I have no idea how you can read what he typed out and start trashing him for it. All of what he said is straight up truth. I urge anyone who has not played a juggernaut or is on the fence about playing one to read said post because it will describe 90% of your game play experience both leveling and at 50. You might have the good odd match here or there against super under geared people or some lowbies. But in reality the juggernaut is so gimped it makes me sad. All the promises of buffing the survivability of the class...and then 1.2 gets here...nothing. I played this class to enjoy the role of someone powerful and threatening, not to be the weakest class in the game whose only role in pvp is taunt bot and free kill.

Hey all thanks for posting! Haven't been back to this topic in a couple days and was happy to see so many replies. One thing I would like to point out follows from the post above. I noticed that some were against my asking for melee to practically immune to cc if not very resistant to it. The reason I made such a statement is pretty much summed up in Tekaru's quote. I could understand if once a melee character got up to you and hit you three times you died...then massive cc would be appropriate. And I would have no complaints. However, as things are right now, we simply do not have the dmg needed to take down a target within just a couple of hits before another cc is applied and ranged can run off heal/reset the fight/get more distance/etc. That right there is a problem. If a ranged class's combined self buffing, CC, and healing all come together and create a high enough true armor class that melee cannot down within a very short amount of time while engaged, then there is no need for Massive CC. Simply because it is overcompensation for a threat that is mediocre at best. Such overcompensation really hurts melee classes, Sith Warriors and Jedi Knights especially. It's just a matter of balancing the level of melee classes' CC immunity, with the actual threat they provide. And not giving range a blanket amount of coverage that completely overcompensates for said melee. Now I know a lot of people might jump on this and say, "What?! You want ranged classes to just be a free kill as soon as you touch them?!" To that i would say, absolutely not. I actually enjoy the chase when it's balanced. But when I get rooted and blown up with no chance to compete, it rubs me the wrong way. Hence why what i am asking for is a balance. I don't expect to kill you within three hits when i get up to you. But at the same time, you shouldn't expect to make me completely immobile and useless within three button presses. Something that seems to be widely accepted as "working as intended" for ranged classes in MMOs. It's time to make a change.

Well said both of you. To me the worst part about all the grandstanding, is that it's deceptive to people interested in finding out what the class is really like before they play it. When I post on forums, my main goal is to give the most honest feedback on a class so someone who has never played it before gets a fair assessment of what they are going to experience. It doesn't do anybody any good if you go on and on about how amazing your class is when in reality they don't hold a candle to their counterparts. It's misleading and downright rude. Now I don't care if you love/hate the "feel" of the class. That part is completely subjective. Personally i friggin LOVE melee classes like the JK, and it's why i am so passionate about them getting buffed. But I'm under no delusions of grandeur when it comes to what these warriors and knights can do from a hard coded game mechanics stand point. Game mechanics aren't open to opinion, they are what they are. And for the JK and Sith warrior classes, those mechanics are severely limited when compared to every other class in the game save for poor snipers lol. I think this is where people get confused. They mix up how they "feel" about a class with how a class actually operates in comparison to others. Once again, the former is subjective, the later is not. No matter how much skill you have, your knight has his limits, and those limits are well below the other classes.

Nope sorry to say at lvl 50 it's the same. You scale like crap and still can't do anything like other classes. You have a bunch of built in mechanics that don't work and it's even more apparent at 50. For example...you know that awesome Force power stat on all your gear? yeah it only effects force attacks. That's it. It does nothing to the 99% of your dmg that is melee based. The worst part is that all the gear has that force junk on it so it's a big fat waste and takes up valuable space that could be used for added strength or endurance. Meanwhile other classes like mercs and what not gain the full advantage of high tech power bonuses along with aim and endurance.

Dude thank you, that was a fantastic post highlighting the differences we have been talking about over and over. I hope that everyone that comes to these forums trying to decide whether to roll an JK or not reads it.

You know what I hate the most? Nowadays everyone tries to make EVERYTHING a matter of opinion. Sorry no, not everything is subjective. That's a very immature/wish washy attitude to take towards life. If after reading all the material we brought forth, still think we are just being subjective, here is an EASY way to find out. Go make a Jedi Knight, get to your mid twenties, and fight stuff your level. You will be subject to the exact same standard that others and I have talked about. Your opinion will completely moot unless you can prove otherwise and show you are the exception to the standard. Heck go play a friends knight or sith warrior if you don't feel like making one, and take on some even level content past lvl 25. See how it works out and if we are just talking from a "subjective" angle.

Scarlet did you just ignore this part? I can understand where you are coming from because you haven't played a Jedi Knight. But why Drasken is calling him a liar (rightfully so) is because he is in support of something that is simply not possible and claiming it's just because I specifically am bad. If find it humorous that you made a name calling post DEFENDING a guy who had nothing to add to this discussion but call me bad. After all that time I put into responding to your post in others in a nice calm manner. Anyways let me put this in terms you'll understand. If i claimed that i could take on 5 equal level elites one after another with no help whatsoever and not break a sweat on my jedi shadow...would you call bs and ask for a video? Of course you would. Well as a guy who friggin loves the class and has played it to death let me tell you this. As outrageous as that example was? A Jedi Knight has the same chances of chaining a group of equal strongs and minions over and over again post 25 WITHOUT massive downtime ,waiting on CD's, and stimming himself into a coma, that an shadow does killing 5 elites at the same time. THAT is why we are asking for a video. Cause it's simply not possible. And please don't take this post as us asking for our class to become demi gods...we just want to be able to solo content as well as other classes do WITHOUT relying on a bunch of external help.

Here man let me give you an honest perspective. As a sentinel you will do "ok". You won't be stellar by any means or topping the charts without some serious work or a lucky match with no Sorcs or Sages. You simply lack compotent CC and a way to get back to the fight when you are taken out of it. You are extremely Cooldown based with long timers and use a very goofy/unefficient chain of attacks. Most of the time you will be looking at your keyboard trying to figure out what to press while people are spamming chain lightning and tracer missle at you. In fact I can tell you that even my gimpy Juggernaut can fight an equally geared sent, beat him silly, have him immediately come back to me after a respawn, and beat him down again before i have the chance to heal. None of this has anything to do with that Sentinels skill level, he could be friggin awesome and chain all his cds PERFECTLY, but with how class mechanics work he'll still get rolfstomped by constant cc, ranged attacks, and just plain being squishy. Some people manage to make it work, but ask yourself this..."Do I want to spend countless hours perfecting my class and gearing it up, to simply be on par with an average player of any other class?" If not just roll something else. Cause sentinels/marauders as they are now? Too much work for too little gain :/

Gosh darnet number 3! How do you get out of my post

exactly

THIS Let me ask you a question...what other class has a power that is spammable, gives a resource net gain, does good dmg, AND applies CC slows? If you consider such a power hunky dorey and fair. Then you got me stumped and I've got nothing more to say.

I think you are missing out on what I am saying. The Sand Demon fight was an example. The video that we are asking for is this: Anyone from lvl 25-50, show themselves in an even level fight against of 1 or more strongs along with his group of minions. In your video show your rotation, self buffing techniques, and gear that allows you to successfully chain group after group and NOT leave the initial fight with less than half your health and have to rest before taking on another group. Put bluntly you cannot. That's what me and the other posters were trying to say. We will be more than happy to be proven wrong by some one who shows they can with a video, hence why we asked for one. Until then with the way mechanics work for with warriors and knights, it's impossible. Other classes can face similar situations and just chain mobs ALL DAY LONG. That's what we are taking issue with. We simply want to be brought in line with the other classes. Such disparity is detrimental to pvp and pve. We want to have the same chance to excel at content, and not stumble through it either over leveled or half dead.

And for all those harping all over how whirlwind breaks immediately on dmg. listen close here... NO IT DOESN'T. After having it used against me time and time again sometimes you get stuck as the game engine tries to reset your animation. You don't get whirlwinded and as soon as dmg comes *BOOP* pop out of it. Often times i am rooted long enough for him to get his entire lighting cast off. Stop regurgitating tooltips and listen to what people the actual power is used against are saying in game. And resolve? Lmao resolve is broke. Everyone knows that. You can still get affected with a full bar because for whatever reason the computations the game engine is doing at the moment aren't caught up yet.

Exactly! I don't see how people are glossing over the insane amount of control, and the time other classes are trapped in it. As a melee I simply cannot do ANYTHING to you when i am held off at range. So even if you put put "mediocre" DPS, by the time i finally get to when i can lay down some dmg...most of my health bar is gone. Now look...I would have a not problem with this if once i got to you, i could blow your face up. BUT to make matters worse, you can bubble and defend against my attacks, while simultaneously dpsing down the last of my hp, or just CC me again and run of to reset the fight! Look how you have just completely side stepped your class "weakness." I don't see how one can even attempt to rationalize that such a situation is fair and balanced.

Scarlet lol. Do these quotes make it sound like they had any difficulty during their fight or while leveling? I think not. In fact Caelic even said the boss fight was easy. And PLEASE, you really think haven't thought of gearing up their companion? Lmao good try. The whole point has been other classes don't have jump through such hoops to just leave even level fights with a couple strongs half dead, unless they run around with a healer companion. And yes anyone who is 26+ and claims they do such even with top gear for them and their companion needs to post a video. Because with the way game mechanics are, no matter your "skill" it's simply not possible. Heck if that was the case most sith warriors wouldn't be asking for help on class quest where on tattoine, where you fight that old jedi and his padawan at the same time ALONE. Try taking them both on by yourself at the same time/level and see what happens...My assassin could handle that fight easy if he had to. My uber geared sith warrior? Lmao nope. Here i will save you the trouble and give you the following responses to this post: 1. Well maybe you just need to L2P better! 2. Maybe people are just better than you? 3. You Prolly just suck so shut up NEWB! 4. I have never had any problems so L2P 5. Well my guildie has done everything you are talking about WITH EASE and he is super cute! Therefore you are wrong and need to L2P. 6. you probably just use the same rotation over and over again because you're too stupid to think of another. 7. your gear sucks 8. your companion choice/gear/hairstyle sucks 9. USE STIMS AND MEDPACKS GENIUS! That should cover it TL : DR blah blah blah still need a video sorry.

Ok so after being part of the original thread, and reading this entire new thread I see one reoccurring/dominant argument made in favor of Socs being working as intended. "Well, once you interrupt them they can't do anything and become uber vunerable." So two questions: 1. If i am a melee character with an interrupt that only works when I am in melee range, how am i supposed to interrupt you when i am chain CC'D/slowed at range? (btw I've already hit my CC break skill) 2. Once I get to you and interrupt force lighting, do you seriously have nothing else you can do to create distance, defend yourself, or dmg me with?

oh also thanks to Onstorm. Keep up the good fight man

Dude THANK YOU to you and the poster below you. Trust me, post lvl 40 same lvl mobs still roflstomp your health. And don't even think about taking that lvl 43 elite who is your same level without all your CD's... It's exactly as you said, if you are over level 25 and insisting you are taking on equal level mobs with a strong in it and not coming out with half your hp, your are straight up lying. No amount of mmo "skill" you bring to the party is going to change game mechanics. Hence why i call BS on everyone claiming they just BURN through same level content and elites with no problems at all. And to the girl who keeps insisting that just because i can't do something doesn't mean other people can? You are correct to an extent, but not when it comes to staight up surpassing built in broken game mechanics. There is no way your friend just walked up in there and blasted the Sand Demon apart at -2 levels without any trouble or losing all his health, or completely sacrificing his companion. My point along with everyone here who has problems with the class, is that no other class has to go to such lengths to beat content. Right now i dropped my jugger for an assassin and he is absolutely DESTROYING content that left my jugger crippled and healing. Like the man said, you want to prove us wrong? Post a video.

Was it really not that obvious I was just pointing out the he would have to dope himself a ton with stims, buffs, and relics? Sigh...you know what? I give up. Every time I try to post something informative, trying to bring melee into line with other classes. People just say "nope L2P." Look guys the class is certainly playable but it has a lot of weaknesses that the game exploits both in pvp and pve. Other classes have their own built in weaknesses but they easily skirt around most of them with a plethora of useful abilities and talents. I simply want a pure melee class FOR ONCE in an mmo to enjoy the same weakness sidestepping that the other classes always seem to enjoy. For those of you who are feeling the non melee love...regardless what people on here tell you it's not in your head, or because you suck. It's what happens when MMO developers just copy and paste classes from one game to another. The same gimp melee over and over again. As for the "everybody just sucks" cause I am doing fine crowd? Have a nice time in game, and honestly i am glad that you are at least enjoying the game. Cheers

I actually made a thread on the issues melee have. Check it out for stuff to add: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=293979

I think you are missing the point of the post. Look at the advice you just gave...you have to pop EVERY FRIGGIN CD you have to beat a lousy strong and two normals. Add to on top of that hide in soresu completely gimping your dps and rely on your companion to get a job done that you should be able to handle by yourself. Then you say it's working as intended. Here is the kicker: No other class has to blow everything to deal with a simple mob or even a same level elite. Do assassins or powertechs (who also have tanking trees) have to blow everything? Not at all. Do they have most of their defenses tied up in Active button pressing? Nope. Do they need to rely on a 20 MINUTE CD to take on some tougher elites? Never. That's the point. The class is gimped and NOT working as intended when compared to the other classes with tanking trees. Yes it's "possible" to deal with all the class quest. I have a lvl 45 Juggernaugt and have NEVER had to repeat a class quest. But does that mean they were easy? No. I was popping all my CD's left and right and healing myself like crazy after battles wasting time. Meanwhile my assassin buddy hardly ever had to stop. And when would quest together on world missions? Same story even though he was -4 levels under me and equal to the NPC's. No class is designed to be inefficient. And having to blow long CD's on every other fight when no other class has to? Certainly not an argument for working as intended. TL : DR Other classes don't have to blow every CD to get the job done. What you might see as an "easy" time during level would seem like trying to count all the sand on the beach to other classes.

I do not doubt that your friend is good but what you are posting is misleading. There is no way he took on the Sand Demon with no problems without out leveling it by a signifigant amount. If he was a pure defensive spec he would not have enough dmg to last the fight and his defenses would be torn to shreds. If he was a DPS spec he would lack the defenses needed to take on such a hard hitting opponent. And if he was a hybrid he would suffer from both weaknesses. So maybe he ate a bunch of stims and health packs before the fight? No other class has to rely on such tactics. I played both a Jedi guardian and a Sith Jugg. I remember that quest specifically and it's mirror quest on the sith side. I was about 3-4 levels over the sand demon when i fought in in all blue and orange gear and he STILL left me half dead before the fight was over. And Hizoka there is a big difference in a class requiring work to be good and a class requiring hard work to be mediocre. Jedi Guardians / Sith Juggernauts fall into that later category. Like i said before in my previous post, they are the only class in the game that has to out level content by 4-5 levels in order to quest effectively. No other class has such a glaring limitation. Knights are in no way complicated to play, they are simply inefficient. 1.They have no self heals to substain them in fights. 2. For a class with no self heal their "heavy armor" is effective as cloth 3. Almost every form of cc or stun they have only works on weak/standard targets. A HUGE problem that adds to their already squishy existance. 4. A resource mechanic that makes you start most fights on an empty tank. ( though i will say this, i don't mind rage because once it gets going, properly managed you can keep going and going. But compared to other classes that start at full and just keep going it's detrimental) 5. Extremely long CDs that are never up when you need them, or you wind up never using them because you are saving your CDs for that "one" elite that might show up. 6. Way too many buttons to press for attack/defensive chains. This is not a testament to the skill it takes to play the class but detrimental when trying to actually fight, ESPECIALLY in pvp. 7. And lets not forget the biggest downside. Being in melee range and being forced to eat any and all dmg that comes your way unless a CD is up. Other classes can stun or slowing things from range, giving them the best form of mitigation...not being hit. Jedi knights? Nope, taking it to the face all day with no tools to recover. The list goes on an on but you get the gist of it. It's a melee class with all risks and no gain. And sadly it's still one whose play style I love...I just wish they would fix them

I really don't see how you can lump an entire group of people together and call them, lazy, undergeared, poorly spec'd, etc, and act like it's all hunky dory. How on earth do you know all of this? How do you know they are lazy? How do you know what their gear is like? That's why I take offense to your post and others like it. Because anytime someone post about an issue or complains about a class, you insist in YOUR perception that everything is ok so they must all suck. How do you not see yourself making sweeping generalizations? Man the thing you are complaining about all over the board? You know the way people just make facts up? Yeah you are doing the same thing to the ENTIRE PLAYER BASE. This goes beyond you agreeing with me on the OP's point to just showing some common courtesy and respect to your fellows.

Look at what you are saying and how you are wording it..."obvious balances". Your post implies that the things that you suggest are SUPER simple to do. Yet everyone who is on this forum or in the game complaining about this hybrid spec has been too stupid to figure it out. A completely cynical assumption of the "low" intelligence of most players, while simultaneously stroking your own ego. All you are doing is saying, "I am smart and you are dumb" over and over again. Come back to the thread when you have something positive to add.

Hey look guys! Another "everybody sucks and I am great" post! Please kind sir...your brilliance is too much for 90% of the game playing population to understand. Obviously no one has ever tried out other tactics or avoiding the cc entirely. Only one of you aptitude and leet skills could achieve such a feat. Please master keyboard warrior I implore you...don't shine so brightly that you blind us all!