Reevaluate the difficulty of the Eternal Championship

[JakRoanin]

2 hours ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

You already have the solo version easier. Is called solo+.
Now if you want the rewards of solo but way easier, what will come next? NiM achievements and rewards but in solo mode and way easier?

Oh please you know I don't want NiM achievements and rewards. We've talked about it! I don't even want SM or Vet Achievements in OPS because I'm not able to do them period! I don't even want heroic-4 dumbed down! I just want to be able to do SOLO content on my own!

Do you think I am so selfish not to mention stupid to think I deserve that Ugly Dread Masters helmet or those freaky wings? If you do, that's why I despise the lack of understanding.

[VegaMist]

1 hour ago, Traceguy said:

I'm waiting until I get to Zotar to make an official opinion. The furthest I've made it one night was Drake and Nocturno. I didn't know I needed to pick up Drake's belt in order to survive Nocturno's enrage. So after more than a dozen retries I gave up. That's one example of how not knowing the mechanics will get you killed. I'm just a little scared reading these posts though hearing how your companion will die almost instantly if standing in AOE.

I think class though may determine how easy things are. I can't imagine a Rage Jugg's Obliterate will work well against Drake/Nocturno. Some of those fights force you to be in melee range too. So a range caster might have a difficult time.

Ranged usually has an easier time due to a few mechanics in some rounds. However, the last toon I've done it on was my Sith Guardian, so melee can do it as well once you learn the mechanics. I do recommend watching some videos, so you know what to expects (I did when I was initially struggling with it, and it really helped).

[DaddyAlduin]

3 minutes ago, JakRoanin said:

Do you think I am so selfish not to mention stupid to think I deserve that Ugly Dread Masters helmet or those freaky wings? If you do, that's why I despise the lack of understanding.

My guy please, good faith. All you are doing is souring people towards your opinion, and its adding nothing to the discussion.

[Crystal_Mind]

Your stat post with % increase marked out tells me you don't really understand what I (and others who have mentioned it) was getting at with regard to player power and skills...

Alduin, you started this thread by saying that the fights were too difficult and contained unintended oneshots, therefore the balance must be broken. Since then, you have cleared it, and it's been found that the oneshot you referenced was actually a misunderstood mechanic, but you persist in repeating "the fights were designed for a specific balance that is no longer applicable" like it's a self-supporting statement. Just because something has changed, does not mean it is broken, and the burden of proof is on you.

(Moreover... this is BioSword we're talking about. Old content gets incidentally rebalanced at the start of an expansion, and then ignored for the next 4-5 years. And if it's something they really don't want to deal with, they just pretend it doesn't exist--see Colicoid War Games and Kuat Drive Yards--Expecting otherwise is setting yourself up for a world of bitterness).

Stats are one part of the picture, but they're a very small part of it. The reference to 6.x scaling was part of a larger comment on the scaling of the championship over its history; since my intent did not come through, I'll restate. The bosses were scaled one way in 2016. They were then upscaled to 70 for 5.x. Then they were downscaled back to 65 in 6.x. They have the same scaling now as they did last expansion--a bit more than launch, less than when they were level 70--however, last expansion we were inflicted with the tragedy that was VE stacks. In full gear, I had 139k hp in the championship on deception last expansion (entirely because of VE stacks and a passive endurance buff). It was a cakewalk, and people complained even then that it was "too hard," as they have done since it was launched.

I have been clear that I believe it may be slightly more difficult than at release. I have been equally clear that I don't believe the changes over the last eight years have resulted in broken balance. To that point, I agree with ZUHFB that there is nothing in the fights that is numerically unfair. The entire championship is mechanics. It is optional. There is a co-op version if you're struggling. Most people I know can complete the Championship solo with a little effort. Those who can't tend to be the same players who struggle in Story Mode ops, whether due to a lack of skill or due to physical limitations.
 

Spoiler

...And one more thing, jumping in on your reply to ZUHFB.

Just now, DaddyAlduin said:

I'm not moving the goalpost; you stated, with no room for interpretation, that damage and survivability of the PC do not matter; I explained how that is demonstrably false.

1 hour ago, DaddyAlduin said:

If the bosses had 27 million health, and the player had 1 health doing on average 1 damage, it would matter.

Your so called "explanation" is called strawman & hyperbole. You know full well what ZUHFB was getting at.

[Crystal_Mind]

Since I see them typing I will actually make a double-post instead of editing.

Serious question for @DaddyAlduin -- let's say the Championship launched a couple weeks ago as Level 80 content. It's advertised as a progressive challenge for solo players with a co-op option for those who are struggling (or who just don't care). Would you still feel that the balance is broken?

Forget about the old numbers. Forget about the current scaled numbers. Just think about your personal experience learning to fight through this the first time, and how it felt. How hard the bosses were hitting, the mechanics you had to do, etc.

If all that was happening at Level 80, what specifically would you call out as unbalanced?

[ZUHFB]

14 minutes ago, DaddyAlduin said:

Boss fights and their mechanics are definitely designed with a specific balance in mind? That's just simply, objectively, how MMO's are designed.

No. Mechanics happen during a fight, balance is a numerical thing. If a boss gets nerfed and now deals only 10% damage but everybody is dying to dispels not happening then this is not a balance issue. Mechanics happen separately from balance, literally Izax example. Give him 50% less HP and nerf Head Cannon by 50% and people will still not clear the boss.

The mechanics still have to be played REGARDLESS of balance, if this is not the case the mechanics do not exist.

20 minutes ago, DaddyAlduin said:

don't assume the reason that people are here, don't automatically try and accuse them of whatever it is you're trying to accuse people of

Ok but why die to mechanics then? I do not understand, I am 100% sure that this cannot be a numerical issue. There's no way anybody deals less damage than a 169 guardian tank. It has to be a mechanical issue, people do not know what is going on in the fights and (obviously) have no intention of getting said knowledge. Tell me what fight you struggle with and I'll tell you why without having seen the gameplay. 

I've been playing with so many people and have recruited so many people over the years, it's obvious when people say they have keybinds to get into a team but then start clicking. I can see it without seeing their screen from the way they move, players who can also see this know what I mean. 

Also I checked up on sprint master and that is still doable, but I think it could be very tough for a lot of people.

[VegaMist]

4 minutes ago, ZUHFB said:

I've been playing with so many people and have recruited so many people over the years, it's obvious when people say they have keybinds to get into a team but then start clicking. I can see it without seeing their screen from the way they move, players who can also see this know what I mean. 

BTW, I'm a clicker and can still clear it. I have all of the keybinds set up (on both keypad and mouse), and still can not reliably use them on a continuous basis, probably, for the same reason as why I still need to look at a keyboard when typing (and I've been typing way longer than playing SWTOR).

[DaddyAlduin]

2 minutes ago, Crystal_Mind said:

Your stat post with % increase marked out tells me you don't really understand what I (and others who have mentioned it) was getting at with regard to player power and skills...

Player power has remained relatively stagnant; I've openly stated and advocated that players will have had their skill increase within the many years since its release; its others who have claimed the opposite!

2 minutes ago, Crystal_Mind said:

Alduin, you started this thread by saying that the fights were too difficult and contained unintended oneshots, therefore the balance must be broken. Since then, you have cleared it, and it's been found that the oneshot you referenced was actually a misunderstood mechanic, but you persist in repeating "the fights were designed for a specific balance that is no longer applicable" like it's a self-supporting statement. Just because something has changed, does not mean it is broken, and the burden of proof is on you.

I've clarified multiple times that the one shot I was complaining about was not the Doom Droids's pulse; and me clearing it has nothing to do with what this discussion is about.

And you're right, just because something has changed, does not mean it's broken; this entire discussion is based around the premise of discovering whether or not the changes it has undergone have resulted in its balance being messed up! Me simply stating "it messed up" has the exact same worth as you saying "no it ain't" which is why we are here discussing it!

2 minutes ago, Crystal_Mind said:

(Moreover... this is BioSword we're talking about. Old content gets incidentally rebalanced at the start of an expansion, and then ignored for the next 4-5 years. And if it's something they really don't want to deal with, they just pretend it doesn't exist--see Colicoid War Games and Kuat Drive Yards--Expecting otherwise is setting yourself up for a world of bitterness).

 

Even if absolutely nothing balancewise changes, I still wouldn't regret starting this thread! I think I've had quite a few worthwhile discussions, and whilst not everyone may agree with what I'm saying, I still think it's been worth it to get their perspectives and reasons for why they disagree with me!

2 minutes ago, Crystal_Mind said:

 

Stats are one part of the picture, but they're a very small part of it.

Yes, which is why I've brought up the core design changes that would have had an effect on the balancing of the fight!

2 minutes ago, Crystal_Mind said:

The reference to 6.x scaling was part of a larger comment on the scaling of the championship over its history; since my intent did not come through, I'll restate. The bosses were scaled one way in 2016. They were then upscaled to 70 for 5.x. Then they were downscaled back to 65 in 6.x. They have the same scaling now as they did last expansion--a bit more than launch, less than when they were level 70--however, last expansion we were inflicted with the tragedy that was VE stacks. In full gear, I had 139k hp in the championship on deception last expansion (entirely because of VE stacks and a passive endurance buff). It was a cakewalk, and people complained even then that it was "too hard," as they have done since it was launched.

And you're right, it has indeed gone through multiple iterations as the game has gone through updates that have affected the core gameplay loop; which is why we should compare to its state upon release, as that is the best example of have of what it was originally designed to be!

2 minutes ago, Crystal_Mind said:

I have been clear that I believe it may be slightly more difficult than at release. I have been equally clear that I don't believe the changes over the last eight years have resulted in broken balance. To that point, I agree with ZUHFB that there is nothing in the fights that is numerically unfair. The entire championship is mechanics. It is optional. There is a co-op version if you're struggling. Most people I know can complete the Championship solo with a little effort. Those who can't tend to be the same players who struggle in Story Mode ops, whether due to a lack of skill or due to physical limitations.

And you are entirely free to hold those beliefs, just as I am free to hold mine; that's why we are here discussing it, in an attempt to figure out if the balance has truly been messed up or not!

2 minutes ago, Crystal_Mind said:

 

  Hide contents

...And one more thing, jumping in on your reply to ZUHFB.

Your so called "explanation" is called strawman & hyperbole. You know full well what ZUHFB was getting at.

That wasn't a strawman; it was a hyperbole, just as his original statement was one. He made an extreme claim in saying "the damage and survivability of classes does not matter" so I used an extreme example to show that the claim doesn't hold up.

[DaddyAlduin]

1 hour ago, Crystal_Mind said:

Since I see them typing I will actually make a double-post instead of editing.

Serious question for @DaddyAlduin -- let's say the Championship launched a couple weeks ago as Level 80 content. It's advertised as a progressive challenge for solo players with a co-op option for those who are struggling (or who just don't care). Would you still feel that the balance is broken?

Forget about the old numbers. Forget about the current scaled numbers. Just think about your personal experience learning to fight through this the first time, and how it felt. How hard the bosses were hitting, the mechanics you had to do, etc.

If all that was happening at Level 80, what specifically would you call out as unbalanced?

I wouldn't believe it's unbalanced at all, and I would push back against anyone advocating for a nerf!

I'll stress it again; my issue isn't difficulty, it isn't that it's content intended to not be completable by anyone; it's that I believe that the balance no longer fits the original design. 

If BS was to come out within the next 5 minutes and say that it was balanced exactly as designed, I would have absolutely no complaints and would stand behind their decision and the EC's balancing without question!

 

Weird that it was saying I was typing; mayhaps a side effect of me using mobile? Obviously not something important or even related to the discussion, but I'm sure you can tell this is my first time using the forum and as such am not aware of all its features and quirks lel

[DaddyAlduin]

1 hour ago, ZUHFB said:

No. Mechanics happen during a fight, balance is a numerical thing. If a boss gets nerfed and now deals only 10% damage but everybody is dying to dispels not happening then this is not a balance issue. Mechanics happen separately from balance, literally Izax example. Give him 50% less HP and nerf Head Cannon by 50% and people will still not clear the boss.

Balance is directly tied to how mechanics play out my man!

Enrage timers are a mechanic; yet if the fight has not been properly balanced, it becomes more difficult to manage them than intended.

If a fight has a mechanic related to burning down ads, and those ads are overtuned compared to the design, than the mechanic becomes harder than intended to manage.

DPS checks are a mechanic *solely* based off of stat numbers!

 

1 hour ago, ZUHFB said:

The mechanics still have to be played REGARDLESS of balance, if this is not the case the mechanics do not exist.

Correct; but balance has an effect on how those mechanics are played!

1 hour ago, ZUHFB said:

Ok but why die to mechanics then? I do not understand, I am 100% sure that this cannot be a numerical issue. There's no way anybody deals less damage than a 169 guardian tank. It has to be a mechanical issue, people do not know what is going on in the fights and (obviously) have no intention of getting said knowledge. Tell me what fight you struggle with and I'll tell you why without having seen the gameplay. 

I've been playing with so many people and have recruited so many people over the years, it's obvious when people say they have keybinds to get into a team but then start clicking. I can see it without seeing their screen from the way they move, players who can also see this know what I mean. 

Also I checked up on sprint master and that is still doable, but I think it could be very tough for a lot of people.

The rest of this isn't really something I will reply to, as it would essentially be me and you going "I say this" "Well I say this!" and that's not really the type of discussion that leads anywhere

[Crystal_Mind]

Just now, DaddyAlduin said:

I wouldn't believe it's unbalanced at all, and I would push back against anyone advocating for a nerf!

Then I'm done here.

If you don't think the experience feels unbalanced, and you have no complaints about the mechanics, and there's not a single specific thing you can point to that needs adjusted, then your position is incomprehensible to me.

[DaddyAlduin]

23 minutes ago, Crystal_Mind said:

Then I'm done here.

If you don't think the experience feels unbalanced, and you have no complaints about the mechanics, and there's not a single specific thing you can point to that needs adjusted, then your position is incomprehensible to me.

My brother in christ, our entire discussion up-to this point has been my highlighting specific things that have led me believe it is not balanced correctly, and us discussing whether my beliefs are accurate or not! Would you like for me to go over it again? If I did a bad job of explaining anything in specific, I am more than willing to go more in-depth and explain my thoughts process if you want!

Edited March 29 by DaddyAlduin

[ZUHFB]

7 hours ago, DaddyAlduin said:

Correct; but balance has an effect on how those mechanics are played!

Surely you don't mind giving an example of where eternal championship is unbalanced? What boss is too strong, and what do you die to?

8 hours ago, VegaMist said:

I'm a clicker and can still clear it.

I'm not trying to tell you how to play the game but in my opinion someone clicking is equivalent to them not trying which then invalidates any concern or complaints about balance. You are of course free to disagree with my assessment, but ask yourself this: how many clickers are in echo, liquid and method? Or even in this game, failure, better now, farming components? ZERO. What abput PvP, how many players in PvP are top3 and clicking? One, but he's shady maybe wintrader. No player in these teams was clicking its not by chance (yes I know they all disbanded I have no idea whos the best guilds these days).

Again, not saying you should but it is worth it. Muscle memory builds quicker than one might think.

[VegaMist]

1 hour ago, ZUHFB said:

I'm not trying to tell you how to play the game but in my opinion someone clicking is equivalent to them not trying which then invalidates any concern or complaints about balance.

You may want to check my other posts in this thread, since I was anything BUT complaining about the balance in EC - in fact, quite the opposite.

And I'm in PVP on an almost daily basis (WZs). I rarely have top damage since that has never been my focus, but I am often quite instrumental at getting that win for the team.

And speaking of practice, my boyfriend tried to train me on key binds - didn't work very well. As I said earlier, I still need to glance onto keyboard when I type even though I'm on a computer all day every day (job related). He also never really felt that clicking was holding me back much - otherwise we wouldn't be in this game for so long (him since Beta, and I'm for 11+ years). He himself relies on key binds. Btw, back in the day when we were a part of a very active PVP guild, none of our guildmates ever complained about my fighting style - we were originally invited after they observed our performance in PVP. My first build was a tank, so I got used to early on to not just fight, but also switch guard as needed while doing so. I don't think I could ever deliver a performance like you did in that video, but I can pull my weight reasonably well.

So, I would recommend not to automatically disregard everyone who is a clicker - some of us may surprise you.

Edited March 29 by VegaMist

[ZUHFB]

Look, I know I'm never going to convince anybody. Just think about why nobody that is really good is clicking.

I'll stop about it now.

[VegaMist]

5 hours ago, ZUHFB said:

Look, I know I'm never going to convince anybody. Just think about why nobody that is really good is clicking.

I'll stop about it now.

That's a very vague statement and depends on your definition of "really good". Is it the highest DPS possible? That's often a losing strategy in WZs - I've been in plenty of them when we overcame a much stronger team DPS-wise, by being strategic. You're operating under an assumption that muscle memory works the same for everyone - it doesn't. It's the same why not everyone can become a really good musician, or painter, or anything for that matter. Ludwig van Beethoven wrote some of his best work while being deaf which would normally be considered impossible for any composer. This is not to convince you that clicking is in any way superior. All I'm saying is don't disregard a player until you've seen them in action, regardless of their play style.

[DaddyAlduin]

12 hours ago, ZUHFB said:

Surely you don't mind giving an example of where eternal championship is unbalanced? What boss is too strong, and what do you die to?

I've highlighted multiple reasons I believe the EC is unbalanced in this thread, and i can go over them again if you wish, but it isn't as simple as "This specific attack does more damage than it should!"

 

Are you asking me to go over every death I had?

Edited March 29 by DaddyAlduin

[ZUHFB]

11 hours ago, DaddyAlduin said:

I've highlighted multiple reasons I believe the EC is unbalanced in this thread, and i can go over them again if you wish, but it isn't as simple as "This specific attack does more damage than it should!"

 

Are you asking me to go over every death I had?

Example: "I think Doom Droid is too strong because its basic attacks kill me", or "The burn phase at 4th(?) boss is too tight, i cannot beat it"

Things like that, where SPECIFICALLY do you think that EC is overtuned? In any way, HP, damage, damage taken, AOEs or whatever.

[DaddyAlduin]

16 hours ago, ZUHFB said:

Example: "I think Doom Droid is too strong because its basic attacks kill me", or "The burn phase at 4th(?) boss is too tight, i cannot beat it"

Things like that, where SPECIFICALLY do you think that EC is overtuned? In any way, HP, damage, damage taken, AOEs or whatever.

I've gone over multiple reasons I believe it's unbalanced multiple times

[Luciferior]

On 3/29/2024 at 3:19 AM, ZUHFB said:

Look, I know I'm never going to convince anybody. Just think about why nobody that is really good is clicking.

I'll stop about it now.

Hey now Ill have you know I click like a pro! ...

Especially when im dying and I have no dcds left because I fat fingered them in a previous rotation and didnt recover..

The only button I press is home key! to initiate my run to walk toggle while im roleplaying on Tython! 

Gota look cool when you zip by those new players.... 

After all how is the cartel market gona make money If I dont show off the vanity items....

[ZUHFB]

5 hours ago, DaddyAlduin said:

I've gone over multiple reasons I believe it's unbalanced multiple times

I've gone back and read the first pages again and you didn't. You had some posts about bosses being stronger, players being weaker, companions getting nerfed and gear mattering a lot. At leasts thats the short version.

Bosses being stronger than they used to: Which brings me back to the question, which one? You did state that some boss is 75% harder than it used to be, but adding HP isn't difficulty. There wasn't any evidence given and honestly I wouldn't even know how to do that.

Players being weaker: You were talking about cast time changes, but cast times and GCDs only matter in raid content where fights are long enough giving players more GCDs to use, if we kill a boss in 6 GCDs it don't matter how long they are. And as shoony rightfully pointed out you could go make that gear since its not a raid and we only need 105 accuracy. Neither accuracy nor alacrity get scaled down. Ability pruning is another thing I've read but please, give me a boss where for whatever class you're playing pruning made you pick between two good choices? Because I can't think of any, I can barely think of raid fights that do this!

Companion nerf: In my opinion giving power to companions is bad. It doesn't feel good. As for them not walking out of AOEs, as stated we as the player have control about most AOEs. Even about the suicide droids, just aggro them, no class should struggle doing so. I honestly don't know much about companions, I do not like them and thus I rarely use them.

Gear mattering: Gear doesn't matter, as I've proofed with the video. Nevermind that though, this game isn't WoW we don't have mainstat as powerful as agi or strength. Teritary stats are the key to gear in this game and they are MASSIVELY overrated, theorycrafters are baiting people into learning rotations and getting a stat distribution. The people then still don't do good dps, but they've also now put the reason for that on unoptimized gear - they play the best rotation afterall. Its literally a mental block to not realize the own mistakes. Most of the time, especially in free play like eternal championship rotations are just bad.

Conclusion: we still don't know what bosses are overtuned or why they are, as I've said they probably feel overtuned because mechanics are unknown. We still don't know what classes would struggle beating any of the bosses. Saying "they got 75% stronger" isn't a reason, give the wookie in ravagers 75% more HP and damage and he still does nothing, just one of countless examples.

 

[Strathkin]

On 3/28/2024 at 10:52 AM, AmorphLex said:

By the way I wonder they finally fixed solo+? I mean bug with unusable terminal if you in party

Yes I believe it's a lot better now, though that bug had remained for some time, and can't be sure when they ever fixed it.  Yet apparently they had... 

[DaddyAlduin]

14 hours ago, ZUHFB said:

I've gone back and read the first pages again and you didn't. You had some posts about bosses being stronger, players being weaker, companions getting nerfed and gear mattering a lot. At leasts thats the short version.

To greatly oversimplify my points, yes, that is what I said. Yet... you're claiming I didn't give any reasoning within the same paragraph that you listed an overview of my points?

14 hours ago, ZUHFB said:

Bosses being stronger than they used to: Which brings me back to the question, which one? You did state that some boss is 75% harder than it used to be, but adding HP isn't difficulty. There wasn't any evidence given and honestly I wouldn't even know how to do that.

I never stated any boss was 75% harder?

I stated that they, on average, objectively received a 20% health boost, and knowing what we know about how scaling works compared to contents initial balancing its relatively safe to assume that their damage has been scaled in much the same way.

Adding HP, if that was to be my only concern, would still be an increase in difficulty; HP has a direct effect on balancing my boi!

14 hours ago, ZUHFB said:

Players being weaker: You were talking about cast time changes, but cast times and GCDs only matter in raid content where fights are long enough giving players more GCDs to use, if we kill a boss in 6 GCDs it don't matter how long they are. And as shoony rightfully pointed out you could go make that gear since its not a raid and we only need 105 accuracy. Neither accuracy nor alacrity get scaled down. Ability pruning is another thing I've read but please, give me a boss where for whatever class you're playing pruning made you pick between two good choices? Because I can't think of any, I can barely think of raid fights that do this!

Cool; this is just ignoring my point. My point is that fundamental changes have occurred within the design of classes that have resulted in them working differently than they were on the EC's release.

14 hours ago, ZUHFB said:

Companion nerf: In my opinion giving power to companions is bad. It doesn't feel good. As for them not walking out of AOEs, as stated we as the player have control about most AOEs. Even about the suicide droids, just aggro them, no class should struggle doing so. I honestly don't know much about companions, I do not like them and thus I rarely use them.

And you are free to think that they're a lackluster system, and that's something I'd even agree with; but that's irrelevant to my point! My point is their power level has fundamentally changed compared to the power level that the EC was designed around.p

14 hours ago, ZUHFB said:

Gear mattering: Gear doesn't matter, as I've proofed with the video. Nevermind that though, this game isn't WoW we don't have mainstat as powerful as agi or strength. Teritary stats are the key to gear in this game and they are MASSIVELY overrated, theorycrafters are baiting people into learning rotations and getting a stat distribution. The people then still don't do good dps, but they've also now put the reason for that on unoptimized gear - they play the best rotation afterall. Its literally a mental block to not realize the own mistakes. Most of the time, especially in free play like eternal championship rotations are just bad.

Gear does indeed matter; just because you personally are able to circumvent something, does not mean it does not matter. Gear and stats matter to fights; that's simply how balancing of literally any game works!

14 hours ago, ZUHFB said:

Conclusion: we still don't know what bosses are overtuned or why they are, as I've said they probably feel overtuned because mechanics are unknown. We still don't know what classes would struggle beating any of the bosses. Saying "they got 75% stronger" isn't a reason, give the wookie in ravagers 75% more HP and damage and he still does nothing, just one of countless examples.

Again, I never said any boss was "75%" stronger, and the rest of this is just assumptions.

 

Edited March 31 by DaddyAlduin

[ZUHFB]

On 3/26/2024 at 6:26 PM, DaddyAlduin said:

with the bosses ranging anywhere from ~20% all the way to ~75% stronger.

3 hours ago, DaddyAlduin said:

I never stated any boss was 75% harder?

?

3 hours ago, DaddyAlduin said:

I stated that they, on average, objectively received a 20% health boost, and knowing what we know about how scaling works compared to contents initial balancing its relatively safe to assume that their damage has been scaled in much the same way.

Yeah, and players have more HP now, more damage and more DR. This more or less equals out. At the very least its not anything that could make or break a fight. And we have tacticals now.

They just don't have a reason to risk overbuffing old content. Thus they pretty much guarentee it can't happen.

3 hours ago, DaddyAlduin said:

Adding HP, if that was to be my only concern, would still be an increase in difficulty; HP has a direct effect on balancing my boi!

But it don't. If a person has understood the fight they can play it for 3 or 30 minutes, it doesn't matter. This however isn't difficult, its just annoying.

The only reason it feels like HP makes a fight harder is because the bosses defeat the players before they're able to burn him regardless of his mechanics, just play them and win.

3 hours ago, DaddyAlduin said:

My point is that fundamental changes have occurred within the design of classes that have resulted in them working differently than they were on the EC's release.

All the classes still work the same, some prio changes maybe at most. Which class do you have in mind, which class fundamentally changed since EC release? Hatred? Concealment? Those classes come to my mind, but even there only filler prio has changed. Or maybe you're talking about ability pruning, then name one boss where pruning puts any class at a unfair disadvantage because all the choices could fundamentally change the fight?

3 hours ago, DaddyAlduin said:

My point is their power level has fundamentally changed compared to the power level that the EC was designed around.

Honestly I'll not even argue this point. I'd prefer to play without a companion. But I'll also take every advantage I can, so I kinda have to use them. I've not noticed a powerlevel change, but I do not have evidence - its just how I feel. So sure, I admit that its nothing we as the players can do, the companions are simply to bad to carry us.

3 hours ago, DaddyAlduin said:

Gear does indeed matter; just because you personally are able to circumvent something, does not mean it does not matter. Gear and stats matter to fights; that's simply how balancing of literally any game works!

Okay, the gear difference between 320 of 344 doesn't matter. Yes gear matters to a degree, but this 22 ilevels won't make a fight impossible or even significantly harder. The reason it feels like it is because people who get to 344 are usually kinda good anyways and people who play in 320 or 327 or whatever are typically not. Yes, gear does matter if someone has 200 gearscore, but the difference between 320 or 344 in this type of content is so insignificant its almost no difference.

3 hours ago, DaddyAlduin said:

and the rest of this is just assumptions.

its not assumptions, its questions you chooose to ignore. I'm not even sure why, just answer them. They aren't rethorical.

[DaddyAlduin]

3 hours ago, ZUHFB said:

?

Whattaya know, I did. I will take full responsibility; I either messed up my math real bad or mistyped; either way, it's irrelevant, I made an objectively false claim, and I will take full responsibility for it.

3 hours ago, ZUHFB said:

Yeah, a1nd players have more HP now, more damage and more DR. This more or less equals out. At the very least its not anything that could make or break a fight. And we have tacticals now.

Ehh, I'd argue against it equalling out. Due to how scaling and stats in SWTOR works, and in general most MMO's, attempting a 1:1 comparison of stat increases and framing it as the "be-all end-all" of balancing. Not saying that's what you're doing, more of a generalized statement.

3 hours ago, ZUHFB said:

They just don't have a reason to risk overbuffing old content. Thus they pretty much guarentee it can't happen.

I mean in this thread alone we've had multiple people critiquing old content for being unbalanced (Ex. Story mode uprisings and KOTxx vet mode, as an example) so I really don't think, even if I didn't believe the ET was unbalanced, that saying "they pretty much guarantee (overbuffing of old content) can't happen" would be accurate.

3 hours ago, ZUHFB said:

But it don't. If a person has understood the fight they can play it for 3 or 30 minutes, it doesn't matter. This however isn't difficult, its just annoying.

Thats... an example of difficulty? Extending the length of a fight by a significant amount of time is a difficulty increase! It may not be your standard harder mechanics, higher damage, w/e, but that is still very much an increase in difficulty!

3 hours ago, ZUHFB said:

The only reason it feels like HP makes a fight harder is because the bosses defeat the players before they're able to burn him regardless of his mechanics, just play them and win.

I mean that's still an increase in difficulty, and often times direct health increases can have a direct effect on the difficulty of mechanics!

To use an example I brought up earlier, DPS checks are a mechanic based solely on "Do the players output enough damage to burn down this boss in a specific amount of time" and any increase to health would have a massive effect on that!

Hell, to use an example from the EC specifically; if the adds you need to burn down to prevent the DoomDroid's pulse suddenly got 200k extra health, would you say that would have no effect on the difficulty?

3 hours ago, ZUHFB said:

All the classes still work the same, some prio changes maybe at most. Which class do you have in mind, which class fundamentally changed since EC release? Hatred? Concealment? Those classes come to my mind, but even there only filler prio has changed. Or maybe you're talking about ability pruning, then name one boss where pruning puts any class at a unfair disadvantage because all the choices could fundamentally change the fight?

My point isn't "this one specific ability is gone thus fight broken," my point is that "the games design and general balancing has changed." 

3 hours ago, ZUHFB said:

Honestly I'll not even argue this point. I'd prefer to play without a companion. But I'll also take every advantage I can, so I kinda have to use them. I've not noticed a powerlevel change, but I do not have evidence - its just how I feel. So sure, I admit that its nothing we as the players can do, the companions are simply to bad to carry us.

And don't get me wrong, I wish companions didn't play such a vital role in SWTOR! But Alas it (was) a Bioware game, and as such 99% of solo content has been designed with the premise of the player having a comp.

3 hours ago, ZUHFB said:

Okay, the gear difference between 320 of 344 doesn't matter. Yes gear matters to a degree, but this 22 ilevels won't make a fight impossible or even significantly harder. The reason it feels like it is because people who get to 344 are usually kinda good anyways and people who play in 320 or 327 or whatever are typically not. Yes, gear does matter if someone has 200 gearscore, but the difference between 320 or 344 in this type of content is so insignificant its almost no difference.

I'll get hard numbers for the difference between 324-336-344 gear tomorrow, so that way we can discuss whether it matters with numbers to back us up.

3 hours ago, ZUHFB said:

its not assumptions, its questions you chooose to ignore. I'm not even sure why, just answer them. They aren't rethorical.

"Conclusion: we still don't know what bosses are overtuned or why they are" -Statement

"as I've said they probably feel overtuned because mechanics are unknown."-Assumption

"We still don't know what classes would struggle beating any of the bosses."-Statement

"Saying "they got 75% stronger" isn't a reason, give the wookie in ravagers 75% more HP and damage and he still does nothing, just one of countless examples."-Statement and assumption

Ain't saying anything you're saying in this particular bit is wrong or cringe or anything, just that it's not something I can particularly reply to!

 

 

Also I do apologize for my slow replies compared to previously, I have not had as much free time lately as before.