Tank Assassins (and Shadows) are ruining PvP.

[CrazyOldMystic]

I am not sure this imbalance thing is one class only. Operatives, even sentinel like adv classes, and the shadow like classes are taking advantage of there stealth in warzones by allot. I have seen them stealth out whenever they start taking any kind of damage. In shadows and Assassins defense, I dont see that too much from them, more from the operative and the sentinel /marauder classes.

 

A interesting machanic in world of warcraft, if a rouge would try that at close range to a target, whoever they were attacking would be able to still see them. They would have to get at range first before completely disappearing. At least that's what it appeared to me in world of warcraft battlegrounds. Maybe swtor needs a mechanic like that, to encourage these players to fight more. Instead of disappearing near death, and acting like they accomplished anything at all.

 

On the flip side on my commando more then a few times ill break combat to find a spot somewhere to heal and get back into the fight. I don't get the luxury of just disappearing to do that.

[goulet]

all these posts about all tanks being the same in terms of stopping power are to put it politely inaccurate. Sin to no surprise takes the cake in pvp. A jugg tank isn't going to kill anything fast, or one v one for that matter, their defense means mostly squat in pvp, the damage is minimal and they actually have a rage penalty from defensive stance that no other tank class has in terms of their energy management.

 

Sins problem is they fulfill all 3 roles at the same time, in respectable proportions: healing/dps/tank. the healing/tanking work together to be subsequent enough to counteract a lot of damage, and their tanking isn't so much about being a huge damage sponge like the other specs. Throw a tank spec that has guaranteed crits on top of it you have a problem on your hands. You can spec to have shock be a guaranteed crit, cost nothing, and have the chance to do 45% additional damage.

[killerwookie]

Fixed it for you.

 

 

 

You mean to tell me that a Tank with defensive cooldowns and utilities can survive more damage than a Rogue and a Mage Archtype?

 

STOP THE PRESS - GAME BREAKING NEWS GUYS.

 

^ Sarcasm, incase you missed it.

 

Well, ur obviously so busy trying to defend ur class (tank sin) that u missed what i said about expertise. My tank sin has a pitiful amount of expertise...meaning I hit softer andmitigate less player dmg then most ppl in the wz. Iam running around in centurion armour...even the recruit armour gives more expertise than I have and even with my 'tanking' skills should not be able to stand up as long as I do.

 

ur sarcasm was used to try and hide the fact that u were defending the class and spec as if it is completely balanced and fine, when pretty much everyone knows it isnt.

[shirayuki]

I don't think the OP was talking about DPS shadows/assassins. I think they're fairly balanced. Tanks aren't. My Assault Vanguard is pretty geared. Full BM with one Warhero piece. Two critcrafted items. A good tankassin will kill me before I can get 20% of their HP down. Stopping them from healing themselves is rough with the GCD how it is and only having two stuns. Stuns not working when they've got their force and tech immunity thing on, etc. I can't kite them. I can't beat them 99.9% of the time.

I laughed at this HD only heals 12% over the entire FL and guess what a tank sin with 18k hp only heals themself 2160 please tell me what class cant deal thatmuch damage in 3 sec. most tank sin in full dps gear will only have about 16k-17k hp so HD heals 1920-2040.

[Jatne]

all these posts about all tanks being the same in terms of stopping power are to put it politely inaccurate. Sin to no surprise takes the cake in pvp. A jugg tank isn't going to kill anything fast, or one v one for that matter, their defense means mostly squat in pvp, the damage is minimal and they actually have a rage penalty from defensive stance that no other tank class has in terms of their energy management.

 

Sins problem is they fulfill all 3 roles at the same time, in respectable proportions: healing/dps/tank. the healing/tanking work together to be subsequent enough to counteract a lot of damage, and their tanking isn't so much about being a huge damage sponge like the other specs. Throw a tank spec that has guaranteed crits on top of it you have a problem on your hands. You can spec to have shock be a guaranteed crit, cost nothing, and have the chance to do 45% additional damage.

 

Are you actually joking me? This coming from the class that happily does MONGOSMASH for upwards of 8k AoE damage?

 

Assassins DO NOT heal. They have a minute heal on damage and a +10% total HP heal which is on an outrageous cooldown... so on 17k HP they get (excluding Trauma) a 1.7k heal. Average PvP crit is over well over 2k.

 

'Energize' is the ONLY feat in Darkness (Tank) spec that affects shock directly. It finishes the cooldown and does not change the cost at all. You are confused with the Deception feats tied to Voltaic Slash.

 

Taking 'Chain Shock' from the Madness tree gives a 45% chance to gain +50% (not +45%) of normal Shock damage as extra bonus damage.

 

None of these feats chance the Force cost of Shock. Please show me otherwise.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Jatne

[killerwookie]

I am not sure this imbalance thing is one class only. Operatives, even sentinel like adv classes, and the shadow like classes are taking advantage of there stealth in warzones by allot. I have seen them stealth out whenever they start taking any kind of damage. In shadows and Assassins defense, I dont see that too much from them, more from the operative and the sentinel /marauder classes.

 

Now...ask urself why......? The 'in-combat stealth' skill has, and always will be an 'Oh-Sh*t skill'. Its used when ur in a situation where its all about to go very wrong. So...why aren't the tank sins using it as much as the other classes?? Coz they dont get to that 'Oh-sh*t' moment. They just take everything ur dishing at them and lol.

 

A interesting machanic in world of warcraft, if a rouge would try that at close range to a target, whoever they were attacking would be able to still see them. They would have to get at range first before completely disappearing. At least that's what it appeared to me in world of warcraft battlegrounds. Maybe swtor needs a mechanic like that, to encourage these players to fight more. Instead of disappearing near death, and acting like they accomplished anything at all..

 

U think this doesnt happen in swtor. The stealth mechanic got changed in 1.2. If they are in front of u, u will still see them. Also, all it takes is an aoe and they will get pulled back out of stealth.

 

On the flip side on my commando more then a few times ill break combat to find a spot somewhere to heal and get back into the fight. I don't get the luxury of just disappearing to do that.

 

No, u just get the luxury of more hp to start with and more armour rating to start with....and grav rounds.....

[Totgug]

Among the current FotMs, Tank Assassins (and their mirrors) are undoubtedly the grossest imbalance.

 

Yet unlike Marauders with their insane damage or Powertechs with their crazy burst, Tank Assassins actually break the game to an extent.

 

Why may you ask is a tank Assassin game-breaking?

 

1. They beat any class in a 1v1, most of the time it's not even close.

 

2. That means you have to commit at least 2 players towards taking a node guarded by a tank Assassin. But even with 2 players the Assassin will survive long enough for reinforcements to arrive before a cap. 3 Players are enough to ensure a rapid kill, if the Assassin doesn't opt to vanish in order to prolong the fight.

 

3. They also have Stealth, meaning more often than not, there'll be an extra Assassin hiding in the shadows which would also need to be killed.

 

There''s just no feasible counter to that class aside from committing half your team towards finishing them off. If the enemy team has multiple tank Assassins....well good luck with anything.

 

4. They make the best ball carriers against good players (bad players get charged by Juggers), able to speed through fire while taking negligible damage, their Stealth allows them to wait anywhere and their survivability ensures that by the time they get near the enemy goal-line, their resolve bar will be full, making them immune to any CC.

 

5. Should for some reason a group of Assassins tanks ever find itself on the defensive, no problem. Just pull that pesky ball carrier into the nearest fire and lol as you grab the ball for a quick counter.

 

6. Mentioning Guard and all the other crap they have just seems unnecessary at this point.

 

While (most) other classes have to make choices, Tank Assassins have it all.

 

/rant

 

Funny. I have been playing this class since day 1. guess what. i am always one of the bottom dps. Why? Not because i need to L2P, but because i spec Tank and wear Tank gear.

 

Pre 1.2 i would get solo que'd 75k dps usually max. premade 75-120k. (remind you i dont play typical game style. i dont 1v1, i piss healers off, knock people out of range, etc....

 

Post 1.2 i get 100k regularly. hit 150 for first time. but thats due to expertise up for dps and tanking down. without a dedicated healer or 2 i can barely survive guarding anyone anymore. im full BM, doesnt help. without dedicated healer, i die in 3-4 shots.

 

The part you are talking about is people that tank spec and use dps gear. that spec i think needs fixed. i have mentioned this a million times to guildies, on these forums, and on ts..... make the tank tree only able to use tank gear.

[DarthKhaos]

You guys are funny. The only thing Assassins/Shadow Tanks got over other tanks is stealth. You're complaining that a class that has stealth is using it. One guy said it best. ALWAYS assume someone is stealthed.

 

Assassins/Shadows have to spec tank to get force pull. They get force speed that can be stunned while in use negating the effect. Ranged abilities are more short ranged than mid range and have cooldowns.

 

ALL Powertechs/Vanguards Tanks or not get grapple. Powertech tanks can talent to get Jet Charge that not only instantaneously closes the distance but also immobilizes the target. They can atk from full range even if the target gets some distance from them.

 

ALL Warriors/Knights regardless of spec or advance class gets force leap that not only instantaneously closes the distance but also immobilizes the target. Since I haven't leveled a Tank for this class yet I am uncertain what else they have in terms of closing the distance towards an enemy.

 

You can't be upset that tanks got survivability or you'll be screwing with the whole concept of a tank (pvp and pve) in the game. It is extremely difficult for tanks to take down a healer due to the fact we just do not have the burst of a dps spec. A friend gave me some advice when I speced tank for PvP. He said do NOT fight another tank. The fight will go on so long that others will end up showing up to help him.

 

PvP is about picking your battles. No matter your advance class you should always be careful of any fight you get into.

[Valant]

What happens when the other side has two Shadows/Assassins guarding a node that YOU need? Ignoring targets is a convenient forum argument that makes little sense in real practical gameplay.

 

You won't be ignoring any player who's guarding a node, door, or point that you need to take.

[AidenPryde]

Are you actually joking me? This coming from the class that happily does MONGOSMASH for upwards of 8k AoE damage?

 

Assassins DO NOT heal. They have a minute heal on damage and a +10% total HP heal which is on an outrageous cooldown... so on 17k HP they get (excluding Trauma) a 1.7k heal. Average PvP crit is over well over 2k.

 

'Energize' is the ONLY feat in Darkness (Tank) spec that affects shock directly. It finishes the cooldown and does not change the cost at all. You are confused with the Deception feats tied to Voltaic Slash.

 

Taking 'Chain Shock' from the Madness tree gives a 45% chance to gain +50% (not +45%) of normal Shock damage as extra bonus damage.

 

None of these feats chance the Force cost of Shock. Please show me otherwise.

 

Honestly, you are a noob if you are getting smashed by Juggernauts and Maras. It is so easy to spot them and knock them away or CC them to prevent from using it and it is good game.

[Darth_Gao_Gao]

of course they'll beat you 1v1. the trick is to not get in such a situation. if you get solo'd by a sin then you were derping off the doors in voidstar or something. i have no sympathy for you.

 

christ, you people.

[AngryBuddhist]

Ive got a sith assassin alt and i have to say.. this is completely true. I get more dps than a dps specced player. Its grossly OP

 

No point in anyone playing a pure DPS class in PvP when the hybrids are a ton better. Pure DPS are simply gimmick classes.

[Neamhan]

Why do shadow/ sin tanks insist they are fine? In the Shdoaw forums there was a wonderful post by one of your own how his DPS as a tank is dir4ectly comparable to the DPS trees with tank mitigation. So at that point it tells me when you can admit it amongst yourselves then you know it is an issue and not L2P for others.

 

Tanks should just generate threat and do ZERO damage. I have no issue withthem surviviing for a long tiime but at the same time they should in no way be able to kill another player. It is all the window lickers that can not pvp properly that hide behind gimic specs to try and win things. Look at WoW and all the Blood Dks. that would be comparabel to what is going on here.......

 

And now we see the truth. In the minds of the nerfherders, any damage a tank does is too much damage. They literally want tanks to be punching bags, unable to kill anything or even be able to defend themselves. Free kills on the hoof.

[cycao]

And now we see the truth. In the minds of the nerfherders, any damage a tank does is too much damage. They literally want tanks to be punching bags, unable to kill anything or even be able to defend themselves. Free kills on the hoof.

 

I actually laughed pretty hard on this once because I find it so true ( I know crazy).

[MrHotter]

You guys are funny. The only thing Assassins/Shadow Tanks got over other tanks is stealth. You're complaining that a class that has stealth is using it. One guy said it best. ALWAYS assume someone is stealthed.

 

Assassins/Shadows have to spec tank to get force pull. They get force speed that can be stunned while in use negating the effect. Ranged abilities are more short ranged than mid range and have cooldowns.

 

ALL Powertechs/Vanguards Tanks or not get grapple. Powertech tanks can talent to get Jet Charge that not only instantaneously closes the distance but also immobilizes the target. They can atk from full range even if the target gets some distance from them.

 

ALL Warriors/Knights regardless of spec or advance class gets force leap that not only instantaneously closes the distance but also immobilizes the target. Since I haven't leveled a Tank for this class yet I am uncertain what else they have in terms of closing the distance towards an enemy.

 

You can't be upset that tanks got survivability or you'll be screwing with the whole concept of a tank (pvp and pve) in the game. It is extremely difficult for tanks to take down a healer due to the fact we just do not have the burst of a dps spec. A friend gave me some advice when I speced tank for PvP. He said do NOT fight another tank. The fight will go on so long that others will end up showing up to help him.

 

PvP is about picking your battles. No matter your advance class you should always be careful of any fight you get into.

 

You forgot to mention that assassin/shadow tanks also have some nice DPS in their tanking tree that keep them on par with other DPS. Going deep into the tank tree gives you more DPS rather than more protection. I don't think people would be very happy if the healers had some nice DPS by specing to the top of their trees.

 

The only good part about that is that I realize my BH tank is not going to be killing any healers so I have to concentrate on helping my teamates. The downside of that is there are times when I have no teamates worth helping and end up being just as useless.

 

I intend to play all classes/AC eventually, but my Powertec had to chose between tank/functionality and DPS. My shadow did not need to make that choice. My guardian is only 27, so my disapointment with the tanking/survivability part of that class may change as I get more levels.

[Neamhan]

As a Vengeance Juggernaut I know for a fact something is wrong when a Tankassin can pull more DPS on me than I can on him.

 

Both the PT tank and Assassin tank specs are overpowered compared to Immortal tank (which is why it boggles my mind that any self respecting Juggernaut specs as Immortal). Especially the Assassin tank spec. It is disgusting really.

 

The big issue is not solely their survivability or their offensive capability. It is the fact that they have a tank's damage mitigation and do as much DPS as I, as a DPS spec can pull.

 

Even when I pull the endure pain + WZ medpack trick they still manage to beat me more often than not. I'm not some recruit geared Jugg either. I have 4 pieces of Augmented gear with the purple Might augment, the rest BM gear, with 2 pieces of the Augment gear having War Hero mods in it (so I maintain the set bonus).

 

People compare the Marauder immunity to the Force Shroud ability that Tankassins get. They really cannot be compared as the Marauder ability takes 50% of your health away and does not remove any hostile effects, and does not make your immune to CCs.

 

Force Shroud on the other hand removes all hostile effects, makes you immune to Tech and Force, and immune to all CCs.

 

You can also stealth as a tank which is an extremely powerful ability.

 

So they can do more DPS than you, in a DPS spec eh?

 

Most DPS specs are doing between 1200 - 1300 DPS. Most tank specs are doing ~600 DPS, maybe 700 - 800 in DPS gear.

 

Vengeance Juggernaut: 1297 DPS - Source

 

Kinetic Shadow: ~600 DPS, ~700 DPS in damage gear - Source

 

If you think those numbers are incorrect, even though they're supported by people running parses on actual combat logs, then post your own actual numbers. The exaggerations and misinformation needs to stop.

[kickinhead]

Among the current FotMs, Tank Assassins (and their mirrors) are undoubtedly the grossest imbalance.

 

Yet unlike Marauders with their insane damage or Powertechs with their crazy burst, Tank Assassins actually break the game to an extent.

 

Why may you ask is a tank Assassin game-breaking?

 

1. They beat any class in a 1v1, most of the time it's not even close.

 

2. That means you have to commit at least 2 players towards taking a node guarded by a tank Assassin. But even with 2 players the Assassin will survive long enough for reinforcements to arrive before a cap. 3 Players are enough to ensure a rapid kill, if the Assassin doesn't opt to vanish in order to prolong the fight.

 

3. They also have Stealth, meaning more often than not, there'll be an extra Assassin hiding in the shadows which would also need to be killed.

 

There''s just no feasible counter to that class aside from committing half your team towards finishing them off. If the enemy team has multiple tank Assassins....well good luck with anything.

 

4. They make the best ball carriers against good players (bad players get charged by Juggers), able to speed through fire while taking negligible damage, their Stealth allows them to wait anywhere and their survivability ensures that by the time they get near the enemy goal-line, their resolve bar will be full, making them immune to any CC.

 

5. Should for some reason a group of Assassins tanks ever find itself on the defensive, no problem. Just pull that pesky ball carrier into the nearest fire and lol as you grab the ball for a quick counter.

 

6. Mentioning Guard and all the other crap they have just seems unnecessary at this point.

 

While (most) other classes have to make choices, Tank Assassins have it all.

 

/rant

 

1) No they don't: A Sent beats everything in a 1v1 and they also have a hard time against Guardians and are unable to kill any healing-class in a 1v1.

 

2) Yeah, also, 1 Healer alone will be able to guard it long enough, 1 Sent/mara or anything with stealth or a tanky Vanguard or Guardian....

 

3) Stealth is a decent CD, but in no way more OP than the CD's of Sent. If you're unable to count players on the field and get stealth-ganked all the time, learn how to count.

 

4) Guardians are soooo much better as ballcarriers, it's ridiculous you'd even come up with the idea that sins are the best. They are probably not even second-best, cuz Vang's with Leap are better as well.

 

5) It's a good cooldown in huttball, but it's on par with the enemy/friendly pulls by Vanguards and Sages, which don't require investing skillpoints into. What's not on par, are the Leaps by Sent and Guardians, which have less than half cooldown, but allow you to travel the same distance as a pull, just with half cooldown and sometimes 2 Leaps on a single char, which is very tanky as well.

 

6) They are a good class and they might even be too good right now, but if you look at shadows and say they are the most outrageous thing in PvP right now, with Sage-Healers and DD's being completely UP, Sents being OP in every Situation and Guardians/Juggs completely dominating Huttball, I really wonder why you fixate on this minor nuisance that much...

 

There needs to be a nerf to the Sin-Tank, but a larger Cooldown on Slow time and making Telethrow interruptable even with harnessed shadow will pretty much do the trick...

[CapuchinSeven]

but they should destroy you ESP with cooldown's available, stop crying.

 

I'm not siding either way in this, but er wut? Why? He's a Guardian, why should they destroy a Guardian? They are both tanks.

 

Dumb argument is dumb.

[Neamhan]

There needs to be a nerf to the Sin-Tank, but a larger Cooldown on Slow time and making Telethrow interruptable even with harnessed shadow will pretty much do the trick...

 

Why? DPS of a Shadow tank is already literally half that of a damage specced AC. See my previous post for the links to parses. Shadows/Assassins are perfectly fine exactly the way they are, just like Bioware said at PAX.

[TheMunny]

So they can do more DPS than you, in a DPS spec eh?

 

Most DPS specs are doing between 1200 - 1300 DPS. Most tank specs are doing ~600 DPS, maybe 700 - 800 in DPS gear.

 

Vengeance Juggernaut: 1297 DPS - Source

 

Kinetic Shadow: ~600 DPS, ~700 DPS in damage gear - Source

 

If you think those numbers are incorrect, even though they're supported by people running parses on actual combat logs, then post your own actual numbers. The exaggerations and misinformation needs to stop.

 

/Thread

[Zekeiele]

Not going to get into the OP or not debate just a comment on Sin/Shadow tanks holding Nodes solo...I don't really get why this is such a shocker to some people..Of course your going to get smacked..HARD he/she has been sitting there waiting with all cooldowns relics adrenals ready to go...you expect something different to happen in that situation?

[BrotardNosef]

The other day I watched a tank shadow in my guild hold off 5+ ppl on a node in alderaan for the duration of time it took me to go from the underground to the point, all while never dropping below 25% life. Today that same shadow fought a 2v1 with 5% life again for the time it took me to run from the underground to the node in CW where I promptly healed him back to full and he rolled face on the defenders.

 

He might not kill you the fastest, but you have a slim to none chance of killing him.

[Darth-Malkaevian]

Shadow's are squishy, even with CD'S up, L2Counteract them, and stop being bad.

there more or less a 1v1 class (yes they have the ability too cc etc etc...) but they should destroy you ESP with cooldown's available, stop crying.

 

Assasin tank's on the other hand, yes they need there dmg lower quite a bit.

Oh and while there at it, nerf mara/sents, i hear they need it now .

 

Maras/sents do not need a nurf its the Exp on the level 50 gear that makes them OP, While leveling them they are very balanced and Not Op. Nerf them and below level 50 they will become useless and impossible to level solo.

[Teabaker]

Maras/sents do not need a nurf its the Exp on the level 50 gear that makes them OP, While leveling them they are very balanced and Not Op. Nerf them and below level 50 they will become useless and impossible to level solo.

 

.. Huh? I did regulary 1v2 in Warzones with my marauder. I once won a 1v4. I killed a guarded Gunslinger in a 1v4. I could easily tank half the team for 20 seconds while my team caps and/or destroys them

 

Marauder is anything but "balanced" from 1-49.

 

Also leveling is easy as hell. I leveled as Annihilation and I easily did heroic 2+ missions.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Teabaker

[Monterone]

I play a tankassin. A tankassin in DPS gear. I love it and I agree we are OP.

 

I wish they would get done nerfing it so that I can enjoy the class a bit more. By nerfing I mean reducing the damage Darkness can put out and clearly define the roles -- a dps tree will dps, a tank tree will tank with very little access to dps.

 

Then I can go back to deception and enjoy the class like it's meant to be enjoyed. As it is right now there is no reason to go deception over darkness. Trust me, I've played deception/infiltration since last summer and there is no reason to currently go deception over darkness.

 

At the same time, I think deception could use a slight survivability boost. Perhaps the 30% armor from T1 talent to become passive Assassin Training.