ETA on Advanced Class change?

[Ratajack]

I have 16 alts... you know nothing about me, be careful about throwing those stones...

 

I have 3 troopers, 2 are Commandos, 1 is a Vanguard... I can't stand playing the Vanguard, I'd like to turn it into another Commando.

 

I assure you beyond any shadow of a doubt that my getting a third Commando will in no way harm your game experience, and I'm FAR from lazy... What I have no interest in doing is leveling a 4th Trooper when I already have one, so that alt just sits there doing nothing...

 

Did you acknowledge and confirm that you knew the choice of vanguard was permanent and that you were certain that vanguard was the choice you wanted to make when you chose vanguard for that character? I would bet that you did, since the game requires you to confirm that.

 

Now here you are asking that BW change the game and allow you to change that vanguard into a commando.

 

As I said, I am not the one who wants BW to change the game.

[Vhaegrant]

We still cannot change our class and we have heard NOTHING since that very ambiguous statement from well over a year and a half ago. Given these two facts, I'm guessing that those against class changes outnumber those who want to change their class, or at least BW believes they do. In the end, that is all that matters. BW is, after all, the one who makes the final decision. Thankfully, so far they have decided not to allow class changes.

 

It's not a Class change that's being asked for it's an Advanced Class change.

[Vhaegrant]

Yep, I'll be happy to pay $10 for each AC change with a 30 day cool down timer. I only really want to use it once per toon.

 

This is the point of most interest to me.

What is the optimum cost point that gets the most use out of an AC swap feature.

 

The abuse of AC swapping seems to be limited as Operation lockouts are on a character and not the class they are playing. You can still only do one run per week, no matter which Advanced Class you happen to choose. You can no longer swap Spec in the middle of a WZ so I doubt you'd be able to do that with a full on AC swap. So I can't see the need for a cool down on the feature at all.

 

I would like to see it limited to being applied at a specific location. Either at the original Specialisation swap vendors, or allowing a player to purchase a Terminal for their ship and/or Stronghold.

Edited July 5, 2014 by Vhaegrant

[Ratajack]

It's not a Class change that's being asked for it's an Advanced Class change.

 

Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better about asking for a class change.

 

As I have said many times, I will continue to accept the devs stance on this as indicated by the previously posted quotes, which are the last word from the devs on AC as it relates to class.

[Ratajack]

This is the point of most interest to me.

What is the optimum cost point that gets the most use out of an AC swap feature.

 

The abuse of AC swapping seems to be limited as Operation lockouts are on a character and not the class they are playing. You can still only do one run per week, no matter which Advanced Class you happen to choose. You can no longer swap Spec in the middle of a WZ so I doubt you'd be able to do that with a full on AC swap. So I can't see the need for a cool down on the feature at all.

 

I would like to see it limited to being applied at a specific location. Either at the original Specialisation swap vendors, or allowing a player to purchase a Terminal for their ship and/or Stronghold.

 

IMO, the best option is NOT to allow class changes and avoid opening any cans of worms.

 

IF they allow class changes, and it is a big IF, tying it to a specific location will just bring the "lazy, entitled, have to have it now and for as little effort and cost as possible" crowd to the forums crying that it takes too long to go to a specific location, and they NEED to be able to change their class from anywhere.

 

I have posted in this thread what I feel is the best compromise to allowing class changes while still addressing many of the concerns voiced by those against class changes.

[Heat-Wave]

Did you acknowledge and confirm that you knew the choice of vanguard was permanent and that you were certain that vanguard was the choice you wanted to make when you chose vanguard for that character? I would bet that you did, since the game requires you to confirm that.

 

Now here you are asking that BW change the game and allow you to change that vanguard into a commando.

 

As I said, I am not the one who wants BW to change the game.

 

Oh boy you need to go outside and get out more. This is a game, not real life. That whole, "permanent" thing is just a RP story thing that doesn't make real world sense anyway, people change careers in real life you know.

 

Games are supposed to be fun, you just want to be the grinch in the room who breaks the toy so no one can play with it.

[Vhaegrant]

Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better about asking for a class change.

I would, but as I'm not asking for a Class change, I'm asking for the consideration of an Advanced Class swap feature to be implemented, I won't have to

 

As I have said many times, I will continue to accept the devs stance on this as indicated by the previously posted quotes, which are the last word from the devs on AC as it relates to class.

The last word made, for the most part, by Devs that no longer work on SWTOR and from the pre-launch/ immediate post-launch period of the game. Here we are nearly three years later where many of the original design intentions have been altered.

 

As to what the current Devs consider to be Class, I take it from all the references from the holonet and character creation panel where they are pretty clear it is more than 'just' story. The fact that many seasoned players choose to play through without selecting an Advanced Class as a challenge shows the parent Class is viable, although I'm not sure you'd want them in your NiM Ops group

Edited July 22, 2014 by Vhaegrant

[Ratajack]

The last word made, for the most part, by Devs that no longer work on SWTOR and from the pre-launch/ immediate post-launch period of the game. Here we are nearly three years later where many of the original design intentions have been altered.

 

 

Thankfully, the original design intent that now single character could fill all three roles has NOT been changed. Thankfully, a player's choice of class (AC) being PERMANENT has NOT been changed.

 

Hopefully, it will stay that way.

[hadoken]

I honestly think if it were something they were going to do it would have been done by now (with the CM).

[sethdil]

AC changing is a horrible idea.

 

First this is unnecessary, most ACs have multiple roles. As a Jedi Knight I can DPS effectively enough with the proper gear and a little know how on my DPS rotation. I can Tank effectively with the proper gear and a little know how on my tanking rotation. My sage can DPS or heal. My trooper can Heal or DPS

 

Second this option is perplexing, give me just ONE VALID justification for changing your advance class. And please done use the "But I wanna do it all, I want my trooper to be able to tank, dps and heal" because I will just call you out as a n00b who cant play his/her class effectively.

 

Third in doing a advanced class swap diminishes the entire reason for advanced class. Why not just remove advanced class completely and allow players to choose any power from any tree and design their own advanced class.

[Savej]

Thankfully, the original design intent that now single character could fill all three roles has NOT been changed. Thankfully, a player's choice of class (AC) being PERMANENT has NOT been changed.

 

Hopefully, it will stay that way.

 

except the designers originally intended to allow ac swapping (you've seen the youtube) so what's your point? I think it's just that you're happy players have limited options with their characters. I know why BW likes that - they are gambling that players will spend time leveling alts (as opposed to doing endgame things with their guilds/friends on their 55s). Why do you care, tho?

[TUXs]

AC changing is a horrible idea.

 

First this is unnecessary, most ACs have multiple roles. As a Jedi Knight I can DPS effectively enough with the proper gear and a little know how on my DPS rotation. I can Tank effectively with the proper gear and a little know how on my tanking rotation. My sage can DPS or heal. My trooper can Heal or DPS

 

Second this option is perplexing, give me just ONE VALID justification for changing your advance class. And please done use the "But I wanna do it all, I want my trooper to be able to tank, dps and heal" because I will just call you out as a n00b who cant play his/her class effectively.

 

Third in doing a advanced class swap diminishes the entire reason for advanced class. Why not just remove advanced class completely and allow players to choose any power from any tree and design their own advanced class.

1) Many things are "unnecessary" - I see it as something some players may want to use, others, like yourself, won't. Similar to the design kiosk where I can change my hair color and bone structure (which were also permanent at one time)

 

2) To keep me playing (me is figurative, not literal). Breathing new life into a character role that may have become stale or boring to me. MMO's are long term investments of time - allowing people to freshen things up can only enhance retention. Also, an MMO is a fluid game...ever changing and ever altering. Allowing players the freedom to flow with design is a good feature, not negative.

 

3) Since every Class already shares an entire tree per AC, I would have no issue at all with this...however, I also see the potential for Bioware to sell AC change on the CM, making AC choices financially beneficial to them...so I'd expect AC's to stay.

 

Lemme ask you...what does it matter to you if I do my thing with a Commando or a Vanguard? How does MY choice of AC impact you at all? If you're against AC swap, are you also against alts? I mean, I'd have all the same disadvantages if I simply swapped characters vs. AC...right? Whether I log on to another toon, or swap my AC, the impact is exactly the same.

[Vhaegrant]

AC changing is a horrible idea.

An AC swap feature is an idea, the exact amount of 'horrible' is subjective and variable depending on how such a feature was to be implemented.

First this is unnecessary, most ACs have multiple roles. As a Jedi Knight I can DPS effectively enough with the proper gear and a little know how on my DPS rotation. I can Tank effectively with the proper gear and a little know how on my tanking rotation. My sage can DPS or heal. My trooper can Heal or DPS

The fact that the Advanced Classes each have three further specialisations that define the role weakens the argument for not allowing an AC swap feature, not strengthen it. Within the scope of raw mechanics, an AC is little more than an additional stage of specialisation, not a unique 'class'.

Second this option is perplexing, give me just ONE VALID justification for changing your advance class. And please done use the "But I wanna do it all, I want my trooper to be able to tank, dps and heal" because I will just call you out as a n00b who cant play his/her class effectively.

You have to understand that an AC swap doesn't allow you character to tank, dps and heal at the same time. You still have a segregation of core tanking/healing abilities.

1. Allowing an AC swap feature allows players to resurrect old characters they don't play anymore, maybe because having levelled the alternative AC on the other faction they find that playstyle suits them more (eg. levelling a Powertech and then a Commando and finding the Commando playstyle suits them far more)
   
2. Allowing a player to fill a gap within their guild without having to step back to level 1.
   
3. Allowing a player a little more control over their character. This is a more personal, role-playing aspect but I've always thought of my Bounty Hunter as a Bodyguard, not just a hired thug, having the ability to choose between a healer role OR a tanking role makes far more sense for him.
   
4. Allowing a player to experience the full rotation of an Advanced Class and how they play at endgame before making a choice of what they will stick with without having to go back to level 1.
   

Third in doing a advanced class swap diminishes the entire reason for advanced class. Why not just remove advanced class completely and allow players to choose any power from any tree and design their own advanced class.

It doesn't diminish it. If anything it enhances it.

You have to understand that the Advanced Class stage of specialisation primarily exists to make sure no single character can Tank, DPS and Heal at the SAME time. By locking the core tanking and healing abilities away from each other on the AC branch you accomplish this.

At the same time, you don't want to allow free form ability choice as it generally result in very specific 'cookie cutter' builds that over optimises synergy between abilities (and when I say that I mean 'Breaks' them )

While I'm not a fan of Class based systems that restricts the full range of abilities to a player it is a workable compromise that allows designers to segregate certain pools of abilities and design content around it (the dreaded Trinity of MMOs)

Edited July 22, 2014 by Vhaegrant

[Orizuru]

I think an AC change would be a cool feature for many players, but I think it would create a slew of new problems and complaints from a portion of the player-base.

 

Can you imagine the tears that will flow when a Jugg changes to a Mara without giving the change the proper consideration to realize that they will no longer be able to use any of their heavy armor sets that aren't adaptive armor? Even in the cases where they have full sets of adaptive armor there would be some who come to the forums and complain because they want to revert the AC change because they didn't think it through completely enough and no longer have the right gear or mods to support their new AC the way they wanted.

 

I just think it's a can of worms that should be opened very very carefully, if at all.

[sethdil]

1)

Lemme ask you...what does it matter to you if I do my thing with a Commando or a Vanguard? How does MY choice of AC impact you at all? If you're against AC swap, are you also against alts? I mean, I'd have all the same disadvantages if I simply swapped characters vs. AC...right? Whether I log on to another toon, or swap my AC, the impact is exactly the same.

 

Here in lay the problem in allowing you to reClass on the fly your commando can reClass to vanguard and thus could makes a pure melee class like the Jedi for ops less favorable since you have both range and melee attacks. I will not support any change that diminishes the role of one class over another unless the affected class is also rebalanced to minimize the impact on their enjoyment as well.

 

Your argument seems to be "I wanna do it all" to which I will say then level another character. Advanced classes was created as a method to diversity group dynamic it has worked since the game launched just fine. Groups are dependent on each member to preform a specific role.

 

I guess its the old school MMO skilled gameplay where each player needed the other to succeed vs the newer "I need a non specific class so I can play effectively" mentality. To each their own form of gameplay I guess so peace out!!

Edited July 22, 2014 by sethdil
revision

[Savej]

I think an AC change would be a cool feature for many players, but I think it would create a slew of new problems and complaints from a portion of the player-base.

 

Can you imagine the tears that will flow when a Jugg changes to a Mara without giving the change the proper consideration to realize that they will no longer be able to use any of their heavy armor sets that aren't adaptive armor? Even in the cases where they have full sets of adaptive armor there would be some who come to the forums and complain because they want to revert the AC change because they didn't think it through completely enough and no longer have the right gear or mods to support their new AC the way they wanted.

 

I just think it's a can of worms that should be opened very very carefully, if at all.

 

Much of the end-game gear is adaptive now (pvp gear is, at least). Most of the legacy sets are adaptive. All of the CM gear is. Social sets are very cheap for anyone. And no matter what you can swap mods with another shell. But you picked the one ac swap that has that issue - all others share the same armor type. Interestingly enough, the designers changed the armor type to heavy for guardians based player feedback during beta - it was originally going to be med. But anyways, the armor type is a non-issue: my dps guardian has to change more gear when he flips to tank spec than he would flipping to any sentinel spec. Heck, my guardians and sentinels already do share the same legacy sets when they first hit 55.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Savej

[Vhaegrant]

I think an AC change would be a cool feature for many players, but I think it would create a slew of new problems and complaints from a portion of the player-base.

 

Can you imagine the tears that will flow when a Jugg changes to a Mara without giving the change the proper consideration to realize that they will no longer be able to use any of their heavy armor sets that aren't adaptive armor? Even in the cases where they have full sets of adaptive armor there would be some who come to the forums and complain because they want to revert the AC change because they didn't think it through completely enough and no longer have the right gear or mods to support their new AC the way they wanted.

 

I just think it's a can of worms that should be opened very very carefully, if at all.

 

While I can see that as a valid concern it already exists to some extent when swapping between the Tank <-> DPS roles of certain Advanced Classes. While the armour requirement remains the same the abilities on it change enough that you need a second set anyway. Maybe this would be better fixed by asking for the much requested 'Appearance tab' option or, my preferred option making all armour sets 'Adaptive' and taking the class restrictions off crafted armour (one can but hope).

 

Personally I imagine a core reason AC swapping hasn't been implemented is the issue of ability training. When respecialising between the three trees you have a set number of training points to allocate, it is a fairly simple task to refund these.

However, with the abilities learnt from the AC tab of the Class trainer you have an associated credit cost and the need to remember what rank you have already purchased on the other AC (I doubt these would be insurmountable if the abilities are stored in a logical manner). While I haven't sat down and worked it out, I know that the cost of training keeps you poor while you level your first character (I only tend to see a reasonable return of credits once I'm in the mid to high 30s.). This becomes a moot point once you have a level 55 and can run dailies, 15-20mins returns about 90k from Ilum, about 2 million if you do a complete run through all the dailies. But, Free-2-play and preferred players can't transfer credits between characters. The only upside I could see that it would be a one time cost. On a Bounty Hunter for example, once you had purchased all the specific Powertech and Mercenary abilities you wouldn't have any further credit outlay on an AC swap until the next time the level cap is raised.

A pop up that warns of the credit cost to purchase the AC abilities up to maximum rank for current level would probably be a good idea any way

Edited July 22, 2014 by Vhaegrant

[Vhaegrant]

Here in lay the problem in allowing you to reClass on the fly your commando can reClass to vanguard and thus could makes a pure melee class like the Jedi for ops less favorable since you have both range and melee attacks. I will not support any change that diminishes the role of one class over another unless the affected class is also rebalanced to minimize the impact on their enjoyment as well.

 

Your argument seems to be "I wanna do it all" to which I will say then level another character. Advanced classes was created as a method to diversity group dynamic it has worked since the game launched just fine. Groups are dependent on each member to preform a specific role.

 

I guess its the old school MMO skilled gameplay where each player needed the other to succeed vs the newer "I need a non specific class so I can play effectively" mentality. To each their own form of gameplay I guess so peace out!!

Very few of the proponents for allowing an AC swap feature want it to be 'on the fly' or free. There may be some, but they haven't posted in some time

 

Personally, I think a CM consumable that costs in the region of 1,000 - 2,000 cc's would be acceptable to most.

I'd like to see its use restricted to the old Respec vendors on the home worlds and on fleet, as well as introducing a terminal for placement in your ship/ stronghold.

I'm not bothered about a cool down feature, as Op lockouts are based on the character anyway, and a one shot consumable that costs about £5-£10 in real money should give most players a little bit to ponder before randomly flip flopping between ACs.

 

Maybe, the devs could go as far to throw some of us altoholics a bone, and if you've levelled up both ACs to max level you can switch between them (still restricted to the vendor and terminal just at no additional cost).

[TUXs]

Here in lay the problem in allowing you to reClass on the fly your commando can reClass to vanguard and thus could makes a pure melee class like the Jedi for ops less favorable since you have both range and melee attacks. I will not support any change that diminishes the role of one class over another unless the affected class is also rebalanced to minimize the impact on their enjoyment as well.

 

Your argument seems to be "I wanna do it all" to which I will say then level another character. Advanced classes was created as a method to diversity group dynamic it has worked since the game launched just fine. Groups are dependent on each member to preform a specific role.

 

I guess its the old school MMO skilled gameplay where each player needed the other to succeed vs the newer "I need a non specific class so I can play effectively" mentality. To each their own form of gameplay I guess so peace out!!

I have no desire to "do it all" - I simply don't see any reason someone shouldn't be allowed to swap ACs IF they wanted to.

 

My argument is - there's NO impact on me at all if anyone wants to swap ACs. NONE. If that's what they want to do, no matter their reason, I support it. What AC you pick is no business of mine, nor is mine any business of yours. Whether I swap my AC or switch toons or roll another toon, it does NOT impact you at all. Your issue against this is purely nosy and controlling.

 

There is no interdependency as it is - it's actually WORSE because of the sheer number of alts people have these days. Old school would be minimizing the toons people have, not encouraging them to have 22 freaking alts that can do everything themselves.

[Ratajack]

except the designers originally intended to allow ac swapping (you've seen the youtube) so what's your point? I think it's just that you're happy players have limited options with their characters. I know why BW likes that - they are gambling that players will spend time leveling alts (as opposed to doing endgame things with their guilds/friends on their 55s). Why do you care, tho?

 

Unless I am mistaken, the original intent was NOT to allow AC changes, then they dabbled with the idea until ultimately deciding against it, at least partially due to the overwhelming number of players against allowing class changes.

 

You chose your class (AC). You were told that decision was PERMANENT. You acknowledged that you understood it was PERMANENT. You acknowledged that you were choosing the class (AC) that you wanted to choose. Now, you want to "change your mind". At what point do you actually assume some responsibility and accept that some decisions have consequences.

[LordArtemis]

It lives lol

 

Well, it's been a long time now since the last official word on the matter, and that word was an opinion that we will see this eventually.

 

That was said a LONG time ago though.

 

I don't know if it will ever happen. I would prefer to see some stronger cues for ACs to make them feel more like a class then less, but if they do ever add this I will adapt.

[LordArtemis]

Unless I am mistaken, the original intent was NOT to allow AC changes, then they dabbled with the idea until ultimately deciding against it, at least partially due to the overwhelming number of players against allowing class changes.

 

You chose your class (AC). You were told that decision was PERMANENT. You acknowledged that you understood it was PERMANENT. You acknowledged that you were choosing the class (AC) that you wanted to choose. Now, you want to "change your mind". At what point do you actually assume some responsibility and accept that some decisions have consequences.

 

The original intent was to allow it. Then they changed their minds just before release, stood against the idea for a long time, then relented, indicating it would "likely happen" when they commented about race and faction change.

 

Since then we have heard nothing, so one could assume it will not happen and they likely noticed that folks were not keen on the idea.

[Vhaegrant]

At what point do you actually assume some responsibility and accept that some decisions have consequences.

In real life, every day.

Outside of that, as SWTOR is a game I play for enjoyment, and I'd hope the majority of other players do as well, I'd like to think that after sinking 72+ hours into a character I could get a little leeway with the set of abilities they have if I offer up a little cash incentive and it doesn't unbalance the underlying mechanics.

[Ratajack]

1) Many things are "unnecessary" - I see it as something some players may want to use, others, like yourself, won't. Similar to the design kiosk where I can change my hair color and bone structure (which were also permanent at one time)

 

Appearance changes are COSMETIC only and do not affect fundamental game play mechanics. A class change is not cosmetic.

 

2) To keep me playing (me is figurative, not literal). Breathing new life into a character role that may have become stale or boring to me. MMO's are long term investments of time - allowing people to freshen things up can only enhance retention. Also, an MMO is a fluid game...ever changing and ever altering. Allowing players the freedom to flow with design is a good feature, not negative.

 

This is why they allow multiple characters. No one is restricted to a single character.

 

3) Since every Class already shares an entire tree per AC, I would have no issue at all with this...however, I also see the potential for Bioware to sell AC change on the CM, making AC choices financially beneficial to them...so I'd expect AC's to stay.

 

I'm not aware of any two classes (AC's) that share a single spec tree. Powertech and mercenary may each have a spec tree with the same name, but they are NOT the same tree. Check it for yourself. The same goes for the other classes (AC's).

 

Lemme ask you...what does it matter to you if I do my thing with a Commando or a Vanguard? How does MY choice of AC impact you at all? If you're against AC swap, are you also against alts? I mean, I'd have all the same disadvantages if I simply swapped characters vs. AC...right? Whether I log on to another toon, or swap my AC, the impact is exactly the same.

 

Is that the best argument you have? In essence, that sounds like you are saying "I have no real justification for asking for a class change, but how will my being able to change my class affect you? I don't think it will affect you, so I should be able to change my class."

 

It has already been said that you impact every player with whom you come into contact.

[TUXs]

At what point do you actually assume some responsibility and accept that some decisions have consequences.

OMG LOL! This is a freaking game jack...geezus man...calm down. I just wanna have fun, not make life altering choices. If swapping my AC allows me to have more "fun", big freaking deal.

 

Game...fun...enjoyment...entertainment...smile...laugh