut was not a fool who thought his power was without bounds.

 

Basically, Cnut's couriers are like Bioware's fanboys, except Bioware still hasn't figured out this whole tide thing yet.

 

That's one version of the story. Another, perhaps older version, just has him saying this:

 

Let all men know how empty and worthless is the power of kings, for there is none worthy of the name, but He whom heaven, earth, and sea obey by eternal laws.

 

He then hung up his crown on a crucifix and never wore it again.

 

That is probably more relevant of a version for this instance. Traditional MMO players might have been kings here before, but it's probably time to hang up the traditional MMO crown. Telling BW to stop or change directions is about as effective as Cnut and the sea.

[Suromir]

this was discussed in depth before x12xp was announced and again when x12 xp was announced. then once more after x12xp was released....that horse is still dead. we lost, that xp boost was released and everything we argued about was realized.

 

pvp is bad and full of bads, ops suck unless youre in a farm guild, flashpoints rarely pop and when they do, many dont know the fights. many still dont know how to gear out their toons let alone their companions. those that wanted the x12xp have complained and came to the darkside that is against it. lots of good players left swtor in frustration and x12xp was part of it.

 

swtor devs shot themselves in the foot and we raised the red flag early. it didnt matter. we're stuck with it now. deal with it.

 

pure hyperbole and outright false claims.

 

more were for it than against it. There's probably more that were against it that "switched to the darkside" and actually ended up liking it than what you're claiming. And I seriously doubt even one person left SWTOR because of 12x.

 

trollol.

[Breech]

Well, I don't know the rest of the game, but thanks to this now I have:

 

A) A guild. Maybe not a very active one, but full of people to talk with.

B) A main, very well geared, and ready for the KoTFE expansion.

C) Friends to play with. Thanks to this one, I've convinced several friends to come back to game and sub.

D) Now I've a toon for every class. I've seen all the stories, both In the Republic and the Empire, and also Now I have Healers, ranged/CC DPS and tanks, all of them well geared and ready to any group content, including raids. So, grouping is no longer a problem.

E) Now I'm doing some raids, that before I can't do.

F) Thanks to that, now I can sell the items I found in the group content and rare drops in the GTM. I've finally money to buy some decorations or even the strongholds I want, so I can finally put some designs to work, and I've money for helping friends and new comers in my guild.

G) Without the worry of the damn PvE gear, I can now focus in activites like this bounty hunter thing, some spaceship PvP, and even some role events.

 

And that's what I can come up right now. So, I don't know the rest, but this 12xp booster is a BLESSING for me. NO MORE GRINDING, so I can actually enjoy the damn game.

[Draqsko]

Well, I don't know the rest of the game, but thanks to this now I have:

 

A) A guild. Maybe not a very active one, but full of people to talk with.

B) A main, very well geared, and ready for the KoTFE expansion.

C) Friends to play with. Thanks to this one, I've convinced several friends to come back to game and sub.

D) Now I've a toon for every class. I've seen all the stories, both In the Republic and the Empire, and also Now I have Healers, ranged/CC DPS and tanks, all of them well geared and ready to any group content, including raids. So, grouping is no longer a problem.

E) Now I'm doing some raids, that before I can't do.

F) Thanks to that, now I can sell the items I found in the group content and rare drops in the GTM. I've finally money to buy some decorations or even the strongholds I want, so I can finally put some designs to work, and I've money for helping friends and new comers in my guild.

G) Without the worry of the damn PvE gear, I can now focus in activites like this bounty hunter thing, some spaceship PvP, and even some role events.

 

And that's what I can come up right now. So, I don't know the rest, but this 12xp booster is a BLESSING for me. NO MORE GRINDING, so I can actually enjoy the damn game.

 

Got news for you, the worst grind in this game is yet to come. Getting BIS gear takes more time than getting to max level even without 12xp.

 

I have a level 50+ sage that hasn't set foot on Tatooine yet for the story. Leveling was never hard in this game since they increased the xp rewards for subscribers after F2P transition. At launch you had to grind every quest, heroic, fp and pvp daily just to stay a couple levels over content, oh and you had to do that with a partner to get the increased xp from being in a group. After F2P came though, quests turned grey halfway through the first planet if you did everything as a subscriber, and as long as you did some side quests along the way it would be like that until you hit 50 on Belsavis. The only thing 12x did was allow you to skip ALL other content besides the class story.

 

You could have always enjoyed the game for almost the last 3 years if you were a sub with minimal questing beyond the class story, it only sucked as F2P. It's not like 12xp changed any of that for F2P, in fact I'd say it made it worse for F2P players since now subs could completely bypass heroics and flashpoints while leveling instead of having to do them occasionally to stay overleveled. That has done more harm to this game than many realize, because some of those F2P players in my guild eventually became subs, but most F2P nowadays just quit playing since no one does group content that would help them level and grinding mob kills gets boring fast.

 

Either way, it's too late now, that water has long passed under the bridge. But at least let's not kid ourselves, 12x harmed the game more than it did good. It homogenized the player base by creating 2 classes of players and effectively removing the lower class from progressing at all relative to the upper class. Most of that lower class doesn't exist anymore.

 

And before anyone says well they aren't paying so they should get out, those F2P players did bring something to the table too, life and vibrancy to a host of servers, many of which are ghost towns now. Trust me, this game lost a lot in the past year, and there was probably more than one cause, but 12x is definitely one reason.

[Uruare]

A well framed view, Draqso, though I'm not sure I entirely agree.

 

Having nothing but anecdotes to work from, all I can say is that my personal experiences haven't reflected your suppositions at all. I've done more of everything because it's vastly easier to level now and I haven't felt at all like I wasn't keeping pace with my goals to go screw around and help do heroics and snag leveling gear out of leveling fp's, to conserve dem coms.

 

The guilds my various toons are in gave been busier than not, with loads of people leveling together even if their levels were disparate because it didn't screw up the xp that mattered for a 37, a 44 and a bored 65 to be smashing eachothers' class quests out.

 

I'm sure others' mileage can and will vary, but mine has been super positive on the whole

 

I've even recently started a gulf on one toon just to do more group stuff with and its taken off like a goofy little rocket.

 

Seems to me that people like playing with eachother more when the pressure is off rather than less.

[Mikahrtwo]

Got news for you, the worst grind in this game is yet to come. Getting BIS gear takes more time than getting to max level even without 12xp.

 

I have a level 50+ sage that hasn't set foot on Tatooine yet for the story. Leveling was never hard in this game since they increased the xp rewards for subscribers after F2P transition. At launch you had to grind every quest, heroic, fp and pvp daily just to stay a couple levels over content, oh and you had to do that with a partner to get the increased xp from being in a group. After F2P came though, quests turned grey halfway through the first planet if you did everything as a subscriber, and as long as you did some side quests along the way it would be like that until you hit 50 on Belsavis. The only thing 12x did was allow you to skip ALL other content besides the class story.

 

You could have always enjoyed the game for almost the last 3 years if you were a sub with minimal questing beyond the class story, it only sucked as F2P. It's not like 12xp changed any of that for F2P, in fact I'd say it made it worse for F2P players since now subs could completely bypass heroics and flashpoints while leveling instead of having to do them occasionally to stay overleveled. That has done more harm to this game than many realize, because some of those F2P players in my guild eventually became subs, but most F2P nowadays just quit playing since no one does group content that would help them level and grinding mob kills gets boring fast.

 

Either way, it's too late now, that water has long passed under the bridge. But at least let's not kid ourselves, 12x harmed the game more than it did good. It homogenized the player base by creating 2 classes of players and effectively removing the lower class from progressing at all relative to the upper class. Most of that lower class doesn't exist anymore.

 

And before anyone says well they aren't paying so they should get out, those F2P players did bring something to the table too, life and vibrancy to a host of servers, many of which are ghost towns now. Trust me, this game lost a lot in the past year, and there was probably more than one cause, but 12x is definitely one reason.

 

F2P quit anyway. And lol at "noone groups so they quit" riiiiiiiiiight.

 

Newsflash, F2P have severe limitations on any group activity, WZs, FPs, OPs and even quest rewards. You should try it out sometimes and see for yourself since you seem oblivious to certain things.

 

And what you say about leveling in vanilla is utterly wrong, i was one of first level 50s on server and havent touched ANY group content, for very obvious reason - there was at most 2-3 people on my level to play with. You could reach 50 just by questing and even be a bit overleveled just fine.

 

Even later you couldnt find a group for FPs after Athiss easily, you had to shout on fleet for hours, pretty much nobody did heroics, etc. etc.

 

I dont know where all these people saying there was some kind of grouping golden age before F2P/12x xp are popping up from lol

Edited September 30, 2015 by Mikahrtwo

[Uruare]

F2P quit anyway. And lol at "noone groups so they quit" riiiiiiiiiight.

 

Newsflash, F2P have severe limitations on any group activity, WZs, FPs, OPs and even quest rewards. You should try it out sometimes and see for yourself since you seem oblivious to certain things.

 

And what you say about leveling in vanilla is utterly wrong, i was one of first level 50s on server and havent touched ANY group content, for very obvious reason - there was at most 2-3 people on my level to play with. You could reach 50 just by questing and even be a bit overleveled just fine.

 

Even later you couldnt find a group for FPs after Athiss easily, you had to shout on fleet for hours, pretty much nobody did heroics, etc. etc.

 

I dont know where all these people saying there was some kind of grouping golden age before F2P/12x xp are popping up from lol

 

 

They're making crap up or just flat out weren't even here and think they know how it surely was anyway, I think.

[ShieldProtection]

People blaming to BioWare because leveling is hard and takes much time

 

People blaming to BioWare because now you can level up faster

 

..before you bash me, may I ask, what you want from developers..?

[_NovaBlast_]

this thread and the op comes down to " i don't like players having a choice on how they play the game because i think it should be played this way and everyone should be forced to play the game the way i think it should be done"

[LordDelectus]

I will throw my two cents in.

 

I have by nature been an antisocial gamer, always have. I LOVE LOVE LOVE Star Wars, but it took six-eight months to get on to TOR because I was so hesitant of MMO.

 

As a story gamer, I have to say being social is not optional. You want to know canonical content? Gotta do ops and flashpoints. GF for ops is a joke for DPS, you must have a guild or you will never get to do them.

 

What happens to the Supreme Mogul of the Hutt Cartel? Gotta op!

 

What happens to the Dread Masters? Gotta do three ops!

 

Want half the ending to the Revan storyline? Gotta op.

 

I was avoiding social heroics before 12xp. This basically is a time saver from doing solo side quests. Nothing more. It is helping me move through stories quicker and retain information, which sounds critical before KotFE.

[robertthebard]

Got news for you, the worst grind in this game is yet to come. Getting BIS gear takes more time than getting to max level even without 12xp.

 

I have a level 50+ sage that hasn't set foot on Tatooine yet for the story. Leveling was never hard in this game since they increased the xp rewards for subscribers after F2P transition. At launch you had to grind every quest, heroic, fp and pvp daily just to stay a couple levels over content, oh and you had to do that with a partner to get the increased xp from being in a group. After F2P came though, quests turned grey halfway through the first planet if you did everything as a subscriber, and as long as you did some side quests along the way it would be like that until you hit 50 on Belsavis. The only thing 12x did was allow you to skip ALL other content besides the class story.

 

You could have always enjoyed the game for almost the last 3 years if you were a sub with minimal questing beyond the class story, it only sucked as F2P. It's not like 12xp changed any of that for F2P, in fact I'd say it made it worse for F2P players since now subs could completely bypass heroics and flashpoints while leveling instead of having to do them occasionally to stay overleveled. That has done more harm to this game than many realize, because some of those F2P players in my guild eventually became subs, but most F2P nowadays just quit playing since no one does group content that would help them level and grinding mob kills gets boring fast.

 

Either way, it's too late now, that water has long passed under the bridge. But at least let's not kid ourselves, 12x harmed the game more than it did good. It homogenized the player base by creating 2 classes of players and effectively removing the lower class from progressing at all relative to the upper class. Most of that lower class doesn't exist anymore.

 

And before anyone says well they aren't paying so they should get out, those F2P players did bring something to the table too, life and vibrancy to a host of servers, many of which are ghost towns now. Trust me, this game lost a lot in the past year, and there was probably more than one cause, but 12x is definitely one reason.

 

I have to ask; Why are you concerned so much about being "overleveled" for the content? I have yet to find that it's necessary if I'm even moderately keeping up with gear. Case in point: I just finished the SW story and I don't have any relics, and my earbud was lvl 29, I hit 51 on the turn in. The armors were 41 and the mods/enhancements were 49, because I was being cheap, and don't have any crafters high enough to make the gear I'd have liked to have had for that fight yet, since I'm on a new server, and guildless, by choice. To top this, I haven't done any group content at all, not even going back and soloing BT while way over level.

 

I have, however, had plenty of interaction with other players: I've had players blow up the box on Yavin as I was putting my binoculars away. I've had players swoop in and spawn the Elite while I was clearing the trash. I've had players swoop in and claim quest/mat nodes while I was clearing the trash around them so I could get them. Tell me, again, what incentive I should have to group with people like that? These are the same people that will roll "Need" on every single drop, that will spend all their time going on and on about how "superior" they are, all while being the first one dead, and screaming about how it's everyone else's fault that it happened.

[Draqsko]

I have to ask; Why are you concerned so much about being "overleveled" for the content?

 

I am not, but the fact is being a subscriber basically overleveled you after F2P was introduced and they upped the xp rewards, and grouping with people just multiplied that. The only time where there was any kind of a leveling grind was at launch.

 

Personally I am not concerned about being overleveled because I always get overleveled. I do Ops on my commando, scoundrel and guardian. Only my guardian has finished chapter 3, and only the guardian I played at launch ever got to chapter 3 before level 50, and he hit 50 before I even finished Belsavis. I didn't grind anything either then, I did the story, ran flashpoints, did pvp and after about level 25 I even started backing off on anything beyond class and planetary story arcs because I was overleveling. My commando and scoundrel? Scoundrel didn't finish chapter 2 until he was 60, commando finished chapter 2 at 55, my sage is 54 or 55 now and still hasn't done Tatooine. In fact I can do Qyzen's quest while I do Tatooine because I've already maxed out his affection.

 

12XP was never necessary to avoid the grind in this game, the only players that have to grind are F2P. So please, let's just stop saying it helped avoid grinding because this game was one of the least grindy ones I've ever played even at launch.

 

Newsflash, F2P have severe limitations on any group activity, WZs, FPs, OPs and even quest rewards. You should try it out sometimes and see for yourself since you seem oblivious to certain things.

 

And what you say about leveling in vanilla is utterly wrong, i was one of first level 50s on server and havent touched ANY group content, for very obvious reason - there was at most 2-3 people on my level to play with. You could reach 50 just by questing and even be a bit overleveled just fine.

 

Newsflash, if you played at launch then you'd know that the xp that F2P gets now, is the xp that subs got at launch. So I'm gonna call BS on you never grouping or doing group content and being one of the first 50s unless you sat there and grinded mobs an insane amount of time.

 

And yes, the whole restrictions on the ability to do group content is what really slows F2P more than subs at launch. I should know, I bought enough passes for guildies who were F2P just so they could do stuff with the guild and advance at a reasonable rate. Now they not only have to contend with the restrictions but the fact that subs bypass that content entirely now while leveling for the most part.

[Draqsko]

A well framed view, Draqso, though I'm not sure I entirely agree.

 

Having nothing but anecdotes to work from, all I can say is that my personal experiences haven't reflected your suppositions at all. I've done more of everything because it's vastly easier to level now and I haven't felt at all like I wasn't keeping pace with my goals to go screw around and help do heroics and snag leveling gear out of leveling fp's, to conserve dem coms.

 

The guilds my various toons are in gave been busier than not, with loads of people leveling together even if their levels were disparate because it didn't screw up the xp that mattered for a 37, a 44 and a bored 65 to be smashing eachothers' class quests out.

 

I'm sure others' mileage can and will vary, but mine has been super positive on the whole

 

I've even recently started a gulf on one toon just to do more group stuff with and its taken off like a goofy little rocket.

 

Seems to me that people like playing with eachother more when the pressure is off rather than less.

 

Thanks for maintaining a level-headed discussion.

 

Yes, I am not fool enough to believe my experience applies to everyone, but at the same time neither should anyone else. The fact is, there wouldn't be dead servers with people leaving before they even get to max level. I run a guild, I know why they leave because I ask them if possible. The biggest reason is the frustration of trying to get groups together to do Heroics and Flashpoints these days.

 

As far as pressure, well you make your own pressure while leveling, no one else. My first character didn't hit 50 until right before the first Rakghoul event and I started playing this game after Christmas since it was my present to myself that year. Never felt any pressure to level up despite the fact that my GM at the time kept bugging me and my girlfriend to hurry up and hit 50 so we could join them in PvP.

 

If it is true as you said about people playing together more with no pressure, then how was I always able to get groups together almost instantly before 12xp, but now it's like pulling teeth? No one wants to group, they just want to do class stories and blow through them to max level. And that was before the population crashed on my server.