Reevaluate the difficulty of the Eternal Championship

[Strathkin]

The "Sprint Champion" achievement in Eternal Championship SOLO is harder, as is "One For All" for defeating an Exarch while ungrouped, and without Alliance Combat Enhancements or Equipment Caches in Veteran Star Fortress / Heroic Mode. 

While you can complete Eternal Championship in Solo Mode, yes perhaps depending on your Gear, you'll still require both Legendary Implants & Item Level more upwards of 337+ if not far closer to 343.   The reason for the difficulty increase, is mostly in the 7.0 ability pruning, as well as the longer cast times we now see post 7.0 update. 

I don't believe they need to do too much, just perhaps slightly Prune Boss & Mini Boss HP by perhaps 5% to 7%.  Still they'll likely run their own testing if they hear the voices before they reconsider any change...  

Edited March 28 by Strathkin
Grammar

[VegaMist]

1 minute ago, DaddyAlduin said:

There is no disconnect; that's how they designed it

It is a disconnect. How many good Samaritans can one find to exploit (it is exploiting them since they'd get nothing for it) to complete that content? Not many. If all group members could receive progression in KOTXX chapters, you'd see groups organizing on fleet every time that content is included in GS objectives. Instead, barely (if ever) anyone does it, considering the time investment (which is normally longer than any given flashpoint).

5 minutes ago, DaddyAlduin said:

As you've stated multiple times, it doesn't matter if the balance has been thrown out of whack, as it still fits their original design of "this content is meant to be difficult," assuming you wish to stick to that viewpoint!

I don't believe I ever said "it doesn't matter if the balance has been thrown out of whack". I did say however that EC content was meant to be progressively difficult though still possible to be completed by a solo player, though further rounds would require them to sharpen their skills/learn the mechanics. There is also a Solo+ alternative which I think can be completed by almost anyone as long as they understand the mechanics.

12 minutes ago, DaddyAlduin said:

Like my man, I entirely agree KOTxx VM and MM have been had their balanced messed up due to 7.0's scaling; as has the EC! 

I think we may disagree on the reasoning. I see it as a conflict between two decisions (more so, after you pointed out that they meant it to be completed as a group), and you see it as a strictly balance issue. But OK.

14 minutes ago, DaddyAlduin said:

The entire point of this diversion I have taken you on was to reinforce the point; "it is intended to be difficult" is not an excuse for the effects scaling has had on the content. I don't have an issue with difficulty. I don't have an issue with encounters designed to be a challenge. I have an issue with the balance of an encounter being affected!

That's not entirely accurate. If you had no issues with the difficulty, you wouldn't be here. You would have either a) already completed and forgot about it, or b) studying guides and practicing different methods to overcome whichever rounds you had struggled with.

16 minutes ago, DaddyAlduin said:

While going through previous posts within the thread, I noticed you brought up FFXII(I think that's the FF you brought up?) so I will harken back to an example I used at the near-beginning of this thread; M'uru, from WOW. He was a raid boss, that 7 guilds managed to kill, so he was clearly possible; get Blizz nerfed him anyways! Why? Because the balance of the fight had gone outside the intended design. As is the case with KOTxx VM and MM; as is the case with EC; as is the case with SM uprisings. It's not the difficulty that's the issue. It's that the balance of the encounters have been messed up.

It was "FFVII Remake" which is an RPG - not an MMO. And speaking of your example, I assume WOW has way more than 7 guilds, so the boss was nerfed due to an overwhelmingly large percentage of guilds not being able to deal with him. If it was just 7 players in the whole SWTOR who could complete the Eternal Championship (or even just 70), I would wholeheartedly agree with you that the balance is messed up. However, even in this thread, multiple players (most being not the top tier, myself included) are telling you that they have been able to complete the Championship with different levels of difficulty (some less, some more) - with one (clearly top tier) being able to do it while "naked" - should get you thinking that perhaps it's more balanced than you realized.

[VegaMist]

17 minutes ago, JakRoanin said:

I've had a lvl 50 ZOOM freeze up and stop healing just about everywhere.

That's a different issue all together and affects all healing companions. I think the intend here - for better or worse - was to emulate human healers who cannot heal non-stop and essentially need to take breaks to recharge. Anyone who ever played a healer knows what I'm talking about.

[Luciferior]

3 hours ago, JakRoanin said:

You can beat EC but not an OP? That makes no sense. I'll never be able to Solo VET Star Fortresses, but they aren't intended to be SOLO.  The KOTET/KOTFE chapters have the ability to choose what difficulty you want. So why shouldn't EC? How is that BAD? How does it hurt anyone? Really asking. If you can choose your hardest mode, then why torment others who need a less intense experience?

Iv never done a OP before and I am not currently subbed so I am unable to try I dont know any of the mechanics of any of the OPs

Far as vet star fortress iv done the tatoonie one on vet think it was on the same toon as I did EC earlier 

My hang up with Ops is more about being optimal rather then running what I like and since im running with other people who most likely are more knowledgeable when it comes to them Im pretty much inclined to go with the flow or get lost lol

Someone is welcome to correct me if I am wrong but I dont expect a OP grp would be interested in a arsenal merc who runs a berserker implant and the tag n bag perk

Especially one who doesnt know the mechanics why bring a player like that when they can bring a experienced player who has the set up that they might actually want potentially on a class that will pull better numbers and wont be a liability 

Idk about you but personally Id take the latter in that situation not the former

To learn those mechanics id be surprised if a random OP group would be willing to teach them Id most likely have to find a guild 

End game content like that has so many strings attached for a player with my mindset...

Thats why I play the way I do I learn on my own survive on my own and Die on my own lol I personally hate needing to rely on other people it makes me feel like a burden

If someone has to hold my hand to teach me something like that id be tormenting my self with the ideal I couldnt figure it out on my own so I needed someone to explain it lol

[VegaMist]

9 minutes ago, Luciferior said:

Iv never done a OP before and I am not currently subbed so I am unable to try I dont know any of the mechanics of any of the OPs

Far as vet star fortress iv done the tatoonie one on vet think it was on the same toon as I did EC earlier 

My hang up with Ops is more about being optimal rather then running what I like and since im running with other people who most likely are more knowledgeable when it comes to them Im pretty much inclined to go with the flow or get lost lol

Someone is welcome to correct me if I am wrong but I dont expect a OP grp would be interested in a arsenal merc who runs a berserker implant and the tag n bag perk

Especially one who doesnt know the mechanics why bring a player like that when they can bring a experienced player who has the set up that they might actually want potentially on a class that will pull better numbers and wont be a liability 

Idk about you but personally Id take the latter in that situation not the former

To learn those mechanics id be surprised if a random OP group would be willing to teach them Id most likely have to find a guild 

End game content like that has so many strings attached for a player with my mindset...

Thats why I play the way I do I learn on my own survive on my own and Die on my own lol I personally hate needing to rely on other people it makes me feel like a burden

If someone has to hold my hand to teach me something like that id be tormenting my self with the ideal I couldnt figure it out on my own so I needed someone to explain it lol

I usually do Vet Star Fortress solo, haven't had issues on any spec I attempted it on so far. For Flashpoints, I can solo most Vet ones (unless there are mechanics preventing it), and I normally prefer them on Vet, especially if I'm hunting decorations (since that means I can keep them all) - exception being when I'm doing a speed-run for GS. Haven't done Ops in years for similar reasons as you're. I do PVP though, a lot - that's probably my main activity these days.

[DaddyAlduin]

1 minute ago, VegaMist said:

It is a disconnect. How many good Samaritans can one find to exploit (it is exploiting them since they'd get nothing for it) to complete that content? Not many. If all group members could receive progression in KOTXX chapters, you'd see groups organizing on fleet every time that content is included in GS objectives. Instead, barely (if ever) anyone does it, considering the time investment (which is normally longer than any given flashpoint).

That's irrelevant to my point; they intentionally designed it in that manner. If they thought it was disconnected, than they likely wouldn't have designed it that way! Alas this is irrelevant to the larger discussion, and would be better discussed in a seperate thread dedicated to this specific issue, and we should prolly stay on topic lel

1 minute ago, VegaMist said:

I don't believe I ever said "it doesn't matter if the balance has been thrown out of whack". I did say however that EC content was meant to be progressively difficult though still possible to be completed by a solo player, though further rounds would require them to sharpen their skills/learn the mechanics. There is also a Solo+ alternative which I think can be completed by almost anyone as long as they understand the mechanics.

You continously used BW stating "Only those who are skilled and diligent enough will work their way towards the final round in hopes of unseating the Eternal Champion" as reason to dismiss my critiques about the fight being unbalanced in its current state! I can go and find every example of you using this to dismiss my complaints if you want, but I'm lazy rn.

1 minute ago, VegaMist said:

I think we may disagree on the reasoning. I see it as a conflict between two decisions (more so, after you pointed out that they meant it to be completed as a group), and you see it as a strictly balance issue. But OK.

Yes, I do see the fact that KOTxx is significantly more challenging right now than on release as a balancing problem, caused by scaling being janky and the numerous changes the game has gone through since 2015 that have had a fundemental effect on the gameplay loop and balancing!

1 minute ago, VegaMist said:

That's not entirely accurate. If you had no issues with the difficulty, you wouldn't be here. You would have either a) already completed and forgot about it, or b) studying guides and practicing different methods to overcome whichever rounds you had struggled with.

I did indeed beat it; but there was no reason for me to bring it up when I did, and it is irrelevant to this discussion. Just cause something can be beaten, doesn't mean we automatically have to believe that it's balanced and in a state intended by the designers! You can beat a piece of content and still think "that was overtuned" 

1 minute ago, VegaMist said:

It was "FFVII Remake" which is an RPG - not an MMO. And speaking of your example, I assume WOW has way more than 7 guilds, so the boss was nerfed due to an overwhelmingly large percentage of guilds not being able to deal with him. If it was just 7 players in the whole SWTOR who could complete the Eternal Championship (or even just 70), I would wholeheartedly agree with you that the balance is messed up.

I don't see what the different genres have to do with my point? 

And you're right, WOW does have more than 5 (upon checking, I misremembered the specific number) but thats not my point. My point is that "people can beat something, but it does not mean it's balanced."

Overtuning of a boss, be it either their damage or health, or even both, having been increased beyond the initial design specs, results in an unbalanced fight, both of which the EC is affected by! The bosses received, on average, a 20% health increase compared to their release state, and while it's impossible to get specific numbers for damage, considering how scaling currently works in SWTOR I'd say it's a relatively safe guess to say that got a not-insignificant buff to their damage as well; compounding this with the fact abilities were pruned, cast times were changed, GCD has been changed, and companions are weaker, it's evident that the fight is not in the state intended by designers!

1 minute ago, VegaMist said:

However, even in this thread, multiple players (most being not the top tier, myself included) are telling you that they have been able to complete the Championship with different levels of difficulty (some less, some more) - with one (clearly top tier) being able to do it while "naked" - should get you thinking that perhaps it's more balanced than you realized.

And I am in awe of the dude that was able to do it naked! But it's irrelevant to my point, as impressive as it is!

[Luciferior]

@VegaMist I Focus PvP also which is more workable to an extent you have people who do objectives or damage farm premades ect

People in general who just like to fight granted class balance is annoying so your potentially stuck going against someone who reaches for the lowest hanging fruit so they can crutch their win by thats their choice. 

Too many people in PvP especially on star forge atm subscribe to the ideal win at any cost no matter the class build spec theyl 5v1 you prance around like its skill then when you get them 1v1 and they start dying they pack their bags and run for their team

And its just how it is since warzones are unlimited atm no longer subject to subscriber status nothing can really be done I can make threads about pvp needing attention all day long

But broadsword doesnt have to really do anything to settle those issues its just like it is in ESO Or Guild wars 2 PvP is a afterthought 

PvE makes the money along with the game store and PvP get some scraps zip tied together with the pretense its the best they can do lol 

 

[JakRoanin]

VET FP's are not technically difficult for me, but they are too tiring unless of course it's Esseless. My hands cramp and I just can't finish them. I know OPS of any level can't happen. Tried them with my guild and OMG THE PAIN in my hands! Not worth the torture. What kills me about EC is that the Mysterious Stranger was literally the ONLY fun part of Taris in OG KOTOR. I wanted to repeat the nostalgia. 

Edited March 28 by JakRoanin

[VegaMist]

3 hours ago, DaddyAlduin said:

That's irrelevant to my point; they intentionally designed it in that manner. If they thought it was disconnected, than they likely wouldn't have designed it that way! Alas this is irrelevant to the larger discussion, and would be better discussed in a seperate thread dedicated to this specific issue, and we should prolly stay on topic lel

It is relevant to my answer. You're the one that keeps asking me to clarify why I feel KOTXX is unbalanced. I personally was not planning to discuss it beyond my initial statement in this thread (and definitely not for so long).

3 hours ago, DaddyAlduin said:

You continously used BW stating "Only those who are skilled and diligent enough will work their way towards the final round in hopes of unseating the Eternal Champion" as reason to dismiss my critiques about the fight being unbalanced in its current state! I can go and find every example of you using this to dismiss my complaints if you want, but I'm lazy rn.

I did say that, and? I never denied it. I did deny saying a different statement which you attributed to me earlier - they are not the same.

3 hours ago, DaddyAlduin said:

I did indeed beat it; but there was no reason for me to bring it up when I did, and it is irrelevant to this discussion. Just cause something can be beaten, doesn't mean we automatically have to believe that it's balanced and in a state intended by the designers! You can beat a piece of content and still think "that was overtuned" 

You can indeed think that something was over-tuned, but that's subjective. Objectively, it may be correct or not. There are multiple people in this thread alone who subjectively don't agree. Why do you think that your subjective opinion outweighs theirs?

3 hours ago, DaddyAlduin said:

I don't see what the different genres have to do with my point? 

Just a clarifier I decided to add - not everything is about your point.

3 hours ago, DaddyAlduin said:

And you're right, WOW does have more than 5 (upon checking, I misremembered the specific number) but thats not my point. My point is that "people can beat something, but it does not mean it's balanced."

Overtuning of a boss, be it either their damage or health, or even both, having been increased beyond the initial design specs, results in an unbalanced fight, both of which the EC is affected by! The bosses received, on average, a 20% health increase compared to their release state, and while it's impossible to get specific numbers for damage, considering how scaling currently works in SWTOR I'd say it's a relatively safe guess to say that got a not-insignificant buff to their damage as well; compounding this with the fact abilities were pruned, cast times were changed, GCD has been changed, and companions are weaker, it's evident that the fight is not in the state intended by designers!

And my point is that if a planned percentage of people can manage the content, then that content is considered balanced. You don't know what that planned percentage is. Is it 10%? 30%? Obviously, 5 guilds fell way below a target number, otherwise it wouldn't be adjusted.

Coming back to EC, you're saying the bosses received, on average a 20% health increase. OK. What about players? How much health increase have we received since that adjustment was made? If the bosses were left as they were on the day of their release, they probably wouldn't be considered bosses anymore.

3 hours ago, DaddyAlduin said:

And I am in awe of the dude that was able to do it naked! But it's irrelevant to my point, as impressive as it is!

I wouldn't call it irrelevant. You are asking someone to look into the balancing. Be careful what you wish for. Someone may look at that video of a guy doing it "naked", check the stats, decide that EC has become too easy compared to the current player's max level, and re-balance it up, essentially doing the opposite of what you're hoping for.

Edited March 28 by VegaMist

[VegaMist]

1 hour ago, Luciferior said:

@VegaMist I Focus PvP also which is more workable to an extent you have people who do objectives or damage farm premades ect

People in general who just like to fight granted class balance is annoying so your potentially stuck going against someone who reaches for the lowest hanging fruit so they can crutch their win by thats their choice. 

Too many people in PvP especially on star forge atm subscribe to the ideal win at any cost no matter the class build spec theyl 5v1 you prance around like its skill then when you get them 1v1 and they start dying they pack their bags and run for their team

And its just how it is since warzones are unlimited atm no longer subject to subscriber status nothing can really be done I can make threads about pvp needing attention all day long

But broadsword doesnt have to really do anything to settle those issues its just like it is in ESO Or Guild wars 2 PvP is a afterthought 

PvE makes the money along with the game store and PvP get some scraps zip tied together with the pretense its the best they can do lol 

 

I'd say it about similar here on Satele Shan (though I believe you're getting more pops). Always nice to meet a fellow PVP-er.

Edited March 28 by VegaMist

[Luciferior]

@VegaMist There is a reason why it sounds similar to whats happening on SS .

I started on SS before I transferred to star forge and SS is the server that taught me that lesson painfully lol

There was a ranked guild on SS during early post 7.0 called Weapon X I believe I managed to get on their bad side by trying to que ranked at the time I was new barely had the 306 rating I needed I was still trying to understand the spec I was using after its adjustment trying to learn the ropes

I felt like I was doing great in warzones soon as I got to that organized group PvP I got introduced real fast to how PvP works in ranked especially with guilds involved

Lol these guys had guild members on both side of the ques the ones on my team literally stood by as their guildies from the op team farmed me I guess I invaded their private little domain and didnt pay my tribute by kissing their asses...

Naturally they all had very high opinions of each other I mean its hard work controlling both sides of a ranked match and farming 1 specific person who has literal no one to rely on lol

They educated me well and proper about the state of PvP in this game and taught me to keep organized guilds at arms length 

If you want to win at PvP in this game join a PvP guild and stack as much meta as possible the one with more friends wins lol

Now we see the result so many people took that ideal to heart people premade just to keep from getting farmed by other premades 

But if you solo que in this PvP and you dont have a friends list of people willing to puppy guard you the entire time no guild to back you up then you just get farmed 5v1

And their all the greatest players in the game because they dont bother queing alone anymore or fighting alone 

If you manage to drop one and rub it in the excuses fly like no tomorrow they lagged out their phone was ringing they havnt seen day light in 9 months and a ray of sunshine crept into their rooms and blinded them you name it lol 

The best you can do is annoy them and stand your ground knowing damn well 9/10 times they going to pile on you and there is nothing you can do about it lol

If you dare call them out on them always needing the 5v1 odds they always say the same thing ... "were just friends that want to play together!" 

Then they rag on you for not having a friends list full of people dedicated to the same mindset lol 

Everytime I made friends on star forge for PvP they always turned out to be the same they either joined premade guilds to farm people or they qued together to farm solos

They didnt want to fight other premade grps they just became part of the problem from then on I learned lol Trust no one rely on my self if I want to succeed at this games PvP start taking names down keeping track of whos who soon as I see a specific group I know what to expect 

Edited March 28 by Luciferior

[VegaMist]

34 minutes ago, Luciferior said:

@VegaMist There is a reason why it sounds similar to whats happening on SS .

I started on SS before I transferred to star forge and SS is the server that taught me that lesson painfully lol

There was a ranked guild on SS during early post 7.0 called Weapon X I believe I managed to get on their bad side by trying to que ranked at the time I was new barely had the 306 rating I needed I was still trying to understand the spec I was using after its adjustment trying to learn the ropes

I felt like I was doing great in warzones soon as I got to that organized group PvP I got introduced real fast to how PvP works in ranked especially with guilds involved

Lol these guys had guild members on both side of the ques the ones on my team literally stood by as their guildies from the op team farmed me I guess I invaded their private little domain and didnt pay my tribute by kissing their asses...

Naturally they all had very high opinions of each other I mean its hard work controlling both sides of a ranked match and farming 1 specific person who has literal no one to rely on lol

They educated me well and proper about the state of PvP in this game and taught me to keep organized guilds at arms length 

If you want to win at PvP in this game join a PvP guild and stack as much meta as possible the one with more friends wins lol

Now we see the result so many people took that ideal to heart people premade just to keep from getting farmed by other premades 

But if you solo que in this PvP and you dont have a friends list of people willing to puppy guard you the entire time no guild to back you up then you just get farmed 5v1

And their all the greatest players in the game because they dont bother queing alone anymore or fighting alone 

If you manage to drop one and rub it in the excuses fly like no tomorrow they lagged out their phone was ringing they havnt seen day light in 9 months and a ray of sunshine crept into their rooms and blinded them you name it lol 

The best you can do is annoy them and stand your ground knowing damn well 9/10 times they going to pile on you and there is nothing you can do about it lol

If you dare call them out on them always needing the 5v1 odds they always say the same thing ... "were just friends that want to play together!" 

Then they rag on you for not having a friends list full of people dedicated to the same mindset lol 

Everytime I made friends on star forge for PvP they always turned out to be the same they either joined premade guilds to farm people or they qued together to farm solos

They didnt want to fight other premade grps they just became part of the problem from then on I learned lol Trust no one rely on my self if I want to succeed at this games PvP start taking names down keeping track of whos who soon as I see a specific group I know what to expect 

That guild is still here, but there aren't many of them in PVP - I assume some quit when ranked was cancelled. Our guild used to be called Akatsuki back in the day. Some moved to SF, some left, we left for couple of years (me and my boyfriend), came back, renamed the guild, created an imp guild in addition - both two person only. He travels a lot for work, so I play solo when he's not around. Been OK mostly. Thank you for sharing.

[ivicapesun]

12 hours ago, Toraak said:

As you've seen people post. You can do it alone, it just does take understanding of your class (Rotation, and DCD's), a ranked up companion (ranged companion is a better option), and understanding of the mechanics of each fight. There are guides to help with the boss mechanics out there, or used to be anyway.

 

It is not something you can just walk into and have your companion give you a free pass at for you to solo it. knowledge of the fights is the most important part of it, then rotation, and knowledge of DCD's so you know when to use what.

It's like doing hard mode ops if you need to be so careful, it takes a helluva a lot of concentration, well some of us just don't have it, it's not about learning, it's about focus in the fight, I play this game because to me it's perfect stress release, I need something like that to calm down, but if the fight is too hard and when I'm tired, I can't simply just go through tough fights like these, I will lose every single time, sorry some of us still have real-world things to deal with, they always come first, the game comes second.

I know all that, and yet it was too hard for me to pass, yes I even had the instructions that I followed it, sorry, but when something is too hard it's just too hard, but there was quite a time passed since the last time I passed eternal championship so basically I forgot everything, I have to learn everything from scratch, again.

It's not like I have all day to play, I play for maybe 1 hour or 2 at best per day, sometimes even lesser than that, I cannot afford it more.

Edited March 28 by ivicapesun

[ivicapesun]

10 hours ago, JakRoanin said:

No matter what there will always be people who will never accept any other reason for people not being able to do anything other than they're idiots who can't play. Have a time constraint? No you just can't play. Have a disability? No, you're just not capable of understanding your class. Have bad internet? No, you're just lazy. It's exhausting. 

It's easy to judge others who have problems in doing it, always and find excuses that fit your reasonings.

Edited March 28 by ivicapesun

[DaddyAlduin]

1 hour ago, VegaMist said:

It is relevant to my answer. You're the one that keeps asking me to clarify why I feel KOTXX is unbalanced. I personally was not planning to discuss it beyond my initial statement in this thread (and definitely not for so long).

I wasn't saying that KOTxx potentially being unbalanced was irrelevant, I was saying that the specific conversation of "KOTxx progression in a group," which is something i agree with btw, would be better suited for a seperate thread.

1 hour ago, VegaMist said:

I did say that, and? I never denied it. I did deny saying a different statement which you attributed to me earlier - they are not the same.

You would reply with that when I'd mention balance was messed up, implying that you think it's okay as it maintains what you believe to be the intended goal of EC! If you were meaning something entirely different with that, than I apologize for misunderstanding, but that's definitely how it came off to me!

1 hour ago, VegaMist said:

You can indeed think that something was over-tuned, but that's subjective. Objectively, it may be correct or not. There are multiple people in this thread alone who subjectively don't agree. Why do you think that your subjective opinion outweighs theirs?

I don't; literally the first "real" multi-post discussion that occurred on this was me stressing objective stats vs subjective "feel." If you took what I stated that this is in reply to as me saying "my subjective opinion is correct" than you deeply misunderstood what I was saying, cause thats not at all what I meant!

1 hour ago, VegaMist said:

Just a clarifies I decided to add - not everything is about your point.

Generally in a discussion like this, formatted in the way you are formatting your messages, it would be standard practice to assume that that statement is intended to be part of the discussion!

1 hour ago, VegaMist said:

And my point is that if a planned percentage of people can manage the content, then that content is considered balanced. You don't know what that planned percentage is. Is it 10%? 30%? Obviously, 5 guilds fell way below a target number, otherwise it wouldn't be adjusted.

Yes, this is correct; a fight needs to be properly balanced for it to stay within its intended design, which is the crux of this discussion!

1 hour ago, VegaMist said:

Coming back to EC, you're saying the bosses received, on average a 20% health increase. OK. What about players? How much health increase have we received since that adjustment was made? If the bosses were left as they were on the day of their release, they probably wouldn't be considered bosses anymore.

Between none and very little (depending on the specific class) due to how level scaling works; a BIS slot comparison equates to what is pretty much equal stats when comparing pre-7.0 unscaled content to post 7.0 scaled content; and if you have even a couple of stats below the potential max, they scale downwards disproportionately compared to what they should. Someone earlier in this thread did a comparison of 344 Rakata vs a verifiable stat readout of BIS from 2016. In 2022, the players stats were significantly lower than those of a pre-7.0 unscaled toon!

Level 65 (2016)

- HP: 80k

- Mastery: 5,276

- Endurance: 6,400

- Power: 2,845

- Presence: 3,762

- Damage (Pri): ... - 3,250

 

Level 65 (synced) (2022)

- HP: 70k

- Mastery: 3,626

- Endurance: 4,477

- Power: 1,816

- Presence: 3,130

- Damage (Pri): ... - 2,096

I don't have the stats of the person comparing 344 Rakata to the numbers above, and while I can grab them if you want I'd prefer if you checked it against your own stats anyways so that way its easily verifiable!

 

It's also not just the health increase that has had an effect on balance; the bosses damage has very likely increased (although this isn't objectively verifiable, knowing what we know about scaling it's very likely,) the ability pruning, cast time changes, GCD changes, and companion nerfs have *generally* resulted in players being weaker than they were pre-7.0, even discounting the scaling issues.

 

1 hour ago, VegaMist said:

I wouldn't call it irrelevant. You are asking someone to look into the balancing. Be careful what you wish for. Someone may look at that video of a guy doing it "naked", check the stats, decide that EC has become too easy compared to the current player's max level, and re-balance it up, essentially doing the opposite of what you're hoping for.

And if thats what they decide after reviewing how the balance has changed, so be it! But "This player can do this" is irrelevant within these types of discussions. 

Does LetMeSoloHer being able to solo Melania without getting hit once in Elden Ring mean that she should be buffed to the moon? No! You don't balance things based off individual experiences; you balance them by comparing their current state to their intended design, with the resulting change (or lack thereof) being dictated by that!

[DaddyAlduin]

21 minutes ago, ivicapesun said:

It's like doing hard mode ops if you need to be so careful, it takes a helluva a lot of concentration, well some of us just don't have it, it's not about learning, it's about focus in the fight, I play this game because to me it's perfect stress release, I need something like that to calm down, but if the fight is too hard and when I'm tired, I can't simply just go through tough fights like these, I will lose every single time, sorry some of us still have real-world things to deal with, they always come first, the game comes second.

I know all that, and yet it was too hard for me to pass, yes I even had the instructions that I followed it, sorry, but when something is too hard it's just too hard, but there was quite a time passed since the last time I passed eternal championship so basically I forgot everything, I have to learn everything from scratch, again.

It's not like I have all day to play, I play for maybe 1 hour or 2 at best per day, sometimes even lesser than that, I cannot afford it more.

I know this is probably a reply you didn't expect from me of all people, but you can't ask for all content to be doable by everyone. Games, and especially MMO's, need hard, challenging content to keep their top-end players entertained, and there should be special rewards linked to that challenging content to encourage people to engage with and face those challenges!

 

With you mentioning that you spend 1 or 2 hours a day on the game, I hate to say this and hope you take it in the good-faith manner it's intended, but you simply aren't the kind of person that higher-tier content is designed for. It's intended to be done by those investing a significant amount of time and effort learning the game, learning their classes, learning their builds; and I mean nothing personal by this, but it just doesn't sound like that's the kind of player you are.

Edited March 28 by DaddyAlduin

[DaddyAlduin]

If you're getting stressed out, realize that challenging content isn't meant to be done by everyone, and don't feel bad or, idk, "like you aren't good enough!" There's nothing wrong with not having the time to invest into a game to hit the point where you are capable of doing the top-end content!

[VegaMist]

You don't balance things based on individual experiences, but you do balance them on percentages of individual experiences. It's apparent that your mind is set and nothing anyone can say or do will sway you. OK. So be it.

[DaddyAlduin]

14 minutes ago, VegaMist said:

You don't balance things based on individual experiences, but you do balance them on percentages of individual experiences. It's apparent that your mind is set and nothing anyone can say or do will sway you. OK. So be it.

I could say the same about you; but I won't, because I'd like to believe this is a good faith discussion! I'm open to having my mind changed! Just because you haven't managed to yet, doesn't mean that if I was to be given objective reason to believe that the balancing is not messed up that outweighs my objective evidence that is has, I wouldn't change my mind! 

 

If you are going to dip out, than so be it; bad timing on your part though, as it would appear you left the conversation once hard, verifiable numbers started to come into play; on that note, before you leave, mind posting your scaled stats here, preferably in a screenshot? Simply so I can harken back to them in any potential future discussions, as having the most information available for both sides is nothing but a good thing!

[DeannaVoyager]

55 minutes ago, DaddyAlduin said:

Yes, this is correct; a fight needs to be properly balanced for it to stay within its intended design, which is the crux of this discussion!

If your EC is the only instance that is unbalanced and impossible to complete it sounds like a bug that no-one else is experiencing. You should make a ticket instead of asking for a nerf. 
 

 

51 minutes ago, DaddyAlduin said:

I know this is probably a reply you didn't expect from me of all people, but you can't ask for all content to be doable by everyone.

Well said, definitely worth thinking about.

[VegaMist]

1 minute ago, DaddyAlduin said:

I could say the same about you; but I won't, because I'd like to believe this is a good faith discussion! I'm open to having my mind changed! Just because you haven't managed to yet, doesn't mean that if I was to be given objective reason to believe that the balancing is not messed up that outweighs my objective evidence that is has, I wouldn't change my mind! 

 

If you are going to dip out, than so be it; bad timing on your part though, as it would appear you left the conversation once hard, verifiable numbers started to come into play; on that note, before you leave, mind posting your scaled stats here, preferably in a screenshot? Simply so I can harken back to them in any potential future discussions, as having the most information available for both sides is nothing but a good thing!

It's literally midnight and I'm a bit tired of continuous back and fourth. I saw the numbers - they are not proving anything to me, and I'm out of energy. I wasn't able to change your mind - that's OK (doesn't bother me). Have a good night (or whatever time of the day/night you have).

[DaddyAlduin]

5 minutes ago, VegaMist said:

It's literally midnight and I'm a bit tired of continuous back and fourth. I saw the numbers - they are not proving anything to me, and I'm out of energy. I wasn't able to change your mind - that's OK (doesn't bother me). Have a good night (or whatever time of the day/night you have).

Than go to sleep; don't let some discussion with some rando affect anything involving your life > : ( 

While I think we were having a productive discussion, if you still wish to exit the conversation whenever you return, that's fine, ain't nothing wrong with that and I completely understand! But I would still ask you to kindly send your scaled stats in here, as the more information and context we have access to in here allows easier and more objective discussion!

 

[ZUHFB]

10 hours ago, JakRoanin said:

What bothers me is that SOLO not SOLO+ but True SOLO isn't possible for EVERYONE

I do not think there can be a version of the eternal championship that people can beat who are currently not able to. The issue just isn't numbers, it's not a certain boss doing to much damage or whatever, it is a core problem that the player should fix themselves. 

I can maybe explain it better at with an example, if someone dies to e.g. not interrupting the slow adds in doom droid fight and then being caught in the explosive adds is not a balance issue. It's straight up missing game knowledge, especially if because those droids are weak targets too (by definition not by scaling). I do agree that having a mandatory interrupt in a single target solo fight that wipes someone if missed is not fair for players with slow connection, bad hands or just old age or any problem BUT those adds are weak, which means literally most abilities in the game stun them: force scream, blazing bolts, force storm and many many more, there are plenty options but I bet most people who cannot beat the championship didn't know this or haven't even tried it.

But giving up after dying to the same thing 3 or 4 times and thinking that balancing is the issue especially if the player hasn't even tried changing what they're doing cannot be fixed with balancing. The only thing that can be done is make the mechanics so weak and so meaningless there's no point in even trying to play them correctly which then raises the question of why not give us the rewards? If the content is so easy it's impossible to wipe why have the extra step of even doing it?

I am 100% sure that if everybody in this thread would've beaten the championship if they'd have spend the time on zakuul doing it instead of here typing. Especially with a swtorista guide open on the 2nd screen. 

[xxSHOONYxx]

19 minutes ago, ZUHFB said:

The only thing that can be done is make the mechanics so weak and so meaningless there's no point in even trying to play them correctly which then raises the question of why not give us the rewards?

You mean like the travesty they did with sm ops?

[Crystal_Mind]

Wow, this thread is actually still going. Alright then. Let me see if I understand where we're at after 8 pages.

OP Claim: The Eternal Championship is unbalanced/overtuned compared to original design
Specific Argument #1: The level scaling is off
Supporting Evidence #1: Comparative Player v. Boss stats from a thread posted in March of 2022 (patch 7.0)
Counterargument:

Spoiler

On 3/26/2024 at 4:25 PM, xxSHOONYxx said:

Player stats
Level 65 (2016)
- HP: 80k
- Mastery: 5,276
- Endurance: 6,400
- Power: 2,845
- Presence: 3,762
- Damage (Pri): ... - 3,250

Now
- HP: 93k
- Mastery 5141
- Endurance 6362
-  Power 3478
- Damage 3154

Shoony's listed stats (spoilered above) align with what I usually see, as well. Player health (even before 343 gear) is on-par with a well-geared player of the era. player damage--actual damage, including the power stat, not just the tooltip on your mainhand--is also higher. Now, I'll grant that players have less power than they did in 6.x because we're no longer subjected to the scale-breaking hilarity that was Veterans Edge stacks, but I don't count that as a loss.

With regard to boss health scaling, I went back and checked. For the most part, bosses seem to have the same or slightly higher hp in 7.0 than they did in 6.0 (but not nearly as much as they had in their level 70 iterations in the latter half of the 5.x era). Set against the increase in player power, the marginal increase in boss health compared to 4.x is canceled out (even without VE).

Specific Argument #2: Companions are weaker
Supporting Evidence: Just anecdotes.
Counter: Lots of folks say that their comps "feel" weaker, and there was a bug at 7.0 launch, but even when it was being reported most frequently I never encountered the frozen comp issue. Regardless, an issue with comps is not an issue with the championship itself. This argument can be discarded.

Specific Argument #3: GCDs & Cast times are different
Supporting Evidence: This is just given as its own statement.
Response:  I'm not sure which specific cast times OP is concerned about, nor can I say what standard alacrity gearing was in 4.0. A quick skim of ancient youtube looks like a lot of people were running 9-10%, but idk if that was a function of gearing or what. Without a more concrete argument of what specifically OP thinks has changed so drastically and how this change breaks balance, I can't address this further.

Specific Argument #4: Pruning/Class Changes mean players are weaker and/or missing critical tools
Supporting Evidence: Given as its own statement.
Response: Classes have changed, yes. That's how MMOs work. But it's a tradeoff. We've lost some tools and gained others (60% AoE DR, anyone?). If specific examples had been given, I could address this better, but alas...

Specific Argument #5: But it's not what the devs intended
Supporting Evidence: Previous arguments
Response: See previous. Without a direct line to the developers' brains, this argument doesn't stand on its own.

I think that's everything.