Vydor_HC Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) THats simly not true. Those who dont want to use the tools simply dont have to use them. You don't exclude the tools because some people dont like getting better. Put what you play into any other game, it doesnt make sense. The problem is that players that claim to just want to play for "fun, without min/maxing" at the SAME time want to play at the highest level and reap the rewards...this IS the problem. Actually it does effect the game. In the way players treat one another and in the way content is designed and how certain classes become FOTM more often. Like I said, the game functions perfectly well without logs, however, some players do not function well without them. There's a big difference. The game will work with or without them. Edited February 23, 2012 by Vydor_HC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroCaptMaximus Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 That is cause ToT nightmare modes are easiest raid content in MMOs hands down. Without DPS meters, they can never put any serious fights into the game cause you cant divide goods and bads in anyway atm so content has to be this level that almost anyone can do it. Same goes for competetive PvP, there wont be any before meters are in the game cause you cant balance classes in any way without knowing how much dmg each ability exactly does or prevents. And what's wrong with that, IMHO I payed the same $60 for the game you did so I should be able to enjoy all the content too. Preferably without all the drama that surrounds "proper" specs and gear that will inevitably occur as a result of combat logs and elitist behavior. All this good vs bad discussion is retarded. Instead of excludind people based on what you perceive to be their inadequacies why don't you try offering advice to help them improve their game play. As for PvP I have no opinion on the usefulness of combat log. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menisong Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Actually it does effect the game. In the way players treat one another and in the way content is designed and how certain classes become FOTM more often. Like I said, the game functions perfectly well without logs, however, some players do not function well without them. There's a big difference. The game will work with or without them. The game will work? The game will work with or without many many things..not a valid argument for not having them. Want the real solution? Make, join, a guidl with like minded players.....problem solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menisong Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 And what's wrong with that, IMHO I payed the same $60 for the game you did so I should be able to enjoy all the content too. Preferably without all the drama that surrounds "proper" specs and gear that will inevitably occur as a result of combat logs and elitist behavior. All this good vs bad discussion is retarded. Instead of excludind people based on what you perceive to be their inadequacies why don't you try offering advice to help them improve their game play. This is so wrong on every level. You pay to access the game...you stillactually have to play it. My 4 year old daughter should not be able to play in nightmare mode successfully..silly post, but really defiines the problem. As a game, there should be many many differnt levels of gameplay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vydor_HC Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 The game will work? The game will work with or without many many things..not a valid argument for not having them. Want the real solution? Make, join, a guidl with like minded players.....problem solved. -nods- I agree. And yes, there really is nothing detrimental to not having logs for the game. When you're debating adding truly optional components, a big part of that discussion must be will it truly be beneficial to the game and the effects it has on the game. By not having logs, the game has an element of uncertainty and some unknowns that actually enhance the overall game. Not knowing exactly what the numbers are is not a bad thing. If the game can function and the players can complete the content without them, no harm done. If they add them, and then have to change the way the develop content or the way players use those tools to discriminate against others..etc, the bad outweighs the good, then it's best not to put it in. Until I see some major deficiency in the game for not having one, I'll argue to keep them out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rollcageuk Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 This is EXACTLY how it should work in and nighmare modes. Again, you don't enjoy the competetiveness of the activity...nightmare modes are not for you. You have normal modes where players that share your game style can play together....this is EXACTLY why thery have 3 difficulty modes. So, am I supposed to miss out on the opportunity to play an instance because I don't want to use logs? Did BW say on their conditions, "Only leet theorycrafters will be able to access the whole game, everyone else, just keep killing 10 boars" No, that is not EXACTLY how the game is supposed to be played. I should be able to play the game using the tools provided. If the tools allow me to play in all parts of the game then fine. But you want harder bosses that you aren't good enough to face, so you also want the dps meters to tell you what you are doing wrong. Rather than L2P, you want a nice little app to hold your hand through the whole thing. You want to introduce a factor to the game that does nothing but make the game a worse experience for those of us that like to L2P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forsbacka Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 And what's wrong with that, IMHO I payed the same $60 for the game you did so I should be able to enjoy all the content too. Preferably without all the drama that surrounds "proper" specs and gear that will inevitably occur as a result of combat logs and elitist behavior. All this good vs bad discussion is retarded. Instead of excludind people based on what you perceive to be their inadequacies why don't you try offering advice to help them improve their game play. As for PvP I have no opinion on the usefulness of combat log. That is exactly why there is 3 different difficulty levels for operations, people that wants challenge ,min maxers and serious players can do nightmare modes, easy modes for casual players that wants to play like they want, with any specs or relaxed gaming with friends, hardmodes for people in between. Now there is only easy, easy and easy, so i wonder why there even is any differencet difficult levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stupiddrummer Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 -nods- I agree. And yes, there really is nothing detrimental to not having logs for the game. When you're debating adding truly optional components, a big part of that discussion must be will it truly be beneficial to the game and the effects it has on the game. By not having logs, the game has an element of uncertainty and some unknowns that actually enhance the overall game. Not knowing exactly what the numbers are is not a bad thing. If the game can function and the players can complete the content without them, no harm done. If they add them, and then have to change the way the develop content or the way players use those tools to discriminate against others..etc, the bad outweighs the good, then it's best not to put it in. Until I see some major deficiency in the game for not having one, I'll argue to keep them out. major deficiency - no theorycrafting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rollcageuk Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Actually it does effect the game. In the way players treat one another and in the way content is designed and how certain classes become FOTM more often. Like I said, the game functions perfectly well without logs, however, some players do not function well without them. There's a big difference. The game will work with or without them. This! The game will change as a result of logs, and some of us think those changes will not be a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vydor_HC Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 major deficiency - no theorycrafting You can do that with the numbers that are provided now, theory craft. With the acutally output it's really no longer theory...removes the mystery. That's not really a deficiency for the game, it's a deficiency for some players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rollcageuk Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 major deficiency - no theorycrafting Major Bonus - no theorycrafting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stupiddrummer Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) You can do that with the numbers that are provided now, theory craft. With the acutally output it's really no longer theory...removes the mystery. That's not really a deficiency for the game, it's a deficiency for some players. oh so as long as your having fun, screw everyone else edit; i have to edit this because there is sooo much wrong with your post. You cant theorycraft using casting numbers now. unless i hire a stenographer to copy down my game as im playing. with objective data you can ACTUALLY theorize. You can actually theorize, test, analyze, and conclude. holy empirical analysis!!! Edited February 23, 2012 by Stupiddrummer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menisong Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 So, am I supposed to miss out on the opportunity to play an instance because I don't want to use logs? Did BW say on their conditions, "Only leet theorycrafters will be able to access the whole game, everyone else, just keep killing 10 boars" No, that is not EXACTLY how the game is supposed to be played. I should be able to play the game using the tools provided. If the tools allow me to play in all parts of the game then fine. But you want harder bosses that you aren't good enough to face, so you also want the dps meters to tell you what you are doing wrong. Rather than L2P, you want a nice little app to hold your hand through the whole thing. You want to introduce a factor to the game that does nothing but make the game a worse experience for those of us that like to L2P. What? I love how you make stuff up. You never ever have to use logs. If you are playing your class at the highest level without logs...awesome, if you don't "need the tool" awesome..not a reason to not make it available. Yes, players should be excluded from participating in nightmare mode raids. Not everyone should be able to participate in nightmare modes..this is why there are THREE difficulty modes. I agree, you should be able to play the game with the tools provided...100%, thats why we want them to provide the tool. We want analyzing how you play, trying to get better to be part of the game..combat logs help in this regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediElf Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) I'll be happy when they come. Not that I'll be using them in any way, but they will allow me to choose who I group with,and whom I choose to place on ignore. Believe me the second that I see someone barking out orders, and insults, based on a Recount log from a trash pull, in a level normal mode 20 PUG....then I'll know who to avoid. I will simply seek out other players, and guilds, who share my views, and choose to not play in such a harsh competitive way. Also just FYI on this, but thanks to years and years of combat logs World of Warcraft is almost completely streamlined and 'mistake free'. You don't need any logs at all in order to play the game 'well', and when MOP comes out it will be simplified to the point where their will be no such thing as a 'bad build'. (Also as far as community goes, in WOW, spamming Recount in randoms, and using it as a level of judgement is laughed upon, and generally thought to be in extremely bad taste. After 7 years of meters, most people just don't care anymore.) If anything, this game will get easier to play. Edited February 23, 2012 by JediElf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forsbacka Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 So Trugak, can you now finally post those "most" MMOs that dont have combat logs? We are still waiting jhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vydor_HC Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) oh so as long as your having fun, screw everyone else Never said that. I see it as beneficial to the game. I do not care if others have differing opinions, they can argue for it all the want. I don't want the game to see adverse effects. The same could be said about your opinion, you want it to change so screw those that don't. That's not a valid way to approach the conversation. Edited February 23, 2012 by Vydor_HC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menisong Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 So Trugak, can you now finally post those "most" MMOs that dont have combat logs? We are still waiting jhere. He can't, he simly made it up hoping we would buy it. Same as a lot of players who just "play for fun" as they put it. They hope we will just buy that they can participat in nightmare modes when they simply cannot. Nothing wrong with not being able to do nightmare modes....oh except for the fact that a lot of you feel you have the RIGHT without actually playing at that level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vydor_HC Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 oh so as long as your having fun, screw everyone else edit; i have to edit this because there is sooo much wrong with your post. You cant theorycraft using casting numbers now. unless i hire a stenographer to copy down my game as im playing. with objective data you can ACTUALLY theorize. You can actually theorize, test, analyze, and conclude. holy empirical analysis!!! Exactly, thus going beyond pure theory crafting and getting into actual results. We can live without that, the game won't suffer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yeren Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 LOL The combat log will be used to ruin this game like it helped do to WoW. People will be forced into specs for raiding and then measured and then excluded without cookie cutter builds. I hope they don't ever add it. It's not really the log itself that did that as much as the 3rd party mods that consolidated the information into an easy to read format for EVERYONE in the groups to see. SWG too had a combat log, but it wasn't used to the same degree that I saw in WoW communities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stupiddrummer Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Never said that. I see it as beneficial to the game. I do not care if others have differing opinions, they can argue for it all the want. I don't want the game to see adverse effects. The same could be said about your opinion, you want it to change so screw those that don't. That's not a valid way to approach the conversation. what adverse effects?? the anti-sociall, elitest, noob-hating agenda ones that only exist in your MMO PTSD imagination? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forsbacka Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Also just FYI on this, but thanks to years and years of combat logs World of Warcraft is almost completely streamlined and 'mistake free'. You don't need any logs at all in order to play the game 'well', and when MOP comes out it will be simplified tot he point where their will be no such thing as a 'bad build'. If anything, this game will get easier to play. Looks like all the crying over the years showed that combat logs and damage meters in WOW has not made it easy to play but actually made most people realize that they aint very good in the game. Half of the people we raided with in Vanilla, up to 4hm in naxx wouldnt get a raid spot in my last guildin Cata. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stupiddrummer Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Exactly, thus going beyond pure theory crafting and getting into actual results. We can live without that, the game won't suffer. sure we can live without that...we can live without playing star wars all together, i dont see your point. some people want it. You dont. Adding it will not effect you. Adding it will effect me. i dont understand why you hate america so much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vydor_HC Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 what adverse effects?? the anti-sociall, elitest, noob-hating agenda ones that only exist in your MMO PTSD imagination? It's been discussed time and again in these threads. The tools lead to player exclusion, dumbing down of content, fotm classes that effect group makeup and player choice, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eszi Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Coming in Game Update 1.2, aimed for March™ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menisong Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 It's been discussed time and again in these threads. The tools lead to player exclusion, dumbing down of content, fotm classes that effect group makeup and player choice, etc. Which are virtually all solved by playing with others that share your playstyle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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