Forsbacka Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 If the utopian world you descibe ever appears, I'll happily live there. However, in my experince of MMO raiding and combat logs, it does not tun into a how can we help him scenario, it instead turns into a blame game and kick them out. Logs make the game less fun, you get forced into a build, into a rotation and into doing things in a way you might not want to, and as someone who has gone from serious player to casual, the casual way where I choose how to play is much more fun. And I can't just not have them if I don't want, as it will eventually become mandatory, as it did in pandaville. Casual is term more like time consumed on the game. It doesnt mean that people with less time dont want to optimize their specs and rotations for best performance or doesnt want other people in the team do the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frostvein Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) Thats not true, HC Ragnaros in Cata is most brutal fight in MMORPG history. HC lich king when it mattered, HC firefighter, yogg with 0 guardians etc comes to mind as fights that no casual or bad players completed. From earier times, 4hm, C'thun, Muru prenerf were quite challenging also. None of these fights cant be done in ToR on any timeframe without combat logs. Rretty much this. Further, even with things such as macros, DBM, threat meters, dot timers, whatever, HRag was still harder then anything ToR has to offer. First kill was 500 some wipes. I did a little over 300 myself, still didn't kill it. Top 500 world. Sigh. I don't think the people trying to clear this game's entire endgame content wiped 500 times in total, and that is including the leveling process. Edited February 23, 2012 by Frostvein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vydor_HC Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I'm perfectly fine without it, I'm actually enjoying the game as is. There are lots of great conversations about classes as people work out how best to play them without the min/max minutia. Makes for a better game imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forsbacka Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Put him against a mob with 10k hp. If he downs it in 1 second he's good. If he downs it in 10, he's not. Right. Thats obviousl same thing as keeping steady dps on encounters that requires moving, situational awarness and max dps for minutes. I raided a lot including some hardest fights possible and when we breezed NM modes in an evening on this game, i had no idea how other people were hanging on DPS wise, neither did anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truga Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) Right. Thats obviousl same thing as keeping steady dps on encounters that requires moving, situational awarness and max dps for minutes. So put him up against a boss with 1mil hp. If he takes 2 minutes, he's ok, if he takes 10, he isn't. Not all bosses have enrage timers. I raided a lot including some hardest fights possible and when we breezed NM modes in an evening on this game, i had no idea how other people were hanging on DPS wise, neither did anyone else.And yet, you finished everything. And now you want to farm mode it in easier mode by making the social factor a non-issue. Edited February 23, 2012 by Truga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rollcageuk Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Casual is term more like time consumed on the game. It doesnt mean that people with less time dont want to optimize their specs and rotations for best performance or doesnt want other people in the team do the same. What you are describing is not a casual player, but a serious one. You take your dps so seriously, you need a log to tell you how to play, that is definetly not casual. Casual isn't a time spent, what it means is it's their game so they should be able to play it in a way they choose, not some arbitrary meter tells them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menisong Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 So put him up against a boss with 1mil hp. If he takes 2 minutes, he's ok, if he takes 10, he isn't. Not all bosses have enrage timers. Or better idea, put in a combat log like every other mmo, like the devs said they would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truga Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Or better idea, put in a combat log like every other mmo, like the devs said they would. I still don't understand how WoW and Rift are apparently every MMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forsbacka Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 So put him up against a boss with 1mil hp. If he takes 2 minutes, he's ok, if he takes 10, he isn't. Not all bosses have enrage timers. So, we go against boss, with tanks and healers, and check everyones invidual DPS by letting one dude at a time dps the boss to see its DPS? Sounds modern adn easy and fun. I bet you use landline instead of mobile phone too cause its more work and people using cell phones are just lazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menisong Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Casual isn't a time spent, what it means is it's their game so they should be able to play it in a way they choose, not some arbitrary meter tells them. Exactly, however like EVER game, there should be a more competetive side that requires more effort and attention to detail. Where players no longer play how they choose because they like it, but because they can play it competetively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forsbacka Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I still don't understand how WoW and Rift are apparently every MMO. Most MMOs has combat logs, not just WoW and Rift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menisong Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) I still don't understand how WoW and Rift are apparently every MMO. Most mmo games i have played have had combat logs. Edited February 23, 2012 by Menisong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truga Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 So, we go against boss, with tanks and healers, and check everyones invidual DPS by letting one dude at a time dps the boss to see its DPS? Sounds modern adn easy and fun. I bet you use landline instead of mobile phone too cause its more work and people using cell phones are just lazy. Hey, you want harder content! I'm just pointing out that everything will require even less effort with add-ons and combat logs and whatnot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rollcageuk Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Right. Thats obviousl same thing as keeping steady dps on encounters that requires moving, situational awarness and max dps for minutes. I raided a lot including some hardest fights possible and when we breezed NM modes in an evening on this game, i had no idea how other people were hanging on DPS wise, neither did anyone else. So, you downed the Boss, yeah? Then job done. You want information that is not in any way appropriate to the situation you were in. You have completed the encounter, everyone is happy, you get the loot. Yes, it's easier than you would like, and harder bosses are needed, but if they are harder to the point of needing logs, then all fun is removed from the encounter. you do remember when games used to be fun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crutchess Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 this is where i think a lot of people are getting scared. You do not necessarily have to replace those people. If you had combat logs you could look at their dmg and see what they are doing wrong and where they can improve. I don't know why everyone assumes MMOs are an elitest, cut-throat environment. Its about helping others and others helping you. You have the most control over the players you surround yourself with. ^^ This. In my experience this game has an incredible community of helpful and understanding people. I don't see that community crumbling overnight and devolving into a bunch of kids screaming "min 3k dps or no loot for you, n00b." I also don't think a combat log should be the highest priority on Bioware's list. From reading over the developer q&a forum posts is looks like same sex romance is the communities biggest concern (of course I'm generalizing, please don't flame me with "give me some hard numbers"), which for me, is of little to no concern. Further, the current end game raiding is not hard enough to reallly necessitate a combat log. Its a quality of life improvement, and a lot of people enjoy numbers. No one is going to be kicked from a normal raid for their dps numbers. Its just not hard enough to worry about that. However, I know that when I dps, it's fun to see how much damage I can pump out and measure that against my friends in my guild. It is also nice to be able to look back after a wipe and see what happened. For instance, we were working on HM Soa last raid and we kept having people die to lightning balls during the second phase. Everyone seemed to take different amounts of damage, varying from 4k to what seemed like 10k. It would have been nice to look back at a log and have a real number and see why. But again, its just a quality of life thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menisong Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) Hey, you want harder content! I'm just pointing out that everything will require even less effort with add-ons and combat logs and whatnot. You have clearly never participated in a competetive activity. Edited February 23, 2012 by Menisong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forsbacka Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 So, you downed the Boss, yeah? Then job done. You want information that is not in any way appropriate to the situation you were in. You have completed the encounter, everyone is happy, you get the loot. Yes, it's easier than you would like, and harder bosses are needed, but if they are harder to the point of needing logs, then all fun is removed from the encounter. you do remember when games used to be fun? Like said before, if they want nightmare modes to be easy for anyone, combat logs are not needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaelshi Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I'd be fine with one and fine without one. I understand why some people consider them useful. However - someone mentioned how you can tell who's good or bad in your group. This is why some people have issues with combat logs. Simply put - everyone does not have the individual capability of maxing out their toon(dps for the most easy comparison). They just do not have the dexterity or hand-eye-coordination. Perhaps they are not using or even aware of(in wow) the best ui mods for their class and do it in a more inefficient way. I understand the desire to be in a group that is at the absolute top in terms of the meters - but if you're in a group, and you are reasonably finishing content with people above who would be kicked if you had memeters - well you are not really being hurt by having someone who is not absolute maximizing their outputs and is it really a big deal if you'd be able to finish the run 3 minutes faster if you had higher dps? There is no doubt however that some people are just incapable of being part of dungeon groups - but if you have those people, you'll know without meters since you will probably be dying to the content or having an incredible amount of trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rollcageuk Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 You have clearly never participated in a competetive activity. You clearly have never had fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Put him against a mob with 10k hp. If he downs it in 1 second he's good. If he downs it in 10, he's not.no, that tells you how he's doing on that mob. It doesn't tell you anything about how he's doing on the boss in question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crutchess Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I'd be fine with one and fine without one. I understand the desire to be in a group that is at the absolute top in terms of the meters - but if you're in a group, and you are reasonably finishing content with people above who would be kicked if you had memeters - well you are not really being hurt by having someone who is not absolute maximizing their outputs and is it really a big deal if you'd be able to finish the run 3 minutes faster if you had higher dps? No one gets kicked when everything is working well in the group. I just don't understand this general idea that if your dps is on the low side you will automatically be removed. Its NOT easy to find replacements in the game. It takes time and effort. The only time people get removed is when you keep wiping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menisong Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote=Kaelshi;3051375. However - someone mentioned how you can tell who's good or bad in your group. This is why some people have issues with combat logs. Simply put - everyone does not have the individual capability of maxing out their toon(dps for the most easy comparison). The problem isn't combat logs, its players playing in PUGS. Players need to find like minded players to play with, players who enjoy the game in the same ways. Not too mention, if I decide to start a PUG, I have every right to decide who joins it and under what conditions. Players are free to start their own PUGs with their own conditions. Don't like it...simply find like minded players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forsbacka Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 You clearly have never had fun. Some think that doing "challenging" things in a game is fun. You must be a dude that always chooses easy difficulty from options in every game. Such a shame that there is no other option to choose in ToR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I still don't understand how WoW and Rift are apparently every MMO.were you actually going to list any of those supposed "most mmos" that don't have combat logs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menisong Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 You clearly have never had fun. LOL, same can be said for you. What you find fun is an opinion. Most people enjoy getting better at games they play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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