Harm in 12xXP

[LordBalzack]

I agree with you 1200% OP!

 

It's kind of weird to me how many people here sneer at the prospect of group content. You all do realize this is an MMO and not KOTOR 3, right? Also they spent 200 million dollars on the vanilla content. I really doubt that it was the original developers vision that skipping 90% of it would become the norm.

 

I must be getting old or something. I actually found the exp rates to be pretty darn high prior to the 12x implementation. I was often graying out quests by the time I was finishing up on planets as a subscriber, on top of running each FP at least once.

 

I was also having a fun time running group content prior to 12x. Now, the rare times queues actually pop I find players who are running things for the first time on higher level FP's. People without the slightest bit of knowledge on how you play in a group, with total garbage gear (due to not having the time to learn how to gear properly) starting on something like The Foundry is just stupid

 

There is a entry FP called Black Talon/Esseles for people to learn how to play in. But you know what happens when you finish class missions on a starting planet? You completely level out of it. That's just poor implementation, if you ask me.

 

Oh, and don't even get me started on guilds...I had the poor foresight to think it would actually be a smart idea to create a guild a couple weeks ago with the intention of running group content. I was hoping to be able to play through the game with people to learn strenghts and weaknesses. Grooming up what would eventually be a decent core group for downing content.

 

You know what the reality has been though? Even though I have specifically recruited old school MMO vets who actually enjoy group content, they are leveling so insanely fast over the course a matter of hours, that nobody is ever in similar enough level ranges to do content together. So they are hitting max level, left feeling a little unfullfilled, and then either quit or create another alt.

 

Now this is where people will chime in "JUST USE THE WHITE ACUTE MODULE THEN." And you bet I do. But a hard to find opt-out item is not a fix for the problems I've been seeing.

 

But there's nothing that can be done at this stage. All I hope is that when 12x is gone, it's gone for good. And that the major over-hauls we'll be seeing next month won't break group content any further. Because quite frankly, if I wanted to play a single player game I wouldn't be a subscriber to an MMO.

Edited September 28, 2015 by LordBalzack

[jstankaroslo]

I agree with you 1200% OP!

 

It's kind of weird to me how many people here sneer at the prospect of group content. You all do realize this is an MMO and not KOTOR 3, right? Also they spent 200 million dollars on the vanilla content. I really doubt that it was the original developers vision that skipping 90% of it would become the norm.

 

I must be getting old or something. I actually found the exp rates to be pretty darn high prior to the 12x implementation. I was often graying out quests by the time I was finishing up on planets as a subscriber, on top of running each FP at least once.

 

I was also having a fun time running group content prior to 12x. Now, the rare times queues actually pop I find players who are running things for the first time on higher level FP's. People without the slightest bit of knowledge on how you play in a group, with total garbage gear (due to not having the time to learn how to gear properly) starting on something like The Foundry is just stupid

 

There is a entry FP called Black Talon/Esseles for people to learn how to play in. But you know what happens when you finish class missions on a starting planet? You completely level out of it. That's just poor implementation, if you ask me.

 

Oh, and don't even get me started on guilds...I had the poor foresight to think it would actually be a smart idea to create a guild a couple weeks ago with the intention of running group content. I was hoping to be able to play through the game with people to learn strenghts and weaknesses. Grooming up what would eventually be a decent core group for downing content.

 

You know what the reality has been though? Even though I have specifically recruited old school MMO vets who actually enjoy group content, they are leveling so insanely fast over the course a matter of hours, that nobody is ever in similar enough level ranges to do content together. So they are hitting max level, left feeling a little unfullfilled, and then either quit or create another alt.

 

Now this is where people will chime in "JUST USE THE WHITE ACUTE MODULE THEN." And you bet I do. But a hard to find opt-out item is not a fix for the problems I've been seeing.

 

But there's nothing that can be done at this stage. All I hope is that when 12x is gone, it's gone for good. And that the major over-hauls we'll be seeing next month won't break group content any further. Because quite frankly, if I wanted to play a single player game I wouldn't be a subscriber to an MMO.

 

people with this attitude make me wanna play more solo

[LordBalzack]

people with this attitude make me wanna play more solo

 

I know right? Such audacity!

 

How dare I enjoy playing through an MMO as it was originally intended.

[KerryK]

i just hope 12x goes bye bye when this new expansion hits

[MSchuyler]

I agree with you 1200% OP! It's kind of weird to me how many people here sneer at the prospect of group content. You all do realize this is an MMO and not KOTOR 3, right?

 

THAT old pedantic argument. Life is an MMO. That doesn't mean I'm going to invite you to dinner. Your attitude is the same that prevailed (and prevails) in many societies that condone forced marriages to benefit both families, even though the bride and groom can't stand each other. That's a completely totalitarian environment.

 

The fact is, I do not wish to play with you. I do not play for your pleasure and enjoyment. I do not want to consider you when making my choices. I don't want to press spacebar because you have done it before. I don't want to press "need" and have you ***** about it. I don't want to listen to you criticize my gear. I don't want your help. I don't want to help you. I don't want you as a friend. I don't want to be your friend. I don't want you as a guild mate.

 

The only thing I want from you is for you to leave me alone. And from these many pages of replies, I know I am not the only one who feels this way. I don't understand why you don't get that, but I don't really care why you don't get that either. The fact is, the way I play and who I play with, if anyone, is none of your damned business and I highly resent any attempt by you to insinuate yourself into my own game play. I'm not forcing myself on you. Why the hell do you think it is okay for you to force yourself on me?

 

You and I both have a choice whether to use 12XP. I couldn't care less what choice you make. It's none of your business what choice I make and my choice does not affect you because I would never group with you whether 12XP existed or didn't exist. 12XP is a choice. My choice. Which is none of your business. Don't go away mad; just go away.

[Heat-Wave]

You don't have to only do class missions My girlfriend is leveling by doing all but the heroic quests on everyplanet, even with the 12x. I'm doing only class missions.

 

I want to only do class missions, nothing else. Its a choice.

 

While that is true, when class missions pay 12 basic comms and piles of XP and planet missions pay 1 basic comm and almost no XP, it takes a lot of the punch out of doing them.

 

The whole game is just a carrot, without it the shallowness shows.

[Heat-Wave]

It's kind of weird to me how many people here sneer at the prospect of group content. You all do realize this is an MMO and not KOTOR 3, right? Also they spent 200 million dollars on the vanilla content. I really doubt that it was the original developers vision that skipping 90% of it would become the norm.

 

No, it wasn't... but the original devs were idiots which is why they aren't around anymore.

 

The real problem is the gating of content behind levels, either it is impossible because it is 10 levels over you or faceroll easy when 10 levels under you.

 

The whole idea of a MMO is grouping up to do stuff, but this game works really hard to rip you apart. If you want to level with a friend, you more or less have to dedicate that toon to JUST leveling with them, or you get out of sync really fast.

 

If any MMO screamed for no levels at all, rather just learned skills, abilities, and gear, this one would be it.

 

You know what the reality has been though? Even though I have specifically recruited old school MMO vets who actually enjoy group content, they are leveling so insanely fast over the course a matter of hours, that nobody is ever in similar enough level ranges to do content together. So they are hitting max level, left feeling a little unfullfilled, and then either quit or create another alt.

 

Right, so that is why they are doing all the existing SM FP in tactical mode scaled from lvl 10-65, so that you can overcome this problem.

 

And it will, but then you'll end up with a LOT of people who THINK they know how to run a FP, then they will try a HM FP at 65 and have their rear end handed to them. That'll be fun.

 

The reality is that the original game design was flawed.

 

But there's nothing that can be done at this stage. All I hope is that when 12x is gone, it's gone for good. And that the major over-hauls we'll be seeing next month won't break group content any further. Because quite frankly, if I wanted to play a single player game I wouldn't be a subscriber to an MMO.

 

I wish you well, but this game has gone heavy to the single player side in the past year or so. All the SM FP are getting solo modes as well, which will further ruin end game.

 

As it stands, I found it much easier when 3.0 dropped to get a group together to run OPS than today. Way too many people have leveled up this summer who don't know what they are doing. Wiping on stuff that should be easy.

 

Sigh...

[Uruare]

ITT: Dude isn't happy that he can have or disable 12x XP because he thinks he he knows better than everyone else how they should be having fun.

[Draqsko]

You all do realize this is an MMO and not KOTOR 3, right?

 

Much as I hate to do this...

 

You realize this is KOTOR 3-11+ now and not an MMO anymore right?

 

Don't think I am disagreeing with the rest of your post though, because I am not. This just isn't the same game as the one you bought 3 years ago, and people who enjoy group content are a tiny minority now compared to those who just want to see the stories. We've been outvoted and now the only thing to do is watch the consequences of that vote. Complaining vociferously just makes people look like sore losers.

[Uruare]

I know right? Such audacity!

 

How dare I enjoy playing through an MMO as it was originally intended.

 

I'm gonna spend an extra hundred bucks on SWTOR this month just to thumb my nose at your obsolete opinion. You go right ahead and think that 'intended to be' means squat in a commercial industry.

 

I'm going to post my vote in the form of financially supporting that which gives me what I want.

 

Given the direction the game's been going, I'm going to say that people like me are winning this argument very one-sidedly.

 

Hurrah e episodic story content!

Edited September 28, 2015 by Uruare

[g_land]

It's kind of weird to me how many people here sneer at the prospect of group content. You all do realize this is an MMO and not KOTOR 3, right? Also they spent 200 million dollars on the vanilla content. I really doubt that it was the original developers vision that skipping 90% of it would become the norm.

 

I must be getting old or something. I actually found the exp rates to be pretty darn high prior to the 12x implementation. I was often graying out quests by the time I was finishing up on planets as a subscriber, on top of running each FP at least once.

 

So if the original designers didn't want you to skip stuff, why was it possible to level 1-50 with just planetary quests and their side quests at launch? There wasn't even a groupfinder at launch so it was easier to solo level, and pvp past level 20 never gave any reasonable amount of experience.

 

The game was devoted to story from the beginning and almost 100% of that story content is possible as a solo character at level, the one exclusion being flashpoints which you could always over-level and then return to later since they weren't tied to any planetary quest stories. 12xp therefore fits in perfectly with the original developers designs. Karaga's palace past bone thrasher wasn't even in the game at launch either.

 

Unlike some, bioware has realized that you can only ask people to complete the same content so many times before it becomes terribly stale. At least with class stories, people get to run actual different stories across 8 base classes.

[LordBalzack]

Much as I hate to do this...

 

You realize this is KOTOR 3-11+ now and not an MMO anymore right?

 

Don't think I am disagreeing with the rest of your post though, because I am not. This just isn't the same game as the one you bought 3 years ago, and people who enjoy group content are a tiny minority now compared to those who just want to see the stories. We've been outvoted and now the only thing to do is watch the consequences of that vote. Complaining vociferously just makes people look like sore losers.

 

I guess I just wasn't expecting to be on an MMO forum as a minority player who actually likes MMO's. It's kind of like I've entered the Twilight Zone or something.

[LordBalzack]

I wish you well, but this game has gone heavy to the single player side in the past year or so. All the SM FP are getting solo modes as well, which will further ruin end game.

 

As it stands, I found it much easier when 3.0 dropped to get a group together to run OPS than today. Way too many people have leveled up this summer who don't know what they are doing. Wiping on stuff that should be easy.

 

Sigh...

 

Yeah the last time I played a lot was probably early 2014 and SM Flashpoints were still a real joy. People knew how to mark targets, how to do intelligent pulls, how to focus fire and manage aggro. As well as waiting before engaging a complicated boss to ask what the mechanics are. That's all really lacking right now because there's no sense of FP progression.

 

Like I mentioned earlier, there is a reason that you get pushed into doing Black Talon and Esseles the way you do. It was a smart way to implement a beginner FP to get people on board and up to speed on how everything works. Follow that up with Hammer Station- which ups the difficulty and forces you to learn basic group dynamics of tank and spank . And includes an end boss that requires basic communication to know how to effectively tank and therefore beat.

 

12x has just kind of made that aspect of the game go *poof* and disappear. Sure, vets are thrilled they can finally level that alt they've been stuck on forever. But the ramifications for newer players is rather dire. And in my opinion, games like this should always be designed with new players in mind.

 

Anyways I'm going on a tangent, but I'm definitely with you on being rather wary of the changes coming down the line. I hope that the switch to tactical SM Flashpoints will be a net positive change though, and not have as dire of ramifications on HM's as you (and I to an extent) fear.

[DalekTheCat]

I guess I just wasn't expecting to be on an MMO forum as a minority player who actually likes MMO's. It's kind of like I've entered the Twilight Zone or something.

 

And now you see why so many MMO players are wondering if they should leave the game.

[LordBalzack]

And now you see why so many MMO players are wondering if they should leave the game.

 

It would be nice if what few who are left didn't lurk in the shadows while people try to shout us out of threads though (literally someone has already told me to go away on top of calling me a Nazi lol).

 

I mean, lets look at WoW for a moment. The community is full of toxic garbage and people who want an easy mode everything. But even there in that vile cesspool of a game I doubt people are actively trying to discourage MMO players from...playing an MMO.

 

I really hope this is a case of a forum minority. Because if this is endemic of the community as a whole, this game isn't going to last a heck of a lot longer, regardless of expansions or upcoming movies.

Edited September 28, 2015 by LordBalzack

[XiamaraSimi]

I I doubt people are actively trying to discourage MMO players from...playing an MMO.

 

Its more we are aggrivated on you trying to dictate to us how -we- play said MMO.

 

Play as you want, group if you want, but dont demand -we- stop doing what -we- want to do to help -you- do what -you- want to make -your- mmo experience easier.

 

And yes, complaining that we wont group with you to help you through your flashpoints is demanding we stop playing how we want to help -you- play the way -you- want.

Edited September 28, 2015 by XiamaraSimi

[MSchuyler]

I guess I just wasn't expecting to be on an MMO forum as a minority player who actually likes MMO's. It's kind of like I've entered the Twilight Zone or something.

 

Your problem is that you persist in a narrow definition of MMOs. To you an MMO means group play, but that's a very narrow viewpoint. You could just as well say an MMO means PvP to the exclusion of PvE because, you know, you have to fight each other.

 

The acronym MMO means "Massive Multi-player Online." There's nothing in that acronym that insists those massive number of players MUST cooperate and do Ops together. There's plenty of room to allow both, and since the very beginning of SWTOR players have been allowed to DO both. Yes, you CAN do Ops, but you don't have to just as you CAN do PvP, but you are not required to.

 

The idea here is to promote diversity and attract the greatest number of players. The mystery here is why you and a couple of others continue to insist that YOUR way of playing is the ONLY way of playing and that if someone decides to take advantage of the many other opportunities they are somehow harming you. It's even more of a mystery when you claim the game will die unless everyone plays just like you do. That's simply laughable.

 

If you play PvP and I don't, does that harm you? Does that harm me?

If I play PvP and you don't, does that harm you? Does that harm me?

 

Of course not. And to insist on YOUR definition of MMO as it's "My way or the highway" is ludicrous. You have neither the right to insist on such a definition nor the power to enforce it, for which the rest of us can be grateful.

 

I have NEVER insisted you play the way I do. For you to insist I play the way you do is a complete and utter affront and as far as I am concerned, a violation of my right as a player to play the way I want to without any "input" from you.

Edited September 28, 2015 by MSchuyler

[Gokkus]

I guess I just wasn't expecting to be on an MMO forum as a minority player who actually likes MMO's. It's kind of like I've entered the Twilight Zone or something.

 

Errr you go around this thread saying this is an MMO and then say you are one of the few who likes MMO's...how do you figure that works?

 

I understand you are greatly overdramatizing but Ive seen no change in waiting times for FP pops since 12exp is around. Also, if you are indeed a tiny minority then it is a good thing BW is not listening to you since it makes far more sense to cater to the majority. That same majority that decides how the game is 'supposed' to be played btw.

 

Some of your points are valid but that is hard to see because of the narrow-mindedness.

 

 

PS: ah I see someone beat me to the narrow-minded argument. I largely agree with Schuyler on that front.

[Draqsko]

I guess I just wasn't expecting to be on an MMO forum as a minority player who actually likes MMO's. It's kind of like I've entered the Twilight Zone or something.

 

Maybe the pendulum will swing back and the focus will be on group content in the future, but right now we are like King Canute trying to command the tides to stop. It's time to hang up the crown, the tide isn't stopping.

[kirorx]

I love it.

 

I already had 8 max level characters and while I enjoyed the storylines, I didnt feel like leveling again.

 

Now, I create new characters frequently to enjoy the storyline.

 

The only difference between 12x exp and not 12x exp is that I level new characters, I enjoy content that I had not seen since release of the game. It enticed me to go back and reroll and just enjoy playing as a new character.

[LordBalzack]

Errr you go around this thread saying this is an MMO and then say you are one of the few who likes MMO's...how do you figure that works?

 

I understand you are greatly overdramatizing but Ive seen no change in waiting times for FP pops since 12exp is around. Also, if you are indeed a tiny minority then it is a good thing BW is not listening to you since it makes far more sense to cater to the majority. That same majority that decides how the game is 'supposed' to be played btw.

 

I like how in a thread where I'm actively being called an evil dictator who wants to shove my ideals down the throats of everyone and force them to play the way I want simply because I gave reasons that I dislike 12x, me mentioning that FP queues are not popping as frequently anymore is what's being called up as an "overdramatization."

 

Really, truly. This is the Twilight Zone.

 

As far as the minority/majority is concerned. I am obviously the minority here on the forums, but I'm also not convinced that the forums are an accurate measuring stick for the will of the community.

 

I'm pretty certain that there's still a large subsect who download this game with the intention of playing an MMO- which yes. Does generally include periodically grouping up with others to acheive various objectives.

 

And just to make myself clear to those of you who think I want force you to play with me: Don't worry, I really have no desire whatsoever to play through any content with you. Please enjoy your single player experience to its fullest while not bothering me in my group content.

 

In fact, I'll save you some legwork here (this is mostly towards MSchuyler, but hey anyone else wants to jump in as well go for it!): I have 4 characters I play on Harbinger: Belzack, Keeleon, Jaredson, and Saurgon. If you're on there, please ignore all of them so that the game will force us to never PUG together.

Edited September 28, 2015 by LordBalzack

[MSchuyler]

In fact, I'll save you some legwork here (this is mostly towards MSchuyler, but hey if you want to jump in as well go for it!): I have 4 characters I play on Harbinger: Belzack, Keeleon, Jaredson, and Saurgon. If you're on there, please ignore all of them so that the game will force us to never PUG together.

 

Do you see how narrowly focused you are? Even after all this you can't get away from it. Since I don't PUG, it would never be an issue. MMO's, by definition, do not require it.

Edited September 28, 2015 by MSchuyler

[LordBalzack]

Since I don't PUG, it would never be an issue. MMO's, by definition, do not require it.

 

Well lets hope you never get the urge then. I'd hate to have my horrible, draconian play style ever thrust down your throat in any way!

[Khevar]

I like how in a thread where I'm actively being called an evil dictator who wants to shove my ideals down the throats of everyone and force them to play the way I want simply because I gave reasons that I dislike 12x, me mentioning that FP queues are not popping as frequently anymore is what's being called up as an "overdramatization."

You first came into this thread looking down your nose at everyone who prefers the solo experience, sneered at some comments, and acted like your viewpoint is patently superior to everyone else.

 

Then you twist simple statements like "don't dictate how we play" into "I'm actively being called an evil dictator"

 

And you're surprised at the reaction you're receiving?

 

 

You want to know something funny? I'm a player who prefers the "group" experience to the solo experience in this game. I wish it were MORE group friendly. I wish there were MORE things to do in a group.

 

And yet, I'm not on your side of this argument. Mainly because of your attitude. So imagine how the people that prefer solo play feel about your posts.

Edited September 29, 2015 by Khevar

[MSchuyler]

Well lets hope you never get the urge then. I'd hate to have my horrible, draconian play style ever thrust down your throat in any way!

 

Your previous posts indicate otherwise. If they had not I wouldn't have bothered replying. I'm sorry your feelings are hurt.