The Cartel Market - a good or bad thing?

[Andryah]

I completely agree with this.

 

False observation in context however.

 

It's not odd at all that decade old MMOs with significant installed base (ie: players invested in time and effort) will still draw subscribers and be able to live off them. DAoC is still sub.. but it's hardly thriving... but it is old and still has invested base in it.

 

Show me one MMO with a western audience released in the last 4 years that has been able to stay subscriber only and stay open.

 

EVE has it easier then WoW because it is a smaller company that fills a clear sandbox with good PvP niche. EVE owns their niche.

 

WoW... they are bleeding out subs again.. and while they can continue sub only... you won't see another Blizzard title that is subscriber only. Best guestimate is they are at about 2.5-3M paid subs (ignoring the 5M nonsub pay to access for Yuan in the China localization).

Edited June 27, 2013 by Andryah

[TUXs]

It's not odd at all. Those may be the only people you see, but I see many industry leaders and analysts instead. Many things in life still cling to the old ways but the end is on the horizon....gas burning cars, payphones, home phones and long distance, the PC, music on CDs, etc.

 

Just because some things are still popular and widely used now does not mean they will be in the future. More often than not a game either launches or converts to the F2P market RMT model. To state otherwise is fantasy frankly.

 

Again, it's the head in the sand technique. A person doesn't like whats coming so they find ways to try and pretend change will never come.

 

WoW is lightning in a bottle. That much has been said many times by many folks in the industry. As to Eve...again, its the careful management model that allowed the game to remain a sub. Eve is a sandbox. Eve is essentially a world wide open PVP game. Eve in no way is the industry standard.

 

But your right. Both games are doing quite well and will probably remain so for years to come.

 

I still believe we will see the sunset of the traditional sub model within this decade. The writing is on the wall...this model tends to be more profitable, less of a "money up front" requirement since it works as money in, money out and it seems folks generally enjoy it.

 

Understand...I too miss how things use to be. The difference is that I have decided that I have two choices...stop playing MMOs or adapt.

 

I choose the latter.

 

Not to mention the fact that this is only my opinion and is hardly the last word on the matter.

 

Perhaps you're correct. Maybe it is "dying" with all the free apps and such we have nowadays.

 

However, I see "sub model is dying" used as an excuse for all recently failed MMOs. DCU used it, STO used it, RIFT, LotrO, SWTOR, APB, Aion...games that all fell short of expectations. Bioware themselves even mocked F2P models prior to launch.

 

Players WILL pay a sub, and even buy things from a cash shop, to a game that they enjoy - W0W and Eve are evidence of that. The lack of any recent sub based model succeeding says more about the quality of games being released recently than it does the market.

 

The market may very well be shifting, but it's the games that are failing these days, not the sub model.

[Elfa]

I enjoy the Cartel Market myself. I haven't always enjoyed what they've chosen to do with it, but its nice to have a choice. I would have to say that without the CM, the game would most likely have closed by now so despite my feelings on it, it appears to be a net good for the game.

[Superman_AZ]

I like Cartel Coins in general. I've purchased a few things from the Market, but for the most part, I find myself buying $20 at a time (up to $150 at one point last weekend) and using them to unlock Legacy Perks for my new characters. Without the coins for unlocks, or the few gear sets / packs / unlocks I've purchased, I would likely never have re-subbed to the game. I like knowing I can drop $40 and have access to some packs and some unlocks at any given moment. For me, at least, the CCs and the CM they accompany, are a main draw to the game. Without them, I'd likely grow bored and move on to something else.

[Arkerus]

You think "I" am the emotional one? Wow...I assure you, my post was far less emotional than yours appears to be. And don't hyperbolize so much (like how I used that word too?) - my post did in fact contain actual FACTS (See Makeb and Cathar). It also contained many assumptions based on what I can observe, just like yours do.

 

I also never claimed they weren't investing in the game - I am saying that I believe they are on a limited budget, despite how well the CM does or does not do, I believe their budget is already set. SWTOR is no XBOX.

 

You used facts about Makeb (which was completely revamped to support level 55) to speculate about internal investments. That about as loose a connection you can make. I mean, your whole post about how of you're convinced EA was taking all the cash and no investment was being put back in. You don't have anything to back any of that up. Nothing. You can't even pull out balance sheet or news release to back that up. Not like you would be able to. But that's my point. You state things you believe with zero evidence to back up your claim. Evil EA is taking all the money! Bioware is just milking the cash market! It's cartoonishly silly.

 

Of course they are on a limited budget. That's how investment works. No project on the planet has unlimited funds. So....what were you getting at? WoW has a limited budget. Your point?

 

And the Xbox comment? Um...yeah. I just said that. Anything else?

Edited June 27, 2013 by Arkerus

[zzoorrzz]

Most of the stuff is being sold on the open market between players on the GTN.

 

The Cartel Market has been, broadly speaking, good for the game. People are making use of the content personally, and they are freely trading amongst the player base.... because the content is desired and enjoyed by many.

 

It's bad for some players "ideology" of course... but that does not mean it's bad for the game.

 

Ideology is self-limiting in MMOs...if you don't like the Cartel Market.. you do not have to use it. If its ideologically anathema to you, you can play an MMO that has no microtransaction shop in it. Or, you can complain about it in a gaming forum and achieve nothing at all but venting of personal frustration that the world does not unanimously follow your ideology.

 

And that's exactly what I'm doing. Criticizing things I don't agree with. That's, like, completely normal thing most of the people do.

[SithKoriandr]

False observation in context however.

 

It's not odd at all that decade old MMOs with significant installed base (ie: players invested in time and effort) will still draw subscribers and be able to live off them. DAoC is still sub.. but it's hardly thriving... but it is old and still has invested base in it.

 

Show me one MMO with a western audience released in the last 4 years that has been able to stay subscriber only and stay open.

 

EVE has it easier then WoW because it is a smaller company that fills a clear sandbox with good PvP niche. EVE owns their niche.

 

WoW... they are bleeding out subs again.. and while they can continue sub only... you won't see another Blizzard title that is subscriber only. Best guestimate is they are at about 2.5-3M paid subs (ignoring the 5M nonsub pay to access for Yuan in the China localization).

 

I'm willing to bet Final Fantasy will have not only a significant western audience but beable to stay sub based.

[LordArtemis]

Perhaps you're correct. Maybe it is "dying" with all the free apps and such we have nowadays.

 

However, I see "sub model is dying" used as an excuse for all recently failed MMOs. DCU used it, STO used it, RIFT, LotrO, SWTOR, APB, Aion...games that all fell short of expectations. Bioware themselves even mocked F2P models prior to launch.

 

Players WILL pay a sub, and even buy things from a cash shop, to a game that they enjoy - W0W and Eve are evidence of that. The lack of any recent sub based model succeeding says more about the quality of games being released recently than it does the market.

 

The market may very well be shifting, but it's the games that are failing these days, not the sub model.

 

Well, it's really splitting hairs IMO, but I have to concede that your viewpoint is a logical one. I would say that it certainly could be that the products entering the market are not worthy of a sub.

 

I would, however point out that the surviving sub models in the market were not at present quality when they launched. Perhaps one could say that the current market demands a quality that is difficult if not impossible to satisfy.

[Superman_AZ]

Perhaps one could say that the current market demands a quality that is difficult if not impossible to satisfy.

You've just described every game on the planet. There is no way to appeal to 100% of the players 100% of the time with a 100% success rate. It is more likely, statistically speaking, for me to have a 13-way with last years Playboy Calendar in the Playboy mansion without Hef finding out.

[pubstarrandi]

I have to agree with many. The Cartel Market is bittersweet. It's allowed customers who would prefer to dedicate more of their money into SWTOR to receive a benefit and provide revenue for EA, allowing them to create more and fund SWTOR for the rest of us. More items are available and many are very exciting and likely would not naturally fit into the lore of the game(e.g. Handmaiden Armor). I love that part(Pocket Sarlacc anyone?). From a trading perspective, it's really livened up the trading in the game. I personally think the decision to have almost everything sellable on GTN is one of the best decisions. It allows us that don't want to buy with CC to purchase those items, while providing others with more real cash revenue to purchase and trade for credits. Whether that's a wise decision likely depends on your RL job.

 

The bitter. Probably the most saddening, disconcerting, is the attention that the CM receives over providing items in-game(Ship upgrades, near crazy if purchased by coms over credits on GTN). Who wasn't disappointed to hear new character customization were available, until discovered they were only available from CC, with exorbitant prices at that. 3 tattoos for 200+ cc that were only available for one race? What happened to Legacy? The ability to add Mirialan on a Rattataki would have been awesome, totally compatible with the Legacy lore. Armor was somewhat disappointing as well. New expansion comes out and search for custom armor on GTN reveals 7 pages, compare to near 300 under adapt armor(I know, you're likely thinking it's just 5 levels. But those 5 levels come at a price of $10-20, with many aspects such as raids reused.) I think what ultimately makes some of the negatives aspects of the GTN more unforgivable is ultimately the price point. 200+ CC for 2-3 dyes, usually valued at 20-30k total, and most armor sets(many reused from current game pieces), priced at about $12-14!

 

Ultimately the CM is a good move, IMO. I do think the Cartel Market generally needs to see a price drop on armor/mounts/etc. 900cc for wicked awesome Eradicator armor is definitely a step in right direction. 600 CC Cather Species for subscribers? Not so much. Here's to the future of CM.

 

* Side note, as someone that sells on GTN and actively buys and saves item for when those items go scarce, I'll be frustrated if they bring back whole retired packs. Contraband resale isn't not terribly bad because of the high wall to buy those items (exception being the dang 10k chest pieces.)

[MSchuyler]

The Cartel Market is an option a sub need not use. You can get anything sold on the Cartel Market on the GTN anyway. It also is a success from an EA standpoint. In the 1Q14 earnings report it looks to me as if the Cartel Market revenue exceeds the loss of sub revenue as, according to EA, subs switch to F2P. As always, with Earnings Reports, one must not jump to conclusions.

 

But there's one thing the Cartel Market has done that is unquestionably true. It has provided a solid grounds for complaining by people who don't ever have to go there. It's a good punching bag and absorbs a lot of negative energy, all while contributing to EA's bottom line.

 

Priceless.

[Andryah]

The Cartel Market is an option a sub need not use. You can get anything sold on the Cartel Market on the GTN anyway. It also is a success from an EA standpoint. In the 1Q14 earnings report it looks to me as if the Cartel Market revenue exceeds the loss of sub revenue as, according to EA, subs switch to F2P. As always, with Earnings Reports, one must not jump to conclusions.

 

But there's one thing the Cartel Market has done that is unquestionably true. It has provided a solid grounds for complaining by people who don't ever have to go there. It's a good punching bag and absorbs a lot of negative energy, all while contributing to EA's bottom line.

 

Priceless.

 

Youz gotz necro-trolled.

[Kaisernick]

The only problem i have with it is that Eaware are focusing more and more on the market and less and less on much else, sure were getting the cerka thing soon but it seems 90% of the new armor that has been added since FTP has been on the CC market and sure u can buy them on the GTN but that also has become a problem as well. With many selling armor in the millions, selling things from the market has become a very easy way to make credits, i have also noticed a vast increase in credit sellers on starter planet that were almost non existent before and i think it is due to many feeling the need for more credits.

 

Are subs going to get new content or is subbing now simply a way to avoid the major restrictions in this game?

 

Also since the market apparently saved the game from death well what are the future plans for story content? I did like Makeb somewhat but if that is really all we have to look forward to from now on then i doubt ill keep playing, surely EAware can use the funds they are making to make a REAL exp im not asking for one right away but some sort of acknowledgement would be nice.

 

I fear that Ea will simply use this game to milk as much as they can out of it and when they feel that its no longer in their interest they will shut this game down faster than you can say "i have a bad feeling about this".

[Jacks-mask]

The Cartel Market is good for players who don't subscribe, but when EAware don't add any new armour to the game except for what they put on the Cartel Market then it isn't. If EAware spent as much time designing new content as they do designing Cartel Market items, more people would subscribe. It's a shame you can't delete posts because I didn't want people like you talking down to people.

 

I could not agree with you more, I really don't like the Cartel market and am astounded by the ridiculously high prices they put on things like legacy perks, etc and can't believe the lack of new content subscribers get as opposed to Cartel Items, most of which are almost identical to an already existent item just with some flashing lights put on them.

[Hambunctious]

It's good for EA, but not all that great for most customers. They don't even bother to nickel, and dime you to death. They jump straight into 5, and 20 dollar you too death.

[Sangrar]

to the OP, here are some counters to your aguement.

 

First of all, SWTOR is not the first and only game to have a cash shop like that. Bioware, EAWARE, whatever, is still a business, and the cartel market is what has helped keep the game afloat by bringing in lots of revenue. Its unfair to call them greedy for wanting to make money off the game while at the same time avoiding the whole pay to win thing. Profit from the cartel market means that the game is going to stay open, and is good for the game in general. Many people yell how we don't get much real content just cartel stuff, but there are separate teams at Bioware, some working on Cartel yes, but others working on actual content, its just, which is faster to make, a new piece of armor or speeder, or an entire flashpoint or Operation?

 

Cartel coins, I know you said you don't care that you "don't have to buy them" but still, I just have to say it, there is just no other way I can say it, you don't have to buy them. As it is I myself, a loyal subscriber since the days of early access, have never spent a single dime of cartel coins, I just get my 525 a month to live off. Yeah sometimes I get stuff once in a while, a pack here and there, got to take advantage right? (even got a cartel skiff in the first Vice Commandant pack I opened was happiest day of my smugglers life) but still, I never felt "forced" to buy anything.

 

The Cathar delays were not caused by the cartel market, they just had to smooth out all of the bugs prior to release, naturally. And 600 cartel coins, its less than a lot of the stuff, and at very least subscribers every month get 500 coins without having to buy anything extra, if you had some left over from the month before and just waited til the end of the month, you can afford it easily, its how I did it.

 

 

Anyway my point is, the cartel market is not a bad idea, it has helped bring in a lot of profit to keep supporting this game, and you cannot blame a business for trying to make profit. This is not the only game to do this, and its important to remember that, again, the cartel market is NOT necessary to win anything and, while it is pushed forward as an option, ultimately cartel coins are not needed to play, they are just a cool way to get stuff like packs or speeders or a fancy armor shell. I never spent money on them myself I only get the ones from my subscription every month. I can see why people might be frustrated but either way most of the cartel market items are sold on the gtn so its not really that hard to get hold of the items. Only now did I realize how old that post was lol but still you people get the point.

[AshlaBoga]

I don't even know what they sell on the Cartel Market these days. I absolutely do not care about it. My granted CC piles up and remains untouched. I only bought some legacy perks for my ship with them many months ago. There is nothing on the CM that I need, therefore in my very humble opinion, the CM is neither good nor bad. It just is.

 

I use CC for my Character/Legacy perks and that's about it.

 

All the CM stuff is ugly ugly ugly.

[OddballEasyEight]

I use CC for my Character/Legacy perks and that's about it.

 

All the CM stuff is ugly ugly ugly.

 

That makes me sad

Because that means you think every single one of my characters look ugly since they all have some cartel stuff on them to some degree.

[AlexDougherty]

I like it. It has cosmetic gear and items. Some of them I buy with my monthly allotment of coins. Some I buy from the GTN.

 

I think as long as the items stay to the cosmetic side then it will do fine.

 

^^This, apart from the crystals nothing is really important (and the unlocks for non-subs), and since the crystals can be unlocked for legacy via the collections, it's not a biggy (artificers disagree I know). The rest is fluff, fun Fluff, good looking Fluff, but still fluff.

[LT_CRANE]

For example, some sort of beacon that allowed you to teleport directly to your ship, on like a cool down.

 

They have a "Priority: Personal Transport" unlock in the legacy tab that you can get that from.

[Grayseven]

Online markets, when done right, are good for both players and the game developer. When done poorly, they are a detriment to players and still pretty good for the developer...

 

An online market should never be the primary access for goods in a game. It shouldn't even be close and unfortunately the SWTOR CM is beyond a doubt the primary access for goods in this game.

 

For example, the character customization kiosk. This should have been a credit sink instead of a money sink. The Cartel Market should have only been involved in adding unlocks to the kiosk and for every CC bought unlock added a credit unlock should have also been added. Instead, the entire process involves real money transactions.

 

New races should never be a CC item. Races are some of the most basic things in a game. Instead, race change should be a CC transaction while new races are added free to subs.

 

The dye system, as with character customization, should have never been made a CC transaction. You shouldn't have to gamble to get the customization you want and crafters shouldn't keep getting shafted by being given the "bad" colors to craft while the gambling boxes have all the desired colors.

 

My biggest problem with the CM, however, is that all of the desirable custom armor sets are CM and the non-CM stuff just looks awful (for the most part). It is easily apparent that most of the art teams time is being spent on cash market items and the earned or looted stuff gets very little time (or the art dept. C-team is doing it). The incentive to earn gear is lessened when that gear looks like garbage.

 

For every new mount earned through reputation and purchase, dozens of new mounts come through the CM only. This imbalance makes spending time grinding for a mount foolish, and crafting mounts is right out.

 

The CM in this game has gone too far. Way too far. So much focus is placed on the CM that the rest of the game suffers. I'm also tired of hearing how the CM "saved SWTOR". If a game is done right, it doesn't need saving and a game that needs an out of control cash market to survive probably shouldn't be saved in the first place.

 

There has to be a balance between a cash market and the in-game earned/crafted market.

[ghoul_drool]

Online markets, when done right, are good for both players and the game developer. When done poorly, they are a detriment to players and still pretty good for the developer...

 

An online market should never be the primary access for goods in a game. It shouldn't even be close and unfortunately the SWTOR CM is beyond a doubt the primary access for goods in this game.

 

No, the CM is all vanity. Define 'goods'. If your definition of that is 'stuff I want' , then the CM did well.

For example, the character customization kiosk. This should have been a credit sink instead of a money sink. The Cartel Market should have only been involved in adding unlocks to the kiosk and for every CC bought unlock added a credit unlock should have also been added. Instead, the entire process involves real money transactions.

 

I agree with you here. I fully expect that the cc requirement for subs will be lifted in the future though.

 

New races should never be a CC item. Races are some of the most basic things in a game. Instead, race change should be a CC transaction while new races are added free to subs.

 

Would you have preferred the ROTHC expansion had included the Cathar race unlock but was $ 5 more expensive? Because that's what would have happened. Added races are never just free.

 

The dye system, as with character customization, should have never been made a CC transaction. You shouldn't have to gamble to get the customization you want and crafters shouldn't keep getting shafted by being given the "bad" colors to craft while the gambling boxes have all the desired colors.

 

"Special Snowflake syndrome' requires some dyes be more rare than others. The dye I find myself using the most, by the way, is red/black and that one IS crafted - and thus is always in supply. Yes, random chance boxes can be an annoyance, but the most popular ones are direct sale now.

 

My biggest problem with the CM, however, is that all of the desirable custom armor sets are CM and the non-CM stuff just looks awful (for the most part). It is easily apparent that most of the art teams time is being spent on cash market items and the earned or looted stuff gets very little time (or the art dept. C-team is doing it). The incentive to earn gear is lessened when that gear looks like garbage.

 

nooh, desireable is what you make of it. Every pack that comes out contains one to three sets that will always sell and a LOT that just doesn't. Remember all the Alderaan houses from shipment two? I'll bet everyone was wearing them, right? It's just not true what you're saying, and the whole 'it's easily apparant that...' bit annoys me, because you have zero proof to back that claim up. Don't make it, then. There are some great looking sets that are earned through reputation vendors and the Hellfire helmet for Bounty Hunters is STILL the best looking helmet in the game.

 

For every new mount earned through reputation and purchase, dozens of new mounts come through the CM only. This imbalance makes spending time grinding for a mount foolish, and crafting mounts is right out.

 

Again, I spent weeks grinding Czerka for the Czerka Executive. How many people hunted Tauntaun domestication data? By the way, more mounts is more choice, and without the CM you would never had the ammount of choice that we do now..

 

My replies in italics!

[Mowermanx]

Online markets, when done right, are good for both players and the game developer. When done poorly, they are a detriment to players and still pretty good for the developer...

 

An online market should never be the primary access for goods in a game. It shouldn't even be close and unfortunately the SWTOR CM is beyond a doubt the primary access for goods in this game.

 

For example, the character customization kiosk. This should have been a credit sink instead of a money sink. The Cartel Market should have only been involved in adding unlocks to the kiosk and for every CC bought unlock added a credit unlock should have also been added. Instead, the entire process involves real money transactions.

 

New races should never be a CC item. Races are some of the most basic things in a game. Instead, race change should be a CC transaction while new races are added free to subs.

 

The dye system, as with character customization, should have never been made a CC transaction. You shouldn't have to gamble to get the customization you want and crafters shouldn't keep getting shafted by being given the "bad" colors to craft while the gambling boxes have all the desired colors.

 

My biggest problem with the CM, however, is that all of the desirable custom armor sets are CM and the non-CM stuff just looks awful (for the most part). It is easily apparent that most of the art teams time is being spent on cash market items and the earned or looted stuff gets very little time (or the art dept. C-team is doing it). The incentive to earn gear is lessened when that gear looks like garbage.

 

For every new mount earned through reputation and purchase, dozens of new mounts come through the CM only. This imbalance makes spending time grinding for a mount foolish, and crafting mounts is right out.

 

The CM in this game has gone too far. Way too far. So much focus is placed on the CM that the rest of the game suffers. I'm also tired of hearing how the CM "saved SWTOR". If a game is done right, it doesn't need saving and a game that needs an out of control cash market to survive probably shouldn't be saved in the first place.

 

There has to be a balance between a cash market and the in-game earned/crafted market.

 

Im of a similar mind as Grayseven, though a little different.

I wouldnt mind the CM as much if they gave us more ways to get different gear, the taun taun is a perfect example of how its done right, you can go to hoth and use the lures, buy it with credits in a number of ways, buy it directly with CC's, or get it as a reward for finishing a story mode ops, all these options to get a taun taun are fantastic and shows they are capable of implementing a great system.

As for the dyes, Ive said before, I have no problems paying for dyes, whatever BW would like to charge, but the system in place has got to be the most contrived garbage Ive ever seen. I dont think it would be even remotely possible to come up with a worse, non user friendly system.

Seriously, how hard would it of been to have a vendor, much the the current customization vendor, with 2 palettes, one for primary and one for secondary, and a preview window, then just select and preview which 1 or 2 you like, and click purchase.

[Jahl]

Online markets, when done right, are good for both players and the game developer. When done poorly, they are a detriment to players and still pretty good for the developer...

 

An online market should never be the primary access for goods in a game. It shouldn't even be close and unfortunately the SWTOR CM is beyond a doubt the primary access for goods in this game.

 

For example, the character customization kiosk. This should have been a credit sink instead of a money sink. The Cartel Market should have only been involved in adding unlocks to the kiosk and for every CC bought unlock added a credit unlock should have also been added. Instead, the entire process involves real money transactions.

 

New races should never be a CC item. Races are some of the most basic things in a game. Instead, race change should be a CC transaction while new races are added free to subs.

 

The dye system, as with character customization, should have never been made a CC transaction. You shouldn't have to gamble to get the customization you want and crafters shouldn't keep getting shafted by being given the "bad" colors to craft while the gambling boxes have all the desired colors.

 

My biggest problem with the CM, however, is that all of the desirable custom armor sets are CM and the non-CM stuff just looks awful (for the most part). It is easily apparent that most of the art teams time is being spent on cash market items and the earned or looted stuff gets very little time (or the art dept. C-team is doing it). The incentive to earn gear is lessened when that gear looks like garbage.

 

For every new mount earned through reputation and purchase, dozens of new mounts come through the CM only. This imbalance makes spending time grinding for a mount foolish, and crafting mounts is right out.

 

The CM in this game has gone too far. Way too far. So much focus is placed on the CM that the rest of the game suffers. I'm also tired of hearing how the CM "saved SWTOR". If a game is done right, it doesn't need saving and a game that needs an out of control cash market to survive probably shouldn't be saved in the first place.

 

There has to be a balance between a cash market and the in-game earned/crafted market.

 

^^^^Amen to that.

[AshlaBoga]

That makes me sad

Because that means you think every single one of my characters look ugly since they all have some cartel stuff on them to some degree.

 

No, no, no.

 

I don't think you're ugly Oddball, just that your wardrobe could use some work.

And I do like the CM crystals (Mint Green, Hot Orange, Blood "Red").