Harm in 12xXP

[Faardor]

less than a month until xpac, is this thread even relevant anymore? Bioware is removing 12xp (or so they say, New streamlined leveling article to be posted on the website soon.)

Also couldve just bumped one of the other threads that were complaints about 12xp instead of making a new one. Everything in this thread has already been said somewhere else.

[DalekTheCat]

Maybe the pendulum will swing back and the focus will be on group content in the future, but right now we are like King Canute trying to command the tides to stop. It's time to hang up the crown, the tide isn't stopping.

 

In defence of Cnut, the story was that he was surrounded by brown-nosers and sycophants. Tired of their nonsense, he declared he would command the tides to stop, and not one adviser felt confident enough to say what a bad idea this was. They all proceeded to the shore, Cnut did his thing, the tides ignored him, and Cnut famously "rebuked his couriers".

 

Cnut was not a fool who thought his power was without bounds.

 

Basically, Cnut's couriers are like Bioware's fanboys, except Bioware still hasn't figured out this whole tide thing yet.

[sentientomega]

Since it seems the definition of an MMO is in dispute, here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massively_multiplayer_online_game

 

A massively multiplayer online game (MMO or MMOG) is a multiplayer video game which is capable of supporting large numbers of players simultaneously.

 

There's your definition, it does not say group content is the law.

 

MMOGs can enable players to cooperate and compete with each other on a large scale, and sometimes to interact meaningfully with people around the world.

 

Emphasising can, not must; and they don't have, unless they want to. If they want to solo, they can, if they want to group, they can.

 

Look at my signature, and you'll see how 12x XP has benefited me.

Edited September 29, 2015 by sentientomega

[Nightblazer]

12xp.is going to be removed soon when the expac drops, the leveling experience will be "streamlined" in the new expansion. At this point what's done is done and will see how things are once the expansion is released.

[Angror]

I loved the 12x exp because i was able to get all of the stories done. The best part of that is i did not have to do every side quest on each of those toons as i played through. After 4 play throughs the side quests loose there appeal because unlike your story they are the same quest every time.

[BlazeTomahawk]

I loved the 12x exp because i was able to get all of the stories done. The best part of that is i did not have to do every side quest on each of those toons as i played through. After 4 play throughs the side quests loose there appeal because unlike your story they are the same quest every time.

 

This right here.

I played a Marauder and a Trooper to 55 as FTP, doing every side quest I could find to get the XP, gear, full on immersion of both factions. Now I know the side stuff, I wan to experience the smuggler, agent, etc, without having to do 16 missions inside the Balmorrqn Arms Factory, killing the same spy my trooper killed.

 

I want the story now, not the grind. So I subscribed to play those characters through their stories, and they were awesome.

[MandFlurry]

We've been through this 12X xp thing before, and Most ppl Want 12X, whether others even don't like it. Anti-12X'ers are full of crab in saying it ruins the game, which it doesn't.

 

A Good player is a good player, whether he/ she is new or not. A Bad player is a bad player no matter how long they have been here. It has a Lot to do with if ppl want to learn how to play or not. There is still ppl from launch that can't play right.

 

For player like me who have Physical problems like me, then 12X xp is a God-send that should not ever be taken' away. 12X should Always be an Option.

 

And for other players like me who have already also done tons of side-quests over and over. We don't need some idiots telling us how to play. We are sick and tired of doing the same crap over and over again, and a Lot of us also don't want to Auto-60 and want to make our own Storyline Decisions.

 

With Auto-lvl 60, we can't make any Light-sided decisions if were from the S.Empire. And if we Auto-lvl 60 on the Republic side, we can't any dar-sided decisions, which i hate that with a passion.

 

 

The Keyword is Choice. We should always have the choice to do 12X xp. We should always have that right, and wouldn't mind Paying for 12X xp either. Like Cartel.

[SelinaH]

I'm pretty certain that there's still a large subsect who download this game with the intention of playing an MMO- which yes. Does generally include periodically grouping up with others to acheive various objectives.

And those players still group up -- with friends or guildies.

 

They just won't group up with you.*

 

 

 

 

*Generic "you", not intended to single out any specific player, group of players or collective consciousness. Some restrictions apply. Offer not valid in the Tion Cluster.

[Djiini]

Shh, OP. It'll all be over soon.

 

*strokes hair*

[Philmors]

I personally think the 12x XP is a good thing. People may not group up to level but they do get more characters to the level cap now and can group up for the stuff there now. That's where most people want to group up at in my opinion.

[Bomyne]

I agree with you 1200% OP!

 

It's kind of weird to me how many people here sneer at the prospect of group content. You all do realize this is an MMO and not KOTOR 3, right? Also they spent 200 million dollars on the vanilla content. I really doubt that it was the original developers vision that skipping 90% of it would become the norm.

That is exactly what this game is. KOTOR3.

 

But there's nothing that can be done at this stage. All I hope is that when 12x is gone, it's gone for good. And that the major over-hauls we'll be seeing next month won't break group content any further. Because quite frankly, if I wanted to play a single player game I wouldn't be a subscriber to an MMO.

When 12x is gone, I still won't be playing any worthless group content. I still won't be running OPs, and flashpoints will only be run if I can do them with my girlfriend.

 

I don't care about the designers vision. When the designers... or you.... pay for my sub, THEN you can tell me how to enjoy this game. Until then, I will enjoy it by only doing class quests, and only doing the main storyline on Makeb and planets that come after it. I might do the occasional space battle, but never Galactic Starfighter.

 

Why? Because this is KOTOR 3 to me. It is a single player game with a co-op feature that I can play with my girlfriend if I want to.

 

I hope that the developers see how important 12x is and make it here to stay.

Edited September 29, 2015 by Bomyne

[Cuiwe]

What's the point of xp anyhow? It's an outdated system imo.

[well]

Well I wasn't grouping before 12 XP. Once in a great while I would but it was rare. With the exception of PVP. Their working on a Solo version of that. Oh wait they have 4X4s. So they do have it on occasion. Back OT. Reason I don't group much is other people. D2/LOD I spent most my time in groups. Why. Because it was fun. Silly thing is you just went out and played the game. It was rare to have to deal with a bunch whiners or princesses . There are a lot of folks want to spend their time playing the game. They don't want to deal with any drama. People don't group because of other people. At least that is my view. Oh that it is a MMO doesn't mean your required to group. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to Solo.

[Vasflam]

That is exactly what this game is. KOTOR3.

 

 

When 12x is gone, I still won't be playing any worthless group content. I still won't be running OPs, and flashpoints will only be run if I can do them with my girlfriend.

 

I don't care about the designers vision. When the designers... or you.... pay for my sub, THEN you can tell me how to enjoy this game. Until then, I will enjoy it by only doing class quests, and only doing the main storyline on Makeb and planets that come after it. I might do the occasional space battle, but never Galactic Starfighter.

 

Why? Because this is KOTOR 3 to me. It is a single player game with a co-op feature that I can play with my girlfriend if I want to.

 

I hope that the developers see how important 12x is and make it here to stay.

 

I-4Me2 drives by, spraying it's "Me me me me I me me I me" - signal all over the thread.

 

So much of flaming and ridicule of the OP coming from people who have absolutely no intention of seeing past themselves. It is staggering how many people care nothing of what is happening in the community they, too, belong to. Ohdontgetmewrong, I don't expect anybody here to be some unselfish MMO saint driven by some "Common good". I certainly am not. It's just that for entirely selfish reasons, I want this game and it's many subcommunities to remain healthy, vibrant and diverse. I feel this would benefit the game and by extension me(and you) in ways much more obvious than some gleeful and repeated declarations of intention to never interact with other people in any way would.

 

 

Few important points some people missed from OP.

 

- No matter how devoted you are to never play with multiple players in this massively multiplayer online game you decided to pay for, it does good for you, too, if the multiple mini communities of SW:TOR remain vibrant, diverse and popular.

 

- Majority of people who try SW:TOR will spend majority of their time leveling. This majority doesn't see or deal with the end game. It does good for the game if this majority is, despite this, more present and distributed in all activities of the game.

 

- I 'm not asking BW to remove 12xXP or it's likely, alleged and similar KOTFE era replacement. - I'm underlining how irrational it is that this is the only aspect of the game elevated in such fashion. Why does one activity give 1200% better rewards than others? Can you see no flaw in this?

Specially when the said 1200% activity can, and usually is, done entirely solo and isolated from rest of the world. Person enjoying the totally epic Cinematic Bioware Storytelling Experience is usually completely isolated from rest of the fictional world around him. In no meaningful way does it matter to you if 30 other people are currently busy doing same errands for Barras that you are. You don't need other people to spin the dialogue wheel. On the other hand, people who like low level War Zones, Flashpoints, GSF greatly depend and benefit from large, vibrant community. Why is it then, that game does nothing to encourage people to enjoy these activities just as well? And actually, and just as interestingly, why are YOU, dear KOTOR 3 singleplayer, so worked up by the idea that game would reward people from these activities too? What would it take away from you?

- For the record, I am not even asking for rest of the activities to be elevated to equal measure of XP rewards. Rather, I'd see rewards that are even COMPARABLE. You feel it would be such a bad thing if rewards were, say, 50% more modest as opposed to ONE THOUSAND AND TWO HUNDRED PERCENT more modest?

 

Instead of steady barrage of totally snarky insults (nobody likes to play with op! lolololol" ) I'd love to see some sort of replies to questions asked towards the end of this post.

Edited September 29, 2015 by Vasflam

[Cuiwe]

But Bioware spoke, Vas:

 

This game is about STORY. **** the nomenclature! It's such a petty point that it is ridiculous. What they are doing with KotFE they should've been doing all along: focusing on story. I'd also like if classes got rebalanced so they're more fun to play more early(yeah PlasmaTech is like...ok, some passives REALLY need to swap places!). Story, story, story. This is what Bioware is good at. Bioware isn't THAT different from Telltale if you think about it. And does anyone expect UT experience from Telltale? No. Why should you from Bioware then? And yes, this is, to quote Ericson, "KoTOR 3...12".

 

DEAL WITH IT

[Faelandaea]

Very simple - 12x XP is OPTIONAL. if you do not like it, do not use it. Stop trying to force your gameplay style on everyone just because you do not like an OPTIONAL perk being available.

 

I loved the 12x exp because i was able to get all of the stories done. The best part of that is i did not have to do every side quest on each of those toons as i played through. After 4 play throughs the side quests loose there appeal because unlike your story they are the same quest every time.

 

Exactly how I feel, but there will always be the elitist crowd that feels that since they want to do everything the hard way and take ages to level 22 different characters that we all have to do it that way as well.

 

Don't get me wrong, I am all for the option to turn 12x XP off - so that everyone is happy, but that is not what this thread is about. What this thread is about is the idea of the following:

 

"I am driving the scenic route to get to my destination. One of my peers left at the same time I did, but took the direct route and got there right away. While I enjoyed seeing the scenery, I am VERY angry at my peer for getting to the destination sooner, so I must try to implore him and everyone else that it is morally and completely wrong to drive directly to the destination. I could care less that my peer has already driven the scenic route multiple times - how DARE he drive directly to his destination and arrive before me."

 

Threads about 12x XP keep popping up here and there - and they translate precisely to the above paragraph in comparison.

Edited September 29, 2015 by Faelandaea

[Knorlac]

It all boils down to OP, myself and all those who see a problem with 12xXP being a minority at least in this game.

 

Just drive around fleet and compare the amount of players who have an active white acute module to the amount of players featuring XP boosts for example.

There are more people who can't wait to get their char into the endgame treadmill as there are people who love experiencing all of the sidequests and just playing their character. Things like low level heroics and FPs just get in their way.

 

We also have the StarWars IP, that is IMO both a blessing and a curse. Without it, the game would have failed even more spectacularly after launch and probably wouldn't be around any longer. But on the other hand it brought in a lot of people who stick around for their SW story fix but are not interested in its MMO features.

 

Lastly, the MMO audience as such has much changed IMO. The majority of players doesn't want a challenge while levelling and they don't want to have to group up in order to beat leveling content.

Today doing a sidequest once per character is already considered grind when in the past having to kill literally hundreds of the same mobs just to level up enough to beat the next tier of content was nothing unusual.

 

There is no way in hell BW will reduce the current speed of levelling (1-50 content) with KotFE, but I 100% agree with OP that other activities like heroics and FPs should yield better rewards in comparison to just blasting through the class missions so that they might become more populated again.

Edited September 29, 2015 by Knorlac

[Bomyne]

I-4Me2 drives by, spraying it's "Me me me me I me me I me" - signal all over the thread.

 

So much of flaming and ridicule of the OP coming from people who have absolutely no intention of seeing past themselves. It is staggering how many people care nothing of what is happening in the community they, too, belong to. Ohdontgetmewrong, I don't expect anybody here to be some unselfish MMO saint driven by some "Common good". I certainly am not. It's just that for entirely selfish reasons, I want this game and it's many subcommunities to remain healthy, vibrant and diverse. I feel this would benefit the game and by extension me(and you) in ways much more obvious than some gleeful and repeated declarations of intention to never interact with other people in any way would.]

 

 

So because you want to group up and do group content, I'm selfish for only wanting to do class story and main story content?

 

Group content is of no benefit to me. It is not FUN for me. I don't even want to acknowledge it is in the game.

 

And you know what? That is fine. Because it is MY subscription fee, and MY playtime.

 

How I play this game should be no one elses business. I'm not hurting you by playing it my way.

[Faelandaea]

There are more people who can't wait to get their char into the endgame treadmill as there are people who love experiencing all of the sidequests and just playing their character. Things like low level heroics and FPs just get in their way.

 

Not a single person so far has said they do not enjoy seeing all the content of this game. If anyone has, link me and prove me wrong, but I haven;t seen a single post like this.

 

In my case, for my first couple characters on each faction, I did do all the side quests, FPs, heroics - everything. If it could be done, I did it. But the difference between side quests and the main story is they are the same. The story differs, but the side quests will always be the EXACT same no matter how many times you play them. So it boils down to not everyone wanting to grind the same repetitive stuff over and over and over again to be able to experience a different story.

 

Most of the characters I just leveled I will not be playing fulltime - not even part time. But I did want to see all the stories, and this 12x XP boost enabled me to do so. i loved it, and as a result I now have more time to work on the classes I DO play full time.

 

So in no way does the ability to quickly level an alt amount to no one appreciating the game. I'd be willing to bet that even with the 12x XP boost, new players are still trying to experience as much as they can so they get the fullest out of the game. It's only the vets with multiple alts that are making these story-only runs.

[Vasflam]

But Bioware spoke, Vas:

 

What they are doing with KotFE they should've been doing all along: focusing on story. I'd also like if classes got rebalanced so they're more fun to play more early(yeah PlasmaTech is like...ok, some passives REALLY need to swap places!). Story, story, story. This is what Bioware is good at. Bioware isn't THAT different from Telltale if you think about it. And does anyone expect UT experience from Telltale? No. Why should you from Bioware then? And yes, this is, to quote Ericson, "KoTOR 3...12".

 

 

What they are doing with KotFE they should've been doing all along: focusing on story

 

You have a pretty selective memory. Vanilla game came with hundreds of hours of story content. Eight personal class stories, dozens and dozens of companions, romances. Sheer scale and quantity of everything so vast that everything released since, prolly KOTFE included, appears a miniature at best. You remembered how well all that went down, right? SW:TOR had a disappointing post-launch months. It recovered from disappointing launch to healthy afterlife by focusing heavily on MMO side of the game. Work in this field stabilized the sub base and made game a success. Colossal measure of stories is something that has been here all along. Bioware's faith in class stories making the game a huge success was utterly misplaced.

 

Some of the stories Telltale tells are pretty awesome. Their Games(or rather, visual novels perhaps!) sacrifice everything else on altar of this story. Actual game or gameplay is, at best, stripped. This gives them means and tools to focus on building excellent characters.

 

SW:TOR on the other hand is a massive, 200++ million dollar MMO. Hundreds of hours of very varied, interesting, even often unique amusement park rides. And you compare this vast, massive, fairly beautiful thing to a freaking Telltale game? In your books, SW:TOR shares common ground with Telltale's series of game-ishes purely because they both tell a story you like? I can't even imagine how depressing community this is to some few hundred devs who build SW:TOR. Small wonder they never visit.; p They build a gigantic 200 mil game for you and all you see and appreciate is pile of dialogue wheels spinning about. Vocal portion of the forum community reminds of some dude who sits in a Corvette, solely admiring the pair of big ol hairy pink dice hanging from the rear view mirror and ignoring car, engine, leather seating and the whole..THING around them.

 

 

I'm officially done with this thread; Half of the people here don't read or comprehend the OP at all. Other half buys an MMO and thinks they are playing a freaking Telltale game. Questions like " Why can't game give roughly equal measures of experience from all of it¨s main activities?" is met with deal with it -memes and sunglass smileys. I have absolutely no desire to keep reading/participating in this conversation in any way at all anymore. I've said my piece and clarified the points made in OP enough. Vocal bits of the community, on the other hand, ha made it extremely clear how they see and experience this game. Enjoy your stories!

 

Ultimately, the variety in MMOs and the sub-communities still exsisting is a huge boon; I'm very pleased and fortunate to be able to spend all of my TOR gameplay time with people who experience the game in fashion that is entirely different from yours.

Edited September 29, 2015 by Vasflam

[Bomyne]

f of the people here don't read or comprehend the OP at all. Other half buys and MMO and thinks they are playing a freaking Telltale game. Questions like " Why can't game reward equal measures of experience from all activity" is met with deal with it -memes and sunglass smileys. I have absolutely no desire to keep reading/participating in this conversation in any way at all anymore. Enjoy your stories!

 

I am playing a Bioware game. Bioware is big on story, and KOTOR3... this game... reflects that.

 

I have done all the side missions a dozen times. I do not want to do them again. That is why I am enjoying the 12x XP bonus.

 

With or without the bonus, I am not going to play the multiplayer content.

 

Do you know how much group content I had to play in Mass Effect 2? None. Do you know how much I played in Mass Effect 3? None.

[Storm-Cutter]

The dev team could encourage grouping by upping the social ratings. - And put some cosmetic gear and titles obtainable at social 15 or 20, that people really aspire to. - that way it encourages group content.

 

Maybe even give a few social points for grouping PvP & GSF - a few for a solo queue, more for a group Queue, for instance.

 

But solo players don't want to group, guilds usually run content together - and those that want a bit of both will do their thing with GF. Nothing will change much, however you re-design FPs.

 

It must be a dev PITA to match differing levels and group makeup and roles and difficulty to the gear reward at the end of a FP - Under-geared people will get carried and my win good loot, while over-geared characters do the donkey-work for vendor trash....

 

That and the community want a new FP every 2/3 weeks - Unless you can computer generate & test FPs, the task is Herculean.

[Knorlac]

Not a single person so far has said they do not enjoy seeing all the content of this game. If anyone has, link me and prove me wrong, but I haven;t seen a single post like this.

 

In my case, for my first couple characters on each faction, I did do all the side quests, FPs, heroics - everything. If it could be done, I did it. But the difference between side quests and the main story is they are the same. The story differs, but the side quests will always be the EXACT same no matter how many times you play them. So it boils down to not everyone wanting to grind the same repetitive stuff over and over and over again to be able to experience a different story.

 

Most of the characters I just leveled I will not be playing fulltime - not even part time. But I did want to see all the stories, and this 12x XP boost enabled me to do so. i loved it, and as a result I now have more time to work on the classes I DO play full time.

 

So in no way does the ability to quickly level an alt amount to no one appreciating the game. I'd be willing to bet that even with the 12x XP boost, new players are still trying to experience as much as they can so they get the fullest out of the game. It's only the vets with multiple alts that are making these story-only runs.

 

I didn't say that no one enjoys doing this at all. And I agree that most new players probably do at least a fair portion of it while leveling. However most people who like yourself have seen this stuff a couple of times are skipping over it now inluding the lower lvl group content because compared to the 12xXP class quests they're inefficient.

 

I don't begrudge anyone's option to use the 12xXP system. I'm just agreeing with the OP that BW's implementation of it has thrown the games classic MMO features off balance.

If group activities would yield at least similar XP/rewards more people might take part in them. As it stands now, my queue times (as DPS) in FF XIV for example never exceed 20mins and are usually much shorter, while in SWTOR, I have to wait up to 2 hours if I'm unlucky.

[LordJestR]

I really don't see any problem. Levelling in most MMO's have always been a solo affair with majority of the multiplayer experience at max level with raids and operations.

 

If you are arguing against 12XP, are you trying to tell me you enjoy the long and tedious vanilla leveling experience? Not just on your first toon but also on your fourth or fifth alt?

[Knorlac]

I really don't see any problem. Levelling in most MMO's have always been a solo affair with majority of the multiplayer experience at max level with raids and operations.

 

If you are arguing against 12XP, are you trying to tell me you enjoy the long and tedious vanilla leveling experience? Not just on your first toon but also on your fourth or fifth alt?

 

I'm enjoying it on my 21st char right now, yes and there are still decisions I've never made and voice acted lines I've never heard. But that's beside the point.

Neither OP nor I are arguing against 12xXP as such. The problem is that for people who do want to level up quickly, the solo class missions are the only efficient way to do so. If low level group content (as an option) yielded similar rewards, it might help to expand the pool of players participating in them.

Edited September 29, 2015 by Knorlac