The reason Sorcerer/Sage CC is OP in PvP

[biowareftw]

You know what? Lormif buddy you actually make a fantastic point here. Except the reason people are rerolling isn't the lore, it the part where you said, "seeing how it is the class move related to a fantasy rpg that most are used to."

 

I posted on this earlier, but in short a recent trend set by MMO Developers is to gimp melee classes and a create dominating caster classes. Everyone who has played MMOs KNEW that caster were going to be OP because that's what they are used to. Ice mages in WOW, Bright Wizards in War, Psy/radiation defenders in City of Heroes. All absolutely dominating classes that were light years ahead of every class.

 

They also were all considered "clothies" yet their spells/abilites made them so incredibly durable they could solo content and pvp like the melee classes could only dream of. And you know what? People are absolutely fine with it because of they wear "light armor".

 

Yet in the same breath if i complain that my tank class does awful dmg, no self heal to keep me alive, and "heavy armor" that mitigates NOTHING, those same people will tell me i am "working as intended." Because tanks, "are meant to be useless without their support."

 

WHAT?!

 

So do you see what I'm saying? When my guildies come to a new mmo with me they won't touch melee with a 10ft pole because they KNOW they are gonna be gimped. Instead they always opt for the caster, especially if it's a healing dmg hybrid. And so far they have been correct 100% of the time in the last 10 years. That right there is why everyone is rolling a Sorc, they are used to the mage like classes being a rock stars, so their amazing preformance is taken for granted and just downplayed as "business as usual."

 

Frost mages have never been this bad. I could actually stand playing a frost mage, because I at least had to time things, cast hard cc, and I could be countered.

 

My only counter playing as a hybrid sorc/sage was me dying of boredom before the warzone ended.

 

I already mastered this class years ago before we had gaming mice. It was called a shadow priest...except they were never this good (CC), and never this easy to play (don't have to shift in and out of shadow form). Other then that? The class is almost identical. It just has way too much CC/utility/dmg as a hybrid spec.

[Aidank]

I think more people relate to the consular yes.

 

So they make a trilogy all about what is basically a jedi guardian, that follows a jedi guardian, and doesn't even have people throwing crap with the force until the relatively crappy second trilogy, and you're going to tell me that fans relate more to consulars than jedi guardians with no justification behind it?

[Aidank]

Frost mages have never been this bad. I could actually stand playing a frost mage, because I at least had to time things, cast hard cc, and I could be countered.

 

My only counter playing as a hybrid sorc/sage was me dying of boredom before the warzone ended.

 

I already mastered this class years ago before we had gaming mice. It was called a shadow priest...except they were never this good (CC), and never this easy to play (don't have to shift in and out of shadow form). Other then that? The class is almost identical. It just has way too much CC/utility/dmg as a hybrid spec.

 

I also played a shadow priest in wow, so naturally my first pick was a sorcerer.

 

It's pretty ridiculous, it's like they decided to give them the amazing shadow priest bubble, damage and defensive utility while also tacking on frost mage mobility and crowd control, an interrupt, and BETTER healing.

 

I didn't play during cataclysm, but last time I played frost mages were pretty balanced with their middling damage. Sorcerers have pretty much gotten the best mechanics from multiple wow classes.

[biowareftw]

I think more people relate to the consular yes.

 

LOL. No...

 

Of all the stories on the republic side the sage/shadow one is the most boring and poorly written and executed.

 

The only way you could relate to the class story is if you thought episodes 1-3 were AWESOME (when all the jedi became stupid, and walked around in ambien comas) compared to the original trilogy.

 

In which case I would tell you to google search redlettermedia.

[Lormif]

So they make a trilogy all about what is basically a jedi guardian, that follows a jedi guardian, and doesn't even have people throwing crap with the force until the relatively crappy second trilogy, and you're going to tell me that fans relate more to consulars than jedi guardians with no justification behind it?

 

about a jedi knight and his sister the consular you mean?

[Lormif]

LOL. No...

 

Of all the stories on the republic side the sage/shadow one is the most boring and poorly written and executed.

 

The only way you could relate to the class story is if you thought episodes 1-3 were AWESOME (when all the jedi became stupid, and walked around in ambien comas) compared to the original trilogy.

 

In which case I would tell you to google search redlettermedia.

 

And how does that matter to which one they relate to outside of the game?

[Aidank]

about a jedi knight and his sister the consular you mean?

 

Are you trolling right now?

[Lormif]

Are you trolling right now?

 

have you never read the extended universe? Lea was a consular.

[shadowAI]

I also played a shadow priest in wow, so naturally my first pick was a sorcerer.

 

It's pretty ridiculous, it's like they decided to give them the amazing shadow priest bubble, damage and defensive utility while also tacking on frost mage mobility and crowd control, an interrupt, and BETTER healing.

 

I didn't play during cataclysm, but last time I played frost mages were pretty balanced with their middling damage. Sorcerers have pretty much gotten the best mechanics from multiple wow classes.

 

My main for ages was a shadowpriest even when we were batteries. However one thing you forgot to mention is that the sorc does not have the resource issues a shadowpriest had (I quit just over year ago, so not sure how they are today).

 

If they increased the force cost of sorc spells by 3-4 times, then they would have one of the disadvantages that shadowpriests had.

[Tumri]

...The EU? 99% of the population has no idea about anything Star Wars beyond the movies. It's VERY rare to find someone that actually reads the books. Granted more of the people that have experienced the EU play this game but it's a very big stretch trying to say that a significant part of the population of SWTOR know about the EU content.

[Jyuna]

Problem is Hybrid Madness/Lightning spec have all the things

All kind of CCs and better PVP deal than Any other spec..

 

ex> Lightning "Forked Lightning" cause 30% instant Chain lightning

but needs 3points and tier 5

"Wrath" tier4 1points, every skill include CL instant and 20% damage more

isn't that OP?

 

and Backlash, AE mezz, i think not OP..only it is for caster

in PVE..all member is near, so it doesn't metter, it's just somekind of additional protect

but in PVP...it becomes monster

 

i think solution is simple - raise tier

backlash - tier4 to 5

electric bindnig - 3 to 4

wrath - 4 to 6

[Sirolos]

Problem is Hybrid Madness/Lightning spec have all the things

All kind of CCs and better PVP deal than Any other spec..

 

ex> Lightning "Forked Lightning" cause 30% instant Chain lightning

but needs 3points and tier 5

"Wrath" tier4 1points, every skill include CL instant and 20% damage more

isn't that OP?

 

and Backlash, AE mezz, i think not OP..only it is for caster

in PVE..all member is near, so it doesn't metter, it's just somekind of additional protect

but in PVP...it becomes monster

 

i think solution is simple - raise tier

backlash - tier4 to 5

electric bindnig - 3 to 4

wrath - 4 to 6

 

Wow your solutions suck..

 

 

Make Wrath work ONLY with crushing darkness

 

Move Backlash to the healer tree

 

Make Bindings a 2sec root.

[Rallic]

I was with you for about 1/2 of your recap post.

It's when you get into the burst dmg and 90% after that you lose me.

Sorcs can not out dmg other classes.

 

Is give all most 100% of my cc for a ops snipers marauders hell a dps spec jugs dps.

Dots that hit worth a dam would be nice. Let me be a true caster not a suport class.

 

As I dropped the light/madness spec for a heal/madness the extra cc you get dont mater to me I do very well with what iv got.

 

With out shield farming I run 180k dps with any place from 60k healing to 100k

I tend to be a self healer 99% of the time but escort ball runners as much as I can and heal bubble them to the TD .

 

As a healer/madness I get the 2class heals , one instant dot and one channeled heal.and purge has a small heal tacked on .

 

My knockback has no root on it don't push you far at all .

A stun

A ww mez

A interupe

Instant cast dot

Cast dot that can be instant if used the filler spell that is channeled and each one of you QQers try and qq about.

Slow , has a small amount of dmg but instant.

 

Played right I can out live most classes 1v1 as I know how to use my class . Fighting a good player that knows his class its a good fight.

Vs ops , marauders , and well played assassins I'm going down if I miss time one spell and or stim or relic.

 

In groups where the team is calling targets my build will fill in as a back up healer/dps/cc .

Ad tanks with guard/taunt its GG at that point.

 

So is my sorc op as well?as in the other thread for this most was saying the same thing that no sorc is op solo its when they are teamed up that its op.

 

I say that teams should beat your pug as we are calling targets ccing and well not a pug .

I get rofl stomped a **** tun each time I pug.

[biowareftw]

My main for ages was a shadowpriest even when we were batteries. However one thing you forgot to mention is that the sorc does not have the resource issues a shadowpriest had (I quit just over year ago, so not sure how they are today).

 

If they increased the force cost of sorc spells by 3-4 times, then they would have one of the disadvantages that shadowpriests had.

 

Exactly. Add to that shadowpriests had nowhere near the control/CC, had/have a much more complex rotation and sage/sorc doesn't have to shift in and out of shadow form to offer utility.

 

I have never seen a caster class (the hybrid is the major problem here) have so much utility (shield/heal other players, dispel CC)/dmg/INSTANT CAST CC, while at the same time not suffering a penalty for this.

 

If you offhealed and gave players shields on a shadow priest you were OOM so fast you were useless. Frost mage had the control but couldn't heal people and didn't have passive dmg. Add to that when they were herp/derp and spammed all instants they went OOM. On top of that they never were leading dmg in a battleground unless they were playing against the worst players on earth.

 

It feels like this class was designed by some horrible caster from WoW (many of the designers said they played WoW) who wanted every advantage possible, while at the same time being a stupidly easy class to play.

 

I can deal with that. The hybrid spec? That crap has to go. It takes any problems that an already really good class has and elminates them.

[Mohawksinspace]

im goign to randomly pick things out this bad is complaining about

 

 

 

 

so we shouldnt have static barrier.. or at least to way to make it 20% more powerful? HOLY GOD 20%

 

 

i guess the class with the lowest hP and lowest dmg mitigation should not have a bubble huh?

 

who should?

 

Point to me a class whose primary weakness is completely compensated by a low cd buff they can keep up pretty much 100% of the time.

[Lormif]

Point to me a class whose primary weakness is completely compensated by a low cd buff they can keep up pretty much 100% of the time.

 

you first, they are not in the game.

[biowareftw]

Problem is Hybrid Madness/Lightning spec have all the things

All kind of CCs and better PVP deal than Any other spec..

 

ex> Lightning "Forked Lightning" cause 30% instant Chain lightning

but needs 3points and tier 5

"Wrath" tier4 1points, every skill include CL instant and 20% damage more

isn't that OP?

 

and Backlash, AE mezz, i think not OP..only it is for caster

in PVE..all member is near, so it doesn't metter, it's just somekind of additional protect

but in PVP...it becomes monster

 

i think solution is simple - raise tier

backlash - tier4 to 5

electric bindnig - 3 to 4

wrath - 4 to 6

 

Much simpler solution. Move madness talent to 31 points in the madness/balance tree (no cooldown on lightning spam).

 

Solves everything.

 

Class would be less played (prevent overpopulation which is already a problem) because they would blossom at later levels in pvp.

 

Class would not lose any pve dps viability or dps role in warzones.

 

In addition resolve needs refined/looked at, but I think that is fairly obvious to any dev who has actually played a warzone.

 

Or? Allow class to become even more grossly overplayed then it is due to OP hybrid specs and nerf them into the ground for the same reason ret paladins got nerfed to the ground in years.

 

Both work for me...but I would rather see a class remain viable.

Edited February 15, 2012 by biowareftw

[Sirolos]

Point to me a class whose primary weakness is completely compensated by a low cd buff they can keep up pretty much 100% of the time.

 

Can I pick classes that arent in the game?..

 

Like the Sarlacc Enforcer..

 

OR

 

Malgus AC

[Mohawksinspace]

Can I pick classes that arent in the game?..

 

Like the Sarlacc Enforcer..

 

OR

 

Malgus AC

 

A Sorc/Sage who are more sturdy than ops/scoundrels and non-tank assassins/shadows even though they have far more utility?

[Sirolos]

Much simpler solution. Move madness talent to 31 points in the madness/balance tree (no cooldown on lightning spam).

 

Solves everything.

 

Class would be less played (prevent overpopulation which is already a problem) because they would blossom at later levels in pvp.

 

Class would not lose any pve dps viability or dps role in warzones.

 

In addition resolve needs refined/looked at, but I think that is fairly obvious to any dev who has actually played a warzone.

 

Why do that?

 

Then people would still complain about Sorcs getting too much CC..

 

You trade instant cast crushing darkness for instant cast 30m root + internal DoT.

 

What your trying to propose is to try and kill the class entirely, Im proposing the kill of hybrids like they did with Assassins.

 

You take away the instant cast AoE from Wrath

 

Remove the AoE blind from lightning and move it up in the healers tree.( or raise its resolve generation x4 so that its on par with the resolve gain from whirlwind)

 

And make the Root work like other roots in game ( 2 seconds).

Edited February 15, 2012 by Sirolos

[biowareftw]

A Sorc/Sage who are more sturdy than ops/scoundrels and non-tank assassins/shadows even though they have far more utility?

 

I don't play an assassin/shadow (sentinel) but when I saw your hybrid spec get nerfed when they still had the hybrid sorc/sage spec in game?

 

My head exploded. Add to that the surge nerf is gonna hit your dps spec pretty damn hard and make scoundrels/ops borderline useless in group pvp.

 

I just don't understand how the hybrid spec has made it this far for this long.

[Lormif]

A Sorc/Sage who are more sturdy than ops/scoundrels and non-tank assassins/shadows even though they have far more utility?

 

may wanna count up that cc to see that 1 or 2 more is not far more.

[bellok]

Do you know what will really fix madness/telekinetic balance hybrids? Adding a 1 or 2 second cool down to the actual skills madness and telekinetic balance. Also slightly increasing force cost to the activation of telekinetic throw, and the sorc equivalent. Whoever on the BW dev team thought it would be a good idea to give a skill moderate damage mixed with a modifier that slows movement that also slows down the target's ability to use certain skills no cooldown is a freakin idiot.

[biowareftw]

Why do that?

 

Then people would still complain about Sorcs getting too much CC..

 

You trade instant cast crushing darkness for instant cast 30m root + internal DoT.

 

What your trying to propose is to try and kill the class entirely, Im proposing the kill of hybrids like they did with Assassins.

 

You take away the instant cast AoE from Wrath

 

Remove the AoE blind from lightning and move it up in the healers tree.( or raise its resolve generation x4 so that its on par with the resolve gain from whirlwind)

 

And make the Root work like other roots in game ( 2 seconds).

 

And I would tell them they are fools and defend your class. You seem to think we are here to try to "nerf you to the ground". We aren't. We simply want the class brought back to reality.

 

There is nothing wrong with the full madness/balance spec other then being too easy to excel at, but you can say the same thing about mercs/commandos.

 

You seem to forget...Many of us beta tested this class or play it ourselves.

 

How does my change kill the class? It wouldn't effect lightning (pve). It wouldn't effect healing (pve/pvp). It wouldn't effect a full balance/madness spec which you can still do as well or better then other ranged on in a warzone.

 

The ONLY thing it would effect is the hybrid spec and low level pvp. Lighting is better for leveling anyways and if you think it is unfair that the class would be a late bloomer in pvp? Try playing other classes in the game at low levels who are completely ineffective until higher levels.

 

Try owning it up as a low level guardian/juggernaut in pvp...LOL.

Edited February 15, 2012 by biowareftw

[Tumri]

I think a big part of their reluctance to touch Sorcerers is the fact that they make up the biggest chunk of the playerbase. As a new MMO SWTOR is vulnerable to rage quits and hasty unsubscribers. An MMO where people have already invested a large amount of time and money is a much safer MMO. Right now it's dangerous from a financial/business standpoint to anger the largest part of the playerbase.