The Cartel Market - a good or bad thing?

[TUXs]

Incidentally, no one cries out for Gw2's termination, despite its now dangerously low income.

 

Why should any of us care what happens to GW2?

[GalacticKegger]

snip ...

 

TROLLS NOT WELCOME

 

... snip.

As soon as I saw that I skipped the diatribe and decided to just comment on the thread title.

 

I personally believe the Cartel Market is a good thing because it makes the game money.

 

For the F2P and Preferred accounts, it's removal would have an effect because all games that have F2P elements need cash shops to support them. Limitations in content access that come with not paying a monthly subscription fee can be overcome via CM purchases. Without the CM cash shop, the 1.7 million F2P and Preferred players would not be playing.

 

No free to play game will ever be completely free anyway because no business is stupid enough to pour months, maybe even years of time and money into something that has no way for them to make their money back. People who truly believe that F2P games should be free without strings have never had to work for anything imho.

 

For subscribers, other than the lack of vanity items, XP buffs or GSF requisition conversion buffs (none of which are necessities) the CM's removal would have no effect on their game play or their access to content. The CM is not a P2W system, so that too is a good thing.

 

The Cartel Market is there for people who don't mind spending a little extra real life cash for character customization or faster leveling. No biggie.

Edited January 3, 2014 by GalacticKegger

[TUXs]

I can only surmise that either

 

1) SaltZ is a Blizz agent.

 

2) Plain outright masochist.

 

3) Instant gratification-bloated ego American average person. ( Racist, maybe, but any chance I get to make fun of 'Murica is a good one.)

These insults are uncalled for. If this is what you surmise from someone having a differing opinion, perhaps it's YOU who has a problem.

[SaltZ]

I can only surmise that either

 

1) SaltZ is a Blizz agent.

 

2) Plain outright masochist.

 

3) Instant gratification-bloated ego American average person. ( Racist, maybe, but any chance I get to make fun of 'Murica is a good one.)

 

Game is not dying.

 

CM is a tool. Makes money, good for EA, bad for you, doesn't matter **** to most of us.

 

Move on. Thread lock please, dear moderators.

 

Or your working for EAware

[TUXs]

As soon as I saw that I skipped the diatribe and decided to just comment on the thread title.

 

I personally believe the Cartel Market is a good thing because it makes the game money.

 

For the F2P and Preferred accounts, it's removal would have an effect because all games that have F2P elements need cash shops to support them. Limitations in content access that come with not paying a monthly subscription fee can be overcome via CM purchases. Without the CM cash shop, the 1.7 million F2P and Preferred players would not be playing.

 

No free to play game will ever be completely free anyway because no business is stupid enough to pour months, maybe even years of time and money into something that has no way for them to make their money back. People who truly believe that F2P games should be free without strings have never had to work for anything imho.

 

For subscribers, other than the lack of vanity items, XP buffs or GSF requisition conversion buffs (none of which are necessities) the CM's removal would have no effect on their game play or their access to content. The CM is not a P2W system, so that too is a good thing.

 

The Cartel Market is there for people who don't mind spending a little extra real life cash for character customization or faster leveling. No biggie.

 

I largely agree with everything you wrote...my only area of contention is suggesting that the CM has no effect on a subscribers game. I truly believe that many (not all) of the CM items would have found their way into the game via playing the game as loot drops, quest rewards or whatever, had it not been for the CM.

 

I actually think Bioware has done a decent job at still introducing new "stuff", but I DO believe that the "stuff" is slowed by the CM.

[ScarletBlaze]

Way to completely ignore the point I was making.

 

What I said was unless EAware produce something to compete, they will find it very hard to hold onto players. MMO's are a self destructive environment, if populations decrease, people notice this and are quick to jump ship. I never said "THE WORLD IS ENDING!!!"

 

Last estimates we have for TOR pop is around 500k, That is a very small fragile amount of players to try and survive an onslaught of MMO's from all angles and platforms. Lets say they loose 15% of their population (75,000), that could be enough to say stop production on new raid content or new pvp content.

 

Remember lack of content = number 1 reason people leave MMO's.

 

Lets say they lost 30% (150,000), that could be more then enough to stop all but cartel market content and even closure of the game.

 

We have no idea of what the actual breadline limit is for this game, but if we are getting this amount of content with 500k players, I would argue that their breadline limit is not that far away.

 

This is not 100% accurate. Some people do not leave games just because others have. My guild and the founding members have been here since launch and not one of them has left. We have added some new ones since then but for the ones that started with this game and guild they are still here. We don't jump around. We are enjoying playing the game.

[SaltZ]

Rude? How about doing a Google search or two to find the information for yourself?[/color][/font]

 

I don't need to google search something that i'm not trying to prove. You don't enter a discussion to prove the OP wrong with evidence and say "well its out there, go look" you provide the evidence to encourage the discussion.

Edited January 3, 2014 by SaltZ

[GalacticKegger]

I largely agree with everything you wrote...my only area of contention is suggesting that the CM has no effect on a subscribers game. I truly believe that many (not all) of the CM items would have found their way into the game via playing the game as loot drops, quest rewards or whatever, had it not been for the CM.

 

I actually think Bioware has done a decent job at still introducing new "stuff", but I DO believe that the "stuff" is slowed by the CM.

I agree, and would like to add that there should be comparable "sibling" items to those in the CM that can be worked for in-game imho. If a player is truly desirous of grinding for 3 months solid to obtain something that would cost them $5 or $10 in the Cartel Shop, then I feel they should have that option available to them. Otherwise the system is quite fair. Edited January 3, 2014 by GalacticKegger

[DarkSaberMaster]

I could not agree with you more, I really don't like the Cartel market and am astounded by the ridiculously high prices they put on things like legacy perks, etc and can't believe the lack of new content subscribers get as opposed to Cartel Items, most of which are almost identical to an already existent item just with some flashing lights put on them.

 

Necrophelia at it's finest.

[TUXs]

I agree, and would like to add that there should be comparable "sibling" items to those in the CM that can be worked for in-game imho. If a player is truly desirous of grinding for 3 months solid to obtain something that would cost them $5 or $10 in the Cartel Shop, then I feel they should have that option available to them. Otherwise the system is quite fair.

 

Agreed

[Archellion]

Last estimates we have for TOR pop is around 500k, That is a very small fragile amount.

 

It is a testament to the phenomenon of World of Warcraft that a half million subscribers is considered "a very small fragile amount."

 

Before WoW, 500k was the pinnacle of success for an MMO - even EQ, at its peak, could only muster 450k-550k. WoW has proven to be a fluke. Those guys at Blizzard discovered the alchemical formula to turn bits of data into gold, and whatever secret methods and ingredients they used have yet to be discovered by anyone else. SWTOR seemed destined to overtake World of Warcraft, and certainly had the best shot to do so, out of all the Western AAA MMOs, but it fell short.

 

Maybe, for Blizzard, it was just a matter of timing. The market had yet to be saturated with MMOs and they put their excellent work out at a time when it could draw people away from inferior products. Like the gaming equivalent of a prehistoric world, WoW was a meteoric extinction event for the dinosaurs of an earlier age. Everything that came after had to be more evolved and sophisticated just to survive, but WoW, by virtue of being first-to-be-best, took its place at the top of the food chain, and though it has become enfeebled in its dotage, it is still the top.

 

However, after a decade of WoW, it has become clear that using Blizzard's juggernaut as a standard of success is impractical. It'll take another fluke, another MMO meteor, to ever again see subscriber numbers in the tens of millions.

[GalacticKegger]

It is a testament to the phenomenon of World of Warcraft that a half million subscribers is considered "a very small fragile amount."

 

Before WoW, 500k was the pinnacle of success for an MMO - even EQ, at its peak, could only muster 450k-550k. WoW has proven to be a fluke. Those guys at Blizzard discovered the alchemical formula to turn bits of data into gold, and whatever secret methods and ingredients they used have yet to be discovered by anyone else. SWTOR seemed destined to overtake World of Warcraft, and certainly had the best shot to do so, out of all the Western AAA MMOs, but it fell short.

 

Maybe, for Blizzard, it was just a matter of timing. The market had yet to be saturated with MMOs and they put their excellent work out at a time when it could draw people away from inferior products. Like the gaming equivalent of a prehistoric world, WoW was a meteoric extinction event for the dinosaurs of an earlier age. Everything that came after had to be more evolved and sophisticated just to survive, but WoW, by virtue of being first-to-be-best, took its place at the top of the food chain, and though it has become enfeebled in its dotage, it is still the top.

 

However, after a decade of WoW, it has become clear that using Blizzard's juggernaut as a standard of success is impractical. It'll take another fluke, another MMO meteor, to ever again see subscriber numbers in the tens of millions.

Bingo.

[RandomXChance]

So based on the 350k active concurrent users and and the 500k to be nicely profitable, considering this is the only information we can use to go off, they are already below that amount?

 

 

 

If your going to be rude, please just leave. You are not contributing anything and i fail to see where i have been rude to warrant such an attitude.

 

You are erroneously conflating two different numbers. "concurrent usres" and "subscriptions" are two separate numbers.

 

Both from wikipedia:

Concurrent users:

In computer science, the number of concurrent users for a resource in a location, with the location being a computing network or a single computer, refers to the total number of people using the resource within predefined period of time. The resource can, for example, be a computer program, a file, or the computer as a whole

 

Subscriptions:

The subscription business model is a business model where a customer must pay a subscription price to have access to the product/service. The model was pioneered by magazines and newspapers, but is now used by many businesses and websites.

 

I have seen so many people quote that 350K numbers as subscriptions by mistake that I just wanted to point it out.

[RandomXChance]

As you are complaining about all the "cool" looking stuff is only in the CM, just remember back to before the CM. I dreaded logging into my Merc and Sorc because the the end game gear was so god awful ugly and there were very few other choices. Edited January 3, 2014 by RandomXChance

[GalacticKegger]

As you are complaining about all the "cool" looking stuff is only in the CM, just remember back to before the CM. I dreaded logging into my Merc and Sorc because the the end game game was so god awful ugly and there were very few other choices.

Looking like the exhaust end of a turkey wasn't appealing?

[ikinai]

As you are complaining about all the "cool" looking stuff is only in the CM, just remember back to before the CM. I dreaded logging into my Merc and Sorc because the the end game game was so god awful ugly and there were very few other choices.

 

And remember when your class could only wear clothes designed for that class?

 

Yeah, thank goodness there was at least one smart person who got rid of that sillyness.

[SaltZ]

It is a testament to the phenomenon of World of Warcraft that a half million subscribers is considered "a very small fragile amount."

 

Before WoW, 500k was the pinnacle of success for an MMO - even EQ, at its peak, could only muster 450k-550k. WoW has proven to be a fluke. Those guys at Blizzard discovered the alchemical formula to turn bits of data into gold, and whatever secret methods and ingredients they used have yet to be discovered by anyone else. SWTOR seemed destined to overtake World of Warcraft, and certainly had the best shot to do so, out of all the Western AAA MMOs, but it fell short.

 

Maybe, for Blizzard, it was just a matter of timing. The market had yet to be saturated with MMOs and they put their excellent work out at a time when it could draw people away from inferior products. Like the gaming equivalent of a prehistoric world, WoW was a meteoric extinction event for the dinosaurs of an earlier age. Everything that came after had to be more evolved and sophisticated just to survive, but WoW, by virtue of being first-to-be-best, took its place at the top of the food chain, and though it has become enfeebled in its dotage, it is still the top.

 

However, after a decade of WoW, it has become clear that using Blizzard's juggernaut as a standard of success is impractical. It'll take another fluke, another MMO meteor, to ever again see subscriber numbers in the tens of millions.

 

Everyone says it, but only Blizzard can beat WoW. Blizzard and the community all agree WoW came along at the right time, offered the right content for that time and provide exactly what the consumer base wanted. As such it exploded and became the game it is today.

 

SWTOR had the biggest shot out of any MMO ever to take it head on, but it was entered the market at a time of flux, people where bored with the WoW experience, but required the content and polish that WoW offered. They where after change and SWTOR offered more of the same.

 

I think the next biggest hit will be a crowd source funded MMO, because that will be a direct show of demand for what consumers want. Which is why partly Star Citizen is so interesting to watch.

[SaltZ]

You are erroneously conflating two different numbers. "concurrent usres" and "subscriptions" are two separate numbers.

 

Both from wikipedia:

Concurrent users:

In computer science, the number of concurrent users for a resource in a location, with the location being a computing network or a single computer, refers to the total number of people using the resource within predefined period of time. The resource can, for example, be a computer program, a file, or the computer as a whole

 

Subscriptions:

The subscription business model is a business model where a customer must pay a subscription price to have access to the product/service. The model was pioneered by magazines and newspapers, but is now used by many businesses and websites.

 

I have seen so many people quote that 350K numbers as subscriptions by mistake that I just wanted to point it out.

 

I never said the 350k was subs, i said the 350k concurrent users and the breadline of 500k supported my estimate of 500k subs ATM. As SWTOR is still going atm, which means they are above the bread line and the last reasonable estimate was 350k subs.

[Archellion]

Everyone says it, but only Blizzard can beat WoW.

 

I don't know if even Blizzard can, right now. They seem to have strayed far afield from the things that made WoW so good compared to everything else on the market. Blizzard, in my opinion, will very likely end up being a victim of its own success and never be able to recreate it (especially since much of the team that created it in the first place has left for other companies.)

 

As for Star Citizen, I'm very interested in its development. I think it'll either be the greatest game to date or one of the biggest flops ever. The game promises so much, but so have others (e.g. Horizons, Fallen Earth) and it runs extreme risk of death by feature creep.

[RandomXChance]

I never said the 350k was subs, i said the 350k concurrent users and the breadline of 500k supported my estimate of 500k subs ATM. As SWTOR is still going atm, which means they are above the bread line and the last reasonable estimate was 350k subs.

 

Again, the 350K and 500K are talking about two different metrics for stating it to be somewhat successful. The last several investor statements have stated at about 500K, so not sure where the 350K subscriptions is coming from.

 

http://www.polygon.com/2013/5/7/4309866/star-wars-the-old-republic-revenue-doubled-free-to-play

 

In any case, the number of subscriptions is no longer the best metric for determining the success of an MMO. The FTP/CM did save this game from oblivion, but it certainly will never be the game it should/could have been. Ah well.

[clericz]

I just have to add that I felt at the beta, launch, and still do to this day that swtor IS the game of the future. For all it's bugs... which will be ironed out someday, it will eventually have a very impressive and dominant stance in the mmo world.

 

I give it sometime in 2015 that it really takes off, when the current powerhouse computer is the norm, then people will be cranking the graphics up to max on their $500 emachines and falling in love with this game. It also gives more than a year to iron out the remaining hiccups with the graphics options, it blows me away that you need to use something like nVidiaInspector with some finely tuned custom settings to really see the game as it's meant to be. <btw if you're not using it... you need to check it out, it's mind blowing how much better the game can look and still be 100% silky smooth fps>

 

Bioware has proven that they can overcome adversity and continue to keep the game fun, new content gets released, they're obviously making money from the game and its only going to get better.

[Bugattiboy]

You can never go wrong with free. You can never go right with micro-transactions.

[DarthTHC]

You can never go wrong with free. You can never go right with micro-transactions.

 

Unless, of course, you are a for-profit business rather than a charity. Then it's exactly the opposite of what you wrote.

[Floredon]

I think it's a good thing but doesn't go far enough. I would like some way to sell cartel coins and get credits on the GTN, something like RIFT"s REX implementation. Secondly, it would be nice to have certain gear items (a tier behind the best) for sale at high CC values, so players with many CCs can get that once upgrade we're missing. I think both of these would lead to more revenue for the game...

[RandomXChance]

You can never go wrong with free. You can never go right with micro-transactions.

 

I am sure that will be the title of the next quarterly report to the investors.