Reevaluate the difficulty of the Eternal Championship

[ivicapesun]

9 hours ago, DaddyAlduin said:

If you're getting stressed out, realize that challenging content isn't meant to be done by everyone, and don't feel bad or, idk, "like you aren't good enough!" There's nothing wrong with not having the time to invest into a game to hit the point where you are capable of doing the top-end content!

OK, than, I will probably ask other players if I get into any eternal championship, also if I get to the guild so they can warn me about instructions to take before I get it, but for me the toughest classes to play are for some reason sage/sorcerer and assassins/shadows there is also mercenary/commando and powertech/vanguard the thing is I really love these classes, but getting them into eternal championships if I get other players to join me (or just ask guild mates when and if I get to the guild) to help me out.

Although it seems there is some bug the lčast time we tried when we tried to both to enter the eternal championship, although I do not know if this has changed since than.

But yes you are right about this.

[Luciferior]

@ivicapesun I did EC yesterday on arsenal merc was it semi challenging yes the hard spots for me were King rush/ ripper

Noc/Drake

I tried killing Noc first drake had 400k HP compared to Nocs 200 something they both seem to enrage when their ally dies

Noc has some decent melee spam damage yet was kiteable but drake has a literal spread fire aoe that follows you no matter where you go Id recommend taking out drake first and kitting Noc

If you leave drake up with his HP pool the fight is that much longer and you will encounter multiple moments where companion is kidnapped then you gota run over and fight in their reflect 

If drake decides to drop that spread fire aoe on you when your stuck fighting in those aoes to get your comp back your done lol 

It is just easier to drop drake and weather the melee dps from noc

Depending on your class options for companions Dont use Lana for a healing comp If you can get a rank 50 vett in there shel help for alot of the fights 

Be wary if you bring vett to the exarch fight as she will not move out of the aoes in time

[ZUHFB]

55 minutes ago, Luciferior said:

It is just easier to drop drake and weather the melee dps from noc

Or we play the mechanic which is to kill drake, then noc will enrage and give you like 15s to pick up drakes tool belt. You can throw the stun granedes at noc yourself from that point. The rocket launch can be used to get away in emergencies and should noc not be stunned use any defensive, pretty much anything but shroud and warrior reflect should work.

I can see how people can't kill this fight if they facetank noc while drake is up or after drake is dead. But understand that this needs to happen for the mechanic to stay relevant (which it already isn't). 

[AmorphLex]

As solo lazy casual I hate dark souls and wish nerf of championship so I can shoot nocturno standing one place and ignoring mechanic with dps comp

Still TS noob and two faced liar because only thing broken there its timer counts even between rounds or with announcements so in fact you have only 10 minutes for sprint champion means only 2 heroic moments 3 save cds  and no healing frop comp so I teared apart my ass to do it with my snadow dd without ops gear on 20-30 try literally in last second judging by phone timer

So only way he can be mythic raider is he paying for carry

By the way I wonder they finally fixed solo+? I mean bug with unusable terminal if you in party

[Luciferior]

@ZUHFB Tbh I didnt even know you can pick up his belt I just killed noc afterwards normal kiting I saved my reactive shield and reflect for the enrage and was fine

I always ran Noc thru the grenade aoes during the main part of the fight though for entertainment value

[DaddyAlduin]

4 hours ago, Crystal_Mind said:

Wow, this thread is actually still going. Alright then. Let me see if I understand where we're at after 8 pages.

You say that like discussion is a bad thing! You can disagree with someone, that's perfectly fine, but engaging with and attempting to understand them and why they hold their belief is nothing but a good thing!

4 hours ago, Crystal_Mind said:

OP Claim: The Eternal Championship is unbalanced/overtuned compared to original design
Specific Argument #1: The level scaling is off
Supporting Evidence #1: Comparative Player v. Boss stats from a thread posted in March of 2022 (patch 7.0)
Counterargument:

  Reveal hidden contents

Shoony's listed stats (spoilered above) align with what I usually see, as well. Player health (even before 343 gear) is on-par with a well-geared player of the era. player damage--actual damage, including the power stat, not just the tooltip on your mainhand--is also higher. Now, I'll grant that players have less power than they did in 6.x because we're no longer subjected to the scale-breaking hilarity that was Veterans Edge stacks, but I don't count that as a loss.

You are right, due to how scaling functions having BIS post 7.0 will result in your stats roughly equalling a BIS pre-7.0 scaled player! However, also due to how scaling works, if you are below BIS by even a miniscule amount, it will result in a disproportionate downgrade compared to what you should actually be receiving!

 

For extra context, you mind sending your scaled stats in here? The more information both sides have access to, the easier it is to have an objective discussion!

4 hours ago, Crystal_Mind said:

With regard to boss health scaling, I went back and checked. For the most part, bosses seem to have the same or slightly higher hp in 7.0 than they did in 6.0 (but not nearly as much as they had in their level 70 iterations in the latter half of the 5.x era). Set against the increase in player power, the marginal increase in boss health compared to 4.x is canceled out (even without VE).

I wouldn't consider an (in general) ~20% increase to boss health as "slightly higher" tbh. 

I did the math, and verified the numbers myself for the first 3;

1st boss; 129k>159k. Their health is at roughly 123% compared to release.

2nd; 210k>259k. Their health is also roughly around 123% compared to release.

3rd:189k>232k. This, once again, comes out to roughly 123%.

I'd say its probably a pretty safe bet to say that this scaling will apply consistently across all the bosses; and this is just the health scaling!

While it'll never be possible for us to have specific numbers, given what we know about how scaling works, it's very likely that their damage will have scaled in much the same manner; but again, it'll never be possible for us have specific numbers, but it's worth mentioning.

 

4 hours ago, Crystal_Mind said:

Specific Argument #2: Companions are weaker
Supporting Evidence: Just anecdotes.
Counter: Lots of folks say that their comps "feel" weaker, and there was a bug at 7.0 launch, but even when it was being reported most frequently I never encountered the frozen comp issue. Regardless, an issue with comps is not an issue with the championship itself. This argument can be discarded.

The argument is not specifically related to the EC, correct; but it is specifically related to the balance the game was designed around at that time, and not accounting for and considering a change such as it does not allow one to have the full picture!

4 hours ago, Crystal_Mind said:

Specific Argument #3: GCDs & Cast times are different
Supporting Evidence: This is just given as its own statement.
Response:  I'm not sure which specific cast times OP is concerned about, nor can I say what standard alacrity gearing was in 4.0. A quick skim of ancient youtube looks like a lot of people were running 9-10%, but idk if that was a function of gearing or what. Without a more concrete argument of what specifically OP thinks has changed so drastically and how this change breaks balance, I can't address this further.

Specific Argument #4: Pruning/Class Changes mean players are weaker and/or missing critical tools
Supporting Evidence: Given as its own statement.
Response: Classes have changed, yes. That's how MMOs work. But it's a tradeoff. We've lost some tools and gained others (60% AoE DR, anyone?). If specific examples had been given, I could address this better, but alas...

As for these two; I am not aware enough of most classes specific pre-7.0 states to really dive deep into this discussion, but the reason I bring it up is the same reason I bring up the companion changes; they help form the big picture of how the game is balanced and designed, both of which are in a significantly different state than what the EC was designed around.

4 hours ago, Crystal_Mind said:

Specific Argument #5: But it's not what the devs intended
Supporting Evidence: Previous arguments
Response: See previous. Without a direct line to the developers' brains, this argument doesn't stand on its own.

I think that's everything.

We can make an educated guess about the design intentions behind pieces of content; also worth mentioning that we do have an official post about the EC and intentions behind it, but I do not have the link on-hand atm but can grab it if you want. Essentially, they just said "meant to be challenging" which could apply to any "challenging" content within the game, and if you wanted to, excuse any and all balancing issues as it fits their goal of "being challenging," which is why we need to be able to use common sense and make an educated guess at the intended design of an encounter.

[DaddyAlduin]

1 hour ago, JakRoanin said:

If that was how my Cerebral Palsy worked I wouldn't have a problem with EC at all. You don't want to understand, you don't want to care.

 

1 hour ago, AmorphLex said:

Now we have word playing because TS calling himself top pro nim ops player not invalid one way or another

What the pathetic two faced try to play on emotions

Can you both try and keep this in good faith? Come on, we are all just here to discuss a game we enjoy, there's no reason to get personally heated. 

[JakRoanin]

What is this good faith you keep saying? You started the thread about re-thinking the difficulty of the SOLO EC. I and many other people have physical, mental, and emotional health issues that make EC much too difficult. Every point I have made is about how the game should have options for difficulty and they should fix the companions. I don't think you're using the phrase good faith in the way you intend it. But please stop telling people they are in bad faith.

[DaddyAlduin]

Just now, JakRoanin said:

What is this good faith you keep saying? You started the thread about re-thinking the difficulty of the SOLO EC. I and many other people have physical, mental, and emotional health issues that make EC much too difficult. Every point I have made is about how the game should have options for difficulty and they should fix the companions. I don't think you're using the phrase good faith in the way you intend it. But please stop telling people they are in bad faith.

Yes, I understand that, and while I don't specifically agree with all of your points, I can understand why you're making them! But personally attacking others, accusing them of things, whatever, is not in good faith, and does nothing but sour the entire discussion.

[JakRoanin]

Telling the truth is not an attack.

[xxSHOONYxx]

12 minutes ago, JakRoanin said:

Every point I have made is about how the game should have options for difficulty

You already have the solo version easier. Is called solo+.
Now if you want the rewards of solo but way easier, what will come next? NiM achievements and rewards but in solo mode and way easier?

[Traceguy]

Can't Broadsword look at statistics in order to make adjustments?

Example: (I'm making these numbers up)

• "Only 7% of the playerbase have actually successfully soloed SOLO mode, maybe we should adjust?"
• "93% of SOLO Championship players have never made it past Zotar. Maybe we should nerf?"

Companions don't move from AOE. It's a flawed design that Bioware never addressed. If Zotar can nuke a companion in 2 seconds from AOE, I don't think it's intentional. It's just an unforeseen side-effect of not having proper companion AI.

 

I don't know if it really means much, but I soloed Uprising Landing Party on my first attempt. I'm pretty sure Uprisings are not designed to be soloed. So something to look at in terms of difficulty tuning.

 

 

[ZUHFB]

1 minute ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

Now if you want the rewards of solo but way easier, what will come next? NiM achievements and rewards but in solo mode and way easier?

Yep, this is the problem and where do we draw the line then? "Please make eternal championship a cutscene, I have no arms and I can't beat it playing with my nose alone".

[VegaMist]

Here are the numbers from my Commando Trooper inside EC (340 modded gear with three 336 pieces - ear and relics, plus Legendaries), though, as many pointed out, it's not numbers but mechanics that really matter during each round:

HP: 88,902
Mastery: 5,215
Endurance: 6,051
Power: 3,260
Presence: 3,700
Damage: 1,882

I picked this toon since that's the first one I beat EC on SOLO and that was before the last level bump.

[ZUHFB]

1 minute ago, Traceguy said:

Can't Broadsword look at statistics in order to make adjustments?

I think they would find out that it does not need adjustments. The numbers aren't the issues, these fights are mechanical. The damage or survivability of classes doesn't matter at all. 

The people who can't beat do not know what the bosses do. Theres nothing more to it

[DaddyAlduin]

1 minute ago, VegaMist said:

Here are the numbers from my Commando Trooper inside EC (340 modded gear with three 336 pieces - ear and relics, plus Legendaries), though, as many pointed out, it's not numbers but mechanics that really matter during each round:

HP: 88,902
Mastery: 5,215
Endurance: 6,051
Power: 3,260
Presence: 3,700
Damage: 1,882

I picked this toon since that's the first one I beat EC on SOLO and that was before the last level bump.

Thank you, this is all I wanted from you before you left!

[VegaMist]

Just now, DaddyAlduin said:

Thank you, this is all I wanted from you before you left!

Well, you have it now.

[DaddyAlduin]

1 minute ago, ZUHFB said:

I think they would find out that it does not need adjustments. The numbers aren't the issues, these fights are mechanical. The damage or survivability of classes doesn't matter at all. 

The people who can't beat do not know what the bosses do. Theres nothing more to it

You're right, the fights are mechanical; using mechanics that were designed with a specific balancing in mind! 

 

3 minutes ago, ZUHFB said:

The damage or survivability of classes doesn't matter at all. 

You don't even believe this; I'm sorry, but you simply don't. If the bosses had 27 million health, and the player had 1 health doing on average 1 damage, it would matter.

[Traceguy]

21 minutes ago, ZUHFB said:

I think they would find out that it does not need adjustments. The numbers aren't the issues, these fights are mechanical. The damage or survivability of classes doesn't matter at all. 

The people who can't beat do not know what the bosses do. Theres nothing more to it

I'm waiting until I get to Zotar to make an official opinion. The furthest I've made it one night was Drake and Nocturno. I didn't know I needed to pick up Drake's belt in order to survive Nocturno's enrage. So after more than a dozen retries I gave up. That's one example of how not knowing the mechanics will get you killed. I'm just a little scared reading these posts though hearing how your companion will die almost instantly if standing in AOE.

I think class though may determine how easy things are. I can't imagine a Rage Jugg's Obliterate will work well against Drake/Nocturno. Some of those fights force you to be in melee range too. So a range caster might have a difficult time.

Edited March 28 by Traceguy

[Crystal_Mind]

1 hour ago, DaddyAlduin said:

if you are below BIS by even a miniscule amount, it will result in a disproportionate downgrade compared to what you should actually be receiving!

Citation needed.

I've already said my current scaled stats align with Shoony's, which have been posted a couple times now. BIS right now is 343, which provides 93-99k hp depending on spec. VegaMist is in 340 and sees just shy of 89k. And in March of 2022 when cap was still 330 I had 88k hp in the championship phase.

1 hour ago, DaddyAlduin said:

I wouldn't consider an (in general) ~20% increase to boss health as "slightly higher" tbh. (1)
[...] 
it's very likely that their damage will have scaled in much the same manner (2)

1. Please reread my post. My comparison was to 6.0 (with some reference to their time upscaled to 70 during 5.x), not release. I acknowledged an increase in health from 4.x, but I believe the increase in player power and toolkit cancels it out. (An argument you do not address).

Spoiler

Boss # - 2020 - 2024
1. 158.9k = 158.9k
2. 258.5k = 258.5k
3. 232.6k = 232.6k
4. 136.9k (Chompers) = 136.9k // 256.5k (Conrad) < 258.5k (+0.7%)
5. 259.4k = 259.4k
6. 395.3k (Kintans) = 395.3k // 295.9k (Brawler) = 295.9k
7. 465.3k (Drake) = 465.3k // 258.5k (Nocturno) = 258.5k
8. 503.5k = 503.5k
9. 614.7k = 614.7k
10. 705k (Walker) = 705k // 310.2k (Zotar) = 310.2k

2. This is speculation, not an argument. It's void unless you can provide evidence.

Companions / GCDs and Cast Times / "Common Sense" Interpretations of Dev Intent
Okay. You're repeating rhetoric instead of shoring up your argument, and in case of the first two, admitting you don't actually have the knowledge to support said arguments. Nothing new to respond to, so no point restating my own opinion. 

Edited March 28 by Crystal_Mind
additional thought

[septru]

57 minutes ago, JakRoanin said:

and many other people have physical, mental, and emotional health issues that make EC much too difficult. Every point I have made is about how the game should have options for difficulty and they should fix the companions.

 

I have no bone in this fight. And really don't care about Eternal Championship. But I will say more generally, I don't think content should be balanced for disabled people. I am sympathetic to the challenges of being disabled; it would be great if game modes have various levels of difficulty. But when that's not possible, game developers should create content for the average player (or higher to give the average player a goal to work towards). And I think we can both agree that although there may be "many" people with disabilities, they are not the average. 

[MagicTerror]

I've just returned to this game last month, played a lot of my old favorite content including Eternal Championship: And I will say this: IMO, the balancing game-wide has gone to heck. I'm not going to cite stats since the git gud crowd still apparently sees them as speculation or opinion as evidenced by the previous post a couple comments ago, so to be clear this is opinion. Everything in this game has become a challenge-devoid faceroll or a needlessly hard, unrewarding slog.

-Content up to the old lvl 75 cap has become a nerf-herder army. I remember when Lost Island and Blood Hunt were supposed to have GF players instaquitting left and right when it popped up, now you can get through the bosses in half the time as before with a good group

-You can't do any ops until lvl 80, so forget about saving them to experience chronologically if you want a little nostalgic RP experience, but idk why they bothered with that since story modes like KP for example are still facerolls, and apparently Dashroode and Nefra are so easy even on MASTER MODE that fleet pugs farm it nonstop, you don't even have to do the mechanics right. so totally cheapened.

-lvl 75-80 content is only marginally better balanced, and only if you ignore instances like Secrets of the Enclave where you could bake cookies in the time it takes to whittle down a TRASH MOB's health down to zero. The health pools of endgame content sponges are holding dps to unsustainable standards where a reasonable 340 player is bashed for not being better at their job and reading every note of their discipline's Vulkk guide.

-Now Eternal Champs...I have completed it w/ sprint, back when it was endgame content and now, and I will agree with the OP that it has only gotten harder to do. I would forgive this, except BW/BSword has apparently decided not to pay the part of the team that constructed rewards for the game anymore, because all we still get is a conquest point reward and 6-10 gear pieces you immediately sell to the medical droid at the exit.

You can say this is a balance issue or a skill issue, but can the game at least make rewards more relevant if they're not going to revisit numbers' coding for anything??? Maybe play the stuff for themselves and tier stuff properly for once? 

Edited March 28 by MagicTerror

[DaddyAlduin]

27 minutes ago, Crystal_Mind said:

Citation needed.

I've already said my current scaled stats align with Shoony's, which have been posted a couple times now. BIS right now is 343, which provides 93-99k hp depending on spec. VegaMist is in 340 and sees just shy of 89k. And in March of 2022 when cap was still 330 I had 88k hp in the championship phase.

2016 BIS

- HP: 80k

- Mastery: 5,276

- Endurance: 6,400

- Power: 2,845

- Presence: 3,762

- Damage (Pri): ... - 3,250

 

Vega's 340

HP: 88,902; 11% increase.

Mastery: 5,215; 2% decrease

Endurance: 6,051; 6% decrease

Power: 3,260; 14% increase

Presence: 3,700; 1% decrease

Damage: 1,882; 43% decrease, although simply relying on this number it not a way to judge power scaling.

 

Shoony's 344

- HP: 93k; 16% increase compared to 2016, 5% increase compared to Vega.

- Mastery 5141; 3% decrease compared to 2016, 2% decrease compared to Vega.

- Endurance 6362; negligible decrease compared 2016, 5% increase compared to Vega

- Power 3478; 22% increase compared to 2016, 7% increase compared to Vega

- Damage 3154; 3% decrease from 2016, 67% increase compared to Vega, although again, the point stated above still applies.

 

Worth noting that these all vary among classes, and to get the best 1:1 comparison we would need to get someone with the same class and build as the 2016 data with them having equivalent BIS.

Also worth noting that this is in response to you stating "Set against the increase in player power, the marginal increase in boss health compared to 4.x is canceled out" 

 

27 minutes ago, Crystal_Mind said:

1. Please reread my post. My comparison was to 6.0 (with some reference to their time upscaled to 70 during 5.x), not release. 

  Hide contents

Boss # - 2020 - 2024
1. 158.9k = 158.9k
2. 258.5k = 258.5k
3. 232.6k = 232.6k
4. 136.9k (Chompers) = 136.9k // 256.5k (Conrad) < 258.5k (+0.7%)
5. 259.4k = 259.4k
6. 395.3k (Kintans) = 395.3k // 295.9k (Brawler) = 295.9k
7. 465.3k (Drake) = 465.3k // 258.5k (Nocturno) = 258.5k
8. 503.5k = 503.5k
9. 614.7k = 614.7k
10. 705k (Walker) = 705k // 310.2k (Zotar) = 310.2k

We are comparing post-7.0 player stats to 4.0 player stats; thus, we should compare post-7.0 boss health to 4.0 boss health, for the comparison and discussion to mean anything. If you wish to shift this conversation to 6.0 stats, than that's fine, but we must be consistent with our points of reference!

 

27 minutes ago, Crystal_Mind said:

 

2. This is speculation, not an argument. It's void unless you can provide evidence.

 

As BW has confirmed that enemy scaling functions in much the same way player scaling does, and due to the fact we have video evidence that allows us to compare 4.0 damage to post-7.0 damage, we can make a pretty good guess when it comes to damage having been changed; although again, we have no method of verifying exact numbers, so its less relevant than that which we can verify numbers for.

27 minutes ago, Crystal_Mind said:

Companions / GCDs and Cast Times / "Common Sense" Interpretations of Dev Intent
Okay. You're repeating rhetoric instead of shoring up your argument, and in case of the first two, admitting you don't actually have the knowledge to support said arguments. Nothing new to respond to, so no point restating my own opinion. 

In the case of the cast times having been changed and abilities being pruned, I'm stating I do not have enough specific knowledge relevant to each individual class to go into a deep discussion relevant to it; not that I lack the ability to specify why they will have had an effect on balance. That's the only thing you've really given me the ability to respond to here though, but if you would like me to get data concerning the specific changes relevant to each individual class, I can do that and we can discuss from there!

[ZUHFB]

1 hour ago, DaddyAlduin said:

You're right, the fights are mechanical; using mechanics that were designed with a specific balancing in mind!

No, they weren't. What about these fights is numerically unfair? I mean where does a boss do too much damage or has too much HP for the mechanics to be irrelevant because it would kill anyway? 

1 hour ago, DaddyAlduin said:

You don't even believe this; I'm sorry, but you simply don't. If the bosses had 27 million health, and the player had 1 health doing on average 1 damage, it would matter.

Stop moving the goalpost, I already showed that stats don't matter by doing it 169 gear. All the numbers you gave in the most recent boss are nice and well but it's possible to beat it with 50k HP, so does it really matter if we have 80k instead of 88k? The answer is no. 

36 minutes ago, MagicTerror said:

You can say this is a balance issue or a skill issue

It is neither, the problem is people can't figure out mechanics and refuse to look up a guide and then, instead of looking the mechanics up, post about it here. This I believe is problematic.

1 hour ago, Traceguy said:

I'm just a little scared reading these posts though hearing how your companion will die almost instantly if standing in AOE.

Another one of the half truths spread, in actuality we as the player have full control. Most AOEs are targeted on US, just don't be on the companion. Noteworthy here is some healers will teleport to meele range for no reason, DPS companions do not do this.

The problem is knowing that it is about to happen. Which should take like 3 tries at most, it's not rocket science, it's just rockets.

 

Edited March 28 by ZUHFB
spelling

[DaddyAlduin]

17 minutes ago, ZUHFB said:

No, they weren't. What about these fights is numerically unfair? I mean where does a boss do too much damage or has too much HP for the mechanics to be irrelevant because it would kill anyway? 

Boss fights and their mechanics are definitely designed with a specific balance in mind? That's just simply, objectively, how MMO's are designed. When you are designing an encounter in an MMO, you don't just go "Okay, we have a plan for the mechanics; let's use a random number generator for their stats," you go "Okay, this is the intended difficulty, this is the intended balancing." 

 

This discussion is simply over whether or not that balancing still holds in place!

17 minutes ago, ZUHFB said:

Stop moving the goalpost, I already showed that stats don't matter by doing it 169 gear. All the numbers you gave in the most recent boss are nice and well but it's possible to beat it with 50k HP, so does it really matter if we have 80k instead of 88k? The answer is no. 

I'm not moving the goalpost; you stated, with no room for interpretation, that damage and survivability of the PC do not matter; I explained how that is demonstrably false.

17 minutes ago, ZUHFB said:

It is neither, the problem is people can't figure out mechanics and refuse to look up a guide and then, instead of looking the mechanics up, post about it here. This I believe is problematic.

This isn't addressed at me, but I need to say this; don't assume the reason that people are here, don't automatically try and accuse them of whatever it is you're trying to accuse people of. It's petty, adds nothing to the conversation, and is not a good look to anyone who may look into this thread. Again, we are all just here to discuss a game we enjoy!