darthtoph Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) I used to demand a combat log but realised TOR is too carebear to need/want a combat log. Sure, it will help some minmaxing by confirming some theories but for the most part we really don't need no combat log. I know I don't. Even Hello Kitty Online is less carebear than TOR. Sad but true. Edited February 23, 2012 by darthtoph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rollcageuk Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 That is cause ToT nightmare modes are easiest raid content in MMOs hands down. Without DPS meters, they can never put any serious fights into the game cause you cant divide goods and bads in anyway atm so content has to be this level that almost anyone can do it. Same goes for competetive PvP, there wont be any before meters are in the game cause you cant balance classes in any way without knowing how much dmg each ability exactly does or prevents. Oh dear. Another post made without actually considering all the facts. Firstly, BW will have their own logs and they will be using those logs to decide what needs to be balanced and what doesn't, so your second point is moot. And yes, the nightmare modes are too easy, so BW will beable to make them harder without having to implement logs. To use a simple example. At the moment during a boss fight a Sentinel will be doing 100dps and a sage will be doing 100hps. With meters and a properly worked out rotation you might beable to get that up to 120dps/hps so as a result you can increase the health and damage of your bosses by 20%. What happens is that you end up with a still easy boss, but one that you have to use the meters to beat. So, what do you do instead. You increase the next boss stats to 105dps etc and then you see how the players cope. If they can (without meters) still beat the boss then you are fine. It's a harder boss but still playable which is what we want. Whether you make the boss 120dps with meters, or 105 without them, you still get a difficult boss but (and this is the big but!) you have to learn by playing/wiping and playing some more how to get that extra 5% and you have the freedom to play as you want to rather than a raid boss giong on line, downloading a build and forcing everyone to copy it(which is exactly what happened in pandaville. option 1 = stronger bosses but with freedom and a learning curve...oh and fun option 2 = even stronger bosses with meters being mandatory, raid bosses forcing specs, and no fun(most people don't find maths exams fun!) or being forced into a spec or having leet players belittling them. You can make the game harder without meters! And to those that say this is the first MMO without meters, Blizzard never added meters to pandaville, it was a user generated addon. And even then they didn't come till MC had been out for at least 6 months. So the biggest MMO on the market never added meters! I'm sure it says on the box somewhere it's a "Game", might need to check if it says "Maths exam 101". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Scythe Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I'm asking politely. This is the #1 biggest issue with SWTOR right now... Can we get a word on why it is taking so long for this to be implemented when it is so crucial to everything in the game... You don't read Dev interviews or their blogs I take it? Personal form of recount is coming in the future. Psst the game plays well without it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corbanite Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Oh dear. Another post made without actually considering all the facts. Firstly, BW will have their own logs and they will be using those logs to decide what needs to be balanced and what doesn't, so your second point is moot. And yes, the nightmare modes are too easy, so BW will beable to make them harder without having to implement logs. To use a simple example. At the moment during a boss fight a Sentinel will be doing 100dps and a sage will be doing 100hps. With meters and a properly worked out rotation you might beable to get that up to 120dps/hps so as a result you can increase the health and damage of your bosses by 20%. What happens is that you end up with a still easy boss, but one that you have to use the meters to beat. So, what do you do instead. You increase the next boss stats to 105dps etc and then you see how the players cope. If they can (without meters) still beat the boss then you are fine. It's a harder boss but still playable which is what we want. Whether you make the boss 120dps with meters, or 105 without them, you still get a difficult boss but (and this is the big but!) you have to learn by playing/wiping and playing some more how to get that extra 5% and you have the freedom to play as you want to rather than a raid boss giong on line, downloading a build and forcing everyone to copy it(which is exactly what happened in pandaville. option 1 = stronger bosses but with freedom and a learning curve...oh and fun option 2 = even stronger bosses with meters being mandatory, raid bosses forcing specs, and no fun(most people don't find maths exams fun!) or being forced into a spec or having leet players belittling them. You can make the game harder without meters! And to those that say this is the first MMO without meters, Blizzard never added meters to pandaville, it was a user generated addon. And even then they didn't come till MC had been out for at least 6 months. So the biggest MMO on the market never added meters! I'm sure it says on the box somewhere it's a "Game", might need to check if it says "Maths exam 101". This. WHy do you want to raid? Do you enjoy raiding with real life friends or do you want the best gear and so play with the best people to get the gear? Look if meters etc come into the game then my enjoyment of the game will go down. I have no problem DPSing or tanking or anything and if meters come in I can assure you that it wont be me being kicked out of a group for underperforming. Content will be tailored around people maximising their DPS. Many people will have a choice of playing with their friends or progression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinkpants Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 My money's on that Bioware already has a combat log that runs in the background, but is not accessible by us and they are reviewing it to make tweaks here and there so when they do release it they aren't gonna get a sh*tstorm from the hardcore raiders and the number crunchers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FourTwent Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 It's funny. I believe that it should be implemented for exactly those reasons. If you want to raid, you should be forced into the optimal spec to do so. I am sorry but hybrid specs just won't cut it. This is really what it boils down to. If you dont want a combat log then you dont have to use it(when it gets added). If you dont want to raid with people who use them, you dont have to. Thinking you can join a an endgame PUG hardmode with your flavor build is wasting 15 other peoples time(or asking them to carry you through content). Dont be silly and think that you putting one point here or there, instead of where the cookie cutter spec tells you) probably isn't going to make or break your DPS numbers. But going out of the way to make your build flavor based instead of optimizing your DPS, heals, CC, mitigation, etc is not fair to the rest of the PUG you're trying to join. When you think about it, combat logs aren't really going to change anything. It will be a personal combat log, so no one else can see it. . .JUST like your build spec, no one else can see this right now. It's gonna end up being the same thing as it is now, if a particular guild doesn't feel you're carrying your own weight, they will not raid with you anymore. Combat logs aren't going to change anything in this regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telendria Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 This. WHy do you want to raid? Do you enjoy raiding with real life friends or do you want the best gear and so play with the best people to get the gear? Look if meters etc come into the game then my enjoyment of the game will go down. I have no problem DPSing or tanking or anything and if meters come in I can assure you that it wont be me being kicked out of a group for underperforming. Content will be tailored around people maximising their DPS. Many people will have a choice of playing with their friends or progression. And many people enjoy challenges, competitions and trying to be the best. Ever since UBRS and MC, me and my friends were competing all the time who could be the best dps and had good laugh when some of us came with the most ridiculous explanations why we sucked on this or that. Thats the way we play till now. You dont like minmaxing? no problem, there are more social oriented guilds with casual raiding or running HCs. Not to mention, even without ungame combatlog or dps meters, there is already this thing call simcraft http://www.simulationcraft.org/swtor/113/Sage_Sorcerer_113.html . If people want, they will find a way to minmax... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taroen Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Until the inevitable intrusion from all angles comes in, forcing those who don't care to care or otherwise be kicked to the curb due to comparative number crunching which may or may not be done with proper scientific methodology. Sure, some folks do it very, very well - others enjoy having a bottom-line number to be exclusionary. Either way, it still changes things for everyone. It changes how content is developed and how groups are made. It helps to change attitudes, and in some cases it brings out very good teachers, but it also can bring out very bad behaviors. So, all in all, it's not just something that's put in and then used by a part of the populace. It eventually becomes the all-consuming factor in grouping, development and even guild acceptance. I say this only because of other MMO experiences where I have seen it happen in the community. All in all, it's a good tool, but even the best of tools can be used poorly or improperly. I was trying to get both sides of the argument there, not sure I did. At any rate, that's a piece of my opinion. Yep... The old "ignorance is bliss" argument. Sorry, but that's crap. More information in the hands of players and guild leaders is a GOOD thing. Almost all of the bosses in this game have an enrage timer, and thus a dps requirement. If you can't, or won't, meet that requirement, then you're wasting the time of 15 other people and you should EXPECT to get "kicked to the curb". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobaFurz Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 There is only one reason why no combat log is available....classes are probably not balanced when it comes to dps . If we would have right now any combat log the forum would have been full of complains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corbanite Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) Yep... The old "ignorance is bliss" argument. Sorry, but that's crap. More information in the hands of players and guild leaders is a GOOD thing. Almost all of the bosses in this game have an enrage timer, and thus a dps requirement. If you can't, or won't, meet that requirement, then you're wasting the time of 15 other people and you should EXPECT to get "kicked to the curb". Depends on how it is interpreted. Many DPS AoE because it produces more DPS and gets them higher on the meters that way.. Why bother taking out the little piddly mobs first when you can stay on boss single target and maximise your DPS. Incoming damage is not your priority.. max DPS is your priority Why bother healing the damage that comes in why not just AoE blanket heal and get to the top of the healing meters.. The meters prove you are awesome and if someone died then it is someone else who is lower on the meters fault. To combat this another game just made everything AoE in one expansion.. tank aoe's simple 3 button rotation... DPS AoE simple 3 button rotation.. and Healers AoE simple 3 button rotation.. oh that sounds like a great game. *yawn* More information is a GOOD thing is not a universal truth. Edited February 23, 2012 by corbanite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterKayote Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I'm asking politely. This is the #1 biggest issue with SWTOR right now... Can we get a word on why it is taking so long for this to be implemented when it is so crucial to everything in the game... Yes youre absolutely right. The game is full of bugs and imbalances that are frustrating players to no end but the "#1 biggest issue" is a missing combat log that is already proven to be absolutely unnecessary to complete any of the currently available content. ........ /sigh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taroen Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Depends on how it is interpreted. Many DPS AoE because it produces more DPS and gets them higher on the meters that way.. Why bother taking out the little piddly mobs first when you can stay on boss single target and maximise your DPS. Incoming damage is not your priority.. max DPS is your priority Why bother healing the damage that comes in why not just AoE blanket heal and get to the top of the healing meters.. The meters prove you are awesome and if someone died then it is someone else who is lower on the meters fault. To combat this another game just made everything AoE in one expansion.. tank aoe's simple 3 button rotation... DPS AoE simple 3 button rotation.. and Healers AoE simple 3 button rotation.. oh that sounds like a great game. *yawn* More information is a GOOD thing is not a universal truth. Yes it is. Ignorance is never good. You want to go to extremes. Either no combat log at all, or they are the be-all end-all. But the truth is that any player who focuses on his own dps to the point where he ignores fight mechanics is just as bad a player as the one who is afraid to be exposed for their poor play. And any raid leader who can not recognize those two players is bad, too. Currently, we can easily see who is ignoring fight mechanics, but there is no way at all to tell who is dps'ing poorly. You have 2 tanks, 4 healers and 10 dps. If a boss enrages because your dps is too low, how do you correct that? You have no way of knowing who is underperforming, or why. Which of the 10 is it..? Why are they low..? Ignorance is NOT bliss. More information is ALWAYS a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frostvein Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 IIRC, they had a combat log in Beta but had to turn it off because it wasn't working properly/lagged players to hell. I also tend to believe they knew the game was incomplete from a balance perspective and didn't want to have to deal with players asking for balance adjustments when they have about 8 million other problems to deal with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hokonoso Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 This is by far NOT the most important issue. Are you actually saying that its more important than fixing PvP? Or adding content for 50s? I think not... you cant fix pvp without combatlog, you simply cant balance anything without comatlog, if you think something else is more important than by all means be delusional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corbanite Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Yes it is. Ignorance is never good. You want to go to extremes. Either no combat log at all, or they are the be-all end-all. But the truth is that any player who focuses on his own dps to the point where he ignores fight mechanics is just as bad a player as the one who is afraid to be exposed for their poor play. And any raid leader who can not recognize those two players is bad, too. Currently, we can easily see who is ignoring fight mechanics, but there is no way at all to tell who is dps'ing poorly. You have 2 tanks, 4 healers and 10 dps. If a boss enrages because your dps is too low, how do you correct that? You have no way of knowing who is underperforming, or why. Which of the 10 is it..? Why are they low..? Ignorance is NOT bliss. More information is ALWAYS a good thing. Yes.. like bomb making stuff.. everyone should know how to build a nuclear weapon.. God knows why some people think it's a bad idea. You should go protest.. More information is NOT always a good thing whether you like it or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volksworgen Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 LOL The combat log will be used to ruin this game like it helped do to WoW. People will be forced into specs for raiding and then measured and then excluded without cookie cutter builds. I hope they don't ever add it. Are you even reading what you type? Combat logs killed WoW? Are you *********** serious? What part of trying to find out what hit you and for how much is a game killer? There are too many jokers here posting nonsense these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drewser Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 you cant fix pvp without combatlog, you simply cant balance anything without comatlog, if you think something else is more important than by all means be delusional. The Devs have a combat log. They balance the game. Players don't need one for the purpose of "game balance". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taroen Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Yes.. like bomb making stuff.. everyone should know how to build a nuclear weapon.. God knows why some people think it's a bad idea. You should go protest.. More information is NOT always a good thing whether you like it or not. How incredibly absurd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corbanite Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) How incredibly absurd. not really the point is more information is not always a good thing.. It all depends on how people use it.. Too many people are ******s. Edited February 23, 2012 by corbanite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taroen Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) The Devs have a combat log. They balance the game. Players don't need one for the purpose of "game balance". HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.....!!!!! Oh wait... You're serious..? Edited February 23, 2012 by Taroen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drewser Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.....!!!!! Oh wait... You're serious..? Not sure why you find the facts so funny. Sure players can QQ once there are combat logs, but in the end the Devs decide what they will change or keep the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tygranir Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.....!!!!! Oh wait... You're serious..? This is a very constructive post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodia Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Combat logs would be nice so that you can see what killed you if you're unsure. Many times when I was leveling I got hit pretty hard, but didn't get to see what hit me, and there's no combat log so scratch that. Also would be nice for PvP if you die fast to see what killed you so fast so you are better prepared in the future to deal with it/counter it. They are also good for many reasons, not just hardcore raiding, either. I think it is pretty fail that this game launched without one. I cannot see how this was done, gross incompetence or just the lack of resources? Who knows, but they need to add one, and ASAP, too. Oh, more UI customization and a LFG tool would be nice, too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azzras Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Combat logs would be nice so that you can see what killed you if you're unsure. Many times when I was leveling I got hit pretty hard, but didn't get to see what hit me, and there's no combat log so scratch that. Also would be nice for PvP if you die fast to see what killed you so fast so you are better prepared in the future to deal with it/counter it. They are also good for many reasons, not just hardcore raiding, either. I think it is pretty fail that this game launched without one. I cannot see how this was done, gross incompetence or just the lack of resources? Who knows, but they need to add one, and ASAP, too. Oh, more UI customization and a LFG tool would be nice, too! Everything you asked for is coming. Probably patch 1.2, but don't quote me on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mufutiz Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) LOL The combat log will be used to ruin this game like it helped do to WoW. People will be forced into specs for raiding and then measured and then excluded without cookie cutter builds. I hope they don't ever add it. People who don't share the mindset to utilize their chosen class to the utmost potential should find a group of players with a similar mindset then. combat logs are an ESSENTIAL basic tool in ALL MMOS EVER, not just WoW (since EQ1, a game more than a decade old by now) The rest of the raiders, the few that try to be the biggest asset to the group they can possibly be, will be able to play together then. I don't see the issue with it, really. Birds of a feather flock together. ambitious raiders <--------> I am OK with being carried Edited February 23, 2012 by mufutiz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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