No, You May Not Roll on Items for Another Class and Strip Out the Mods

[ispanolfw]

The onus is on the player who intends to steal gear from a group member. If that player says "Hey, I'm going to need on gear that I can't use, is that cool?" and everyone's cool... cool. If theat player doesn't say that, and needs on something his character can't use, but a group member can, then it's insta-kick/ignore/blacklist with guild and alliances. I wouldn't personally call someone out on General for it, but I've seen it done, and have noted the person being called out as a ninja looter.

 

So, if you want to find groups and have a reputation as a stand-up player, don't ninja. If you want a reputation as a ninja looter, that's your doing.

 

False, theft implies prior ownership. No member of the group owns that item until it hits their inventory. The system gives everyone the same fair chance to roll, that's just how it is. If you want something different, YOU need to speak up. Is this that hard to understand? If the system was designed to suit your opinions on how things would work, then you might have a point, but it doesn't.

 

Yes, YOU, as the person wanting something different than what the game provides, has the responsibility to speak up, or deal with it if not. If you're the leader, state your rules, and get rid of those who don't agree. If you're not the leader and the others don't agree, leave.

[Revenaught]

And the person I quoted is a troll, by definition. They posted to disagree with me just to disagree, without having any facts, discounting my position without offering a counter, then saying they didn't really belong in the thread anyway. That is actually the definition of a troll. It is not a word I use lightly, but that person with the green text is seriously trolling.

 

So your the only one allowed an opinion the? Disagreeing with someone is not trolling. I offered just as many hard facts as you did. All you are doing by so stridently trying to label me a troll is;

a. Weaken your own position.

b. Prove I was right to want nothing to do with you in game.

 

I assure you if I am seriously trying to troll you, you and everyone else here will know it. What I am merely doing is disagreeing with your grandiose claims of overwhelming majority.

[face_hindu]

And as to one of your other posts, yes Need and Greed are very widely interpreted. Still doesn't give you the right to force your interpretation on another.

 

I'm going to say this one more time, and I'm not going to respond to any more idiocy:

 

It's not just MY interpretation.

 

Go ahead and be a thieving, conniving, greedy, inconsiderate little griefing ninja looting noob. That's what you are if you steal gear from someone in your group, who probably just carried your bad self through that FP so that you can look pretty in your orange gear.

 

Nothing you can say will make me become a little thief. If you want to steal people's gear and act like a huge knob, go join some cross-server groups in WoW.

[Halinalle]

False, theft implies prior ownership. No member of the group owns that item until it hits their inventory. The system gives everyone the same fair chance to roll, that's just how it is. If you want something different, YOU need to speak up. Is this that hard to understand? If the system was designed to suit your opinions on how things would work, then you might have a point, but it doesn't.

 

Like it isn't already way too difficult to get upgraded gear as a heavy armor user. Then there is light armor user who only wants the item so he/she can sell it.

[teddy_bear]

I'm going to say this one more time, and I'm not going to respond to any more idiocy:

 

It's not just MY interpretation.

 

Go ahead and be a thieving, conniving, greedy, inconsiderate little griefing ninja looting noob. That's what you are if you steal gear from someone in your group, who probably just carried your bad self through that FP so that you can look pretty in your orange gear.

 

Nothing you can say will make me become a little thief. If you want to steal people's gear and act like a huge knob, go join some cross-server groups in WoW.

 

I agree with this statement, people who roll on gear that isn't for their class are pretty much the scum of gaming.

[ispanolfw]

I'm going to say this one more time, and I'm not going to respond to any more idiocy:

 

It's not just MY interpretation.

 

Go ahead and be a thieving, conniving, greedy, inconsiderate little griefing ninja looting noob. That's what you are if you steal gear from someone in your group, who probably just carried your bad self through that FP so that you can look pretty in your orange gear.

 

Nothing you can say will make me become a little thief. If you want to steal people's gear and act like a huge knob, go join some cross-server groups in WoW.

 

And? Majority, Minority, neither of those are ALL. You could have 99/100 people on your side, and that doesn't give you any right to force that last person to do it your way if they disagree.

 

I've said before in this thread and others. I don't roll on everything. I have that right to do so, but I don't. I typically look at the competition and see if they can use it more. But I STILL understand how the system ACTUALLY works and don't push my view of how it SHOULD work on others. And you STILL use the words thief/theft/steal/stolen when they don't belong. If I somehow take an item OUT OF YOUR INVENTORY, then you can call it stealing. Also, I never said you had to agree and do it the bare minimum within the given loot system. Just that if your view differs from the system, you should be the one to speak up.

 

So really, learn what the words you use REALLY mean. And also learn what people are really asking here. We're not trying to force you to roll on everything, we're saying don't try and make others do it your way.

[Eldren]

I'm going to say this one more time, and I'm not going to respond to any more idiocy:

 

It's not just MY interpretation.

 

Go ahead and be a thieving, conniving, greedy, inconsiderate little griefing ninja looting noob. That's what you are if you steal gear from someone in your group, who probably just carried your bad self through that FP so that you can look pretty in your orange gear.

 

Nothing you can say will make me become a little thief. If you want to steal people's gear and act like a huge knob, go join some cross-server groups in WoW.

 

You'd be hilarious in an actual in-person debate with formal debate rules. You'd be torn to shreds so fast I'd be worried you'd need a change of underwear.

 

You're setting up a series of default ad hominem attacks by immediately stating anyone who doesn't agree with your interpretation or preferred playstyle is somehow lacking, or any of the (sad, uncreative and subintelligent) things you called them in the post I quoted. You resort to ad hominem attacks on people when you can't refute their statements, and ad populum arguments because you can't formulate a cohesive argument on your own. You're doing far more disservice to yourself than anything else.

 

You want to point to a single thread (a thread where you indicated you actually stopped reading at one point, invaliding the logical integrity of any references you make to said thread's comments as a backing for your position) as evidence that you represent a "vast majority"? That's a pitifully assailable position from which to launch your (feeble) counterattack.

 

Explain how someone rolling on something is "stealing"? You can only steal something from someone if they own that thing, and no one owns a piece of loot until it's in their inventory; it doesn't go in their inventory until they win the roll. As a result, no one is stealing anything from anyone. So there's your primary point handily torn to shreds with a minimum of effort.

 

Players don't get to determine for other players what is or isn't acceptable as far as their gear goals. If someone wants things for the aesthetics, that is a priority for them, and you don't get to tell them "I don't acknowledge that priority, so you can't treat it as one." They were there in the run, they helped down the boss, they have as much right as you (or anyone else on that run) to roll on a drop using whatever priority roll they'd like. I think you're just throwing a temper tantrum because you want to control how someone else plays, and you realize in some deep, withered, undeveloped, infantile portion of your psyche that you can't, and it's causing a short in your emotional response mechanisms. You're literally experiencing cognitive dissonance: you have one part of your mind telling you one thing that another part of your mind can't accept, attempts to rationalize away, fails, and then responds with emotion when logic can't cut it.

[Ronamo]

Players don't get to determine for other players what is or isn't acceptable as far as their gear goals. If someone wants things for the aesthetics, that is a priority for them, and you don't get to tell them "I don't acknowledge that priority, so you can't treat it as one." They were there in the run, they helped down the boss, they have as much right as you (or anyone else on that run) to roll on a drop using whatever priority roll they'd like.

 

Multiple people have stated to you that they disagree with your loot philosophy over the course of this thread, and you've insisted to each that they had no right to expect others to follow their loot philosophy.

 

Whence then stems the ability to require them to accept or follow yours, or at the very least the execution thereof if not the spirit of the practice, outside of the fact that opposition to yours cannot be enforced within the available mechanics, while opposition to theirs is as simple as choosing to press the "need" button instead of the "greed" button?

 

For the sake of discussion, in a hypothetical situation in which a group could collectively vote down a "need" roll that did not correspond to a character with the matching maximum armor weight class and primary stat, where would you base your argument?

[Eldren]

Multiple people have stated to you that they disagree with your loot philosophy over the course of this thread, and you've insisted to each that they had no right to expect others to follow their loot philosophy.

 

Whence then stems the ability to require them to accept or follow yours, or at the very least the execution thereof if not the spirit of the practice, outside of the fact that opposition to yours cannot be enforced within the available mechanics, while opposition to theirs is as simple as choosing to press the "need" button instead of the "greed" button?

 

For the sake of discussion, in a hypothetical situation in which a group could collectively vote down a "need" roll that did not correspond to a character with the matching maximum armor weight class and primary stat, where would you base your argument?

 

The argument is based in a simple reality: players don't get to determine how other players equip themselves. The system supports a given player's ability to equip themselves (or make moves to equip themselves) via whatever priority they personally ascribe to: if for looks, they'll roll Need on an item whose aesthetics meets their desire, if on stats, on items that meet their stat requirements, if on companions, on items that will best upgrade a companion they use, and if on credits, then on an item that will yield the most credits via either the GTN or a vendor, depending on available sale options.

 

I don't see a scenario where a group can vote on a given member's loot priority save an informal agreement (and the assumption of acquiescence to it) established beforehand. In short, while it makes for fun discussion, it isn't particularly germane to this discussion. This discussion centers primarily around someone who rolled Need on an item ostensibly not for their character with the intent of taking a mod from said item to upgrade themselves. Over time it's come to move back to the general companion need roll argument, and attempts to moralize away personally undesirable choices by those who realize a moralist argument is their only hope of conceivably convincing someone to their side of things.

 

One can't force anyone to accept a differing point of view in this game. If you have a player who accepts a given loot distribution scheme in an informal arrangement, and then acts contrary to that arrangement at a later point, they're likely to be removed from the group. They understood the risks in lying to their compatriots, they should be willing to accept whatever consequences arise from their deception. Likewise, however, they aren't forcing other players to accept something not already provided for as a default in the game if they choose Need on an item that others think they shouldn't have: they're making use of the system as it's obviously intended to work, it merely remains that others don't like its application in a given scenario. But those players were (or should have been) perfectly aware that when it all boiled down, the only enforceable loot distribution rules in the game are Need rolls taking priority over Greed rolls. A player can't be faulted for making use of the same opportunities everyone else has, even if others voluntarily chose not to make use of those opportunities due to personal moral convictions.

 

That's the consequence of choosing a lower priority roll for an item you actually want. If you want it, you should roll Need. Other players aren't in a position to determine the validity of your want. If you roll Greed, you're saying you may want it, but not as badly as someone who rolls Need, and you thus have no reason to be upset if someone beats you because they actually rolled in a method that would supersede your own in priority.

 

With differing goals on an individual level as relates to gearing up, you require a system that sits in authority and judgment over those individual goals, and Need Before Greed does that. It isn't as simple as Roll/Pass, but it serves its purpose quite well nonetheless: it prevents individual players from forcing another player to not take something they want.

[DarthKhaos]

And I always wondered why people called World of Warcraft MMOs for kids. Because they had to implement a system to enforce something grown people should understand at this point in their lives.

 

If your class can't use it you can't roll need. Doesn't matter if it's bind on pickup or bind or equip. IF YOUR CLASS CAN'T USE IT YOU CAN'T ROLL NEED!

 

Silly me thought people who play Star Wars the Old Republic was more mature and considerate of other players that they would ask if it is ok to roll need on an item their class can't use for X or Y reason. To not roll need when someone who is contributing to the success of the flashpoint needs that item as an upgrade to further assist in the success of the flashpoint.

 

It is not about entitlement. It's about interacting with another individual in a respectful, considerate manner. The funny thing is most people have no problem you rolling on the item once you ask. In some cases the person who the item is an upgrade for decides to let you have it because it may be a small upgrade or he/she won a couple items already. This happens when you ask. When you act like an adult and not like a spoiled child with a box of toys trying to horde it all.

[Templeman]

I don't mind someone rolling need for something they need to improve themselves. I always thought of greed as more of the polite option.

[ispanolfw]

And I always wondered why people called World of Warcraft MMOs for kids. Because they had to implement a system to enforce something grown people should understand at this point in their lives.

 

If your class can't use it you can't roll need. Doesn't matter if it's bind on pickup or bind or equip. IF YOUR CLASS CAN'T USE IT YOU CAN'T ROLL NEED!

 

Silly me thought people who play Star Wars the Old Republic was more mature and considerate of other players that they would ask if it is ok to roll need on an item their class can't use for X or Y reason. To not roll need when someone who is contributing to the success of the flashpoint needs that item as an upgrade to further assist in the success of the flashpoint.

 

It is not about entitlement. It's about interacting with another individual in a respectful, considerate manner. The funny thing is most people have no problem you rolling on the item once you ask. In some cases the person who the item is an upgrade for decides to let you have it because it may be a small upgrade or he/she won a couple items already. This happens when you ask. When you act like an adult and not like a spoiled child with a box of toys trying to horde it all.

 

Except it was flawed in WoW. A Mage couldn't roll on a plate piece, yet the plate wearer could actually roll on the robe. Maturity? Really? Saying someone else isn't allowed to do something because you say they aren't is mature? Ie saying someone can't roll on something for looks because this other guy wants it for other reasons. That's not maturity, that's entitlement. Yes, entitlement. Feeling that one person should get it over another in ANY way is entitlement. I'm not advocating that at all, i'm advocating everyone has... yes HAS, not SHOULD have an equal chance at rolling. This isn't my opinion, it's how the system as it stands, works.

 

My views on it are irrelevant, as are yours or anyone elses. It works the way it works. If you want it differently, you say so before the run. It really IS that simple. Because if you don't, or the people who disagree with the system as it stands don't. Well, then, the others who accept the system as is have no way to know you feel differently.

[LogicalPremise]

There isn't a discussion going on here.

 

Need how you like. If you need in a manner the rest of the group you are in feels is inappropiate, they have every right to kick/ban you.

 

If people have no right to "demand" you loot how they wish, then certain consequences must result. As I had to explain to someone today who pulled this stunt, "If you wish to need on things for your companion without asking because you feel it is your right, then you need to group with people who think as you do."

 

That's just common courtesy. Those who are saying "I don't need to group with you" can do whatever they wish.

 

However, please spare us all this lengthy argument about what's right and wrong. Bottom line, if you do it, I'll kick you from my group. Some will not. Some will be fine with it. Some will put your name in General as a ninja looter. Some will need on something YOU would like to spite you. Some will be cool with it if you ask first.

 

Who cares?

[ispanolfw]

There isn't a discussion going on here.

 

Need how you like. If you need in a manner the rest of the group you are in feels is inappropiate, they have every right to kick/ban you.

 

If people have no right to "demand" you loot how they wish, then certain consequences must result. As I had to explain to someone today who pulled this stunt, "If you wish to need on things for your companion without asking because you feel it is your right, then you need to group with people who think as you do."

 

That's just common courtesy. Those who are saying "I don't need to group with you" can do whatever they wish.

 

However, please spare us all this lengthy argument about what's right and wrong. Bottom line, if you do it, I'll kick you from my group. Some will not. Some will be fine with it. Some will put your name in General as a ninja looter. Some will need on something YOU would like to spite you. Some will be cool with it if you ask first.

 

Who cares?

 

See that's the thing. You have the one side following the system set forth in the game, then you have the other that have other views on how it should be done. You may or may not, but those with other views often expect the ones not of their view to be the one to speak up. That is the problem, your view is different than the system as is, not theirs. Yet you want THEM to be the one to speak up? People have been advocating setting loot rules prior to the run on both sides. So if one group of people adhere to the system as set in place, and the other group actually feel it should be different, who should be the one to speak up?

 

People can say social or moral rules all they want, but those are just opinion. And still different or a restriction of the system in place. It's much more logical for the one who wants it to be different to speak up rather than those who have no issue with the system as is.

[DarthKhaos]

Except it was flawed in WoW. A Mage couldn't roll on a plate piece, yet the plate wearer could actually roll on the robe. Maturity? Really? Saying someone else isn't allowed to do something because you say they aren't is mature? Ie saying someone can't roll on something for looks because this other guy wants it for other reasons. That's not maturity, that's entitlement. Yes, entitlement. Feeling that one person should get it over another in ANY way is entitlement. I'm not advocating that at all, i'm advocating everyone has... yes HAS, not SHOULD have an equal chance at rolling. This isn't my opinion, it's how the system as it stands, works.

 

My views on it are irrelevant, as are yours or anyone elses. It works the way it works. If you want it differently, you say so before the run. It really IS that simple. Because if you don't, or the people who disagree with the system as it stands don't. Well, then, the others who accept the system as is have no way to know you feel differently.

When was the last time you played WoW. They can't anymore. they look at both Armor class & Stats.

 

No it is not mature to act the way some are talking about "Well the button allows me to roll on it so I'm gonna. I don't care if it's an upgrade for you I WANT!"

That's bratish behavior.

Edited January 29, 2012 by DarthKhaos

[ispanolfw]

When was the last time you played WoW. They can't anymore. they look at both Armor class & Stats.

 

No it is not mature to act the way some are talking about "Well the button allows me to roll on it so I'm gonna. I don't care if it's an upgrade for you I WANT!"

That's bratish behavior.

 

Except the system is setup that way. You may disagree and think that anyone who rolls needs for looks over you for stats is bratish, and yet they see you in the same light when you whine that they shouldn't have rolled. It's not, I don't care if it's an upgrade for you, it's "I want that for something", same as you, and then "and I helped produce it, and we both get the same chance to roll for it" Your want for better stats does not rank higher than someone's want for the look of the item.

 

And you seem to think we all think that we should roll on everything, that is false. There are extremes on both sides. I'm saying the system gives everyone a fair chance to roll. So if someone wants something, they roll. If they want it but want to give others a better chance they can greed or pass. But that's the thing, if they feel the loot should be done differently, they should speak up. Not be silent expecting the people following the system as it works, and then crying foul later on. No one is criticizing you for opinions, morals or whatever. They're criticizing you for trying to push YOURS on THEM. If you say ahead of time that you want it this way, and they agree, feel free to do whatever. They agreed, they broke the agreement, their loss.

 

So answer me why you consider it mature to tell someone they can't roll because YOU feel they shouldn't, when they may see it otherwise? I asked this in the previous post, yet you did not answer, just tried to turn it around and push it on the other side.

Edited January 29, 2012 by ispanolfw

[JaggidEdje]

 

So answer me why you consider it mature to tell someone they can't roll because YOU feel they shouldn't, when they may see it otherwise? I asked this in the previous post, yet you did not answer, just tried to turn it around and push it on the other side.

 

Seriously, this debate is ridiculous. It's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of the definition of the words "need" vs. the definition of the word "want".

 

Need is something you have to have, it's required, can't live without it. Stat upgrades are exactly that. You absolutely CANNOT succeed in the game if you are wearing gear that is significantly lower level than you are, therefore a stat upgrade is a need.

 

Greed, on the other hand, is for things you "want" but could live fine without. In other words, something that isn't a stat upgrade for you, but maybe you like the look of.

 

Everyone arguing that this is an opinion matter, and not cut and dried based on the fact that they may feel they "need" something that isn't an upgrade for them is so greedy that they think "want" and "need" mean the same thing. They are wrong.

[ispanolfw]

Seriously, this debate is ridiculous. It's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of the definition of the words "need" vs. the definition of the word "want".

 

Need is something you have to have, it's required, can't live without it. Stat upgrades are exactly that. You absolutely CANNOT succeed in the game if you are wearing gear that is significantly lower level than you are, therefore a stat upgrade is a need.

 

Greed, on the other hand, is for things you "want" but could live fine without. In other words, something that isn't a stat upgrade for you, but maybe you like the look of.

 

Everyone arguing that this is an opinion matter, and not cut and dried based on the fact that they may feel they "need" something that isn't an upgrade for them is so greedy that they think "want" and "need" mean the same thing. They are wrong.

 

Except that is still an opinion. Many people prioritize looks over stats, you saying only stats are a need is still an opinion. It's also you trying to push what you feel is worthy of "need" on others. Not succeeding of course, but trying for sure. Until BioWare states that that stats come before looks, in their game, then it will always be an opinion. And the system in place doesn't differentiate between why someone may "need" an item. You do, others do, I might even. But the game does not. So if you want something other than what the game provides, speak up before the run. If not, deal with it.

[LasCruces]

So, since the reasons you want the item don't seem to matter to you -- is spite a good enough reason? If you were in my group, I'd roll need on everything since the concept of need/greed seems to be over your head. The system allows anybody to roll need, right? It must be legitimate to do so.

 

False, theft implies prior ownership. No member of the group owns that item until it hits their inventory. The system gives everyone the same fair chance to roll, that's just how it is. If you want something different, YOU need to speak up. Is this that hard to understand? If the system was designed to suit your opinions on how things would work, then you might have a point, but it doesn't.

 

Yes, YOU, as the person wanting something different than what the game provides, has the responsibility to speak up, or deal with it if not. If you're the leader, state your rules, and get rid of those who don't agree. If you're not the leader and the others don't agree, leave.

[areto]

Except that is still an opinion. Many people prioritize looks over stats, you saying only stats are a need is still an opinion. It's also you trying to push what you feel is worthy of "need" on others. Not succeeding of course, but trying for sure. Until BioWare states that that stats come before looks, in their game, then it will always be an opinion. And the system in place doesn't differentiate between why someone may "need" an item. You do, others do, I might even. But the game does not. So if you want something other than what the game provides, speak up before the run. If not, deal with it.

 

The "system" in nature is kill or be killed, live a short life and die before old age. Yet we manage to use our ability to communicate and form our own systems within the system to make life long and relatively pleasant for as many people as possible. You can argue that you should be able to kill anyone you want because that's what's possible in the system and some people might even agree with you but that doesn't mean we should go around killing people.

 

Most people are going to be angry if you roll for looks over a stat upgrade and you will be outcast, be a ninja if you like and maybe you can hook up with some other ninjas and ninja all day and all night but don't expect to advance into the better guilds or make many reliable friends.

[ispanolfw]

So, since the reasons you want the item don't seem to matter to you -- is spite a good enough reason? If you were in my group, I'd roll need on everything since the concept of need/greed seems to be over your head. The system allows anybody to roll need, right? It must be legitimate to do so.

 

Your right, I wouldn't be bothered whatsoever. You helped beat the encounter, you have the right to roll. Not a right to win, just a right to roll, same as everyone else. You are trying to define Need as an absolute thing for EVERYONE. Which is false. If you say something like, people need to eat to survive, that's where it's an absolute. If you say I need this for better stats, but you wanting it for looks is not a need is your opinion. The person who prioritizes looks over all else might think their need for looks is legitimate, but not yours. They might think both are.

 

And this is why, if you don't like the system as it is, you say something before the run starts. I didn't design the system, my way of dealing with loot in groups isn't roll on everything either. But I understand that it IS that way, and why it is that way. You may think it allows people to grief and hit need on EVERYTHING, but the opposite is true. I can easily see people being given priority rolls due to class stats and the like preventing people from getting something for looks because THEY don't think they should have it.

 

The system is neutral, if you dislike it, say so up front or deal with it as it is.

[ispanolfw]

The "system" in nature is kill or be killed, live a short life and die before old age. Yet we manage to use our ability to communicate and form our own systems within the system to make life long and relatively pleasant for as many people as possible. You can argue that you should be able to kill anyone you want because that's what's possible in the system and some people might even agree with you but that doesn't mean we should go around killing people.

 

Most people are going to be angry if you roll for looks over a stat upgrade and you will be outcast, be a ninja if you like and maybe you can hook up with some other ninjas and ninja all day and all night but don't expect to advance into the better guilds or make many reliable friends.

 

And this comes back around to regardless of what ANY of us think, the system IS that way. Most people will restrict themselves for sure, but if you're one of those people, make it known or deal with the consequences. It really is that simple.

 

And honestly? Are you are trying to say your need is worth more than someone elses? Really? Why? Factual proof helps here, not opinions or views or beliefs.

[JaggidEdje]

Except that is still an opinion. Many people prioritize looks over stats, you saying only stats are a need is still an opinion. It's also you trying to push what you feel is worthy of "need" on others. Not succeeding of course, but trying for sure. Until BioWare states that that stats come before looks, in their game, then it will always be an opinion. And the system in place doesn't differentiate between why someone may "need" an item. You do, others do, I might even. But the game does not. So if you want something other than what the game provides, speak up before the run. If not, deal with it.

 

You are ignoring everything I actually said. Need and want are not defined by your opinion, or my opinion. It does not MATTER how you or I personally prioritize things.

 

In RL life, for example, you may prioritize having designer clothes over having food on your table, but if you don't at least sometimes divert some of your money away from clothing stores and into a grocery store, you will die. In this case, you need food, you only want nice clothes.

 

Stats vs. looks works exactly the same in the game. Whether you prioritize cosmetic over stats or not doesn't change the fact that if you do not at least sometimes upgrade for the sake of stats, you will not be able to progress in the game at all.

 

Justify your greed to yourself all you want by insisting it is just a matter of opinions. But your failure to differentiate between what a person wants and what a person needs doesn't make your argument valid, it just illustrates your inability to grasp the conceptual difference between the two, "want" and "need". Which pretty much falls squarely in the area of "greed"...

[ispanolfw]

You are ignoring everything I actually said. Need and want are not defined by your opinion, or my opinion. It does not MATTER how you or I personally prioritize things.

 

In RL life, for example, you may prioritize having designer clothes over having food on your table, but if you don't at least sometimes divert some of your money away from clothing stores and into a grocery store, you will die. In this case, you need food, you only want nice clothes.

 

Stats vs. looks works exactly the same in the game. Whether you prioritize cosmetic over stats or not doesn't change the fact that if you do not at least sometimes upgrade for the sake of stats, you will not be able to progress in the game at all.

 

Justify your greed to yourself all you want by insisting it is just a matter of opinions. But your failure to differentiate between what a person wants and what a person needs doesn't make your argument valid, it just illustrates your inability to grasp the conceptual difference between the two, "want" and "need". Which pretty much falls squarely in the area of "greed"...

 

Except you can define food for a human as a need quite easily. If you don't eat you will die at some point. You cannot however define stats as a need. Do better stats let you perform better? Sure, and that's why you feel you need them. But you know, it's not an absolute necessity, your character will not wither away and die permanently because of it. And this isn't even bringing into the discussion that it's a game. And progression, people who go for looks typically don't care about progression nearly as much as looking a certain way.

 

Again, all people need food to survive, not all people need to progress to enjoy the game. You feel YOU do, but that's your opinion, and you are entitled to that opinion. But you still wish to push it onto others.

 

EDIT: Wanted to add something. Stating that since you need the stats to progress and that is a need, but looks are a greed. This is very similar to saying "my way of playing is more important than yours so I can need while you should be greeding"

Edited January 29, 2012 by ispanolfw

[terminova]

Yes, but I do have objective statistics. On the last large thread about this topic, I stopped counting at 100-10. If you think "Need" and "Greed" are open to such wide interpretations, you should probably consider why then is it a mechanic in this game, and why the game never actually explains what those terms mean.

 

The forums are a very poor place to pull statistics of what the actual player-base thinks as it's a small percentage of them that actually bother to post on the forums.