Whattaya know, I did. I will take full responsibility; I either messed up my math real bad or mistyped; either way, it's irrelevant, I made an objectively false claim, and I will take full responsibility for it. Ehh, I'd argue against it equalling out. Due to how scaling and stats in SWTOR works, and in general most MMO's, attempting a 1:1 comparison of stat increases and framing it as the "be-all end-all" of balancing. Not saying that's what you're doing, more of a generalized statement. I mean in this thread alone we've had multiple people critiquing old content for being unbalanced (Ex. Story mode uprisings and KOTxx vet mode, as an example) so I really don't think, even if I didn't believe the ET was unbalanced, that saying "they pretty much guarantee (overbuffing of old content) can't happen" would be accurate. Thats... an example of difficulty? Extending the length of a fight by a significant amount of time is a difficulty increase! It may not be your standard harder mechanics, higher damage, w/e, but that is still very much an increase in difficulty! I mean that's still an increase in difficulty, and often times direct health increases can have a direct effect on the difficulty of mechanics! To use an example I brought up earlier, DPS checks are a mechanic based solely on "Do the players output enough damage to burn down this boss in a specific amount of time" and any increase to health would have a massive effect on that! Hell, to use an example from the EC specifically; if the adds you need to burn down to prevent the DoomDroid's pulse suddenly got 200k extra health, would you say that would have no effect on the difficulty? My point isn't "this one specific ability is gone thus fight broken," my point is that "the games design and general balancing has changed." And don't get me wrong, I wish companions didn't play such a vital role in SWTOR! But Alas it (was) a Bioware game, and as such 99% of solo content has been designed with the premise of the player having a comp. I'll get hard numbers for the difference between 324-336-344 gear tomorrow, so that way we can discuss whether it matters with numbers to back us up. "Conclusion: we still don't know what bosses are overtuned or why they are" -Statement "as I've said they probably feel overtuned because mechanics are unknown."-Assumption "We still don't know what classes would struggle beating any of the bosses."-Statement "Saying "they got 75% stronger" isn't a reason, give the wookie in ravagers 75% more HP and damage and he still does nothing, just one of countless examples."-Statement and assumption Ain't saying anything you're saying in this particular bit is wrong or cringe or anything, just that it's not something I can particularly reply to! Also I do apologize for my slow replies compared to previously, I have not had as much free time lately as before.

To greatly oversimplify my points, yes, that is what I said. Yet... you're claiming I didn't give any reasoning within the same paragraph that you listed an overview of my points? I never stated any boss was 75% harder? I stated that they, on average, objectively received a 20% health boost, and knowing what we know about how scaling works compared to contents initial balancing its relatively safe to assume that their damage has been scaled in much the same way. Adding HP, if that was to be my only concern, would still be an increase in difficulty; HP has a direct effect on balancing my boi! Cool; this is just ignoring my point. My point is that fundamental changes have occurred within the design of classes that have resulted in them working differently than they were on the EC's release. And you are free to think that they're a lackluster system, and that's something I'd even agree with; but that's irrelevant to my point! My point is their power level has fundamentally changed compared to the power level that the EC was designed around.p Gear does indeed matter; just because you personally are able to circumvent something, does not mean it does not matter. Gear and stats matter to fights; that's simply how balancing of literally any game works! Again, I never said any boss was "75%" stronger, and the rest of this is just assumptions.

I've gone over multiple reasons I believe it's unbalanced multiple times

I've highlighted multiple reasons I believe the EC is unbalanced in this thread, and i can go over them again if you wish, but it isn't as simple as "This specific attack does more damage than it should!" Are you asking me to go over every death I had?

My brother in christ, our entire discussion up-to this point has been my highlighting specific things that have led me believe it is not balanced correctly, and us discussing whether my beliefs are accurate or not! Would you like for me to go over it again? If I did a bad job of explaining anything in specific, I am more than willing to go more in-depth and explain my thoughts process if you want!

Balance is directly tied to how mechanics play out my man! Enrage timers are a mechanic; yet if the fight has not been properly balanced, it becomes more difficult to manage them than intended. If a fight has a mechanic related to burning down ads, and those ads are overtuned compared to the design, than the mechanic becomes harder than intended to manage. DPS checks are a mechanic *solely* based off of stat numbers! Correct; but balance has an effect on how those mechanics are played! The rest of this isn't really something I will reply to, as it would essentially be me and you going "I say this" "Well I say this!" and that's not really the type of discussion that leads anywhere

I wouldn't believe it's unbalanced at all, and I would push back against anyone advocating for a nerf! I'll stress it again; my issue isn't difficulty, it isn't that it's content intended to not be completable by anyone; it's that I believe that the balance no longer fits the original design. If BS was to come out within the next 5 minutes and say that it was balanced exactly as designed, I would have absolutely no complaints and would stand behind their decision and the EC's balancing without question! Weird that it was saying I was typing; mayhaps a side effect of me using mobile? Obviously not something important or even related to the discussion, but I'm sure you can tell this is my first time using the forum and as such am not aware of all its features and quirks lel

Player power has remained relatively stagnant; I've openly stated and advocated that players will have had their skill increase within the many years since its release; its others who have claimed the opposite! I've clarified multiple times that the one shot I was complaining about was not the Doom Droids's pulse; and me clearing it has nothing to do with what this discussion is about. And you're right, just because something has changed, does not mean it's broken; this entire discussion is based around the premise of discovering whether or not the changes it has undergone have resulted in its balance being messed up! Me simply stating "it messed up" has the exact same worth as you saying "no it ain't" which is why we are here discussing it! Even if absolutely nothing balancewise changes, I still wouldn't regret starting this thread! I think I've had quite a few worthwhile discussions, and whilst not everyone may agree with what I'm saying, I still think it's been worth it to get their perspectives and reasons for why they disagree with me! Yes, which is why I've brought up the core design changes that would have had an effect on the balancing of the fight! And you're right, it has indeed gone through multiple iterations as the game has gone through updates that have affected the core gameplay loop; which is why we should compare to its state upon release, as that is the best example of have of what it was originally designed to be! And you are entirely free to hold those beliefs, just as I am free to hold mine; that's why we are here discussing it, in an attempt to figure out if the balance has truly been messed up or not! That wasn't a strawman; it was a hyperbole, just as his original statement was one. He made an extreme claim in saying "the damage and survivability of classes does not matter" so I used an extreme example to show that the claim doesn't hold up.

My guy please, good faith. All you are doing is souring people towards your opinion, and its adding nothing to the discussion.

Boss fights and their mechanics are definitely designed with a specific balance in mind? That's just simply, objectively, how MMO's are designed. When you are designing an encounter in an MMO, you don't just go "Okay, we have a plan for the mechanics; let's use a random number generator for their stats," you go "Okay, this is the intended difficulty, this is the intended balancing." This discussion is simply over whether or not that balancing still holds in place! I'm not moving the goalpost; you stated, with no room for interpretation, that damage and survivability of the PC do not matter; I explained how that is demonstrably false. This isn't addressed at me, but I need to say this; don't assume the reason that people are here, don't automatically try and accuse them of whatever it is you're trying to accuse people of. It's petty, adds nothing to the conversation, and is not a good look to anyone who may look into this thread. Again, we are all just here to discuss a game we enjoy!

2016 BIS - HP: 80k - Mastery: 5,276 - Endurance: 6,400 - Power: 2,845 - Presence: 3,762 - Damage (Pri): ... - 3,250 Vega's 340 HP: 88,902; 11% increase. Mastery: 5,215; 2% decrease Endurance: 6,051; 6% decrease Power: 3,260; 14% increase Presence: 3,700; 1% decrease Damage: 1,882; 43% decrease, although simply relying on this number it not a way to judge power scaling. Shoony's 344 - HP: 93k; 16% increase compared to 2016, 5% increase compared to Vega. - Mastery 5141; 3% decrease compared to 2016, 2% decrease compared to Vega. - Endurance 6362; negligible decrease compared 2016, 5% increase compared to Vega - Power 3478; 22% increase compared to 2016, 7% increase compared to Vega - Damage 3154; 3% decrease from 2016, 67% increase compared to Vega, although again, the point stated above still applies. Worth noting that these all vary among classes, and to get the best 1:1 comparison we would need to get someone with the same class and build as the 2016 data with them having equivalent BIS. Also worth noting that this is in response to you stating "Set against the increase in player power, the marginal increase in boss health compared to 4.x is canceled out" We are comparing post-7.0 player stats to 4.0 player stats; thus, we should compare post-7.0 boss health to 4.0 boss health, for the comparison and discussion to mean anything. If you wish to shift this conversation to 6.0 stats, than that's fine, but we must be consistent with our points of reference! As BW has confirmed that enemy scaling functions in much the same way player scaling does, and due to the fact we have video evidence that allows us to compare 4.0 damage to post-7.0 damage, we can make a pretty good guess when it comes to damage having been changed; although again, we have no method of verifying exact numbers, so its less relevant than that which we can verify numbers for. In the case of the cast times having been changed and abilities being pruned, I'm stating I do not have enough specific knowledge relevant to each individual class to go into a deep discussion relevant to it; not that I lack the ability to specify why they will have had an effect on balance. That's the only thing you've really given me the ability to respond to here though, but if you would like me to get data concerning the specific changes relevant to each individual class, I can do that and we can discuss from there!

You're right, the fights are mechanical; using mechanics that were designed with a specific balancing in mind! You don't even believe this; I'm sorry, but you simply don't. If the bosses had 27 million health, and the player had 1 health doing on average 1 damage, it would matter.

Thank you, this is all I wanted from you before you left!

Yes, I understand that, and while I don't specifically agree with all of your points, I can understand why you're making them! But personally attacking others, accusing them of things, whatever, is not in good faith, and does nothing but sour the entire discussion.

Can you both try and keep this in good faith? Come on, we are all just here to discuss a game we enjoy, there's no reason to get personally heated.