Reevaluate the difficulty of the Eternal Championship

[DaddyAlduin]

You can subjectively say that you find it easier; good for you! But we can objectively compare stats compared to pre-7.0, and verify that the balancing has been messed up.

[xxSHOONYxx]

1 minute ago, Leoperaghost said:

I’ve used hatred, rage/vengance, and pt. Granted I’m a tank main first and foremost but I know the DPS classes for my tanks as well. 

Abuse that dps now have 60% aoe dr and stand where you shouldn't. That next to tacticals should be the biggest increase in terms of dps compared to 4.0, if you are having issues with staying alive use heroic moment + unity or sacrifice. 
No idea about hatred because it's a class i don't like, but juggernaut and pt should be doable

[xxSHOONYxx]

6 minutes ago, DaddyAlduin said:

Again, you're just completely missing my point. The issue isn't "it's hard." The issue is "The balancing is broken" which is objectively verifiable. 

If it's easier to do it now than in 4.0 then how verifiable it is just crumbles. 
 

7 minutes ago, DaddyAlduin said:

You can brag about being able to do it as much as you want; it has nothing to do with my point. I'm not complaining because I find it difficult; I'm critiquing the fact that the balance is broken and not working as designed.

Not bragging because is not something i care about and don't even deem it hard, would be like someone bragging that they made it to level 10. Galactic seasons was supposed to be THE "hard" content of that patch. Nothing to do with balance when now you have many more tools to deal with it. If anything the balancing is bad but because it was not adjusted to the new tools the player has that make it easier

[DaddyAlduin]

1 minute ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

If it's easier to do it now than in 4.0 then how verifiable it is just crumbles. 
 

Not bragging because is not something i care about and don't even deem it hard, would be like someone bragging that they made it to level 10. Galactic seasons was supposed to be THE "hard" content of that patch. Nothing to do with balance when now you have many more tools to deal with it. If anything the balancing is bad but because it was not adjusted to the new tools the player has that make it easier

My man, we have numbers that verify the balance has been messed up. Again, it doesn't matter if you subjectively think it's easier; we have hard, verifiable, objective numbers that show the balancing is messed up. If you wanna use "it feels" as support for your argument against verifiable numbers, than I'll say it feels like you're lying and haven't done what you claim to have! But that's irrelevant, because it's purely subjective on my part; just as it "feeling" easier for you is purely subjective on your part. 

[tsteenburg]

There is still a lingering issue of the way they implemented gear stats in level-locked content with 7.0. On the PTS prelaunch, doing the Eternal Championship with even 324 gear (so near max at the time) was murder. The crit cap has an outsized effect on crit dependent specs like focus/rage. In 6.x, I could face roll through it and not die. I can still beat it, but it takes more care and sometimes the occasional death. 

[DaddyAlduin]

2 minutes ago, tsteenburg said:

There is still a lingering issue of the way they implemented gear stats in level-locked content with 7.0. On the PTS prelaunch, doing the Eternal Championship with even 324 gear (so near max at the time) was murder. The crit cap has an outsized effect on crit dependent specs like focus/rage. In 6.x, I could face roll through it and not die. I can still beat it, but it takes more care and sometimes the occasional death. 

Exactly! I'm not saying the difficulty on its own is a bad thing. I'm saying that, with the current stat and enemy scaling, the encounters are not functioning or balanced as designed. 

[xxSHOONYxx]

12 minutes ago, DaddyAlduin said:

My man, we have numbers that verify the balance has been messed up. Again, it doesn't matter if you subjectively think it's easier; we have hard, verifiable, objective numbers that show the balancing is messed up. If you wanna use "it feels" as support for your argument against verifiable numbers, than I'll say it feels like you're lying and haven't done what you claim to have! But that's irrelevant, because it's purely subjective on my part; just as it "feeling" easier for you is purely subjective on your part. 

My guy, did you even go inside the eternal championship to check your "verifiable objective numbers"?
Because i just did for you, so here they are for you.

Player stats

Level 65 (2016)

- HP: 80k

- Mastery: 5,276

- Endurance: 6,400

- Power: 2,845

- Presence: 3,762

- Damage (Pri): ... - 3,250

Now
- HP: 93k
- Mastery 5141
- Endurance 6362
-  Power 3478
- Damage 3154

Mastery and primary damage is a little bit smaller (3% less on damage and 2.5% on mastery) but higher power (18% more power). So you see my guy, you do more damage than when it was released. Now add tacticals and skill changes like 60% aoe dr and now you have it. More damage and more health than in 4.0 with better skills and tactical, it is easier than it was in 4.0

[DaddyAlduin]

11 minutes ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

My guy, did you even go inside the eternal championship to check your "verifiable objective numbers"?
Because i just did for you, so here they are for you.

Player stats

Level 65 (2016)

- HP: 80k

- Mastery: 5,276

- Endurance: 6,400

- Power: 2,845

- Presence: 3,762

- Damage (Pri): ... - 3,250

Now
- HP: 93k
- Mastery 5141
- Endurance 6362
-  Power 3478
- Damage 3154

Mastery and primary damage is a little bit smaller (3% less on damage and 2.5% on mastery) but higher power (18% more power). So you see my guy, you do more damage than when it was released. Now add tacticals and skill changes like 60% aoe dr and now you have it. More damage and more health than in 4.0 with better skills and tactical, it is easier than it was in 4.0

Cool; now add in that cast-times have been changed, companions are much weaker, and the boss' stats have had a massive increase, and you're starting to get the big picture! Again, the issue isn't with the difficulty; it's with the fact the balancing is busted compared to what it was designed for. Like my boi, as I said before, player skill, and to a lesser extent stats, play an equal role to the design of a fight in MMO's, and the championship is simply not functioning or balanced as designed. 

Edited March 26 by DaddyAlduin

[DaddyAlduin]

Also worth mentioning; due to how the level scaling works, if you have anything below 344, your stats are going to be significantly lower than those you listed there. 

[xxSHOONYxx]

21 minutes ago, DaddyAlduin said:

Cool; now add in that not everyone has 344 gear

Then get it, it's more accessible to get it now compared to 4.0 BiS. 
 

21 minutes ago, DaddyAlduin said:

cast-times have been changed

What cast times? GCD? You can go to 1.3 gcd for eternal championship too, same as in 6.0 you needed a set for capped and uncapped content.

21 minutes ago, DaddyAlduin said:

companions are much weaker

Eternal championship release
https://www.swtor.com/patchnotes/532016/game-update-4.4-profit-and-plunder 

Companion nerf
https://www.swtor.com/patchnotes/11172015/game-update-4.0.2-patch-notes

I wonder who was lucky enough to do eternal championship with the op companions when enternal championship came like 5 months after the nerfs.

21 minutes ago, DaddyAlduin said:

and the boss' stats have had a massive increase

Did not check those because it's a slog and boring to do eternal championship, but if your "verifiable objective numbers" showed me anything, is that i wouldn't be surprised if that is wrong too. Swtor got a 10% hp nerf, i don't remember if it was to everything or just op bosses. 


And you're starting to get the big picture!

Edited March 26 by xxSHOONYxx

[DaddyAlduin]

6 minutes ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

Then get it, it's more accessible to get it now compared to 4.0. 

Considering 344 gear wasn't a thing in 4.0, and the punishment for not having the max gear with level scaling is much harsher than being a couple iLevels behind should truly be.

7 minutes ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

What cast times? GCD? You can go to 1.3 gcd for eternal championship too, same as in 6.0 you needed a set for capped and uncapped content.

The cast times for multiple abilities and GCD.

11 minutes ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

Eternal championship release
https://www.swtor.com/patchnotes/532016/game-update-4.4-profit-and-plunder 

Companion nerf
https://www.swtor.com/patchnotes/11172015/game-update-4.0.2-patch-notes

I wonder who was lucky enough to do eternal championship with the op companions when enternal championship came like 5 months after the nerfs.

You just gonna ignore the fact that 7.0 contained a significant companion nerf that multiple people complained about? The nerf I was obviously talking about? Nah, let's highlight the one that I was very obviously not talking about lelelel

 

14 minutes ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

Did not check those because it's a slog and borinq to do eternal championship, but if your "verifiable objective numbers" showed me anything, is that i wouldn't be surprised if that is wrong too. Swtor got a 10% hp nerf, i don't remember if it was to everything or just op bosses. 

This may surprise you, but those verifiable and objective numbers include the boss stats; which were on the same thread, within the same post, as the post that contained the player stats.

[xxSHOONYxx]

8 minutes ago, DaddyAlduin said:

Considering 344 gear wasn't a thing in 4.0, and the punishment for not having the max gear with level scaling is much harsher than being a couple iLevels behind should truly be

Every expansion has BiS, if you want to compare stats then do it BiS to BiS, not 4.0 BiS to something.
 

9 minutes ago, DaddyAlduin said:

The cast times for multiple abilities and GCD.

Get a new set then and you get 1.3 gcd.
 

10 minutes ago, DaddyAlduin said:

You just gonna ignore the fact that 7.0 contained a significant companion nerf that multiple people complained about? The nerf I was obviously talking about? Nah, let's highlight the one that I was very obviously not talking about lelelel

The big nerf people talk about companions was on 4.0 because at 4.0 release they were really broken. On 7.0 release as far as i know was a bug that was detected fairly "fast" and they were working on it (https://forums.swtor.com/topic/920759-game-update-701-known-issues/#comment-9693713). Or the bug that some companions were broken, but was a bug not a nerf.
 

28 minutes ago, DaddyAlduin said:

This may surprise you, but those verifiable and objective numbers include the boss stats; which were on the same thread, within the same post, as the post that contained the player stats.

Just on the first one because not going through that slog of 10 boring bosses.

 

Eternal Championship Bosses

1. Arlaia Zayzen: 129k (2016) -- 159k (2022 / 7.0)                (this is 158.978)

-- Medical Unit: 33k (2016) -- 44k (2022 / 7.0)                       (this is 40.530)

-- Combat Unit: 29k (2016) -- 39k (2022 / 7.0)                       (this is 35.464) 

Even the hp numbers are wrong my guy. Seems like those "verifiable objective numbers" are having some issues to be verified. And that hp higher than 4.0 is still offset by the power increase. Maybe my 344 gear intimidates the npcs so much they get weaker too.

It was fun proving you wrong but now i'm bored, or soon you might start questioning my grammar because you won't have other things to say. 
Anyway, good luck with the nerf if the devs decide to listen to you, they have dumbed down the game so much they might do it again

 

[DaddyAlduin]

36 minutes ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

Every expansion has BiS, if you want to compare stats then do it BiS to BiS, not 4.0 BiS to something.

Completely missed my point my boi. Yes, every expansion has a BiS; but the penalty for not having 344 is very skewed compared to the penalty that having a couple ilevels below whatever the max was back on release.

 

36 minutes ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

Get a new set then and you get 1.3 gcd

 

What a good thing to add to this conversation that didn't completely ignore my point.

 

36 minutes ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

The big nerf people talk about companions was on 4.0 because at 4.0 release they were really broken. On 7.0 release as far as i know was a bug that was detected fairly "fast" and they were working on it (https://forums.swtor.com/topic/920759-game-update-701-known-issues/#comment-9693713). Or the bug that some companions were broken, but was a bug not a nerf.

Except it's a bug that was never fixed, or was working as intended and misrepresented as a bug; it has never been addressed in the patch notes, and it is still something I see people complain about regularly.

36 minutes ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

Just on the first one because not going through that slog of 10 boring bosses.

 

Eternal Championship Bosses

1. Arlaia Zayzen: 129k (2016) -- 159k (2022 / 7.0)                (this is 158.978)

-- Medical Unit: 33k (2016) -- 44k (2022 / 7.0)                       (this is 40.530)

-- Combat Unit: 29k (2016) -- 39k (2022 / 7.0)                       (this is 35.464) 

Even the hp numbers are wrong my guy. Seems like those "verifiable objective numbers" are having some issues to be verified. And that hp higher than 4.0 is still offset by the power increase. Maybe my 344 gear intimidates the npcs so much they get weaker too.

Do... do you think 158,978 is a realistically different number than 159k? My boi, come on. Not to mention that even if they were incorrect, I'd still be correct; the balancing of the fights have changed into a form unintended by design 

36 minutes ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

It was fun proving you wrong but now i'm bored, or soon you might start questioning my grammar because you won't have other things to say. 
Anyway, good luck with the nerf if the devs decide to listen to you, they have dumbed down the game so much they might do it again

 

Unfortunately for you, even if I was wrong i wouldn't attack you personally or your grammar or anything. I appreciate you doing the very thing you're accusing me of potentially doing by way of Implying I'm that kind of person and baselessly accusing me of wanting the game dumbed down though, so thanks for that!

 

Edited March 26 by DaddyAlduin

[DaddyAlduin]

Also, because I was looking into it last night; round 6 and 7 at the very least have the health numbers correct as well; but alas, I can only hope you verify it yourself.

[JakRoanin]

There are people who will always deny that any content is difficult or challenging for anyone. Unfortunately, real life and this game doesn't work that way. The SOLO Galactic Championship is a nightmare. Not to mention the companions are screwed up now! 

[DaddyAlduin]

4 minutes ago, JakRoanin said:

There are people who will always deny that any content is difficult or challenging for anyone. Unfortunately, real life and this game doesn't work that way. The SOLO Galactic Championship is a nightmare. Not to mention the companions are screwed up now! 

It's not even it being difficult that's the issue; its that it's much more difficult now that the balance and design of the game has shifted so much, resulting in the balance of the whole thing being entirely messed up!

[JakRoanin]

That too. However, I've never been able to get passed the guy and his worm because of my disability.

[Strathkin]

10 hours ago, Rohndogg said:

Top tier reply. It doesn't matter if you can technically complete something by smashing your head against the wall enough times, but that doesn't mean it's working as intended. It's basically unachievable for the vast majority of the current players. I haven't touched it on most of my characters because it's not worth it.

I'd agree, while some may complete SOLO because they in 344 Rakata Gear fully Augmented, with a Influence 50 Ranged Companion, or have a Item Level upwards of 337 etc...  ...it's well out of it's intended design!  It's far harder in 7.0 with the ability Pruning, the slightly longer cast times many classes have.

• Realize the second problem too, is earning the 14:59 speed run challenge "Sprint Champion" in SOLO Eternal Championship! 

They really should re-evaluate this for sure, if not for the first reason, then at least surely for the second!  

4 hours ago, JakRoanin said:

That too. However, I've never been able to get passed the guy and his worm because of my disability.

Well find a friend to run it with you, or an acquaintance at least your earn the General Achievements, then just choose SOLO+, you'll both want at least 335 item level and a companion that's (Level 50) at least.  Running with 1 other person you'll at least get the General completions, along with Bowdar for completing all 10 rounds. 

The only real reason for doing SOLO is mostly because you need Story achievements. 

 

Edited March 27 by Strathkin
Grammar

[Toraak]

2 hours ago, DaddyAlduin said:

It's not even it being difficult that's the issue; its that it's much more difficult now that the balance and design of the game has shifted so much, resulting in the balance of the whole thing being entirely messed up!

I did eternal championship during 4.0, and now. The balance feels about the same if not easier to me as well. The only thing I never accomplished was the sprint champion, and that always felt like 1-2 bosses always kept me from doing that. Not due to difficulty (granted those 2 were more difficult then the rest), but from a mechanic standpoint The 6th and 7th boss always took me longer. Granted I don't play the specs that most ran for that being Vengeance Jugg (for reflect). I generally play deception or virulence when I run it.

 

To me the rest of the bosses melt fairly easily.

 

Edit: for the record I completed it in 340 Hyde/Zeek gear just last week, and not 344 Rakata.

Edited March 27 by Toraak

[JakRoanin]

47 minutes ago, Strathkin said:

Well find a friend to run it with you, at least your earn the General Achievements, then just choose SOLO+, you'll at least get the completion along with Bowdar for completing all 10 rounds. 

The only real reason for doing SOLO is mostly because you need Story achievements.  There's one for every class in Story, along with the Sprint Champion which is the biggest reason they need to reconsider this!

 

I am so sick of being told "find a friend" First, I don't make "friends" with online strangers. Pleasent acquaintances, yes. Friends? No! Second, it's supposed to be SOLO content, meaning ONE person. One no more no less. That's what it's SUPPOSED to do! If a person can't physically do it, it's BROKE! 

[Strathkin]

2 hours ago, Toraak said:

Edit: for the record I completed it in 340 Hyde/Zeek gear just last week, and not 344 Rakata.

Yes your correct, you can complete Solo if your close to 337 Item Level, yet depending on skill, abilities it make take you several more rounds on some Boss.  There at least 2 Boss with touchy mechanics, and if you don't defeat the Adds quick enough, or work Boss down enough it results in a wipe.  

So it's clearly a bit harder, because of ability pruning, cast times on abilities increasing, and some companions nerf's all around 7.0 even if it seems less noticeable, once you around 340 or more.

The point I was making above, is Sprint Champion is far harder to earn; a core reason they need to re-evaluate!  

Edited March 27 by Strathkin
Grammar

[Luciferior]

I hope they leave it right as it is tbh I did eternal bit on my smuggler slinger 336 gear on sharpshooter with akaavi as my comp did I die a few times? Sure did

It was towards the last few rounds I actually had to pay attention to some of the mechanics during some of the multi add fights because honestly some of the first few rounds were so easy I didnt even bother trying to figure out the mechanics they were using If they had any I just started shooting

I also want to say I did this before slinger/sniper got their heal back for being in cover which isnt much to begin with 

Akaavi isnt exactly a top tier healer companion either she was r50 though 

I am not some high tier end game player that can beat everything solo my best accomplishment is soloing the fr3-edom world boss on my Arsenal merc and tbh that WB seemed really easy when you understand the mechanics tbh I wouldnt even call it a accomplishment looking back on it

 

There are aspects of the game I just cant do whether its solo or if I joined a group for those HM Ops and I am perfectly fine with that I dont need to be able to do all the content in the game whether its solo related or not

The beginning part of the game is so watered down and easy when people progress past them and experience the rest of the game they get slapped with a reality check and have to respawn and start paying attention to whats happening 

I realize some folks have different reasons for why this particular content maybe harder for them and I can be reasonable to an extent at the same time though those same people might need to reevaluate their own ability 

Yal that want this content nerfed I dont want this to sound personal or harsh when I say it but I am going to regardless its time to get good or get some friends who can teach ya to get good

Having the content nerfed because some of you cant complete it when others have isnt a solution 

To quote a line from Akaavi as it feels relevant here "We can only grow stronger thru conflict vs worthy foes" and I feel like that can relate to content as If I only play easier content or content that has been nerfed how can I progress and get better if I dont challenge my self?

Sometimes you gota die to figure out what killed you and how to beat it ... I have died countless times on this game and I do not have a shed of shame admitting it..

Dying repeatedly allowed me to learn from my mistakes and you think I soloed that Fr3-dom WB on the first time? Hell no that turd nuked my carcass 15+ times and gloated with its cheesy lines right afterward pissing me off to no end

Yet I persisted I adapted my tactics overcame adversity its self each time He killed me I progressed further and further along till I saw all of his mechanics and learned how to beat them

And on the final fight I watched for every aoe every visible mechanic and sure enough I beat that ass and break danced with my akaavi on that droids remains I didnt get crap for loot but I was content that I learned how to progress to that point

The moral of the story is sometimes you gota get beat up to progress quitting or asking for nerfs isnt going to help you move forward its just going to hold you back....

 

Edited March 27 by Luciferior

[DaddyAlduin]

27 minutes ago, Luciferior said:

I hope they leave it right as it is tbh I did eternal bit on my smuggler slinger 336 gear on sharpshooter with akaavi as my comp did I die a few times? Sure did

It was towards the last few rounds I actually had to pay attention to some of the mechanics during some of the multi add fights because honestly some of the first few rounds were so easy I didnt even bother trying to figure out the mechanics they were using If they had any I just started shooting

I also want to say I did this before slinger/sniper got their heal back for being in cover which isnt much to begin with 

Akaavi isnt exactly a top tier healer companion either she was r50 though 

I am not some high tier end game player that can beat everything solo my best accomplishment is soloing the fr3-edom world boss on my Arsenal merc and tbh that WB seemed really easy when you understand the mechanics tbh I wouldnt even call it a accomplishment looking back on it

 

There are aspects of the game I just cant do whether its solo or if I joined a group for those HM Ops and I am perfectly fine with that I dont need to be able to do all the content in the game whether its solo related or not

The beginning part of the game is so watered down and easy when people progress past them and experience the rest of the game they get slapped with a reality check and have to respawn and start paying attention to whats happening 

I realize some folks have different reasons for why this particular content maybe harder for them and I can be reasonable to an extent at the same time though those same people might need to reevaluate their own ability 

Yal that want this content nerfed I dont want this to sound personal or harsh when I say it but I am going to regardless its time to get good or get some friends who can teach ya to get good

Having the content nerfed because some of you cant complete it when others have isnt a solution 

To quote a line from Akaavi as it feels relevant here "We can only grow stronger thru conflict vs worthy foes" and I feel like that can relate to content as If I only play easier content or content that has been nerfed how can I progress and get better if I dont challenge my self?

Sometimes you gota die to figure out what killed you and how to beat it ... I have died countless times on this game and I do not have a shed of shame admitting it..

Dying repeatedly allowed me to learn from my mistakes and you think I soloed that Fr3-dom WB on the first time? Hell no that turd nuked my carcass 15+ times and gloated with its cheesy lines right afterward pissing me off to no end

Yet I persisted I adapted my tactics overcame adversity its self each time He killed me I progressed further and further along till I saw all of his mechanics and learned how to beat them

And on the final fight I watched for every aoe every visible mechanic and sure enough I beat that ass and break danced with my akaavi on that droids remains I didnt get crap for loot but I was content that I learned how to progress to that point

The moral of the story is sometimes you gota get beat up to progress quitting or asking for nerfs isnt going to help you move forward its just going to hold you back....

 

The whole git gud argument has already been addressed here, and it doesn't apply; getting good means learning the bosses mechanics, refining your skills, and learning to overcome adversity. It does not apply when said challenge has its balance all out of whack due to level and enemy scaling resulting in the balance the fight was designed around no longer being applicable. There's a difference between "This is challenging, but fair" and "This is arbitrarily challenging due to the balance of the fight being messed up" and this situation falls in the later category!

[Luciferior]

@DaddyAlduin I did it on a sharpshooter gunsligher at class that at the time had no self heals 

The person who made this thread was a sorc if I recall correctly ....Sorc has plenty of heals and I have no doubt in mind madness sorc can solo eternal championship in its sleep

the only understandable notion in regard to sorc is if the OP is a healer sorc then they are relying on the companion for damage and thats a different issue all together 

Rechecking the thread posting it sure looks like it was you daddy who made this thread and lightning sorc? Im going to be blunt if you cant do this on a lightning sorc you are not as experienced as you think you are period..

Lightning sorc is what one of the best if not the best ranged burst spec in the game? It can self heal ok? adds cant hurt you thru bubble there was kolto packs around if I recall

Edited March 27 by Luciferior

[DaddyAlduin]

Just now, Luciferior said:

@DaddyAlduin I did it on a sharpshooter gunsligher at class that at the time had no self heals 

The person who made this thread was a sorc if I recall correctly ....Sorc has plenty of heals and I have no doubt in mind madness sorc can solo eternal championship in its sleep

the only understandable notion in regard to sorc is if the OP is a healer sorc then they are relying on the companion for damage and thats a different issue all together 

 

I'm op lol, and lightning sorc specifically. And you're right, they do have plenty of heals! But you can't heal through an insta-kill, and it's just not FUN to have to deal with a fight that has had its balance thrown out of whack, as is the case here.