Nerf Guard!

[Aeneas_Falco]

sounds like the personal defense cooldowns of non tank classes needs to be rebalanced, guard is working as intended but no dps should be able to tank even with guard on them

 

Guard should also be at reduced effectiveness (by half) if a tank is geared like a DPS. Skank tanking should come with a tradeoff, that tradeoff being that in exchange for your increased damage output you can't protect other players as well as someone in tank gear.

 

Of course before that happens Bioware would have to change how tanks function in warzones so that it is actually worthwhile to gear according to your trinity role. Because right now there is no incentive to playing as a "pure" tank and a lot of downsides. Hence the current skank tank meta. People who would rather play their trinity role go skank tank because they have to if they want to get the most out of their class.

 

PVP needs some revamping. You've got tanks that function almost as well as pure DPS, DPS specs with self heals or tank level DCDs, and one of the healer specs (two if you count the opposite faction mirror) that feels more like a tank/healer hybrid. There are way too many jacks-of-all-trades in this game and that is why PVP in SWTOR often feels broken. Time to reset with a future update and have tanks that function as pure tanks, DPS that are glass cannons without guard or healing, and healers that can't face tank.

Edited January 9, 2018 by Aeneas_Falco

[Rafiknoll]

Guard should also be at reduced effectiveness if a tank is geared like a DPS. Skank tanking should come with a tradeoff, that tradeoff being that in exchange for your increased damage output you can't protect other players as well as someone in tank gear.

 

Love the idea of guard refering to a tanky stat, just hoping it isn't def rating because I am not increasing that otherwise useless stat beyond what high Endu tank enhancements give me.

Another possibility, which was suggested before but I can't find it, is that guard deals extra damage to the tank (let's say ~75% instead of 50%, for kinetic and energy damage, but is now mitigated by tank stats (I/E damage should remain same because tank stats don't mitigate it anyway). It would require more programming, though, as guard is now quite simply programmed and doesn't actually "know" which attack caused the damage that the guard diverts.

 

On top of that a Sniper can use a DCD that last 20+ secs, making his base mitigation roughly 60% and adding Guard to that can make him immune to death unless attacked by 5+ players when healed. That is basicly all DDs in an entire WZ and twice as much as what is need to break even with Class A. Class A is then instantly killed and Class B can survive almost forever.

Just a correction here: this 60% is only versus AoEs, not direct damage and dot damage (and the dot from AoE dot-spread is not considered AoE for that matter). But yes, basically focusing an entrenched guarded healed sniper is not a good idea

Edited January 9, 2018 by Rafiknoll

[Foambreaker]

M a t c h m a k i n g

a

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m

a

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Years too late, pup side on SS is already having queue issues off peak.

 

Soon they will be working on a 5 into 1 server merge and if you don't think they would burn EU that way, just ask APAC.

[AdjeYo]

Love the idea of guard refering to a tanky stat, just hoping it isn't def rating because I am not increasing that otherwise useless stat beyond what high Endu tank enhancements give me.

Another possibility, which was suggested before but I can't find it, is that guard deals extra damage to the tank (let's say ~75% instead of 50%, for kinetic and energy damage, but is now mitigated by tank stats (I/E damage should remain same because tank stats don't mitigate it anyway). It would require more programming, though, as guard is now quite simply programmed and doesn't actually "know" which attack caused the damage that the guard diverts.

Now it's been a while since I tested this, so it might have changed over time. But guard does remember the kind of damage, as you can shield shieldable attacks through guard (I think also defend defendable attacks but again it's been a while) you just won't see any text indicating it. But they should be logged in your parses, though they might be hard to find as there's no indication on whether damage is received directly from the source or redirected through guard (at least both starparse and parsely don't display it).

So basically this would be a pretty big nerf to guard, but not really something that will hit skanks particularly harder than tanks gearing for mitigation.

Edited January 9, 2018 by AdjeYo

[Laforet]

guard is and has been overpowered in 4s since we were beta testing arenas on the PTS many many yeras ago.

 

we have made threads about it. no one listened.

 

im ok with the guard mechanic, im ok with tanks in pvp, im ok with skank tanking. hell, id rather fight skank tanks than full tanks that do nothing and just delay the match. let there be damage, let there be fun.

 

guards problem isnt the feature itself, its just that its mechanics have too much impact in the game without being engaging.

 

guard has no cd.

 

guard has no dr.

 

theres not really counterplay to guard other than stunning the tank (saying something is fine bc stunning is never a solution because it counterplays p much everything).

 

lets say mercenary missle does 100k damage, we could still counter it by chain stunning the merc, but it still wouldnt be fair game, right?

 

guard stacks with taunts, tanks have two taunts one single target the other aoe, they are on low cds and cost no resources. taunts also have little counterplay except stunning the tank so he cant taunt or attacking the tank while youre taunted.

 

with a single button even a clicker player with some basic pvp awarenes (very basic indeed) can stonewall multiple dps.

 

guard lowers the skill floor of healers to an unnaceptable level in 4s.

 

"bad" is a point of view. a challenger player wrecks people in bgs and calls them bads but he himself is a bad to glads. youre always a bad to someone.

 

guard funnels the win conditions in 4s. to win you HAVE TO cc the tank AND the healer and peel the target dps defensives on several. this "one and only" win condition leads to lack of creativity play, scripted swaps and overall lowering of the skill floor for everyone.

 

back in the day, wow arena was good because everyone could die at any point on the match depending on positioning and cd usage. this made the game engaging and opened up creative plays and innovative ways to win.

 

wow pvp has become scripted for various reasons and thus is **** now. swtor pvp is scripted because guard makes it scripted.

 

swtor without guard = great game. swtor with guard = quirky modern wow.

 

when you get into an arena, providing both teams have healers, you #1 win condition is to have guard, your #2 win condition is how good is your dps sin at offguarding (zurules im looking at you).

 

theres ways to adress guards and tanks in pvp, p much anything is better than guard.

 

they can remove guard and lock taunts to tank disciplines. tanks would still be super relevant (taunt is strong as fck) and the game would play harder, faster, less scripted and with more creativity flowing. healer skill floor would go high and thats a good thing. healers are very strong in this patch and most dps classes (sry ptech you sck) have adequade defensive cds.

 

they can make guard a flat damage reduction. would still be very strong and fair game. would speed up the game and punish fck ups. fck ups must be punished.

 

bad healers are caried by guard. good healers are "elevated" to gods because of guard, but truly great and amazing healers are diminished bc we have to play into this "box" mechanic.

 

unleash the game biowar.

 

we can make this change.

 

no more script. pls.

[KendraP]

 

guards problem isnt the feature itself, its just that its mechanics have too much impact in the game without being engaging.

 

healers don't have a major impact on the game? I still don't hear anyone complaining about them. Tanking's a trinity role just as much as they are or as damage dealing is. I should have an impact at least as much as them.

 

theres not really counterplay to guard other than stunning the tank (saying something is fine bc stunning is never a solution because it counterplays p much everything).

 

The number of times I have died to teams with no tank would seem to claim otherwise.

 

guard stacks with taunts, tanks have two taunts one single target the other aoe, they are on low cds and cost no resources. taunts also have little counterplay except stunning the tank so he cant taunt or attacking the tank while youre taunted.

 

All tank capable classes have 2 taunts in PvP. Dps taunt in PvP works just like a tank taunt. Shoot Dps can technically guard now. They're just so squishy they're terrible at it.

 

with a single button even a clicker player with some basic pvp awarenes (very basic indeed) can stonewall multiple dps.

 

That's sort of the point

 

swtor without guard = great game. swtor with guard = quirky modern wow.

 

Given the taunt clarification I mentioned, what exactly would be the point of tanking without guard?

 

when you get into an arena, providing both teams have healers, you #1 win condition is to have guard, your #2 win condition is how good is your dps sin at offguarding (zurules im looking at you).

 

As I mentioned before tanking is a role equally important to healing and damage dealing, why shouldn't we be the key to such a match? Also if a dps guards just squish him. They aren't going to be guarding long under pressure.

 

they can remove guard and lock taunts to tank disciplines. tanks would still be super relevant (taunt is strong as fck) and the game would play harder, faster, less scripted and with more creativity flowing. healer skill floor would go high and thats a good thing. healers are very strong in this patch and most dps classes (sry ptech you sck) have adequade defensive cds.

 

I don't feel that this would do anything except make no one go tank, but that's my humble opinion.

 

they can make guard a flat damage reduction. would still be very strong and fair game. would speed up the game

 

see my above point.

 

bad healers are caried by guard. good healers are "elevated" to gods because of guard, but truly great and amazing healers are diminished bc we have to play into this "box" mechanic.

 

Tanks SHOULD make a huge difference to ANY role. Again, that's the point.

 

Also, can we please just let this thread die now?

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

guard is and has been overpowered in 4s since we were beta testing arenas on the PTS many many yeras ago.

 

we have made threads about it. no one listened.

 

im ok with the guard mechanic, im ok with tanks in pvp, im ok with skank tanking. hell, id rather fight skank tanks than full tanks that do nothing and just delay the match. let there be damage, let there be fun.

 

guards problem isnt the feature itself, its just that its mechanics have too much impact in the game without being engaging.

 

guard has no cd.

 

guard has no dr.

 

theres not really counterplay to guard other than stunning the tank (saying something is fine bc stunning is never a solution because it counterplays p much everything).

 

lets say mercenary missle does 100k damage, we could still counter it by chain stunning the merc, but it still wouldnt be fair game, right?

 

guard stacks with taunts, tanks have two taunts one single target the other aoe, they are on low cds and cost no resources. taunts also have little counterplay except stunning the tank so he cant taunt or attacking the tank while youre taunted.

 

with a single button even a clicker player with some basic pvp awarenes (very basic indeed) can stonewall multiple dps.

 

guard lowers the skill floor of healers to an unnaceptable level in 4s.

 

"bad" is a point of view. a challenger player wrecks people in bgs and calls them bads but he himself is a bad to glads. youre always a bad to someone.

 

guard funnels the win conditions in 4s. to win you HAVE TO cc the tank AND the healer and peel the target dps defensives on several. this "one and only" win condition leads to lack of creativity play, scripted swaps and overall lowering of the skill floor for everyone.

 

back in the day, wow arena was good because everyone could die at any point on the match depending on positioning and cd usage. this made the game engaging and opened up creative plays and innovative ways to win.

 

wow pvp has become scripted for various reasons and thus is **** now. swtor pvp is scripted because guard makes it scripted.

 

swtor without guard = great game. swtor with guard = quirky modern wow.

 

when you get into an arena, providing both teams have healers, you #1 win condition is to have guard, your #2 win condition is how good is your dps sin at offguarding (zurules im looking at you).

 

theres ways to adress guards and tanks in pvp, p much anything is better than guard.

 

they can remove guard and lock taunts to tank disciplines. tanks would still be super relevant (taunt is strong as fck) and the game would play harder, faster, less scripted and with more creativity flowing. healer skill floor would go high and thats a good thing. healers are very strong in this patch and most dps classes (sry ptech you sck) have adequade defensive cds.

 

they can make guard a flat damage reduction. would still be very strong and fair game. would speed up the game and punish fck ups. fck ups must be punished.

 

bad healers are caried by guard. good healers are "elevated" to gods because of guard, but truly great and amazing healers are diminished bc we have to play into this "box" mechanic.

 

unleash the game biowar.

 

we can make this change.

 

no more script. pls.

 

You make some very compelling points, certainly food for thought. My only thought though is the idea of making a tank's only value taunts [were guard removed] would be far too limiting and really take part of a tank's identity away. I don't think it would be fair to tanks to at this juncture remove one of it's iconic and intrinsic abilties. - It's a little confusing to respond as it seems in some areas you advocate removing guard entirely, while in others modifying it's nature. My response is addressing the removal of guards.

 

I think the bigger issue with gaurds in PVP is that they are simply too plentiful and afford a team the option of guarding a great many of it's players. I think that if they removed guards from DPS specs, that would go along way to elevating some of it's far reaching effects and would really bring some very real importance to pure tank players [were guard's effectiveness linked to tank stats [assuming they too were made useful in PVP]. It would give far greater incentive to play true tanks [non-skanks]. At the same time, even a skank tank is a tank spec and I don't think they should not be able to guard, they should, but perhaps it would not be as potent in their hands as in a true tank were guards linked to tank stats in terms of effectiveness.

 

Removing guards from tanks, leaving them with only taunt to ply their trade [role] would be cutting ranged DPS attack range by half. Taunts are quite effective, but as a stand alone ability for tanks, that seems really iffy.

Without guards it would really be only about AOE taunts as taunting only one potential attacker of a healer [in PVP] would still leave the others to hit a healer full force. Were guards limited to only tank specs that would make the guards available far more precious and really be about healers and we wouldn't be seeing so many instances with mercs and snipers being guarded, which given their heals and DCDs is ridiculous. The limiting of so many guards would have it's own effect and improve things overall nonetheless.

 

There is also the issue of guards being used in Raiding, you remove that you make a problem of DPS specs putting out high damage and ripping aggro from the tanks far more frequent and dangerous for the DPSer and the lose of control tanks would than be faced with would be damning in the more difficult levels of Operations.

 

You can't expect tanks to be okay with losing one of it's most important abilities and than still place the same level of responsibility on them to keep Bosses looking and aiming at them and keep healers from not getting mauled in PVP.

 

If I misunderstood you, my apologies.

[Rafiknoll]

Removing guard, even if only removing the redirection effect, will make tanks nothing better than slow motioned DPS. They will deal damage slower, they will take damage slower, the end. This makes them quite useless unless they intend to play the node guards in any possible nodes game, the ball carrier in huttballs (because their ability to support a DPS carrier is gone), and basically nothing in Odessen or arenas.

 

Tanks need to play the tank's role. In PVE it is about being more defensive in order to divert all enemy damage to themselves. They do so by forcing the enemies to attack them and maintaining aggro. In PVP, we can't force players who to target, so we settle for letting tanks to compel them not to target certain people with guard.

That is the short version. Read through the thread you will probably find longer, but I simply have no time right now for long posts.

 

Also, all of Kendra's post is a great answer.

[Stellarcrusade]

I'm so tired of listing to these bad "and refuse to learn how to play" people asking to nerf any class that isn't just a dumb DPS class that I'm willing finally to let them nerf guard. But to make it fair all DPS classes will no longer be able to do damage too. Basically healers will run around and kill everyone. Hope you are happy.

[Laforet]

Kendrap, is it horrible to live in a world where the roles in pvp are as follows:

 

- skank tanks role is to provide great cc and utility (all tank specs have this right?), taunts (great) and good sustained damage that isnt capped by burst rotations or energy.

 

- pure dps role is control and burst damage, assisting the bruisers. also healing debuffs would become pivot with guard gone. guard greatly diminishes the effectiveness of a well timed healing debuff attack that dps classes can do.

 

- healers heal everyone and actually WORK on NOT TAKING DAMAGE instead of guardsoaking.

 

so we would have three very interesting pvp archetypes:

 

- skank bruisers soak damage, help the team and do decent sustain.

- dps go crazy with bursty dpecs

- healers actually play the damn game having to move and think.

 

this isnt impossible to do on this game, buddy. tanks deserve a competitive role in pvp, but more as bruisers than guardbots.

 

this world i describe, even exacerbating balance issues is better than guard.

 

when i argue about wrecking guard im not talking about killing tanks in pvp, im talking about giving bruiser (tanks) in pvp a REAL ROLE, to make real plays and assist the dps with ccs and lead on sustained damage.

 

think of guard as a crutch that keeps tanking alive in pvp but at the same time boxes you guys in.

 

free the tanks, fck guard.

 

and yes my dude, if biowar locks taunts in arenas and only let tank disciplines (not tank classes in dps disciplines) use it there would be whole lot of people that would play tank only for the uniqueness of taunt. esp with skank damage which im am 110% in favour of.

 

love skank hate guard.

 

ez skankin.

Edited January 11, 2018 by Laforet

[Rafiknoll]

- skank tanks role is to provide great cc and utility (all tank specs have this right?), taunts (great) and good sustained damage that isnt capped by burst rotations or energy.

 

Horrible because of 1 thing: You presume the only viable way to play tanks is skank. Basically in your vision, tanks in PVP and tanks in PVE should be opposite roles, while the tanks in PVE are real tanks and the tanks in PVP a superior version of DPS.

 

- pure dps role is control and burst damage, assisting the bruisers. also healing debuffs would become pivot with guard gone. guard greatly diminishes the effectiveness of a well timed healing debuff attack that dps classes can do.

To be honest currently it is mostly healing debuffs belonging to all tanks and a few select DPS. You wanna turn this upside down too? And I also assume you plan to remove the defensiveness of the skanks? Because who would be stupid enough to pick the squishy bursters if there are the defensive sustained-damaging better-stunning tanks??

CC + sustained > burst, when fighting versus healers.

Defensives + sustained > burst, when not fighting versus healers.

DPS become totally obsolete in PVP unless you just GOTTA see big numbers...

 

- healers heal everyone and actually WORK on NOT TAKING DAMAGE instead of guardsoaking.

This game doesn't let you avoid direct attacks. If targeted, the only possible way the attack will not hit is a DCD or a lucky defensive /roll with very low chances. Or do you want the healers to stack the def rating (oh wait, it is useless versus yellow damage and while stunned), so maybe just give them the shield rating and let them tank? The only other possible way to focus on "not taking damage" is being useless and therefore ignored, or kiting around, therefore being useless. At any rate, the healer has to be useless (in the team context, he may as well run around self-healing the whole match, but he has no way to benefit his group efficiently) to survive, bad idea, no thanks...

 

 

so we would have three very interesting pvp archetypes:

No, we have 2 kinds of DPS, and 1 useless healer: as follows:

 

- skank bruisers soak damage, help the team and do decent sustain.

Not even a consideration of real tanks anymore. Are team-wide damage reduction and diversion really such a bad concept? The PVP here is based on the PVE here but versus players. You are suggesting absolutely new specs. If skanks can soak and deal damage, nothing is left for the DPS to do.

- dps go crazy with bursty dpecs

I suppose all DoT specs and less bursty specs get either removed from the game or buffed beyond reason or changed beyond recognition? You realize DoT is a playstyle of dealing damage without the same high bursts, and it should be viable for both PVE and PVP? Anyway, even the burst specs will be far less good than the skanks you propose because they don't have as many stuns and as much surivability. You would make the 3 tank specs better than all 10 DPS specs (2 per adv class + 2 for the mara and sniper who have 3). Think how much inflation of FOTM it will cause then. At least now some people rather use FOTM dps and some use FOTM tanks and some use FOTM healers...

- healers actually play the damn game having to move and think.

If by "move" you mean endless kiting until the incoming unstoppable cc+focused burst (because outside mitigation is gone), and by "think" you mean "choose between healing the group and dying faster and being a selfish useless space-consumer in my group and survive longer" well yeah. What WILL eventually happen is healers will only queue in premades of 3-4 healers to have a chance to both survive and contribute to the group, or be completey stomped and useless.

 

this isnt impossible to do on this game, buddy. tanks deserve a competitive role in pvp, but more as bruisers than guardbots.

DPS have variety within. They have bursts and dots, they have melee and ranged, and also among the categories themselves it isn't black and white. Some DoTs are slow long lasting while others are 6s which can be looked at as some kind of half-burst or even full-burst. You would remove tanking from PVP because you don't accept the concept of more roles than DPS and healers in there (and you also rather healing be far squishier, resulting eventually in most matches ending with 15 deaths for everyone), and by turning tanks to a superior form of DPS, no thank you...

 

this world i describe, even exacerbating balance issues is better than guard.

How comes I can face enemies with guard with no problem and have fun when I PVP? How comes many people can? There really isn't much to respond to this beside "learn to handle guard". If you were a beta tester you had plenty of time to do that. It never changed, so any tactic developed againts it that worked still works (unless invloving specific changed abilities). Fact is I can handle guard, many others can handle guard, and we all wrote it multiple times already on this very thread. Of course every counter can be countered, including the counters to the counters, but this is were the brains are getting in the equation. Remove guard, someone will calcuate which spec has the best ratio of damage dealt/recieved + the best stuns when summing up all CD factors (I highly suspect it will be a "bruiser") and it will be better any every possible way than any other. Groups composed entirely of this FOTM will easily smash through any other group composition (assuming approximate same skill level), unlike today that even a group of mercs consisting of 3 healers and 5 DPS will have a hard time beating a group with 2 healers and a tank.

 

when i argue about wrecking guard im not talking about killing tanks in pvp, im talking about giving bruiser (tanks) in pvp a REAL ROLE, to make real plays and assist the dps with ccs and lead on sustained damage.

 

If you don't call mitigating damage and saving people by taking fire for them a role, you clearly never played group PVE harder than "tactical". Current tanking is a role which is different from healing and from DPS as much as DPS is different from healing. YOUR suggested role is a "legitimized merc" - a defensively OP DPS with more stuns with the small penalty on burst (as if madness sorcs, non-eng snipers, io mercs, pyrotechs and lethality ops are so mighty bursters). This role exists, it is called FOTM DPS, and has too many. We need their numbers reduced, not increased by 3!

 

think of guard as a crutch that keeps tanking alive in pvp but at the same time boxes you guys in.

free the tanks, fck guard.

Why would anyone see guard like that? Just why? The only possible reason is the inability to handle it right. If you mained a healer you would say the same about CC and burst damage...

 

and yes my dude, if biowar locks taunts in arenas and only let tank disciplines (not tank classes in dps disciplines) use it there would be whole lot of people that would play tank only for the uniqueness of taunt. esp with skank damage which im am 110% in favour of.

 

110% in favor of skanking... omg. I suppose you never understood how to USE guard, beside not knowing how to HANDLE it being used versus you. Skanking is the result of BioWare's errors not giving tanky stats enough magnitude in PVP. Kendra understands this even if she currently uses skank for this reason. We would both love to see tank stats gaining more importance in PVP and see skanks gone.

Not to mention you are now suggesting 3 separate tanking roles: PVE, arenas, non-arena PVP.

Why should DPS and healers be able to play almost the same way with a few twists (PVE - focus rotation, count on others doing their job, time DCDs for rare mechanics that hit even you // PVP - respond to variables, but still try to maintain rotation as best as possible) but tanks have to play totally different games?

Tanks already mostly have more unique jobs in harder PVE content, which requires more than rotation. But you are suggesting:

PVE - Do boss tactics, maintain aggro, avoid all avoidable damage, time DCDs right (for many more mechanics than the DPS or healers take).

Arenas - deal damage, CC, throw taunts on CD brainlessly (yes, taunts are far more brainless than guard, mass taunt - use when close to them all, taunt - use on a DPS who focuses someone else, guard - respond quickly and switch the guard to whoever currently needs it more, which changes frequently).

Non-arena PVP - deal damage and carry the game because you are the only class that is worth anything. You are a DPS++. No relation to PVE tanking whatsoever...

 

love skank hate guard.

Skank is a miscalculation, guard was the intention. Even if skanks guarding was OP, the solution is to make skanks not worth using (by buffing tank stats in PVP), not removing the intended mechancis which justifies tanks being a 3rd seperate role.

 

ez skankin.

 

I gather you enjoy the ez brainless game style, the bruisers are as brainless as a role can get. Some of us rather roles have a meaning and need sync to work better. You need each role to miss something without the others to make them all useful (Bruisers "missing" burst doesn't count because many DPS can do without it), and to each supply it's different unique useful thing. Healers supply healing, DPS supply damage. With a fair role distribution DPS > healing in the long run so tanks supply the taunts and guards to be able to tip the balance (if done right with brain) and give the healers a chance.

If we don't want PVP to become the mindless contest: which group can out-DPS the other group's healers first, if we want to give brain a chance to be a factor rather than say outright "burst > dots" (because that would be the result in your world), we need to insert the TANK factor, which involves the taunt and guard. In case it wasn't common knowledge "dots, tanks, burst" make a good rock-paper-scissors because tanks take dots almost just as hard as DPS take them. Guard is the only way for the PVP of this game to not be reduced to "choose FOTM, pick a target, burst and hope the collective damage of your group is higher, the end", which would mean bots can be programmed to win this kind of PVP.

Rather PVP maintains some kind of IQ requirements, even if it means some humans exist who are at a hardware disadvantage

 

P.S: Grim's idea of guard being removed from DPS was never an issue with me (even if I don't find it necessary as a smart group which just destroy this unguardable guarding DPS up to 33% faster than it would take to burst down a normal DPS due to him taking 150% AoE damage). As for the concern about guard being used in PVE, they can always just remove the 50% redirection for the DPS and let them use the guard for threat reduction in case they need to (I encountered some cases in which it is useful for DPS to guard in PVE).

I PVP with deception, guard with it is like a very short-lasting friendly ability which comes at the greatest cost - my own HP. I use it very rarely, to make sure a sniper survives long enough to use a red power in Odessen, or to give a 5% sorc more chance to self-heal after his barrier. Even used it once to save a guardian who barely soloed a concealment operative to survive the DoTs (he had 70 HP when the DoT ended ) I might use it for 7s in a row, but never more. Too much damage. I don't understand why do so many claim guard is OP when used by DPS, but unlike the irrationality of those who think guard is a bad mechanic in general, I can relate and will not mourn or feel its loss so much with my DPS. [Those who refer to skanks as DPS and complain about their guard, then just like Kendra says, the skanks are the problem. Make tanks worth using, skanks will not be used, guard will be tank exclusive. Problem of the rational men solved]

Edited January 11, 2018 by Rafiknoll

[Laforet]

if you really think that skank tanks are a "superior dps" just because they can soak more dmg via endurance stack and do some sustain then i think that the black hole we have been sucked into is great indeed.

 

pce out.

[Blikki]

why not Make Guard A global cooldown for 5-10 second durration, so it can be used situational, current state if you enter a warzone with x amount healers and Guard, its hard to do anything, even capping a off node if the team know objective. Edited January 11, 2018 by Blikki

[Blikki]

..... Edited January 11, 2018 by Blikki

[Rafiknoll]

if you really think that skank tanks are a "superior dps" just because they can soak more dmg via endurance stack and do some sustain then i think that the black hole we have been sucked into is great indeed.

 

I was talking about your proposed world, not the current one.

 

Just for an exampple: I play with TANK enhancements and usually am above at least half the DPS in the match, regardless of what map that is. I die far less than others, usually 0-1 times per match, with or without a healer, and can I solo most DPS who come my way, including, but not limited to arsenal mercs, deception sins, skank and venj juggs, ap pts, both sorcs, and all maras (this list is based on videos I skimmed). The ap pt was particularly funny because he had the help of 2 lightning sorcs and got soloed by me before their combined damage could kill me (resulting in my one and only death for this warzone). So admittedly in such fights I usually run through the medpack present nearby by the map (and it is I who grab it for my superior stuns) and if really needed I stealth out and heal myself (by my enemies do the same in the meantime, unless they are dumb). So yes, even with the way the game currently is, I think the ability to "soak more dmg via endurance stack (and better, shorter DCDs) and do some sustain (70% of what bursts can do, not that bad)" + my better stuns (spike ftw) makes me sometimes superior to DPS even when it comes to solo-capping and solo-guarding, or when it comes to large fights over turrets were my AoE is built in my rotation so all I gotta do is focus 1 target who stands near his friends, switch just 1 weak attack with the AoE twin of it (thrash with lacerate), prioritize my 1 offensive CD on AoE instead of my bursty singles (I can shock in PVP for up to 17k, yes, this is with 60% shield and 50% abs. Full 248s, no broken bolster), and I deal AoE damage that can only be rivaled by the end-sniper and the venj-jugg (and the rest of my fellow tanks or less-fellow skanks). Let's not even talk about the superiority to anything but operatives when I carry the huttball. Defensive AND up to 5s immunity to firepulls (+ stealth + can do my own firepulls).

I would consider myself OP or FOTM, but since I don't see many tanks overperforming, or many tanks, for instance, I would risk saying I am just a good player, at least when playing objectives in regs with randoms versus randoms. Do you really want to imagine how would tanks look if their ROLE was focused on just being defensive and dealing damage, without any aspect of defending friendlies? I would have to get a buff for either my defenses or my damage (or else I just lost guard, which is, in other words, a pure "role nerf" which is uncalled far), making me and equal or better-skilled tanks even more overperforming in solo kills, solo caps, solo guarding versus 5, AoE brawls and ball carrying.

Everything, besides guard, that people hate about skanks will become worse, and the ratio or skank-players / tank-players and skank-players / DPS-players will grow even bigger. Believe me, we do NOT want the tanking role in PVP to get MORE similar to that of the DPS. We want it to get further away!

Edited January 11, 2018 by Rafiknoll

[Rafiknoll]

why not Make Guard A global cooldown for 5-10 second durration, so it can be used situational, current state if you enter a warzone with x amount healers and Guard, its hard to do anything, even capping a off node if the team know objective.

 

I think the current global CD (1.5s) is enough. Any more would result in arenas favoring the burst builds too much over the pressure builds, because it will be about switching target right afterguard was moved, stun the tank 1-2 secs before his CD is off and you have a total of 9-14 secs of burst on an unguarded target. Dps of 1 man can be around 9k without mitigation, 2 DPS would deal 18k DPS, so it would around 8 secs to kill from full HP. The situation is usually not full HP, and only 1 stun is required for the tank if we need an extension to the duration (and also don't forget that guard placed on a target with 10% is not a guaranteed save as long as the DPS keep the focus or have a stun for the healer)

 

The true solution for too many healers is matchmaking and forbidding premades of consisting of more than 2 healers (PVE groupfinder won't let you queue with invalid role numbers). It is not the small change to guard that will help you kill a trio of healers who heal each other, it is making more than 3 healers in a match an impossibility, forcing the trio to not stand united (if your team is not too dumb to focus all power in one area, but there will never be a solution for THAT ). I agree, matches of unkillable enemies suck, but it is not the guard making it so. Guard might be 5% responsible, the rest 95% is the inflation of healings and the lack of target focus to counter them. Also, if there truly are enough healers to create infinite combat, there shouldn't be enough DPS to get all of your people dead (as long as you have a healer yourself, else you are screwed, of course, but see matchmaking for that ), so in order not to get to the situation of them holding and you unable to retake it, don't let them grab the hold. Make sure no nodes are ignored at the beginning of the game and prevent their caps as much as they prevent yours. Stalemate? maybe. Losing? nope. The game then can become a tactical fight until some side makes a mistake and sends too many/few to some side, granting you a node and starting the clock. Of course, it is not over yet, because your group isn't immune to mistakes.

 

Will finish with 2 examples:

Had a Novare where they had the healers and neither side grabbed mid (therefore score didn't tick) for 5 mins until me and another managed to take west. The match ended just the same situation: neutral mid and w+e ours.

Also had an ACW where we had the healers. all 3 areas were a mess with no turret being taken for 50 secs, then we capped grass half a sec after they grabbed snow. They won 10-0 (If it was a Yavin it would be 2-0, this is how close the caps were) because this is how things stated for the whole warzone.

In both games, the objectives may have been quite static, but I think all 16 people visited each at some point in the warzone. Stalemates can be dynamic and interesting, if you use chat mid-combat and say "this is getting nowhere, stealther come with me to grass", or anything like that, and then they gotta change the way they spread out to respond, and those who do this better will win.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

when i argue about wrecking guard im not talking about killing tanks in pvp, im talking about giving bruiser (tanks) in pvp a REAL ROLE, to make real plays and assist the dps with ccs and lead on sustained damage.

 

So tanks should be brusiers and have the best sustained damage in the game, better even than DPS specs.

Yeah, cause that makes sense. Not only do you want to rip tanks apart, now you want to lower the value of the DPS specs.Tanks Role, is not to DPS. That's what DPS are for. Tank specs DPS should be notably inferior to DPS specs. I get the feeling your not a big fan of the entire Trinity concept in MMOs heh

 

As a life long RPGer [table top included] I know there are some players who really don't like "Class" based character creation as it doesn't reflect a person's ability to delve into different, even disparate modes of operation or application. They want to be able to fine tailor their characters to different elements together and use them in conjunction with one another. [Why should all Fighters be virtually the same, how come as a healer I can't perhaps spend sometime to focus on fighting skills in addition to healing, etc.] Its understandable that people don't want to be 'cornholed' into 'carboard cut outs' of a basic concept or style. Too many possibilties exist than though that can't really be adequately considered in the overall to maintain a semblance of balance. My brother IRL, who is also a gamer is like that, he hates classes, he wants to be able to pick and choose, so I think perhaps I kinda understand where you are coming from.

 

I don't know how long you have played this game so you may already know this. Prior to 3.0 there were "Trees" which were somewhat equivlent to the "specs" that we have now. And just like now, at certain levels you gain certain new abilities and such as dictated by the spec itself. The thing about the "Tree" system was you spend points to buy your way up through the "tree" [kinda like present utilities]. The thing was, you were able to pick and choose which tree you wanted to raise up in and along it's path and you could conceivably invest in all three trees at the same time as you gained levels. I have to say it was pretty cool and a lot of players were sorry to see it go because it allowed for great flexibility and personal conceptualization. The problem was that it also created instance of unforeseen hybridization some of which were much strong than others. They did away with this system because they said it made balancing between classes virtually impossible and they couldn't forsee all the possibly combinations people might come up with. In essense, they didn't want hybrids anymore because hybrids were causing higher performances than were intended with the level of difficulty of various content. - Skank Tanks hybrids are the last holdouts from that sort of thinking and playstyle.

 

The removal of guards without a shyt ton of play testing would lead to all sorts of unforeseen issues and problems and would require more time and resources than the game's developers presently would be willing to commit. - Whether or not your ideas about guards would be effective for the results you are envisioning is debatable, but I think you would agree that something as wide spread in effect as that shouldn't even be considered if there was not going to be a sufficient amount and wide range of testing first.

 

For what it's worth, you're clearly a highly intelligent individual and I do think your proposals are well intended, if impractical.

Edited January 12, 2018 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[Glocko]

Would take you a bit more seriously if I hadn't searched Nerf and your name... so far you have proposed nerfing Assasin, Merc, Op, and Sniper, anything with stealth anything with heals and anything that can tank... ffs.....

 

Process of elimination this would make you amarauder... ffs get serious

Edited January 12, 2018 by Glocko

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Would take you a bit more seriously if I hadn't searched Nerf and your name... so far you have proposed nerfing Assasin, Merc, Op, and Sniper, anything with stealth anything with heals and anything that can tank... ffs.....

 

Process of elimination this would make you amarauder... ffs get serious

 

You should let it be known whom you are speaking to. While I am a Marauder, you didn't find anything from me calling for Nerfs For Assassins or Operatives [which covers stealth] from me.

 

Sniper and Mercs? Guilty as charged. Skank Tanks, while yeah I think they aren't exactly kosher, I have stated repeatedly that I understand why people skank tank and I don't think they are doing anything wrong and also that I don't put them in the same cateogory as Snipers and Mercs. They're role breaking, not OP. My only point of contention with them is they do too much DPS for a tank spec. You will also find me stating that I think it's terrible that tank specs can't play true tanks because tank stats don't translate, which is the very reason why I understand why people skank tank.

 

Every single class besides Marauders has heals, you haven't seen me call for nerfs on anything but Mercs and Snipers.

 

If you really checked than you would now that I've stated on numerous occassions think it's wrong that Assassins had their defensives hit in 5.6, that sorcs had their self healing nerfed and in both cases they should be redressed. You'd also find I called for buffs for PTs and Juggs [PTs need an extra DCD and Juggs need a anti-focus ability.

 

I'm calling you bluff, link posts from me that support your claims. This is a ranged meta, I support all melee and sorcs.

 

If your post was not directed at me......

 

opps.

[KendraP]

I repeat, I feel that making guard an ability with a CD or certainly getting rid of it all together would merely eliminate tanking from PvP. There comes a point when the best way to deal with something is to kill it. Keeping your team from getting killed is the tanks job.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

I repeat, I feel that making guard an ability with a CD or certainly getting rid of it all together would merely eliminate tanking from PvP. There comes a point when the best way to deal with something is to kill it. Keeping your team from getting killed is the tanks job.

 

I am Grim, and I support this message ^. =p

 

Tanks need their tank abilities reaffirmed in PVP, not lessoned. Like the tank stats thing wasn't bad enough heh

Edited January 12, 2018 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[Aeneas_Falco]

Guard is stupidly overpowered and needs either a serious nerf, or an adjustment on how it functions. While it is counterable in arenas *it is not* in the average Reg warzone, where there are only very short windows to capture nodes before the respawns make it back. The TTK is far too long when there are are tanks & healers in a match, unless they're just flat out bad, and it usually means that a single healer and tank pair can lock down a node and prevent it from being captured indefinitely. If the defending team is reasonably competent you're not going to kill both and the accompanying DPS in a tight enough window to capture the node their own. Any kills will be staggered because of the long TTK. That is particularly the case when the average pug runs into tank-healer pairs, since the average pug team doesn't have the coordination to time CC or swaps or even just the skill to not to break mez.

 

My Rep side main is a healer and I have not lost a single match where I was queued on that toon with a pocket tank, unless there was a similar premade on the other team. Not one! I understand that is partly luck in not getting a match where half the team was just there for the UCs, but if we're going to be honest about guard it is also because healer-tank pairs are so hard to counter in regs, and to a nearly game-breaking extent. It's why it is such a popular premade composition. Everyone knows that in most cases it is preordained win unless the other team has one of their own.

 

I'm sure some will disagree strongly with what I just wrote, particularly those who main skank tanks or those who benefit most from guard (usually healers), because most players don't like parting with their advantages. Before you reply however, ask yourself this...how often, while in a healer-tank pair, have you died more than once or twice in a Reg warzone? If you're honest you could probably count the occasions on one hand if there were any at all. Let's face it. Guard is OP.

 

IMO it should either be lowered to a 30% damage reduction or keep it at 50%, but give guard a damage threshold in PVP that when exceeded causes it to break.. Give it something similar to resource management, where after a certain amount of damage being dished out to a guarded target during a short enough timespan, the guard will "break," and can't be reapplied to the same target for 30 seconds. (while allowing it to be applied to another) Of course the threshold should be high enough that it takes more than one DPS on a guarded target to break it, possibly even three. The 30 second debuff should also apply to guard being removed/swapped to prevent exploiting around the damage threshold.

 

Tl;dr: Guard is more overpowered than Merc or Sniper defenses and has a much larger effect on warzone outcomes.

Edited January 27, 2018 by Aeneas_Falco

[KendraP]

Guard is stupidly overpowered and needs either a serious nerf, or an adjustment on how it functions. While it is counterable in arenas *it is not* in the average Reg warzone, where there are only very short windows to capture nodes before the respawns make it back. The TTK is far too long when there are are tanks & healers in a match, unless they're just flat out bad, and it usually means that a single healer and tank pair can lock down a node and prevent it from being captured indefinitely. If the defending team is reasonably competent you're not going to kill both and the accompanying DPS in a tight enough window to capture the node their own. Any kills will be staggered because of the long TTK. That is particularly the case when the average pug runs into tank-healer pairs, since the average pug team doesn't have the coordination to time CC or swaps or even just the skill to not to break mez.

 

Guard is currently what makes tanking do anything in PvP. Yes, a dps can technically guard. I wish they couldn't as (as an actual tank spec) it merely gets in my way having to constantly yell at them to pull the guard, but I would like to point out they do it badly. Dps can taunt just as effectively in PvP.

 

Fundamentally a tank should make all the difference between a team that has one and a team that doesn't. Sorry, but that's how the trinity works. The team that has a healer will win; the team that has the tank should win. It's that simple. And by the way, 2 good dps can substantially pressure a healer through guard, maybe even kill an average healer through guard.

 

Given the quality of the average pug teams I've been on, they don't have the ability to call when they guard a node and someone shows up. That's not good grounds for any kind of serious debate.

 

 

My Rep side main is a healer and I have not lost a single match where I was queued on that toon with a pocket tank, unless there was a similar premade on the other team. Not one! I understand that is partly luck in not getting a match where half the team was just there for the UCs, but if we're going to be honest about guard it is also because healer-tank pairs are so hard to counter in regs, and to a nearly game-breaking extent. It's why it is such a popular premade composition. Everyone knows that in most cases it is preordained win unless the other team has one of their own.

 

Uh obviously a premade is going to have advantage over pugs. That's kind of a no brainer. A healer tank combo is a popular premade combination because it is part of the trinity and yes is effective. Also, we assume most people want to run dps and thus queue as tank and healer to fill that role.

 

Again, a team with a tank SHOULD beat a team without one; otherwise, what would be the point to tanking. I've heard no one on this forum counter this argument well. The team with a healer WILL win as well, assuming the other team doesn't have one. Ergo, the team with the tank should have the advantage as well. Again, that's the entire purpose of the trinity.

 

I'm sure some will disagree strongly with what I just wrote, particularly those who main skank tanks or those who benefit most from guard (usually healers), because most players don't like parting with their advantages. Before you reply however, ask yourself this...how often, while in a healer-tank pair, have you died more than once or twice in a Reg warzone? If you're honest you could probably count the occasions on one hand if there were any at all. Let's face it. Guard is OP.

 

Well you're right. I'm a tank main who disagrees with you very strongly. By the way, as a skank just tonight I had 3 matches where I died 3 times. Granted it wasn't with my normal healing buddy, it was a different guy.

 

IMO it should either be lowered to a 30% damage reduction or keep it at 50%, but give guard a damage threshold in PVP that when exceeded causes it to break.. Give it something similar to resource management, where after a certain amount of damage being dished out to a guarded target during a short enough timespan, the guard will "break," and can't be reapplied to the same target for 30 seconds. (while allowing it to be applied to another) Of course the threshold should be high enough that it takes more than one DPS on a guarded target to break it, possibly even three. The 30 second debuff should also apply to guard being removed/swapped to prevent exploiting around the damage threshold.

 

I feel all this would do is make tanking obsolete. If it becomes a better way to simply kill things rather than try to stall them, why would someone remain a tank of any form? I would prefer skanking to be addressed by making actual tank gear useful. This would have the effect of eliminating the wannabee dps and providing people like me who are tank mains (I have explained my personal history all over the place, I don't think I need to do it again) a reason to cut our dps in favor of survivability.

 

Furthermore, the point of tanking has been dramatically reduced enough. There is literally no reason to run a tank below level 50 any more. Levelling FP are all tacrical. In fact the ideal comp is 3 dps + 1 heal (and the healer is only there for certain large/difficult trash mobs thanks to kolto). PvP is one of the few areas where a good tank can truly shine. I enjoy having a purpose. Why is that bad, exactly?

 

Tl;dr: Guard is more overpowered than Merc or Sniper defenses and has a much larger effect on warzone outcomes.

 

You're serious? Give a merc a guard and a taunt and he'd be the most effective tank in PvP. Sniper defensives are more about staying away than face tanking, but a good sniper is much more annoying and effective than a merc.

 

Since there are generally multiple dps in a WZ and probably one tank (much to my buddy's chagrin I refuse to run 2 tanks of any form in our group. If someone else wants to try it, I go dps) it should make more of a difference.

 

As a tank my job is to keep my team alive and to be a major annoyance factor to the enemy. So again, I take the continued existence of this thread as a personal compliment. Obviously if my role is this hated, I'm doing something right.

Edited January 27, 2018 by KendraP

[Glocko]

99% sure he mains a Merc..... with his secondary being an Operative

 

Reduce damage reduction to 48 percent but give them an AOE heal, a cleansing ability and increase all of there AOE damage by 50 percent,and all attacks should cause trauma including all AOE attacks. If they reduce it to 46% give them battle Rez with a 10 second cool down. They should also put Walkers in every zone that only tanks can operate. A 10 minute reflect probably wouldn’t be a bad idea either.

 

Power tech should be excluded because they are way over powered and I main a power tech

Edited January 27, 2018 by Glocko

[Foambreaker]

Not that it matters since we apparently don'/won't have developers anymore but the original purpose of this thread was to address Guard in DPS builds, not TANK builds.