Nerf Guard!

[Rafiknoll]

CC'ing support and blowing a dd/healer up is exactly what hardswitch is already about.

 

True enough. That alone is not enough reason to let tanks still deal non-insignificant damage. But combined with the other reasons I think the ~40% less DPS and ~40% less DTPS is the best balance [and is usually what I see when fighting, when not using CDs and when not stunned (taking 360 damage from energy burst while stunned got that PT killed. Love this utility ). Too much will make them the ultimate node guards, but incapable of anything else, too little will make them DPS, but whatever BioWare does, don't leave the system which enables skanks (most of the benefits with a really slight drawback) as it is. And when nerfing, nerf the less necessary side, not the tanky side, or even better, manage to nerf in a way that harms only skanks, maybe reduce passive DR while increasing the effectiveness of the DR coming from stats to result in the same DR for those who gear tanky? Alternatively, increase the importance of "force/tech power" coming from ONLY mainhand and offhand (and the shield gives diminishing returns compared to focus or generator). It has quite an effect on the yellow damage you can deal, so make it affect even more. Then tie the passive damage reduction to holding a shield, which means the skanks won't be able to benefit from high damage and high armor at the same time, and we are all set.

[SlimeyDoom]

Oh no regs are being ruined whatever shall we do remove guard and healers omg omg omg omg

[kissingaiur]

Oh no regs are being ruined whatever shall we do remove guard and healers omg omg omg omg

 

lol I like you.

 

If there was match making in regs this thread wouldn’t exists.

[Liquor]

lol I like you.

 

If there was match making in regs this thread wouldn’t exists.

 

If shltters knew their roles, abilities, and how to play objectives this thread wouldn't exist

 

Guard isnt an issue when you know how the mechanics works. 1 player can melt guard to 1/4 HP while the tank has 1/3 HP. Make it a 2 vs 2 fight and guard means nothing.

 

I did this all weekend. PT tank guarding a jugg. PT tank guarding a sin. Jugg guarding a sniper, sin guarding a sorc. Sin guarding a sin. Every 1 vs 2 fight I entered ended either me killing both or dieing with the 2 being at 1/4 and 1/3 HP.

 

When I got some help, both defenders died before help could arrive. Knowing when to use a dcd, stun, root, push is a must. If you don't understand the basics of your class and the classes you're going against, you might as well /stuck it, logoff, and uninstall the game

 

 

Tank tunnel, healer tunnel or dps tunnel. 3 selections and not all correct. Depends on player skill, comms, and meta. Guard alone isn't the issue.

[kissingaiur]

If shltters knew their roles, abilities, and how to play objectives this thread wouldn't exist

 

Guard isnt an issue when you know how the mechanics works. 1 player can melt guard to 1/4 HP while the tank has 1/3 HP. Make it a 2 vs 2 fight and guard means nothing.

 

I did this all weekend. PT tank guarding a jugg. PT tank guarding a sin. Jugg guarding a sniper, sin guarding a sorc. Sin guarding a sin. Every 1 vs 2 fight I entered ended either me killing both or dieing with the 2 being at 1/4 and 1/3 HP.

 

When I got some help, both defenders died before help could arrive. Knowing when to use a dcd, stun, root, push is a must. If you don't understand the basics of your class and the classes you're going against, you might as well /stuck it, logoff, and uninstall the game

 

 

Tank tunnel, healer tunnel or dps tunnel. 3 selections and not all correct. Depends on player skill, comms, and meta. Guard alone isn't the issue.

 

Preaching to the converted. The only reason they see it as a “problem” because in regs these players get 3 tanks and 3 healers in one game and freak out. Healing isn’t the issue or guard. Maybe it’s the fact that literally everyone on the other team is a support player and that is why they can’t get a kill. But players in regs don’t like to hear that. They just want to grab their pitch forks and blame this on guard lol. There is no perspective at all.

 

I pretty much repeated this like a million times in this thread by now.

[Elusive_Thing]

If shltters knew their roles, abilities, and how to play objectives this thread wouldn't exist

 

Guard isnt an issue when you know how the mechanics works. 1 player can melt guard to 1/4 HP while the tank has 1/3 HP. Make it a 2 vs 2 fight and guard means nothing.

So you faced some undergeared and terrible players. Yeah, I've tunneled through Sorc healers on a Deception Sin, it means nothing if the other player has no idea what he is doing. As a matter of fact, your entire post has nothing of value in it whatsoever.

[kissingaiur]

So you faced some undergeared and terrible players. Yeah, I've tunneled through Sorc healers on a Deception Sin, it means nothing if the other player has no idea what he is doing. As a matter of fact, your entire post has nothing of value in it whatsoever.

 

He is right though. There are many ways to play around a guard in this game and get kills. It happens in group ranked and solo ranked all the time. Sometimes people die in under a minute. With 1-2 tank going around there should never be an issue with it. If it’s 3 tanks and like 3 healers than it’s a pure matchmaking issue; has nothing to do with the guard mechanic. There is no way you can get a kill or suppose to get a kill verse that comp (unless they are terrible).

[Aeneas_Falco]

So make them unequip their gosh darn DPS gear already. If needed, by giving them a stacking debuff that reduces damage done by 50% for every non-tank mod equipped.

 

 

 

In PvE you rarely have a boss focusing a DPS, even rarer you have them mezzing the tanks/healers and hardswapping to a DPS. In PvE DPS also do not spend a considerable time out of fight running back, kiting, LoSing. In PvE you also often have close to perfect uptime, where in PvP you do not.

 

Even if dummy parses show a big difference between DPS of skanks and real DPS, the scoreboards at the end of matches say otherwise.

 

Exactly that.

 

What happens in Ops or dummy parsing is irrelevant because PVP is an entirely different beast,. In PVP skanks are not infrequently at or near the top of the DPS leaderboards. That should not be. They're every bit as OP as mercs or snipers and need adjusting.

 

The survivability of most tanks fine, what needs adjusting downward is damage output. Put simply, skank tanking should come with a hefty trade off. If you're geared for DPS your survivability should drop significantly as well as the effectiveness of guard and taunts. Tank stats like defense, shield, and absorb should also be reworked to make pure tanking worthwhile.

Edited February 6, 2018 by Aeneas_Falco

[KendraP]

Exactly that.

 

What happens in Ops or dummy parsing is irrelevant because PVP is an entirely different beast,. In PVP skanks are not infrequently at or near the top of the DPS leaderboards. That should not be. They're every bit as OP as mercs or snipers and need adjusting.

 

Again while I agree it shouldn't be possible the point of the numbers is to show that, in fact, were dps calculations to include considerations of combat time, skanks wouldn't be considered as good a dps as a dps while being a tank. If they were there would be 6 skanks every operation because why pressure healers if skanks can do the dps of a dps? A 4k dps differenceis hardly inconsequential. But again. I agree tanks shouldn't be topping damage boards and have outlined how I would fix it more times than I care to count.

 

The survivability of most tanks fine, what needs adjusting downward is damage output. Put simply, skank tanking should come with a hefty trade off. If you're geared for DPS your survivability should drop significantly as well as the effectiveness of guard and taunts. Tank stats like defense, shield, and absorb should also be reworked to make pure tanking worthwhile.

 

You finally hit on the underlying issue. If I felt tank stats helped me I'd gladly run them. I don't particularly want a nerf hammer to damage with no accompanying benefit to running tank gear.

 

I would accept a nerf hammer to PvP damage if It meant tank stats did something. Most likely since you would he shattering tank damage, this means a slight survivability buff through tank stats.

 

All this, however, must be done without somehow affecting PvE. Unless my 2.5-3k dps there is op.

Edited February 6, 2018 by KendraP

[Schoock]

Nevermind. Posted in the wrong thread. Edited February 6, 2018 by Schoock

[Elusive_Thing]

He is right though. There are many ways to play around a guard in this game and get kills. It happens in group ranked and solo ranked all the time. Sometimes people die in under a minute. With 1-2 tank going around there should never be an issue with it. If it’s 3 tanks and like 3 healers than it’s a pure matchmaking issue; has nothing to do with the guard mechanic. There is no way you can get a kill or suppose to get a kill verse that comp (unless they are terrible).

Sure, but 2 vs. 1'ing people in regs is hardly any evidence of that. It's obvious that it wouldn't happen if the two weren't terrible.

[SlimeyDoom]

Sure, but 2 vs. 1'ing people in regs is hardly any evidence of that. It's obvious that it wouldn't happen if the two weren't terrible.

 

 

A group ranked buddy of mine started recording his matches. Do you notice how tanks can be cc'ed? Guard is not an issue, matchmaking and terrible dps are the issue. Can this thread please die now.

[Elusive_Thing]

 

A group ranked buddy of mine started recording his matches. Do you notice how tanks can be cc'ed? Guard is not an issue, matchmaking and terrible dps are the issue. Can this thread please die now.

Almost as if group ranked and regs were a different thing! Someone was bragging about 2 vs. 1'ing people in regs and I pointed out that has no bearing, because obviously those people had to be terrible.Please find out the context of the posts you are responding to.

[SlimeyDoom]

Almost as if group ranked and regs were a different thing! Someone was bragging about 2 vs. 1'ing people in regs and I pointed out that has no bearing.

 

My bad, you go tell that regstar off for being arrogant! Doing God's work in here.... :rolleyes:

[kissingaiur]

Almost as if group ranked and regs were a different thing! Someone was bragging about 2 vs. 1'ing people in regs and I pointed out that has no bearing, because obviously those people had to be terrible.Please find out the context of the posts you are responding to.

 

Do you ever wonder why ranked players never complain about guard? It's because it's not a problem at all; it never has been. People die all the time in ranked with a guard in play, sometimes two (in solo ranked).

 

Tell me if the only area in PvP which struggles with guard is in regs and other areas of pvp which have matchmaking (or soft matchmaking) doesn't, what is the logical conclusion then?

 

It's either:

A) Match Making

B) L2P issue (skill disparity)

 

I don't understand how this concept is so hard to rationalize. This thread is just a meme.

[KendraP]

Do you ever wonder why ranked players never complain about guard? It's because it's not a problem at all; it never has been. People die all the time in ranked with a guard in play, sometimes two (in solo ranked).

 

Tell me if the only area in PvP which struggles with guard is in regs and other areas of pvp which have matchmaking (or soft matchmaking) doesn't, what is the logical conclusion then?

 

It's either:

A) Match Making

B) L2P issue (skill disparity)

 

I don't understand how this concept is so hard to rationalize. This thread is just a meme.

 

Thank you lol maybe they'll listen to you XD

[Aeneas_Falco]

Do you ever wonder why ranked players never complain about guard? It's because it's not a problem at all; it never has been. People die all the time in ranked with a guard in play, sometimes two (in solo ranked).

 

Tell me if the only area in PvP which struggles with guard is in regs and other areas of pvp which have matchmaking (or soft matchmaking) doesn't, what is the logical conclusion then?

 

It's either:

A) Match Making

B) L2P issue (skill disparity)

 

I don't understand how this concept is so hard to rationalize. This thread is just a meme.

 

Guard isn't a problem in reg arenas either. Or at least it isn't when the matchmaking gods haven't stacked the deck against you. So long as the objective is just to kill the other team it can be countered.

 

Having said that...arenas, whether reg or ranked, are very different than the average warzone. The issue with guarded healers in warzones is the TTK is long enough that even if both teams are evenly matched, the one that captures two nodes first most likely wins. Healer-tank combos aren't invulnerable but if even of average skill they can last long enough at nodes to almost prevent their capture indefinitely. Even when they do die the TTK is long enough that respawns make it back to break caps. That leaves going for the node where the healer & tank aren't the best strategy, but that is only possible if they only have one healer and one tank. If they've got two, it's probably GG.

 

The only exception to that is Yavin where the 4 second mod at least introduces the possibility of capping nodes without having cleared off the defenders first.

 

And before someone says it...I'm aware that CC enables you to capture nodes without clearing defenders as well, but in anything less than a premade or soloing a node where there is only one defender...that probably isn't going to happen. Pugs usually lack the coordination to time CC effectively and the more people you have fighting over a node the greater the likelihood someone (probably a Marauder ) is going to break mez. Generally speaking in order to cap nodes with defenders present when in a pug, assuming you're aren't soloing that node, you either need to near clear that node completely of opponents or pray that the other team are tunnelers who will practically ignore the cap.

 

To be clear I don't have an issue with just Guard. I have an issue with the long TTK across the board. If it were up to me I'd strip all DPS of tanky defenses and self heals, change how guard works in pvp to give it some more vulnerabilities, and make skank tanking come with the tradeoff of guard and taunts effectiveness being reduced at the same rate that damage output is increased by wearing DPS gear. In trade defense, shield, and absorb should actually do something in PVP.

 

Level 70 PVP would be a lot more fun if it was as fast-paced as lowbies or midbies, with nodes always feeling like they are potentially in play.

Edited February 7, 2018 by Aeneas_Falco

[peterhine]

50% damage reduction, no cool down lasts until death.

 

/stupid overpowered

 

This is why healers are so hard to kill; healers without guard are not that hard to kill.

 

To make it even more stupid DPS have this.

facts, its so damn difficult to kill them and they are stupidly overpowered, instead of nerfing the characters easy to kill, they should nerf the characters impossible to kill

[Rafiknoll]

facts, its so damn difficult to kill them and they are stupidly overpowered, instead of nerfing the characters easy to kill, they should nerf the characters impossible to kill

 

You are post #318, yet reply directly to the OP. That indicates that you didn't read the conversation and all that you have said is repeatedly countered along this thread. There is nothing singularly impossible to kill. There is no pair that cannot be killed by another pair. A pair of DPS will have harder time killing tank+healer rather than 2 DPS, but versus DPS they have greater chance to die instead. One DPS can't soli an equally skilled pair of any roles. So far all is fair. Where is the problem?

[MuskyBoy]

To fix guard all you need to do have players use tank stats (say 2000 shield/absorb) for it to become active. if players do not reach this cap then no guard in PVP. This will lower the absurd damage skanks do and no dps in their right mind would sacrifice 2000 dps stats for tanking stats. No OP tanks doing stupid amounts of damge, No dps with guards. Game better.

[Elusive_Thing]

Do you ever wonder why ranked players never complain about guard? It's because it's not a problem at all; it never has been. People die all the time in ranked with a guard in play, sometimes two (in solo ranked).

 

Tell me if the only area in PvP which struggles with guard is in regs and other areas of pvp which have matchmaking (or soft matchmaking) doesn't, what is the logical conclusion then?

 

It's either:

A) Match Making

B) L2P issue (skill disparity)

 

I don't understand how this concept is so hard to rationalize. This thread is just a meme.

Yeah, it's definitely those two. Even without any matchmaking, a lot of the problem could be mitigated if players know who to target and so on. Based on this post though, you too seem to have some problems with context.

[kissingaiur]

Yeah, it's definitely those two. Even without any matchmaking, a lot of the problem could be mitigated if players know who to target and so on. Based on this post though, you too seem to have some problems with context.

 

This thread is all about players wanting to nerf a mechanic WHICH ISNT EVEN BROKEN. To try to “fix” this game just because average joe doesn’t understand not to tunnel into guard in a casual pvp environment. Regs in this game are literally an rng nightmare. Every game either has no healers or all support classes. Then when the rng gods have finally gave you a decent team comp, you get a tank who doesn’t guard anyone and dps who all do under 1k. Tell me how is that not the biggest issue. There is really no real competition in regs if majority of players don’t know what they are doing. So the counters to guard (which are many) therefore have a hard time manifesting.

 

That’s why I repeat this is a pure matchmaking and L2P issue.

 

If matchmaking existed in regs no one would complain about tanks because they would only have 1-2 and you’ll all finally see how trash guard is unless the person as a brain. I’m sure at that point players would beg to buff guard.

[Raansu]

This thread is all about players wanting to nerf a mechanic WHICH ISNT EVEN BROKEN. To try to “fix” this game just because average joe doesn’t understand not to tunnel into guard in a casual pvp environment. Regs in this game are literally an rng nightmare. Every game either has no healers or all support classes. Then when the rng gods have finally gave you a decent team comp, you get a tank who doesn’t guard anyone and dps who all do under 1k. Tell me how is that not the biggest issue. There is really no real competition in regs if majority of players don’t know what they are doing. So the counters to guard (which are many) therefore have a hard time manifesting.

 

That’s why I repeat this is a pure matchmaking and L2P issue.

 

If matchmaking existed in regs no one would complain about tanks because they would only have 1-2 and you’ll all finally see how trash guard is unless the person as a brain. I’m sure at that point players would beg to buff guard.

 

Guard has been overtuned since day 1. Guard is the main reason why 8v8 ranked matches were almost always stalemates, guard is the reason why 4v4 ranked almost always goes to the acid. There's nothing wrong with guard as a concept, it's a great concept and gives tanks value in pvp, but 50% is way too strong and one of the main reasons why TTK is so long.

[yellow_]

guard is the reason why 4v4 ranked almost always goes to the acid.

this hasn't been the case for a while and even when it was a huge problem it was primarily caused by too much healing going out (which has since been largely fixed) and years of DCD creep (not fixed yet)

 

guard really had little to do with it

Guard is the main reason why 8v8 ranked matches were almost always stalemates

8v8 was prone to stalemates for one of the same reasons (dcd creep) and, most of all, the fact that warzones like civil war, voidstar, and hypergate require you to nearly wipe a team or a group of players to actually cap anything if they know how to turtle and rotate (which is very low hanging fruit for a serious player)

 

people definitely died in 8v8 despite guard

Edited February 7, 2018 by yellow_

[Elusive_Thing]

This thread is all about players wanting to nerf a mechanic WHICH ISNT EVEN BROKEN. To try to “fix” this game just because average joe doesn’t understand not to tunnel into guard in a casual pvp environment. Regs in this game are literally an rng nightmare. Every game either has no healers or all support classes. Then when the rng gods have finally gave you a decent team comp, you get a tank who doesn’t guard anyone and dps who all do under 1k. Tell me how is that not the biggest issue. There is really no real competition in regs if majority of players don’t know what they are doing. So the counters to guard (which are many) therefore have a hard time manifesting.

 

That’s why I repeat this is a pure matchmaking and L2P issue.

 

If matchmaking existed in regs no one would complain about tanks because they would only have 1-2 and you’ll all finally see how trash guard is unless the person as a brain. I’m sure at that point players would beg to buff guard.

But I agree with it being a matchmaking and skill parity issue. I just pointed out that a Sniper winning 2 vs. 1 fights in regs hardly shows that Guard is balanced, because obviously the two players had to be bad. So I disagree with an asinine piece of anecdotal evidence, not with what the underlying problems are.