2/22/2012 -> Can we get an update on where the Combat Log is?

[Forsbacka]

Most (as in all minus a few exceptions) MMOs have either no log at all, or a non-timestamped non-exportable combat log that only shows your numbers.

 

Are you saying that in all those games people are simply bad, there's no competitiveness, and what's more players can't improve and have no idea of what their class does and how it compares to other classes? Really?

 

 

And none of those few games that doesnt have combat logs doesnt require every member in your group to optimize their performace due the easier boss fights.

[Truga]

How does having a little app telling you what to do, or reading an internet post telling you what rotation/build to use, make the bosses harder?

 

You want more challenging bosses, you can do it without needing meters. My earlier post in this thread explains why.

 

Meters actually have nothing to do with content difficulty at all (except for maybe bads, it makes their game easier), and whoever brought that up as an argument deserves no replies/posts from anyone.

[Truga]

And none of those few games that doesnt have combat logs doesnt require every member in your group to optimize their performace due the easier boss fights.

 

I laughed out loud when I read this. You obviously haven't played a lot of games if you think WoW is hard.

[Forsbacka]

How does having a little app telling you what to do, or reading an internet post telling you what rotation/build to use, make the bosses harder?

 

You want more challenging bosses, you can do it without needing meters. My earlier post in this thread explains why.

 

Casue you dont knwo if a member of your raid is doing good or bad dps, therefor bosses are tuned towards to an average player which gives no challenge to better ones.

[Maestrodomus]

I definitely want one but it's completely unnecessary at this point.

[Stupiddrummer]

IF it's ever implemented you can choose to not use it on a individual basis but you cannot avoid it's use in groups.

 

Best to leave it out as it does more harm than good and since the content is so easy there is no reason to implement something that might make it easier.

 

doesn't sound like a combat log problem, sounds like a content problem.

 

look, im DPS and my job is very important to me. If i'm not doing the most or close to the most damage i can possibly do then what value do i provide the group?? why not get a healer and 3 tanks?? I don't care about what groups think about my damage, i care what i think about my damage. Stop worrying so much about what others think about you.

[Forsbacka]

I definitely want one but it's completely unnecessary at this point.

 

I agree, with current content its not needed but if they ever implent harder fights than lets say above early MC bosses level (which nightmare modes are now) where you could have 40% of players beeing afk, it will be needed.

[Ordric]

some people are happy without, some people are not

 

give the not happy people combat log -> more happy people

amirite?

 

 

it's like if your hobby was archery ... maybe some people are happy just when they hit the target

and some want to take a closer look, you know analyse stuff, improve their aiming, take wind into account .. stuff like that ... so they get better

 

and I honestly think people who are against things like mods/macros/logs etc... are just lazy and afraid they are going to s.uck even more

[Forsbacka]

doesn't sound like a combat log problem, sounds like a content problem.

 

look, im DPS and my job is very important to me. If i'm not doing the most or close to the most damage i can possibly do then what value do i provide the group?? why not get a healer and 3 tanks?? I don't care about what groups think about my damage, i care what i think about my damage. Stop worrying so much about what others think about you.

 

WHen every member needs to do lest say 10k dps and 4 people are doing 6k and boss aint going down, then you have to replace those 4 people to better ones, but you are right, aslong as the bosses are this trivial and go down, no one needs to worry how they perform.

[Rollcageuk]

I laughed out loud when I read this. You obviously haven't played a lot of games if you think WoW is hard.

 

Actually, WOW did for a little while get hard.

 

Then everyone quit so blizz had to nerf it all back to easy mood.

 

I don't get it really, it was more challenging which most of the posters here are saying the want, but when blizz actually made it challenging, everyone left.

 

So in fact they don't want hard mode, what they in fact want is easy mode! That does make a lot more sense, you don't know how to play, so I want an app that will do the challenging stuff for me.

 

I actually hope that BW come up with some innovative bosses that do some wierd random things, making all the logs people want completely useless! Then you'll have no choice but to L2P.

[ferroz]

All the casuals I talk to are actually against the idea of a combat meter because they want to play...casually...and for fun.

All of the casuals that I talk to are actually in favor of the idea of a combat meter because they like to play casually and for fun.

[Drewser]

But you cant change the players cause u dont know whos udnerperforming in your group. So far biggest challenge in nightmare mode operations comes from the fact that you cant know in any possible way whos DPS is good and who is bad or mediocre. Aslong as there is no way to measure whos bad and whos not, all content has to be this easy that basically anyone can clear it.

 

I don't disagree with anything you posted.

 

I responded to the guy that said we need combat logs for balancing reasons which is 100% incorrect.

[Telendria]

WHen every member needs to do lest say 10k dps and 4 people are doing 6k and boss aint going down, then you have to replace those 4 people to better ones, but you are right, aslong as the bosses are this trivial and go down, no one needs to worry how they perform.

 

and in PvP this argument works how?

[ferroz]

Most (as in all minus a few exceptions) MMOs have either no log at all, or a non-timestamped non-exportable combat log that only shows your numbers.

Can you give some examples to support most? becaus all the ones I'm familiar with have time stamped exportable logs that show everything that was in range for you to see.

 

Are you saying that in all those games people

Lets not put the cart befor the horse... first establish "all those games" is actually a true statement, eh?

[Forsbacka]

Actually, WOW did for a little while get hard.

 

Then everyone quit so blizz had to nerf it all back to easy mood.

 

I don't get it really, it was more challenging which most of the posters here are saying the want, but when blizz actually made it challenging, everyone left.

 

So in fact they don't want hard mode, what they in fact want is easy mode! That does make a lot more sense, you don't know how to play, so I want an app that will do the challenging stuff for me.

 

I actually hope that BW come up with some innovative bosses that do some wierd random things, making all the logs people want completely useless! Then you'll have no choice but to L2P.

 

 

Thats not true, HC Ragnaros in Cata is most brutal fight in MMORPG history. HC lich king when it mattered, HC firefighter, yogg with 0 guardians etc comes to mind as fights that no casual or bad players completed. From earier times, 4hm, C'thun, Muru prenerf were quite challenging also. None of these fights cant be done in ToR on any timeframe without combat logs.

[Stupiddrummer]

WHen every member needs to do lest say 10k dps and 4 people are doing 6k and boss aint going down, then you have to replace those 4 people to better ones, but you are right, aslong as the bosses are this trivial and go down, no one needs to worry how they perform.

 

this is where i think a lot of people are getting scared. You do not necessarily have to replace those people. If you had combat logs you could look at their dmg and see what they are doing wrong and where they can improve.

 

I don't know why everyone assumes MMOs are an elitest, cut-throat environment. Its about helping others and others helping you. You have the most control over the players you surround yourself with.

Edited February 23, 2012 by Stupiddrummer

[Forsbacka]

and in PvP this argument works how?

 

What about PvP? There aint any serious PvP and wont be before combat logs. Players cant give number based feedback on any class balance issues. Everything is just guessing atm.

[Truga]

Actually, WOW did for a little while get hard.

 

Then everyone quit so blizz had to nerf it all back to easy mood.

 

I don't get it really, it was more challenging which most of the posters here are saying the want, but when blizz actually made it challenging, everyone left.

 

So in fact they don't want hard mode, what they in fact want is easy mode! That does make a lot more sense, you don't know how to play, so I want an app that will do the challenging stuff for me.

 

I actually hope that BW come up with some innovative bosses that do some wierd random things, making all the logs people want completely useless! Then you'll have no choice but to L2P.

 

Yeah, I'm also hoping for that, right now... It'd be very satisfying to go through posting history of people currently demanding harder content seeing crying about boss x and encounter y which wipe the floor repeatedly with them.

 

And don't get me wrong, I have nothing against combat logs at all, I just think they'd also bring nothing new to the game, and that they certainly aren't needed. They would, though, make my pug leading easier (note how I specifically said easier). The game is currently quite easy enough even for me, and I'm playing more or less casually (3 characters, none has a lot of purples yet), which makes me wonder why the crying for mods/logs.

 

I can understand wanting harder content (I want it too), but logs/mods have literally nothing to do with it...

Edited February 23, 2012 by Truga

[Forsbacka]

this is where i think a lot of people are getting scared. You do not necessarily have to replace those people. If you had combat logs you could look at their dmg and see what they are doing wrong and where they can improve.

 

I don't know why everyone assumes MMOs are an elitest, cut-throat environment. Its about helping others and others helping you. You have the most control over the players you surround yourself with.

 

Yes, its how guilds and players use those meters, some guilds are focused on progress and wants ready players, some have more casual approach or play with friends. But as it is now, you have no option to single out bad players in any way, to replace em, or helping em get better for greater good.

[Forsbacka]

I can understand wanting harder content (I want it too), but logs/mods have literally nothing to do with it...

 

Exept you cant get generally much better raid groups to actually down harder content which aint possible now since you cant tell whos bad and whos not.

[Truga]

Exept you cant get generally much better raid groups to actually down harder content which aint possible now since you cant tell whos bad and whos not.

 

Again, this is completely and utterly wrong. The more times you write this, the more chance there is of some bioware dev/game designer actually reading it, laughing out loud and deciding not to include it and instead buying more popcorn.

[Rollcageuk]

this is where i think a lot of people are getting scared. You do not necessarily have to replace those people. If you had combat logs you could look at their dmg and see what they are doing wrong and where they can improve.

 

I don't know why everyone assumes MMOs are an elitest, cut-throat environment. Its about helping others and others helping you. You have the most control over the players you surround yourself with.

 

If the utopian world you descibe ever appears, I'll happily live there.

However, in my experince of MMO raiding and combat logs, it does not tun into a how can we help him scenario, it instead turns into a blame game and kick them out.

 

Logs make the game less fun, you get forced into a build, into a rotation and into doing things in a way you might not want to, and as someone who has gone from serious player to casual, the casual way where I choose how to play is much more fun.

 

And I can't just not have them if I don't want, as it will eventually become mandatory, as it did in pandaville.

[Forsbacka]

Again, this is completely and utterly wrong. The more times you write this, the more chance there is of some bioware dev/game designer actually reading it, laughing out loud and deciding not to include it and instead buying more popcorn.

 

Ok, so hwo you can tell if your teammate is doing 1k or 10k dps without meters?

[Truga]

Ok, so hwo you can tell if your teammate is doing 1k or 10k dps without meters?

 

Put him against a mob with 10k hp. If he downs it in 1 second he's good. If he downs it in 10, he's not.

[Menisong]

It's quite convenient how they have been mum about the issue since casually mentioning that it will be added in some distant patch in the "near" future.

 

IMO we're not going to see a combat log any time soon because it will allow players to finally number crunch and from the data we will gather, we're soon going to find out that in most PvE fights, ranged is much more useful than melee for obvious reasons, and that certain classes are constantly on top of the DPS chart (Sorcs/Sages, BH/Troopers, Snipers, and Marauders).

 

A combat log is simply not good for BW right now as players will demand more tweaks and fixes from the personal and anecdotal data they will be gathering.

 

(I'm all for a combat log since I love numbers and I find it rather pathetic that a functionality which has been present since Ultima Online is not present in an MMO that cost more than your average Hollywood blockbuster.

 

This x1000. I think they are petrified to release a combat log as everyone would see how unbalanced the game is. I wouldn't even think of a combat log until we start seeing HUGE class balance patches. Very sad and dissappointing.