No, You May Not Roll on Items for Another Class and Strip Out the Mods

[CBGB]

(Now Edited to address responses. See below about the refrain of 'you need to make loot rules clear before you start.'

 

Changed title in response to the variations of this:

"No, You May Not Roll on Items for Another Class and Strip Out the Mods"

I can certainly do it. I personally wouldn't do it, and I'd probably be pretty mad at a person who did it, but that doesn't change the fact that it's perfectly doable.

 

The trouble there is confusing 'can' - which is determined solely by you - and 'may,' which takes others into account. The difference is the whole reason for this thread, and the title was accurate, but since it seems easily misunderstood, I've changed it.

 

 

Original post:

I can't believe I'm posting about item rolls, usually not a big concern for me. But poor claims hurt group dynamics, and there's no need for this kind of thing.

 

Today, a Sith Marauder rolled Need to get this

Cademimu Sharpshooter's Jacket

+34 Endurance

+38 Cunning

+18 Critical Rating

 

when I pointed out it was made for an Agent, like me, he said he intended to strip out the mods and trade them.

 

When I noted that the mods are Bound, he insisted that since he could wear it, he could roll. More surprising was that when he brought the issue to /General, a few voices agreed.

 

Most did not, but the others need to know that sort of claim is a party-breaker. This is clearly an Agent item - a huge upgrade in my case - and my next group will get a little less healing as a result.

 

One of the pleasures of running Flashpoints is the chance to get gear suited to you. If it's better suited to someone else, leave it for them.

 

 

 

 

Edit: Responses to the Peanut Gallery

 

if I am able to press NEED, then i'm allowed to do it

That approach hurts your whole team, including you.

If I think that way, too, each FP run will improve our stats only half as often. I'll end up with your Marauder item and you with the Agent jacket as often as the other way, and we'll be no stronger for it.

If the rest of the team responds that way, your odds of bettering your abilities drop to a quarter. Grabbing 'because I can' is a losing standard.

 

Join a guild PUG's are always problematic one way or another.

It's definitely best to run with friends. Like a lot of players, I find I need to reach out further for some missions, and that usually turns out well, in part because our community expects players to be considerate of their teammates.

 

 

regardless of your views on loot, if you don't agree on loot rules before starting the run, then you deserve to get ninjaed. Think of it this way: If you agree on loot rules ahead of time, and someone breaks them, you have grounds to report them(in other games I've played, if someone broke established loot rules, you could report them under the "scamming" flag, and you'd get your loot and they'd get an infraction)

 

It's not your fault when someone acts without consideration, even if you didn't give them guidelines ahead of time.

 

Clarifying loot rules may be a wise practice (on p. 71, Caille recommends a 'loot macro'). But not doing so doesn't make poor behavior your fault. And a loot-grabberwon't be banned or punished by Bioware.

 

The kind of person who would take such a thing (really: a Cunning item, for a Marauder?) would need such detailed loot rules (Can you roll on item that increases secondary but not primary stats? Vice-versa? An item you already have but with mods you want?) that you'll never address them all. If you find discussing loot rules works for you, great, but don't ignore the value of community expectations.

 

 

 

 

 

 

My hope? A class-based rolling system would be nice (and, if an option, hugely popular), but introducing it takes more developer time than the ability to trade a BoP item within a team for a limited period. That option that won't deter the defiantly selfish but would help in many other cases.

 

Until then, here's to a community that follows Wheaton's Law. Interpretations will differ, but it surely has something to do with respecting others, beyond 'you look after your interests and I'll look after mine.' Part of good teaming is looking after each other.

Edited January 30, 2012 by CBGB

[Paralassa]

Because the previous thread has exceeded our normal threshold for thread length, we've started this new thread for the community to discuss loot rules.

 

As always, we ask that the community keep the following things in mind when responding:

 

• Stay on Target - Please keep discussion on topic.
  
• Insults - Please do not resort to or use them in any way in your posts. Posts should be productive, not destructive.
  
• Trolling - Please do not post messages that are purposefully designed to provoke, antagonize, or otherwise elicit a negative emotional response.
  
• Agree to Disagree - Be respectful of others' viewpoints even if they are opposite of your own. Discuss disagreements constructively.
  
• Flag, Don't Fight - Utilize the Flag Post feature to report possible rules violations, rather than responding to or fighting them.
  

 

Thank you and enjoy the discussion!

[Eldren]

Continued from the RagnarokJC's post on page 135 of this thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=2247981#post2247981

 

RagnarokJC said:

Did I break your argument up that easily? Usually, the better debaters I've faced in these forums take a few more posts before they start pulling out the insults and condescension.

You haven't come close to breaking up my argument quite yet. I'd be interested if you could just make a compelling case to begin with.

 

RagnarokJC said:

I simply draw upon my experiences in SWTOR and in MMO's in general. I could count the number of players who look at looting like you do on 2 hands and have fingers left. I've never seen it in SWTOR so far, and I've leveled one character to 50, another to 42, another to 26, and two more at level 18 each. I've run group content in SWTOR with PuG's every single time. You can keep yakking about statistics, but this is simply an observable fact.

So what you're saying is because of your personal experiences on one server (or possibly even two if you like to spread out that much in this game!), that constitutes an ability to use phrases like "vast majority"? It would have to be within this game, because no previous MMO has had equippable companions like TOR does. So that has to be the only scenario that would have any bearing on this discussion.

 

While we're at it, if you want to pull out MMO experience, let's tout mine up: I started playing Meridian 59 in 1996, moved on to Ultima Online in 1997, moved on to Asheron's Call in 1999, on to EverQuest in later in 1999, then moved to World of Warcraft in 2005, on into Age of Conan in 2008, to Warhammer: Age of Reckoning in that same year (2008), on to Aion in 2009, and three weekend beta tests and early access to The Old Republic as of December 15, 2011. In short, I've had a total of 15 years of MMO experience. It doesn't even count the time I spent in MUDs prior to that. I'd say between the two of us, though I don't yet know your qualifications, I'm more likely to have greater MMO experience. I didn't go into Matrix Online or Lord of the Rings Online, and only flirted with DC Universe Online for about three days before concluding I didn't enjoy it.

 

You're the one who keeps bandying about phrases like "vast majority", so I'm simply asking you to show me your hard statistics that allow you to conclude something so exact as "majority". It doesn't surprise me that you can't provide that information, and retreat to the much more nebulous "Observable fact". Even Jane Gooddall had the footage to back up her observations.

 

RagnarokJC said:

That would be kind of hard when considering that you seem to spend most of your time posting in these forums than actually playing. Also, don't overestimate the extent to which I care about what you do. You can do whatever you like, just as that vast majority I mentioned can do what they like should they choose to blacklist your characters forever.

You at least had the good form to say "seem to" in relating how much time I spend on the forums here. I show 385 posts from your account by clicking on your name. I show 263 posts from me. Conclude for yourself who's spending more time here on the forums.

 

I don't have to overestimate the degree to which you care about what I do. Your vehemence in these forums displays it more than adequately.

Edited January 28, 2012 by Eldren

[BenjaminminU]

I'll roll on whatever I like, as a sentinel I prefer the smuggler gear since it is nice and hoodless, if there is a smuggler in my group i'll ask him if he wants it, but if he hits pass then i'll take it for myself.

[Kaphik]

Why not? If it's a piece of moddable gear and I can wear it, why not roll if I really like the look? Odds are incredibly high that my companions can use the mods. If you really, really, really want that piece, run the flashpoint again. You do understand you can repeat those, right?

[Krondorf]

Does this take into account of the players education/ upbringing from home?

 

Grouping has it's own manners. Looting is part of the group.

Manners, common sense. If you want an item for your companion or greed for the sake of your epeen, then ask the group before you party into the instance.

 

If you don't and rudely just need on any items that is not specifically for your class, then you are rude, and need to be taught some respect for other fellow players.

 

If you are a healer and want it for your tank, ask the tanker in the group before you go and start the instance. Let the group know about your looting strategy.

And if you are accepted, so be it, if not, look for another and ask again.

[Zannis]

A solution that everyone could probably agree on:

 

Create gear that only companions can wear. Restrict regular gear in the game to players only. Ensure accessibility by providing plenty of avenues and options for acquiring 'companion' gear at all levels.

 

So long as there are plenty of customization options (same stats, different styles) implemented to compensate, I don't really see why anyone would complain to this.

[Kaphik]

A solution that everyone could probably agree on:

 

Don't pug. If you really want to protect yourself from meanies who may or may not want the exact same gear you you want, you won't subject yourself to pugs.

Edited January 28, 2012 by Kaphik

[United_Strafes]

Sure you can, I do it all the time.

[Zannis]

Don't pug. If you really want to protect yourself from meanies who may or may not want the exact same gear you you want, you won't subject yourself to pugs.

 

What's wrong with putting together a companion friendly pug? The real root of all the 'I lost the roll' QQ isn't that people are rolling on companion loot; it's that it wasn't communicated at the beginning of the run.

 

If you fall victim to rude people who don't communicate up front about loot rules, suck it up, learn from your mistake, add them to your ignore list and move on.

 

As much as anyone can rail that it shouldn't be allowed, Bioware designed the game so that everyone CAN in theory have NEED of gear outside of their own. Companions are a big part of the game, not everything is done in groups of 4+.

[Eldren]

A solution that everyone could probably agree on:

 

Create gear that only companions can wear. Restrict regular gear in the game to players only. Ensure accessibility by providing plenty of avenues and options for acquiring 'companion' gear at all levels.

 

So long as there are plenty of customization options (same stats, different styles) implemented to compensate, I don't really see why anyone would complain to this.

 

A personal recommendation of mine that I've made through several of these threads goes like this:

 

1) Add a companion loot box to each boss' loot table. This loot box would, upon being won by one of the players in a group, generate a piece of loot for a companion using the same "smart loot" system that quests currently use. It may not be the companion(s) you use most of the time, but one of your companions will receive something. Players would roll Need on this box if they knew what was good for them, though I suppose for players who didn't care about upgrading their companions, they could roll Greed or pass on it.

 

2) Make all loot that bosses in Flashpoints and Operations drop have class requirements, so someone can't roll on it for their character's companions (or so they'd at least be openly declaring their intentions to sell it by rolling Need on something whose class requirement they didn't meet). The jury's still out on how this would discourage someone from taking oranges for the mods.

 

Barring that approach, just move to a Roll/Pass option. Part of the loot drama people are concerned over is sourced in the different priorities of rolls available; people are upset that someone's rolling Need when they either rolled Greed, or just thought the person should have rolled Greed. If it moves to Roll/Pass, it becomes much simpler: if you want it, you roll. If you don't, you pass. People can question motives all they like, the reality remains: you roll for it if you want it.

 

This, in theory, is what NBG is meant to provide, but use of that system in WoW, and the new reality of companions who use the same gear as players, has muddied it up to the point that people are treating their personal filters of the NBG system as the way the system "should work" in its entirety, which is causing problems, and threads like this.

[Aigeas]

Simple solution…

1. Avoid pugs as much as you can, play with guildies/friends.

2. If somebody fails to understand reason, kick him out of the group and blacklist him making sure to make his legacy name known.

 

Trust me, isolation of lootwh@res allways do the trick. When they find they are unable to group with most of the server pop, they’ll know if they and their way of thinking are the majority or not!

[LogicalPremise]

Simple solution…

1. Avoid pugs as much as you can, play with guildies/friends.

2. If somebody fails to understand reason, kick him out of the group and blacklist him making sure to make his legacy name known.

 

Trust me, isolation of lootwh@res allways do the trick. When they find they are unable to group with most of the server pop, they’ll know if they and their way of thinking are the majority or not!

 

Then they whine for cross server LFG and the whole mess starts over again.

 

I have to say I PUG regularly (Yeah, I know, I'm sick) , and out of dozens and dozens of PUGS, I've only run across 3 people even asking to loot for companions (and that was on gear no one else really could use) and one derp-head who needed on everything (Sith Mara from another thread, needing on heavy +aim gear) and screaming it was his right.

 

That mara still can't get into any groups on Krath, lol.

[Grecanis]

The easiest fix for this would be to restrict need rolls to primary stat + armor type.

 

ie ..guardians would only be able to roll need on heavy strength gear, Sentinels on medium strength gear, etc.

 

*edit*

Also add a 60 minute trade window for BOP's

Edited January 28, 2012 by Grecanis

[Kabloosh]

I could see the argument of rolling on medium armor that goes for a agent be taken by a marauder to load it up with his own separate mods when he maybe replacing a unmoddable piece of gear.

 

Its all up to the group agreeing to whatever loot rules. If you worry about these things form your own group and state the loot rules. Party leader essentially has final say if its going to work or not and players can simply not play with an anal party leader with ridiculous loot rules.

[dargor-]

Sorry to break it to ya, but orange medium armor is anybody's grab.

[pursang]

Sorry to break it to ya, but orange medium armor is anybody's grab.

 

Oh? And why is that? Because you said so?

[terminova]

If my companion can use the mods in the item then I'm probably going to roll on it, if I feel like it. Everyone else can complain about it as much as they want, but that doesn't mean I cannot or will not roll on something I want to have.

 

In the end, no matter what Bioware does there will always be complaints about looting and who gets what.

[United_Strafes]

Oh? And why is that? Because you said so?

 

No he said it because it's a fact.

[ispanolfw]

Oh? And why is that? Because you said so?

 

No, because as much as ANYONE wants looting to work a certain way, it doesn't. You don't discuss and set rules beforehand, the rules are what is set forth in the game. And being as there are no written loot rules, and the system allows you to roll on anything you helped generate, yes, he's right in this case.

[itekazzawrrlic]

I find it hilarious that people who want to restrict people from rolling in order to stack the deck in their favor have the nerve to cry about greed.

[CG_Osirhis]

Until there is a Master Looter-like system, this is going to keep on happening. Once they have Master Looter implemented, this will no longer be an issue.

[gurugeorge]

It just seems that some people are so thick they don't actually understand either the mechanics or the point of a Need/Greed system.

 

Just have a straight roll and be done with it.

Edited January 28, 2012 by gurugeorge

[Senatsu]

In my book it goes:

 

Character > Companion > Looks and mods.

 

If a piece of loot drops that your companion can use, but a party member needs then you pass for the party member. If a piece of loot drops and you like the looks or want to sell the mods, but a party member need it to upgrade his companion's gear then you pass for the party member.

 

Simple "always-consider-the-greater-good" policy and common courtesy in my opinion. Function over fashion and stats over cash. People should be taught these things in kindergarten, unless that was just a few people who had to learn it.

[Jayvenger]

In my book it goes:

 

Character > Companion > Looks and mods.

 

If a piece of loot drops that your companion can use, but a party member needs then you pass for the party member. If a piece of loot drops and you like the looks or want to sell the mods, but a party member need it to upgrade his companion's gear then you pass for the party member.

 

Simple "always-consider-the-greater-good" policy and common courtesy in my opinion. Function over fashion and stats over cash. People should be taught these things in kindergarten, unless that was just a few people who had to learn it.

 

This, right here. Common curtsey is one of those things that people just don;t seem to have anymore. That and you know...common sense. Guess they aren't so common anymore.