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The reason Sorcerer/Sage CC is OP in PvP


Tumri

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ever tried removing stuns/CC from your teammates?....

 

Really, this is ridiculous: 1 simple spell of any other sorc well played will completely shut down any stun/CC from the sorc.

Also, Learn how to position yourself so you don't have 5 ppl getting stunned by 1 Force Wave

 

Besides, the Bubble is pretty much everything a Sorc has against Burst-DMG and when ppl start to get that and start spiking targets, even the 20% increased absorption will be sth. to be laughed at.

 

This is nothing more than a well put-together whinethread of sm1 who has never played a sorc.

 

Basically, L2p.

 

So you're saying to counter a Sorcerer's CC you need another Sorcerer's CC? Well I'll definitely be trying that out. I can't believe I never thought of it. We all roll Sorcerers so that Sorcerer CC isn't as impossible to deal with. While we're at it let's just petition Bioware to remove all other ACs from the game. Someone might accidentally pick something other than a Sorcerer.

 

/sarcasm

 

^ Sorry. Had to be done so I could have my lulz. :)

 

In all seriousness in a group scenario the side with more Sorcerers wins. You said it yourself. If a Sorcerer is mass CCing you then you need a Sorcerer yourself to counteract it. Three Sorcerers against One Sorcerer and Two other DPS usually ends up being the Three Sorcerers winning. In large scale battles a Sorcerer provides more than any other class for the group. In tactical PvP Sorcerer mobility and CC wins games. They're simply the best PvP class. With the two talent's I'm campaigning against they're just the best at everything by an incredible margin.

 

Do you really think that if hybrid Sorcerers lost access to a 5 second root on knockback and a 3 second AoE immobilize on a bubble pop/click off they would be underpowered? No. They would still be the best PvP class, just not by such a gigantic margin. What I'm asking for would simply bring them down to Earth. They're currently miles ahead of everyone.

 

The big thing that people seem to be ignoring is exactly what I'm asking for with this post.

 

Not a single person since this thread's creation has given reasons for why this specific change I'm requesting is too much.

 

Not a single person has given me reasons as to why hybrid spec Sorcerers NEED these two talents.

 

Not a single person has explained why these two specific talents are balanced. When no other AoE root exists on such a low cooldown. When no other AoE mezz comes close to the power of "Backlash".

 

I want someone to explain to me how an AoE mezz that comes from a pre-castable bubble on a 20 second cooldown for self cast is balanced in a game where the closest thing is a 1.5 minute cooldown AoE mezz on a class with no other fire and forget CC. I want someone to explain how having this same AoE mezz be triggered by casting a bubble on SOMEONE ELSE(this has a cooldown of 4.5 seconds) is balanced. Explain why Sorcerers NEED this.

 

For those of you that STILL haven't fully read the main post the two talents I'm talking about are "Backlash" and "Electric Bindings". If you haven't already, please read it.

Edited by Tumri
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Yes, clearly because I'm pointing out obvious balances within the game it makes me so 1337. Basically, it's get on the bandwagon and cry nerf or g t f o right?

 

:rolleyes:

 

Try harder next time.

 

Look at what you are saying and how you are wording it..."obvious balances".

 

Your post implies that the things that you suggest are SUPER simple to do. Yet everyone who is on this forum or in the game complaining about this hybrid spec has been too stupid to figure it out.

 

A completely cynical assumption of the "low" intelligence of most players, while simultaneously stroking your own ego.

 

All you are doing is saying, "I am smart and you are dumb" over and over again.

 

Come back to the thread when you have something positive to add.

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Not a single person since this thread's creation has given reasons for why this specific change I'm requesting is too much.

 

Not a single person has given me reasons as to why hybrid spec Sorcerers NEED these two talents.

 

Not a single person has explained why these two specific talents are balanced.

 

For those of you that STILL haven't fully read the main post the two talents I'm talking about are "Backlash" and "Electric Bindings". If you haven't already, please read it.

 

The reasons are so they have some escape from melee. The sorc in general is designed to survive by staying out of range of melee. Melee classes have abilities to close distance as well as CC of their own.

 

A full balance spec has survivbility through extra stun and heal from dots. Heal spec has survivability through better healing and self healing. The tele sage and hybrid spec have those abilities you just mentioned.

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Not a single person since this thread's creation has given reasons for why this specific change I'm requesting is too much.

 

Not a single person has given me reasons as to why hybrid spec Sorcerers NEED these two talents.

 

Not a single person has explained why these two specific talents are balanced. When no other AoE root exists on such a low cooldown. When no other AoE mezz comes close to the power of "Backlash".

 

I want someone to explain to me how an AoE mezz that comes from a pre-castable bubble on a 20 second cooldown for self cast is balanced in a game where the closest thing is a 1.5 minute cooldown AoE mezz on a class with no other fire and forget CC. I want someone to explain how having this same AoE mezz be triggered by casting a bubble on SOMEONE ELSE(this has a cooldown of 4.5 seconds) is balanced. Explain why Sorcerers NEED this.

 

For those of you that STILL haven't fully read the main post the two talents I'm talking about are "Backlash" and "Electric Bindings". If you haven't already, please read it.

 

Lets turn the tables a bit. Why does marauder need a combat invis?

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The reasons are so they have some escape from melee. The sorc in general is designed to survive by staying out of range of melee. Melee classes have abilities to close distance as well as CC of their own.

 

A full balance spec has survivbility through extra stun and heal from dots. Heal spec has survivability through better healing and self healing. The tele sage and hybrid spec have those abilities you just mentioned.

 

A hybrid is mobile. A mobile class does not need an AoE mezz like that. A mobile class doesn't need that on top of what they already have.

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So you're saying to counter a Sorcerer's CC you need another Sorcerer's CC? Well I'll definitely be trying that out. I can't believe I never thought of it. We all roll Sorcerers so that Sorcerer CC isn't as impossible to deal with. While we're at it let's just petition Bioware to remove all other ACs from the game. Someone might accidentally pick something other than a Sorcerer.

 

/sarcasm

 

^ Sorry. Had to be done so I could have my lulz. :)

 

In all seriousness in a group scenario the side with more Sorcerers wins. You said it yourself. If a Sorcerer is mass CCing you then you need a Sorcerer yourself to counteract it. Three Sorcerers against One Sorcerer and Two other DPS usually ends up being the Three Sorcerers winning. In large scale battles a Sorcerer provides more than any other class for the group. In tactical PvP Sorcerer mobility and CC wins games. They're simply the best PvP class. With the two talent's I'm campaigning against they're just the best at everything by an incredible margin.

 

Do you really think that if hybrid Sorcerers lost access to a 5 second root on knockback and a 3 second AoE immobilize on a bubble pop/click off they would be underpowered? No. They would still be the best PvP class, just not by such a gigantic margin. What I'm asking for would simply bring them down to Earth. They're currently miles ahead of everyone.

 

The big thing that people seem to be ignoring is exactly what I'm asking for with this post.

 

Not a single person since this thread's creation has given reasons for why this specific change I'm requesting is too much.

 

Not a single person has given me reasons as to why hybrid spec Sorcerers NEED these two talents.

 

Not a single person has explained why these two specific talents are balanced. When no other AoE root exists on such a low cooldown. When no other AoE mezz comes close to the power of "Backlash".

 

I want someone to explain to me how an AoE mezz that comes from a pre-castable bubble on a 20 second cooldown for self cast is balanced in a game where the closest thing is a 1.5 minute cooldown AoE mezz on a class with no other fire and forget CC. I want someone to explain how this same AoE mezz that can be triggered by casting a bubble on SOMEONE ELSE(this has a cooldown of 4.5 seconds) is balanced. Explain why Sorcerers NEED this.

 

For those of you that STILL haven't fully read the main post the two talents I'm talking about are "Backlash" and "Electric Bindings". If you haven't already, please read it.

 

I think your exaggerating somewhat though mate. Sorc are deffo not the best at everything by an incredible margin. That is stretching your original argument considerably. They die fast if they are focused, cannot stealth, have pretty fair to middling dps, wear light armor, crap melee. The hybrid spec gives them an aoe nuke but most Sorc won't waste points on a shield that can Stun on break if they have any sense.

I originally thought your posts were well thought out but if you are gonna claim things like that then it makes me question the validity of your whole arguement.

Against crap geared people that spec is powerful, people in even gear won't let you chain cast or proc anything, they just stomp your face off.

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I think your exaggerating somewhat though mate. Sorc are deffo not the best at everything by an incredible margin. That is stretching your original argument considerably. They die fast if they are focused, cannot stealth, have pretty fair to middling dps, wear light armor, crap melee. The hybrid spec gives them an aoe nuke but most Sorc won't waste points on a shield that can Stun on break if they have any sense.

I originally thought your posts were well thought out but if you are gonna claim things like that then it makes me question the validity of your whole arguement.

Against crap geared people that spec is powerful, people in even gear won't let you chain cast or proc anything, they just stomp your face off.

 

My apologies. That was a bit of a sheer frustration post. Too many "L2P TROLOLOL" and "I t7p3 l1k3 th15" posts over the course of a week long thread that's had about 1300 posts(a lot of which I spent hours responding to). Not a single person has even tried to explain how a mezz as powerful as that is balanced. I can understand Electric Bindings maybe but an AoE mezz as powerful as that? Nothing in the game even comes close. I'm actually kind of skeptical as to whether it was even intended to work the way it does. A 4.5 second cooldown on AoE mezz if you have allies around you? 20 second cooldown but pre-castable so that you can have more than one trigger in a short timespan? How does that work out to be balanced exactly?

Edited by Tumri
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Look at what you are saying and how you are wording it..."obvious balances".

 

Your post implies that the things that you suggest are SUPER simple to do. Yet everyone who is on this forum or in the game complaining about this hybrid spec has been too stupid to figure it out.

 

A completely cynical assumption of the "low" intelligence of most players, while simultaneously stroking your own ego.

 

All you are doing is saying, "I am smart and you are dumb" over and over again.

 

Come back to the thread when you have something positive to add.

 

Pot meet kettle. Give it up man.

 

I pointed out obvious counters to those things. The problem is people cry nerf on anything that their class can't faceroll into the ground because they're bad, lazy, the paper to scissors, undergeared, poorly spec'd, or any other number of reasons. Melee toons have trouble dealing with CC because of their limited range. I get it. I am a JG. Yet, here I am....saying things are fine.

 

However, if all you're getting out of what I've said is what you posted; then you're pointless to reply to as you'll continue posting the above until I agree with you.

Edited by Telaan
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Please shut up about this crap, if you can't post anything related to the actual topic then start another thread in the relevant forum. I know your passionate about star wars but your hijacking someone else's thread. Thread is about whether a hybrid spec for is op (IMO it isnt) not whether luke can pee further than Darth Gary or whatever.

 

Actually they started with the lore crap first. I didn't even like the extended universe outside one series. But if they are going to use lore to prove their point? They may as well be right...

 

They derailed the thread. Nothing more needs to be said then...

 

1. Overpopulated class due to having an overpowered hybrid spec.

 

2. Being rerolled like crazy right now because people realize it (same thing happened in beta). Sage isn't immune this is a problem on both factions. Has nothing to do with lightning or story.

 

3. Other hybrid spec in the game that was considered by NOONE to be overpowered was nerfed and all other classes are balanced around going deep into talent trees which the Hybrid Sorc/sage spec does not do.

 

4. Spec needs to be non viable by moving talents around because this class was balanced around speccing deep into trees (just like all other specs). The suggestion I gave was move madness talent to 31 point talent in madness/balance which wouldn't touch specs that were BALANCED and had internal testing that validated them as balanced. You would lose no dps viability in pve or pvp. That isn't good enough though. You simply want to be OP.

 

The argument? Calling people bad. Presenting wrong lore. Talking smack when any good sorc or sage who tested or plays the spec now realizes it is OP and in no way balanced.

 

There is no argument here. The spec was not tested by Bioware/EA, people gave feedback that it was OP in beta and were flamed harassed by the exact same people in this thread.

 

Harassment ain't gonna work. Why? Numbers. Too many people are learning about the spec and playing it.

 

BTW hilarious to see the same people here that made a crusade out of calling for nerfs on ops/scoundrels, telling everyone that a hybrid spec which only a handfull of people played or attempted in beta is somehow balanced and that there is perfect game balance now that their counter has got the "to the ground" treatment.

 

Hypocrisy, stupidity and flaming people. Simply hilarious. Half the people in this thread don't even play the hybrid spec and are too dense to realize this wouldn't effect them whatsoever. They can still continue to faceroll as full balance...They just won't be stupidly OP.

Edited by biowareftw
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I think your exaggerating somewhat though mate. Sorc are deffo not the best at everything by an incredible margin. That is stretching your original argument considerably. They die fast if they are focused, cannot stealth, have pretty fair to middling dps, wear light armor, crap melee. The hybrid spec gives them an aoe nuke but most Sorc won't waste points on a shield that can Stun on break if they have any sense.

Against crap geared people that spec is powerful, people in even gear won't let you chain cast or proc anything, they just stomp your face off.

 

This is what I've been saying all along. Well said.

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George Lucas has already said that Anakin had roughly twice the force potential as Palpatine but after his duel with Obi-Wan he was left with about 80% of the potential as Palpatine. Luke on the other hand has the same force potential as his father before the injuries per Lucas.

 

But what would Lucas know. He only created the Star Wars Universe...

 

Seeing that Palpatine is about as strong as you can get without being "born of the force" or Anakin's son?

 

Pretty safe to say Luke became the most powerful character in the Star Wars Universe EVER. BTW at the time Anakin got halved? He would have never beat the emperor.

 

Just because at one time Vader was stronger then Luke and Luke may have said Anakin/Vader was at that point in the story stronger, doesn't mean Luke didn't become stupidly more powerful later on. Want to argue with someone about it? Take it up with Lucas. Reading comprehension fail and taking things out of context fail.

 

GG...

 

Anakin Solo is a direct descendant of Anakin Skywalker. And Luke himself said that Anakin Solo was more powerful than himself. And Lucas approved all of NJO, so GG again.

 

 

EDIT: Oh I read your post again, and you think I mean Anaking Skywalker. But I am talking about Leia and Han's third son, Anakin Solo. BTW, Jacen and Jaine were also both direct descendants of Anakin Skywalker. Thanks for thinking my reading comprehension fails though big buddy.

Edited by TetraCleric
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They're a melee class. They don't need an escape. Escapes are for ranged classes.

 

Except for Assassins and Operatives. PTs pull enemies into them and I'm guessing that's why they don't have an escape. Juggernauts get Force Push.

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So you're saying to counter a Sorcerer's CC you need another Sorcerer's CC? Well I'll definitely be trying that out. I can't believe I never thought of it. We all roll Sorcerers so that Sorcerer CC isn't as impossible to deal with. While we're at it let's just petition Bioware to remove all other ACs from the game. Someone might accidentally pick something other than a Sorcerer.

 

/sarcasm

 

^ Sorry. Had to be done so I could have my lulz. :)

 

In all seriousness in a group scenario the side with more Sorcerers wins. You said it yourself. If a Sorcerer is mass CCing you then you need a Sorcerer yourself to counteract it. Three Sorcerers against One Sorcerer and Two other DPS usually ends up being the Three Sorcerers winning. In large scale battles a Sorcerer provides more than any other class for the group. In tactical PvP Sorcerer mobility and CC wins games. They're simply the best PvP class. With the two talent's I'm campaigning against they're just the best at everything by an incredible margin.

 

Do you really think that if hybrid Sorcerers lost access to a 5 second root on knockback and a 3 second AoE immobilize on a bubble pop/click off they would be underpowered? No. They would still be the best PvP class, just not by such a gigantic margin. What I'm asking for would simply bring them down to Earth. They're currently miles ahead of everyone.

 

The big thing that people seem to be ignoring is exactly what I'm asking for with this post.

 

Not a single person since this thread's creation has given reasons for why this specific change I'm requesting is too much.

 

Not a single person has given me reasons as to why hybrid spec Sorcerers NEED these two talents.

 

Not a single person has explained why these two specific talents are balanced. When no other AoE root exists on such a low cooldown. When no other AoE mezz comes close to the power of "Backlash".

 

I want someone to explain to me how an AoE mezz that comes from a pre-castable bubble on a 20 second cooldown for self cast is balanced in a game where the closest thing is a 1.5 minute cooldown AoE mezz on a class with no other fire and forget CC. I want someone to explain how having this same AoE mezz be triggered by casting a bubble on SOMEONE ELSE(this has a cooldown of 4.5 seconds) is balanced. Explain why Sorcerers NEED this.

 

For those of you that STILL haven't fully read the main post the two talents I'm talking about are "Backlash" and "Electric Bindings". If you haven't already, please read it.

 

So much Facepalm in your post shows me that you simply don't know how to play...

 

1) Sorcerer Mass-CC? Never heard of that since Sorc can only single-target CC compared to other classes which have AoE-CC. Unless you mean bubble/force-wave stun, but that would mean you and your team just bash on the same target with 2+ melee cars even though they have the bubble on themselves and the cooldown of Force-Wave is finished, but that would be stupid, so it can't be that... right?

2) I didn't say you need Sorc-CC to counter Sorc-CC, but removing it with a dispell of the Sorc and since PvP in SWTOR is team-based, there is no Problem with that.

3) Bubble only Stuns Targets near the Sorc, so don't try to pressure a sorc down with 4 Melee at a time.

4) Sorcerers badly need stuff to counter spike-DMG, such as the bubble-stun, since they have almost no healing-potential in under 1 Second. SO while DMG can be dished out with instants that easily deal 2500+ DMG (by 6 ppl in a balanced team with about 2 Healers), the Sorc can heal 1500 after 1.5 Seconds: Do you see the Problem with Sorc not being able to deal ANY burstheal? Probably not, cuz you don't want to see it.

5) Sorcs are the main target most of the times and with constant slow/Interrupts/CC/Stuns by the opponent, it's crucial to have at least 1 Sorc in the team with bubble-stun, just so the Sorc can MAYBE get out 1 Heal on itself, but with decent Ranged-DD's that actually use their very powerful interrupts, this will of course also be interrupted, so even the Stun on the knockback (which ends with DMG after 2 Seconds btw.) is in no way, shape or form OP.

6) As I've said: a decent Support-Player will be able to remove the Stun/CC very easily

7) It's also quite easy to chain-Stun or preemptively CC a sorc before/during a spike so the bubble cannot be placed on the target - simple way to remove ANY burstheal possible by the Sorc.

8) It's also almost impossible to get a decent Skill-build of the Sorc which has access to both bubble-stun and the reduced Might-Cost and Cooldown of the bubble and also heave good Mana-Management: Just switch targets fast and the Sorc will run out of Mana casting bubbles like crazy.

9) the bubble has a lockdown-duration of at least 17 Seconds with the right gear on any target, that means 17 Seconds of NO bubble once it's gone. Switch targets with Melee once the bubble is cast and snipe the bubble away with Ranged-DD, this should take 1-2 Seconds; now you have a target that cannot be protected by the bubble, which limits the burst-heal/prot potential of a Sorc to pretty much Zero. This is the reason why a Sorc should NEVER preemptively bubble a player, but only targets that are getting spiked and are as close to death as possible, so you can heal the target up. This bubble during the Spike can be dealt with be good target-picking, CC/Stun/Knockback etc. Even if the bubble gets on the target during the spike though, ranged DD's should easily be able to dish out enough DMG to kill the target in a well-orchestrated spike.

 

Srsly: I wish ppl would think a bit about the potential of teamplay and how to play smart before they start ranting.

Edited by kickinhead
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A hybrid is mobile. A mobile class does not need an AoE mezz like that. A mobile class doesn't need that on top of what they already have.

 

Anyone is mobile. I'm missing your point. Are you talking about force speed? All sorc/sages get it. Also assasin/shadows get it. As I stated already, melee classes have a way to close the distance. A Sorc/sage can't fly over to targets like a mara/sent can.

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Except for Assassins and Operatives. PTs pull enemies into them and I'm guessing that's why they don't have an escape. Juggernauts get Force Push.

 

Assassins and Ops are totally different beasts whos classes are built on stealth. Not close to the same thing. PTs and Jugs don't have escapes.

 

The point of this isn't really to discuss force camo as I honestly have no problem with it. But, when you go down the line of logic you've taken, there is no need for that escape skill for a class as devastatingly powerful as mara/sent.

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PS: What server are you playing on, cause like, I never see you and stuff.

 

Hedaar soongh or some backwater server like that. I want to roll a toon on fatman. Worth it?

 

[ ] yes

[ ] no

[ ] maybe

[ ] only interested in making out by the monkey bars

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