Reevaluate the difficulty of the Eternal Championship

[DaddyAlduin]

9 hours ago, Toraak said:

If you read my earlier post I said I did it last week for Galactic Season's. So yes I did it in 7.0. It's not out of whack for balance. Learn the mechanics.

My bad, I missed that! 

 

And it is out of whack for balance; compare pre-7.0 player stats and boss stats to post-7.0 player stats and boss stats, and keep in mind that companions are generally weaker, GCD and cast times have been changed, and the ability pruning that occurred!

Edited March 27 by DaddyAlduin

[DaddyAlduin]

9 hours ago, Luciferior said:

@Toraak The insta kill mechanic I want to say is at the final fight with the walker? I forget where specifically

But I recall a bunch of droids being summoned and they were using a beam channel I *believe* If they get that channel off you take a bunch of damage from something not sure if its them or the boss but the general idea is you have to kill the droids before they do that or its a gona hurt 

If hes encountering a different mechanic that does alot of damage the only one I can think of is with the 2 big creature adds that you gota fight near each other 

As far as Daddy not being able to complete this content on lightning sorc I honestly dont know what to tell em I want to say the droid part at the end is a dps check he seems to think this is me trying to tell him hes bad which it isnt what im trying to say...

There is a vast difference from saying someone is outright bad vs they just arent as good as they believe they are...

The fact he took the time to cite all the other content in other games hes played as if that was proof hes good at something in this game seemed kind of outa place....

I could be a legend at checkers dont mean that I would be a legend at chess too lol

Maybe hes better at WoW then he is at Lightning Sorc Idk...

I do know if I do this on arsenal merc with gyroscopic stabilizers tactical I null any arguments in this thread about the content needing a nerf 

As im sure you can agree with me Toraak that arsenal merc/gunnery is the worst dps in the game if not tieing with marksman/sharp shooter...

Again, you're completely missing the point of what I'm saying, and if you aren't here to have a meaningful discussion I'm going to simply ignore any future posts from you. Like my guy, read what I'm saying, read my explanations for why I'm saying it.

[DaddyAlduin]

2 hours ago, Toraak said:

Clearly this is not a this needs to be nerfed issue, it's understanding of what the mechanics are of the fights issue. While BW made all of the early game so easy you can sleep walk through it, the eternal championship they claimed was put in to get people ready to do group content (or so they said at the time). Meaning mechanics mattered. If you don't follow the mechanics you will die. It's not meant to be derp

I understood the mechanics of the fight perfectly fine! You can't play any hard content in an MMO and not be willing to learn mechanics lel.

It's not a mechanics issue, it's not a "reeee difficulty bad" issue, it's a "the balancing has been thrown out of whack" issue.

[DaddyAlduin]

1 hour ago, Toraak said:

If your capable of clearing Explosive Conflict on Vet mode, your skilled enough to do Eternal Championship solo without a doubt. The problem is that the leveling Story is now so easy, that new players are not properly prepared for content that requires the understanding of doing mechanics. It's why they aren't prepared for MM FP's, or HM/NiM Ops. They can just let the companions kill everything in the story part of the game and fall asleep. 

 

Personally I have not improved my skills since 4.0. I used to do some NiM back in 2.x, but in truth I was the weakest of that group, and barely ready for that content (if I was ever ready). I've just started over the last year or so getting back into harder Ops, but definitely haven't really improved much. I've spent most of those years doing conquest or GSF. 

 

The question I have to ask, is it time to return some mechanics to older content so people will be prepared for it when they get to content like this? 

 

As long as the base game continues to be as easy as it is now, I can't see how threads like this won't keep popping up, when players are simply not prepared for this content.

Whether you think so or not, your skills will have improved within the many years since 4.0 lel.

 

And I agree, I wish that story content was more difficult! But that has nothing to do with my issue here, and I don't agree with the premise of "story content being easy has led to people complaining whenever they encounter challenges." Every new raider started with story content, every person that does MM Flashpoints started with story content, every person that's run MM KOTxx started off running it on story difficulty!

[Toraak]

41 minutes ago, DaddyAlduin said:

Whether you think so or not, your skills will have improved within the many years since 4.0 lel.

 

And I agree, I wish that story content was more difficult! But that has nothing to do with my issue here, and I don't agree with the premise of "story content being easy has led to people complaining whenever they encounter challenges." Every new raider started with story content, every person that does MM Flashpoints started with story content, every person that's run MM KOTxx started off running it on story difficulty!

Except the class I did it on is not my main, it is not one I play at all for any kind of content that requires a rotation. The hardest thing I've done on that Deception sin since 4.0 is DK heroic. The stuff in there does not require you to do anything but sleep, while spamming abilities. DPS check is non existent. You went on the assumption I took a class through EC on one I actually played. I didn't. 

 

If I intend to do MM FP's, or HM/NiM Ops it would be on a healer, Sniper, or Madness sorc, so the fact I actually did EC on a Sin shows you I was not going to have improved my DPS, or class knowledge much in all that time.

[DaddyAlduin]

16 minutes ago, Toraak said:

Except the class I did it on is not my main, it is not one I play at all for any kind of content that requires a rotation. The hardest thing I've done on that Deception sin since 4.0 is DK heroic. The stuff in there does not require you to do anything but sleep, while spamming abilities. DPS check is non existent. You went on the assumption I took a class through EC on one I actually played. I didn't. 

 

If I intend to do MM FP's, or HM/NiM Ops it would be on a healer, Sniper, or Madness sorc, so the fact I actually did EC on a Sin shows you I was not going to have improved my DPS, or class knowledge much in all that time.

I didn't make any assumption; skill does not just include your intimate knowledge with a specific class! I can promise you, your knowledge and intimatcy of the games mechanics, knowledge of how to properly form and utilize a rotation, knowledge and experience with the way BW and now BS design and implement content, and knowledge and experience with how the game "feels" have all been bolstered within the years since release! 

 

Of course this is all irrelevant to the thread, but give yourself some credit; you may not think you have improved, but I promise you your skill will have increased compared to 7+ years ago!

[Luciferior]

Some of the companions folks are using in this thread are comps like Lana and unless someone has some data to say otherwise ...

Personal experience has taught me Lana sucks ass even as rank 50 when it comes to healing 

When I try it this week ill probably be using Hexid at rank 50 granted I dont think hexid is that much better than lana for healing but she looks better so ill go with that

Worst case Ill swap to Vett her at rank 50 she can damn near keep me alive lv 80 rakghoul blights solo so im expecting shel be ok

3 hours ago, Toraak said:

I believe your thinking of boss #6 You have the 2 monsters starting Left, and right, with boss in the middle (all 3 have circles under them). You need to stand in the circles or they'll reflect. While this mechanic has been ignored for years, you want to in reality spread out the 2 monsters (I grab boss, + 1 monster, and have comp grab the other). You want to separate the 2 monsters enough so they do not glow red, but not to far so that the farthest one jumps to you. If they're to close they enrage, and do more damage. 

 

Obviously try staying in circle, while kiting to take less damage from boss, monster,+ reflect kill one monster, then the other, then boss. This and Fight 7 (Nocturno) are probably the 2 fights that take me the longest, and cause me to not get sprint champion, but they aren't difficult if your following the mechanics and don't need to be nerfed. I just need to get better.

 

Many ignore this mechanic because they use reflects (as merc can probably do here) or other things that may be far better for them to be stacked instead, but for many classes keeping them apart is a better option.

Yeah I recall the big double monster fight that one of the harder fights for sure...

That might of been the most annoying fight on me for gunslinger they dont give a damn about cover lol and If I rolled away from them just a tad too far they started leaping 

[ivicapesun]

It's too hard for me to play it alone even with the highes settings, i always need help i still don't know if they fixed the bug with 2 players playing the same championship I mean solo 2+ it's called I think, just too hard, as well as star forge as well as the main bosses of macrobinocular and seeker missions, as well, why can't you do it alone, sure have options to play with others, but first you need to be able to do them alone with your healer companion.

Please....

Edited March 27 by ivicapesun

[Toraak]

For those doing the Eternal championship 1 bit of huge advice any of us can give. Don't use a melee companion as a healer. Use rdps/heal companions Shae is the best DPS, and a solid healer companion. Zo-om is decent at dps (below shae), but is best healer.

 

If you don't have either of those companions use a ranged companion double blasters usually have higher dps, and decent healing.

[Toraak]

19 minutes ago, ivicapesun said:

It's too hard for me to play it alone even with the highes settings, i always need help i still don't know if they fixed the bug with 2 players playing the same championship I mean solo 2+ it's called I think, just too hard, as well as star forge as well as the main bosses of macrobinocular and seeker missions, as well, why can't you do it alone, sure have options to play with others, but first you need to be able to do them alone with your healer companion.

Please....

As you've seen people post. You can do it alone, it just does take understanding of your class (Rotation, and DCD's), a ranked up companion (ranged companion is a better option), and understanding of the mechanics of each fight. There are guides to help with the boss mechanics out there, or used to be anyway.

 

It is not something you can just walk into and have your companion give you a free pass at for you to solo it. knowledge of the fights is the most important part of it, then rotation, and knowledge of DCD's so you know when to use what.

[JakRoanin]

No matter what there will always be people who will never accept any other reason for people not being able to do anything other than they're idiots who can't play. Have a time constraint? No you just can't play. Have a disability? No, you're just not capable of understanding your class. Have bad internet? No, you're just lazy. It's exhausting. 

[Toraak]

2 minutes ago, JakRoanin said:

No matter what there will always be people who will never accept any other reason for people not being able to do anything other than they're idiots who can't play. Have a time constraint? No you just can't play. Have a disability? No, you're just not capable of understanding your class. Have bad internet? No, you're just lazy. It's exhausting. 

There are many things in this game I'll never be able to do for whatever reason. I understand my limitations. That doesn't mean what I can't do needs to be nerfed.

 

If people are telling you the balance is fine, with some practice and work you can do it, that means it is possible (not counting specific disabilities). Content is not balanced around someone's disability, but on the average player. The average player that can do Vet Mode Operations or Master Mode Flashpoints (or a player looking to do either) can complete eternal championship.

[JakRoanin]

I'm not the OP. I have no clue about the "balance issues" but I AM a PAYING player, which means I am just as valuable as the so-called "average player" and no my disabilities are not the only reason people cannot complete SOLO content. BTW, VET and MM are not SOLO! I'm only interested in what is supposed to be done ALONE! And yes, my needs should be met. They should have options for difficulty! And they should fix the bloody companions!

[VegaMist]

Regarding Git Gud which people tend to take personally…

I’m currently re-playing FFVII Remake (before jumping into Rebirth – have couple of things left to get that Platinum), and I got to THREE-PERSON TEAM VS TOP SECRETS fight which is supposed to be the hardest fight sequence in the game (only available on Hard Mode). In the past, I cleared it with a slow-and-steady approach, meaning ton of defense, ton of healing, etc. This time though, I was fascinated by all of these “EASY WAY to defeat THREE-PERSON TEAM VS TOP SECRETS” guides. There are quite a few, but the mechanics are always similar. It is essentially a Glass Cannon build which requires one to be very quick with issuing commands and leaves a very little room for errors – every single boss in the sequence has an ability to wipe out your entire team in a couple of or even a single strike.

Well, practicing it was anything BUT easy. Took me more than a week and a half (not every day, but most days) to finally get it right. At first, I was like – I can’t do it, it's just too fast for me. I kept messing up the commands, couldn’t build pressure quickly enough, and would wipe again and again. I think my stubbornness was the only thing that kept me going at that point.

But then it started to sync in, and the fights started to get progressively easier. The fights, of course, didn’t change – my skills did. The first two fights became a walk in a park (unless they would occasionally get lucky), the third and then the fourth went from impossible to challenging but doable, and then the fifth was completed on the second attempt of me finally getting to the said fight (not a surprise, since it’s about as tough as the second one in the sequence and less difficult than the third and especially the fourth).

After that, I proceeded with the game’s story to the final battle sequence and expected it to be as challenging as I remembered it, and was surprised at how easy it was (we’re still talking Hard Mode). Again, the game didn’t change. But me training against TOP SECRETS changed how I played the game, and, as a result, made the rest of it much easier.

I know it’s not the same game, but somehow it felt relevant.

Edited March 27 by VegaMist

[Leoperaghost]

Adding two more things to this as well: 

1. as far as companions go, Altuur is by far the best companion to have for his ability to slow targets down and boost their damage taken

he’s been indispensable for me when I run this and his heals are decent enough for me to just swap him from dps to heals for this. 
 

2. I looked at a video completing the championship from seven years ago. The person used a heroic moment and it melted the adds and the first boss with just two heroic moment attacks, AND the boss had less health than they do now. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCXC7gWnfE8&t=114s&pp=2AFykAIB

I want to just reiterate I run this often for fun and I’m not asking that anything get nerfed! I’m not saying “wehhh too hard wehh” bc it’s not, at least for me anyways! But still it’s falling on deaf ears that something with the balance is out of wack and I can also point to uprisings as another victim of this. Just like how the Championship bumps you down to lvl 65, Story mode uprisings make you lvl 75 and stuff hits you way harder than it should. It’s a joke among me and other uprising runners that you don’t run SM unless you have a group. And if you wanna good time solo-ing them, you run vet mode for a better chance at beating it bc it leaves you at lvl 80. 

it’s not a bad thing to admit the game has a problem with balance and level sync to this degree… some people can work around it and that’s great for them but it’s a sign of a bad product when a company (BioSword) just relies on that and doesn’t take the time to fix their old content to better suit the new gear/meta/etc. It’s not simply a “skill issue”.

 

TL;DR I am NOT saying it’s too hard, but that something does feel off like here parts of the game. 

Edited March 27 by Leoperaghost
Grammar

[xxSHOONYxx]

Unlike fps in 4.0 solo content was supposed to be the "hard" difficulty. Like a vet- mm fp but doing it alone instead of grouping. That is what the difficulty was set for.  
In 4.0 solo is not the same as "solo fps to see the story". So no, not everyone should be able to do it. The easy option to do it is with a group.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXTmpFqxLFU
Here there is a guy still doing mistakes, with 330 gear and purple augments and still getting it. It's far from unbalanced or hard.

[GunqqerFriithian]

I like how half the people here are entirely missing the point on how a lot of old content needs to be updated for the modern swtor

[Luciferior]

Here it is read it and weep did I die during it? sure a few times at king crush and ripper and vs noc/drake

I ended up having to kill drake first on that fight because he has almost double the HP pool of the other one

Doomdroid was fine

Exarch at the end with the walker was probably one of the easier ones I brought vett for that fight and she stood in half the aoes I actually ended up killing exarch while vett was dead

I saved 1 of the koltos for the absolute end

And for those who are curious about my gear that red implant is a Berserker implant I take 6% more damage with that and I had hunter kill droid so I didnt perk damage reduction if I spam tracer missile 

The beginning fights were still easy the fights towards the end are exactly as its claim to be you have to pay attention

Of the hardest fight Id have to say it was noc/drake but it is not undoable

And before anyone says something Arsenal merc is regarded as one if not the WORST DPS in the game and some of those spots during the noc/drake fights felt like they could have been potential DPS Checks

Is everyone going to clear this content? No doesnt mean it should be changed though

Iv done it on a gunslinger in the past year *before they got their self heal in cover back* so thats as bout as glassy as it gets

Now Iv done it on arsenal merc the worst DPS with a meme tactical I dont want to hear complaints or see rivers of tears

This is a you issue if you cannot complete this content *PERIOD*

It was actually refreshing to do this event again because it was just challenge enough to be fun and I didnt breeze thru it in my sleep

The achievement is time stamped for today on my merc trooper for anyone who wishes to verify that I did in fact do it

Edited March 27 by Luciferior

[VegaMist]

23 minutes ago, Leoperaghost said:

I can also point to uprisings as another victim of this. ... Story mode uprisings make you lvl 75 and stuff hits you way harder than it should. It’s a joke among me and other uprising runners that you don’t run SM unless you have a group. And if you wanna good time solo-ing them, you run vet mode for a better chance at beating it bc it leaves you at lvl 80. 

I do agree with you on Uprisings - having Story mode being harder than Vet mode is an actual "out-of-balance" example.

I would also add Vet mode KOTFE/KOTET to the Unbalanced pile because all that content is solo-targeted, and, as such, it should not exceed a difficulty of Vet flashpoints.

Eternal Championship though - not so much.

[VegaMist]

3 hours ago, Luciferior said:

Personal experience has taught me Lana sucks ass even as rank 50 when it comes to healing 

Literally just realized that yesterday when I used her as a companion in a Story mode in Blood Hunt flashpoint. Was so used to ranged companions as healers that didn't even pay attention to her health until I heard "I wouldn't last long" and saw she was at less than 10% - had to monitor her health from that point on.

[Luciferior]

@VegaMist Sadly Lana is not a good healer comp I had to google it earlier just to confirm Lana is apparently a good DPS ...healing Not so much

 

I used Darth Hexid for alot of those fights today it wasnt till towards the noc/drake fight I swapped to Vett and she did ok there and then the final fight with exarch

But Vett sucked at exarch she stood in alot of those bomber droid aoes she ate quite a few aoes from the walker

And then at the end she died shes actually still dead in my screen shot that I posted I hadnt revived her till after I screen for proof of completing it

[DaddyAlduin]

1 hour ago, Toraak said:

There are many things in this game I'll never be able to do for whatever reason. I understand my limitations. That doesn't mean what I can't do needs to be nerfed.

 

If people are telling you the balance is fine, with some practice and work you can do it, that means it is possible (not counting specific disabilities). Content is not balanced around someone's disability, but on the average player. The average player that can do Vet Mode Operations or Master Mode Flashpoints (or a player looking to do either) can complete eternal championship.

And if people are telling you the balance isn't fine, does that automatically mean the balance isn't fine? 

Again, the issue isn't the difficulty or that it's not designed to be able to be beatable by everyone; the issue is the balance is screwed up, as it is for almost anything utilizing level scaling.

Edited March 27 by DaddyAlduin

[DaddyAlduin]

1 hour ago, VegaMist said:

Regarding Git Gud which people tend to take personally…

I’m currently re-playing FFVII Remake (before jumping into Rebirth – have couple of things left to get that Platinum), and I got to THREE-PERSON TEAM VS TOP SECRETS fight which is supposed to be the hardest fight sequence in the game (only available on Hard Mode). In the past, I cleared it with a slow-and-steady approach, meaning ton of defense, ton of healing, etc. This time though, I was fascinated by all of these “EASY WAY to defeat THREE-PERSON TEAM VS TOP SECRETS” guides. There are quite a few, but the mechanics are always similar. It is essentially a Glass Cannon build which requires one to be very quick with issuing commands and leaves a very little room for errors – every single boss in the sequence has an ability to wipe out your entire team in a couple of or even a single strike.

Well, practicing it was anything BUT easy. Took me more than a week and a half (not every day, but most days) to finally get it right. At first, I was like – I can’t do it, it's just too fast for me. I kept messing up the commands, couldn’t build pressure quickly enough, and would wipe again and again. I think my stubbornness was the only thing that kept me going at that point.

But then it started to sync in, and the fights started to get progressively easier. The fights, of course, didn’t change – my skills did. The first two fights became a walk in a park (unless they would occasionally get lucky), the third and then the fourth went from impossible to challenging but doable, and then the fifth was completed on the second attempt of me finally getting to the said fight (not a surprise, since it’s about as tough as the second one in the sequence and less difficult than the third and especially the fourth).

After that, I proceeded with the game’s story to the final battle sequence and expected it to be as challenging as I remembered it, and was surprised at how easy it was (we’re still talking Hard Mode). Again, the game didn’t change. But me training against TOP SECRETS changed how I played the game, and, as a result, made the rest of it much easier.

I know it’s not the same game, but somehow it felt relevant.

And this is a good example of gitting gud! You put in time and effort to refine your skills, overcome adversity, and better yourself. 

 

Git gud, however, does NOT apply when the thing in question has had its balance broken, resulting in the fights going outside of what they were designed for.

[DaddyAlduin]

49 minutes ago, Leoperaghost said:

Adding two more things to this as well: 

1. as far as companions go, Altuur is by far the best companion to have for his ability to slow targets down and boost their damage taken

he’s been indispensable for me when I run this and his heals are decent enough for me to just swap him from dps to heals for this. 
 

2. I looked at a video completing the championship from seven years ago. The person used a heroic moment and it melted the adds and the first boss with just two heroic moment attacks, AND the boss had less health than they do now. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCXC7gWnfE8&t=114s&pp=2AFykAIB

I want to just reiterate I run this often for fun and I’m not asking that anything get nerfed! I’m not saying “wehhh too hard wehh” bc it’s not, at least for me anyways! But still it’s falling on deaf ears that something with the balance is out of wack and I can also point to uprisings as another victim of this. Just like how the Championship bumps you down to lvl 65, Story mode uprisings make you lvl 75 and stuff hits you way harder than it should. It’s a joke among me and other uprising runners that you don’t run SM unless you have a group. And if you wanna good time solo-ing them, you run vet mode for a better chance at beating it bc it leaves you at lvl 80. 

it’s not a bad thing to admit the game has a problem with balance and level sync to this degree… some people can work around it and that’s great for them but it’s a sign of a bad product when a company (BioSword) just relies on that and doesn’t take the time to fix their old content to better suit the new gear/meta/etc. It’s not simply a “skill issue”.

 

TL;DR I am NOT saying it’s too hard, but that something does feel off like here parts of the game. 

Thank you! This is exactly my point. The issue isn't that it's difficult. It's that the balance has been broken by level scaling!

[DaddyAlduin]

35 minutes ago, Luciferior said:

Here it is read it and weep did I die during it? sure a few times at king crush and ripper and vs noc/drake

I ended up having to kill drake first on that fight because he has almost double the HP pool of the other one

Doomdroid was fine

Exarch at the end with the walker was probably one of the easier ones I brought vett for that fight and she stood in half the aoes I actually ended up killing exarch while vett was dead

I saved 1 of the koltos for the absolute end

And for those who are curious about my gear that red implant is a Berserker implant I take 6% more damage with that and I had hunter kill droid so I didnt perk damage reduction if I spam tracer missile 

The beginning fights were still easy the fights towards the end are exactly as its claim to be you have to pay attention

Of the hardest fight Id have to say it was noc/drake but it is not undoable

And before anyone says something Arsenal merc is regarded as one if not the WORST DPS in the game and some of those spots during the noc/drake fights felt like they could have been potential DPS Checks

Is everyone going to clear this content? No doesnt mean it should be changed though

Iv done it on a gunslinger in the past year *before they got their self heal in cover back* so thats as bout as glassy as it gets

Now Iv done it on arsenal merc the worst DPS with a meme tactical I dont want to hear complaints or see rivers of tears

This is a you issue if you cannot complete this content *PERIOD*

It was actually refreshing to do this event again because it was just challenge enough to be fun and I didnt breeze thru it in my sleep

The achievement is time stamped for today on my merc trooper for anyone who wishes to verify that I did in fact do it

I hope you realize all this means nothing as it all has absolutely nothing to do with the point of this discussion.