The reason Sorcerer/Sage CC is OP in PvP

[shazariahl]

I'm not proposing a nerf to the Lightning tree. I'm proposing that the lower tier talents cost more while the higher tier talents cost less so that those two talents I talked about in the OP can be moved up to deny access to the hybrid specs. Full tree builds wouldn't be effected. Hybrid specs would still work but the CC heavy type would no longer be untouchable.

 

Then which specific talents would you move DOWN the tree? All I see is you complaining about the CC and saying they should be moved up. What should be moved down to take their place? Bear in mind that the tree still has to be viable as a leveling and dps tree. Backlash is ALREADY a tier 4 ability - just how much higher do you think it should be moved? All the tier 5 talents tie into each other, or lead directly into our one and only tier 6 talent in that tree, so I have a hard time seeing how you'd move backlash higher than it is now without major restructuring. Even electric bindings is a tier 3 talent. It's not like these are available just by dipping 3-7 points into another tree. Both these talents require significant investment of points.

 

TBH, I don't even see why you consider this a big deal - if it wasn't for CL procs off wrath, no one would be tempted to even hybrid into this tree at all. Honestly - is there ANYONE who would go into this tree for EB and Backlash, if they coudn't cast CL off Wrath procs anymore? I highly doubt it.

 

Also bear in mind that it's our worst tree already. Changing it too drastically will make it even less desirable than it already is. There's a reason people go full corruption or full madness, but the only people using lightning tree are hybrids.

[Tumri]

Assassins and Ops are totally different beasts whos classes are built on stealth. Not close to the same thing. PTs and Jugs don't have escapes.

 

The point of this isn't really to discuss force camo as I honestly have no problem with it. But, when you go down the line of logic you've taken, there is no need for that escape skill for a class as devastatingly powerful as mara/sent.

 

"Devastatingly powerful"? Not sure where that's coming from but whatever.

 

The problem is the bubble stun isn't really comparable to anything else in the game. A Sorcerer that isn't specced into it can still do fine. A Sorcerer that truly abuses the skill is one of the hardest targets to kill. It's overpowered. Nothing else even comes close to being so strong(power and CD) in terms of hard CCs.

[Pistols]

Hedaar soongh or some backwater server like that. I want to roll a toon on fatman. Worth it?

 

[ ] yes

[ ] no

[x] maybe

[x] only interested in making out by the monkey bars

 

Fatman isn't great, isn't bad, but that might be chalked up to how bad PvP in this game is. But it's steady PvP (WZ's anyways)....World PvP does not exist, unless you count the pickle tickle at the Reb base getting dailys done.

[DrCereal]

Such animosity towards the OP from the Sorc community. He has explicitly said he doesn't want to nerf the abilities, just move talents around. He wants to keep hybrids viable, and not have them nerfed.

 

Me? I completely expect/hope to see Sorc hybrid specs NERFED TO THE GROUND... TO THE GROUND.

 

Why? For consistency. For every other class, you simply don't get any synergy, let alone OP-ness, from talent points above 10 in your "minor" trees.

 

Take BH's, both advanced ACs need to have a particular cylinder on, as determined by their spec. Talents points above 10 will generally buff abilities, as long as you are using the predetermined cylinder. For warriors it is saber forms, for assassins it's saber charges. In all cases, the talents pretty much force you to select a tree, and a role. A Merc, for example, can have mobility (pyro) or very strong casted abilities (arsenal), but not both. A Sin can have very strong survivability (Darkness) or very strong Burst (Deception), but not both. Why should Sorc's be any different?

 

Either this is a purposeful imbalance, or an oversight. If it's the later, which I suspect, the re-balancing (nerf) should come sooner rather than later. If it's the former case, then, well, expect to see a repeat of Warhammer Online.

Edited February 15, 2012 by DrCereal

[Tumri]

Then which specific talents would you move DOWN the tree? All I see is you complaining about the CC and saying they should be moved up. What should be moved down to take their place? Bear in mind that the tree still has to be viable as a leveling and dps tree. Backlash is ALREADY a tier 4 ability - just how much higher do you think it should be moved? All the tier 5 talents tie into each other, or lead directly into our one and only tier 6 talent in that tree, so I have a hard time seeing how you'd move backlash higher than it is now without major restructuring. Even electric bindings is a tier 3 talent. It's not like these are available just by dipping 3-7 points into another tree. Both these talents require significant investment of points.

 

TBH, I don't even see why you consider this a big deal - if it wasn't for CL procs off wrath, no one would be tempted to even hybrid into this tree at all. Honestly - is there ANYONE who would go into this tree for EB and Backlash, if they coudn't cast CL off Wrath procs anymore? I highly doubt it.

 

Also bear in mind that it's our worst tree already. Changing it too drastically will make it even less desirable than it already is. There's a reason people go full corruption or full madness, but the only people using lightning tree are hybrids.

 

I'm proposing that the higher tier talents like the +50% crit damage talent and forked lightning cost less points so that Backlash and Electric Bindings can be moved up. Some of the lower tier talents can cost more to compensate. For example Lightning Storm can consist of 3 points instead of 1.

[Dregas]

Pot meet kettle. Give it up man.

 

I pointed out obvious counters to those things. The problem is people cry nerf on anything that their class can't faceroll into the ground because they're bad, lazy, the paper to scissors, undergeared, poorly spec'd, or any other number of reasons. Melee toons have trouble dealing with CC because of their limited range. I get it. I am a JG. Yet, here I am....saying things are fine.

 

However, if all you're getting out of what I've said is what you posted; then you're pointless to reply to as you'll continue posting the above until I agree with you.

 

I really don't see how you can lump an entire group of people together and call them, lazy, undergeared, poorly spec'd, etc, and act like it's all hunky dory.

 

How on earth do you know all of this? How do you know they are lazy? How do you know what their gear is like?

 

That's why I take offense to your post and others like it. Because anytime someone post about an issue or complains about a class, you insist in YOUR perception that everything is ok so they must all suck. How do you not see yourself making sweeping generalizations? Man the thing you are complaining about all over the board? You know the way people just make facts up? Yeah you are doing the same thing to the ENTIRE PLAYER BASE.

 

This goes beyond you agreeing with me on the OP's point to just showing some common courtesy and respect to your fellows.

[Paulman]

"Devastatingly powerful"? Not sure where that's coming from but whatever.

 

The problem is the bubble stun isn't really comparable to anything else in the game. A Sorcerer that isn't specced into it can still do fine. A Sorcerer that truly abuses the skill is one of the hardest targets to kill. It's overpowered. Nothing else even comes close to being so strong(power and CD) in terms of hard CCs.

 

It's very strong if you play into it. But really any ranged can simply pop it before the melee jump in if they have any coordinatation.

[Telaan]

"Devastatingly powerful"? Not sure where that's coming from but whatever.

 

The problem is the bubble stun isn't really comparable to anything else in the game. A Sorcerer that isn't specced into it can still do fine. A Sorcerer that truly abuses the skill is one of the hardest targets to kill. It's overpowered. Nothing else even comes close to being so strong(power and CD) in terms of hard CCs.

 

I can't see how you can call yourself one of your server's best maras and not agree. That class, when well played, is my favorite DPS class to support.

 

Additionally the bubble stun breaks on damage immediately and the aoe root breaks on damage after two seconds. With all the AoE and DoTs in this game if you find those things OP, I honestly can't help you.

[kickinhead]

I'm proposing that the higher tier talents like the +50% crit damage talent and forked lightning cost less points so that Backlash and Electric Bindings can be moved up. Some of the lower tier talents can cost more to compensate. For example Lightning Storm can consist of 3 points instead of 1.

 

mhmm... trying to let my post with perfectly fine explanations why the skills are fine as they are (IMO even too UP) go under?

 

Proposing your talent-switching will basically kill the bubble-stun and Force-Wave stun, cuz no Sage will go up that far on the Tele-Tree with it being the worst tree to go high up on. So not even DMG-dealing Sages will be able to support with well-placed bubbles, cuz no DMG-dealing sorc is playing a Tele-heavy build...

 

You sir, are just a troll.

Edited February 15, 2012 by kickinhead

[Telaan]

Fatman isn't great, isn't bad, but that might be chalked up to how bad PvP in this game is. But it's steady PvP (WZ's anyways)....World PvP does not exist, unless you count the pickle tickle at the Reb base getting dailys done.

 

Who plays on that server....other than ciiv and you lol

[Tumri]

mhmm... trying to let my post with perfectly fine explanations why the skills are fine as they are (IMO even too UP) go under?

 

Proposing your talent-switching will basically kill the bubble-stun and Force-Wave stun, cuz no Sage will go up that far on the Tele-Tree with it being the worst tree to go high up on. So not even DMG-dealing Sages will be able to support with well-placed bubbles, cuz no DMG-dealing sorc is playing a Tele-heavy build...

 

You sir, are just a troll.

 

A class that is already very CC heavy to begin with specced with a mobile hybrid spec does not need bubble mezz and knockback root. In the current game Sorcerers specced this way have more CC and control than any other class or spec in the entire game by a decent margin. Not only do they have MORE but they have the almost a non-existent cooldown on two very powerful CCs that one can only imagine exist because a full 31-point lightning spec is highly dependent on hardcasting.

 

A hybrid spec Sorcerer does not need and should not have Backlash and semi-weak arguments can be made for Electric Bindings.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Tumri

[Paulman]

A class that is already very CC heavy to begin with specced with a mobile hybrid spec does not need bubble mezz and knockback root. In the current game Sorcerers specced this way have more CC and control than any other class or spec in the entire game by a decent margin. Not only do they have MORE but they have the almost a non-existent cooldown on two very powerful CCs that one can only imagine exist because a full 31-point lightning spec is highly dependent on hardcasting.

 

A hybrid spec Sorcerer does not need and should not have Backlash and semi-weak arguments can be made for Electric Bindings.

 

Anyone is mobile. *** are you talking about?

[Artthen]

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[Tumri]

Anyone is mobile. *** are you talking about?

 

A Lightning spec is dependent on hard casting spells. The spec also has to rely on Force Slow for a movement speed reduction. It's less focused on instant cast damage and DoT damage and as a result moving reduces DPS to nearly 0. The spec sort of needs talents to make them safer from being attacked.

 

 

A Madness spec is DoT based. Force Lightning provides a slow and is mainly spammed as a filler that provides procs. Movement doesn't effect this spec nearly as much as Lightning spec and as a result they don't need things like bubble mezz or a knockback root to create distance. They have instant cast Whirlwind with a 2s stun attached if it breaks. This saves them during surprise burst scenarios and such.

 

A Hybrid spec gets most of the DoT damage that Madness specs get while sacrificing the 31-point DoT and some DoT boosting talents. In exchange they get instant cast Chain Lightning through Wrath and their main filler and proc fisher move has a slow attached to it. They get the instant cast Whirlwind as well. They are as mobile as any Madness spec Sorcerer but are a bit more reliant on Wrath(to instant CL) for their damage. Currently they function as Madness Sorcerers that have a bubble mez and knockback root while dealing more AoE damage and having more burst.

[Telaan]

Hello everyone! Several posts have been removed from this thread for straying off-topic. As you continue to participate in this thread, please remember to heed the Rules of Conduct.

 

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Thanks for your cooperation!

 

Those discussions with my old friend from SWG, Pistols, were honestly the most constructive thing in this thread. I r sad u deleted them.

[Vales]

Bad players still whining over 100 pages? Amazing.

[shazariahl]

I'm proposing that the higher tier talents like the +50% crit damage talent and forked lightning cost less points so that Backlash and Electric Bindings can be moved up. Some of the lower tier talents can cost more to compensate. For example Lightning Storm can consist of 3 points instead of 1.

 

So it's not a nerf - you just propose making our tier 3 talents tier 5, our tier 4 talents tier 6, and our other tier 4 talent cost 3 points instead of 1. But we'll give you 50% crit with 3 talent points instead of 5 to compensate. PvEers would rejoice, but to me that seems like a nerf. Tell me truthfully - would you play this tree in PvP? You have no mobility, no heals, less dps than madness, no wrath procs, and your only CC abilities are way up the tree. Your 31 pt talent also sucks compared to the 31 pt madness talent when it come to PvP, and your force regen mechanic isn't as good.

 

So... its worse in every possible way except instead of insta-WW and the root from creeping terror, you get the root from knockback and the blind from EB. You don't even get more utility; it MIGHT be slightly better utility since they are both AE, but even that is highly debatable as both the madness CCs are targeted and have guaranteed duration regardless of damage. There would not be one single reason to play the tree you are describing. There already is no reason to play a pure lightning build, you would give us even less reason to do so.

 

Lightning is already the worst tree. If anything, it needs to be buffed, not made even less desirable. If it wasn't for hybrids dipping in for CL procs, no one would even spec this tree past lightning barrier.

[GrandMike]

Baddies still QQ. Awww.

[Vales]

My main for ages was a shadowpriest even when we were batteries. However one thing you forgot to mention is that the sorc does not have the resource issues a shadowpriest had (I quit just over year ago, so not sure how they are today).

 

If they increased the force cost of sorc spells by 3-4 times, then they would have one of the disadvantages that shadowpriests had.

 

Sorcs/Sages have resource issues unless you let them spam Lightning/TK Throw all day.

 

Most spells cost between 35 and 55 force. Increasing that by 3-4 times would mean I am out of forcepower after just 3-6 spells with only one form of regeneration: Noble Sacrifice. The spell which kills me and my force regeneration.

 

People should grow a clue before they spout such utter nonsense.

 

yah, lets do this 1more time lol

 

^are u just makeing that up or did a dev say it^

 

He is making this up. Just like his "Shadowpriest" comparison which is so flawed it is not funny anymore.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Vales

[Paulman]

A Lightning spec is dependent on hard casting spells. The spec also has to rely on Force Slow for a movement speed reduction. It's less focused on instant cast damage and DoT damage and as a result moving reduces DPS to nearly 0. The spec sort of needs talents to make them safer from being attacked.

 

 

A Madness spec is DoT based. Force Lightning provides a slow and is mainly spammed as a filler that provides procs. Movement doesn't effect this spec nearly as much as Lightning spec and as a result they don't need things like bubble mezz or a knockback root to create distance. They have instant cast Whirlwind with a 2s stun attached if it breaks. This saves them during surprise burst scenarios and such.

 

A Hybrid spec gets most of the DoT damage that Madness specs get while sacrificing the 31-point DoT and some DoT boosting talents. In exchange they get instant cast Chain Lightning through Wrath and their main filler and proc fisher move has a slow attached to it. They get the instant cast Whirlwind as well. They are as mobile as any Madness spec Sorcerer but are a bit more reliant on Wrath(to instant CL) for their damage. Currently they function as Madness Sorcerers that have a bubble mez and knockback root while dealing more AoE damage and having more burst.

 

Whether it's a channelled or cast you still can't move either way. Doens't really make the spec any more mobile. Maybe it's harder for people to run away from you. All of the spec's have the ability to keep targets slowed. Maybe it's a little easier to control with hybrid spec. It doesn;t make the class more mobile though.

[GrandMike]

Whether it's a channelled or cast you still can't move either way. Doens't really make the spec any more mobile. Maybe it's harder for people to run away from you. All of the spec's have the ability to keep targets slowed. Maybe it's a little easier to control with hybrid spec. It doesn;t make the class more mobile though.

 

Dont worrry, he is clueless. He thinks that 3 dots doing 5k combined damage over 18s is gonna kill someone. They even call it "burst" lol.

 

Not to mention that he plays one of the classes that mop the floor with sorc/sage of any spec which makes his OP even more hilarious.

 

The class is fine (except end taltents), have many counters, cant kill any healer spec. They just want to make sorc/sage free kill for anyone.

 

It wont happen lol

 

The way to solve "hybrid issue": buff end talents considerbaly. Problem solved.

Edited February 15, 2012 by GrandMike

[mamosh]

i think it also be a good idea to reduce the healing ppl can do while specced into dps trees nothing more annoying when almost killing a mage he bubble sprint away and by the time you reach him (GS) he healed himself back to full hp Edited February 15, 2012 by mamosh

[Vales]

Dont worrry, he is clueless. He thinks that 3 dots doing 5k combined damage over 18s is gonna kill someone. They even call it "burst" lol.

 

Not to mention that he plays one of the classes that mop the floor with sorc/sage of any spec which makes his OP even more hilarious.

 

The class is fine (except end taltents), have many counters, cant kill any healer spec. They just want to make sorc/sage free kill for anyone.

 

It wont happen lol

 

The way to solve "hybrid issue": buff end talents considerbaly. Problem solved.

 

 

Yeah it bugs me that my favourite spell asthaetically wise Turbulence for a 2 second cast does barely more base damage than 11 point TK Wave which can procc into in instant by two spells with talents and another 11 point AoE spell Force in Balance which is even instant from the get go and on top of that Turbulence has a 9 second CD.

 

Only advantage of Turbulence over TK Wave is that it deals internal damage but so does Force in Balance and that it crits automatically on doted targets but on the other hand I cannot CC dotted targets well.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Vales

[Vales]

i think it also be a good idea to reduce the healing ppl can do while specced into dps trees nothing more annoying when almost killing a mage he bubble sprint away and by the time you reach him (GS) he healed himself back to full hp

 

If he manages to get fully healed he will be very low on force. Both heals cost 50+ force and our pool is at best 600 big. Benevolence heals around for 1.5k, Deliverance like 3k (factored in crits for the avarage)

 

Do the math.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Vales

[Aidank]

If he manages to get fully healed he will be very low on force. Both heals cost 50+ force and our pool is at best 600 big. Benevolence heals around for 1.5k, Deliverance like 3k.

 

Do the math.

 

You mean an entire 1/12th of your force? Compare that to a scoundrels 1/4th of his energy for a single heal that does about 2k and you'll realize how stupid that sounds.

 

 

Doing the math, if you've got a 15kish health pool you'll be using half your force healing from 1 to full, I've never had a force problem in pvp except in stupidly long fights where I didn't get a chance to regen inbetween, but even then you can just life tap.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Aidank