Nerf Guard!

[KendraP]

Oh jeez, that's right, you can interrupt Guard, I'm so bad.

 

It has nothing to do with interrupting guard, but interrupting the healer.

[Schoock]

Oh jeez, that's right, you can interrupt Guard, I'm so bad.

 

He meant interrupting the healer, obviously.

[Foambreaker]

It has nothing to do with interrupting guard, but interrupting the healer.

 

So guard is not op because you can interrupt the healer.

 

Got it

[Schoock]

So guard is not op because you can interrupt the healer.

 

Got it

 

Yes.

 

[KendraP]

We're still whining here?

 

If your complaint is tank survival, sorry that's the point.

If your complaint is dps with guard, I'd love it gone too. Guess why? Because they're squishy and die so they can't use it effectively and keep me from being able to guard them or their target.

 

Seriously if you can't kill a pt dps guarding someone, you need to analyze your dps abilities.

[Rafiknoll]

So guard is not op because you can interrupt the healer.

 

Got it

 

Even better, guard is not OP because it requires a healer so badly, that people discuss the healer as a given when complaining or when arguing about it.

 

In that case:

Lightning Sorc is OP (when he has a healer).

AP PT is OP (when he has a healer).

Vigi jugg is OP (when he has a healer).

Tanks are OP (when they have a healer).

Skanks are OP (when they have a healer).

Nodes are too easily defended (when there are healers).

People, in general, are too hard to kill (when there are healers).

Stun + burst is almost the only way to kill someone these days (if he has a healer).

 

Of course, the healer ratio should go up or down depending on how many DPS focus on the "OP" above. But guard is no different.

2 healers and a tank can survive longer than 3 DPS when versus 5 DPS, but they will die sooner or later if at least 3 of the 5 have a brain. I never met a guy who would consider 3 healers running together not OP and almost unkillable, so of course guard makes it worse, just as much as an AP PT can make it worse, but unlike guard he won't make you furious about smashing healers continuously and failing, no... he will make you furious for dying to a single DPS even though you were 5 and were constantly trying to kill HIM. The difference is - here both sides live, there - you die.

 

So let's take a moment to consider guard WITHOUT healers involved. Guard is a way for the player to take damage instead of his friend. Translation - instead of being able to taunt and force you to direct 100% of your damage at the tank, susceptible to LoS from him, which would mean the tank can effectively disable rdps by taunting and LoSing and disable mdps by taunting from distance, instead of all that, tanks have guard, which present you with a choice: either direct 100% of your efforts on the tank or direct 50% at the DPS and 50% at the tank, without breaking your rotation, gaining a 100% bonus damage on the tank when including him and his guarded in AoEs, and the tank must be close for it to even work (and of course, it goes through LoS and through melee distance). Remember, guard DOES NOT involve a healer by design, the healer happens to be there, and benefits from being more defensive rather than having a friend with more offensive power (in the form of AP PT, for example). In case the healer is no there it is just a way to REDIRECT damage. There is a mere 5% real reduction here, the damage is dealt, the only benefit is a different distribution in favor of the guy with the better defensives. Useful? It should be. OP? nope.

[KendraP]

Even better, guard is not OP because it requires a healer so badly, that people discuss the healer as a given when complaining or when arguing about it.

 

There is a mere 5% real reduction here, the damage is dealt, the only benefit is a different distribution in favor of the guy with the better defensives. Useful? It should be. OP? nope.

 

We've been trying to tell them this since last july man. We've reached an impasse truly.

[SlimeyDoom]

So guard is not op because you can interrupt the healer.

 

Got it

 

Yup. Have you tried healing at a high level against teams that manage their interrupts? It’s very, very difficult

[Damonk]

I read the replies here and I see a common thread. Those who are all for guard the way it is use the argument "its bad players". Those against guard use the argument "its OP". I think you both are right.

Look, I have played PvP matches and I hate them. I do them because it is something different. As a marauder, when a healer is guarded, my dps can not keep up with the heals they can throw out plus the damage mitigation from a Tank's abilities. What do I mean by this?...

Guard: Reduces damage you take by 5% but returns 50% of the damage done to the guarded person. So if the guarded person takes 10k, you take 5k minus 5% of 5k.

Endure Pain: Increases your health by 30%. So my Juggernaut at 70th with crap gear is sitting at 109k roughly of health. An increase of 30% is a total of 141k. Yes it lasts 10 seconds. But it is a big big boost.

Enraged Defense: Heals the tank for roughly 4k with 12 charges. So each hit you take is reduced by 4k for 12 of those hits. Yes you need to be above 70%... but see Endure Pain....

Taunt: Player does 30% less damage unless they attack the tank.

 

These are the abilities I want to look at. So, a Jug tank guards a healer. Healer is taking 50% less damage... but Jug also taunts anyone attacking the healer... those people do 30% less damage. So lets say my marauder does a 15k hit with raging burst. The healer who is guarded and the marauder is taunted... so that 15k hit, before armor mitigation, first is reduced by 30% to 10500. Then it is halved due to guard to 5250... which then half of that is done to the tank.. so 2625. But the tank hit endure pain so has about 30k more health than normal. But that aside... a low level heal takes care of 2600 health loss. Thus, tank takes nothing, healer takes nothing. But hey that can only happen every 15 seconds, and only against 1 attacker.. taunt isn't area of effect right.... but then there is intercede which reduces the damage a target takes by 20%... so its about the same as taunt. Its on a 19s cool down.

 

Yes, there are ways around this. But you have to admit, when you take all the other ways jugs (and my jug which I based all this off of is a dps jug not immortal) have to mitigate damage and heal themselves, guard at 50% does seem like a bit much.

[DavidAtkinson]

Yes, please nerf guard.

 

Nr1. Remove guard from DPS classes. They don't need it, it was foolish from bioware's part to give guard to dps's.

 

Nr2. Decrease guard to 25% for skank tanks. Sorry bro's, I don't care your a skank, but you should not mitigate 50% like a real tank does + do 9k dps on your PT's as tanks.

 

Fixed.

 

Anyway, somebody please delete this utterly stupid thread. Bioware ain't gonna do anything about it anyway, so what's the point of all this talk here ? Never gonna happen.

[KendraP]

I read the replies here and I see a common thread. Those who are all for guard the way it is use the argument "its bad players". Those against guard use the argument "its OP". I think you both are right.

Look, I have played PvP matches and I hate them. I do them because it is something different. As a marauder, when a healer is guarded, my dps can not keep up with the heals they can throw out plus the damage mitigation from a Tank's abilities. What do I mean by this?...

Guard: Reduces damage you take by 5% but returns 50% of the damage done to the guarded person. So if the guarded person takes 10k, you take 5k minus 5% of 5k.

Endure Pain: Increases your health by 30%. So my Juggernaut at 70th with crap gear is sitting at 109k roughly of health. An increase of 30% is a total of 141k. Yes it lasts 10 seconds. But it is a big big boost.

Enraged Defense: Heals the tank for roughly 4k with 12 charges. So each hit you take is reduced by 4k for 12 of those hits. Yes you need to be above 70%... but see Endure Pain....

Taunt: Player does 30% less damage unless they attack the tank.

 

These are the abilities I want to look at. So, a Jug tank guards a healer. Healer is taking 50% less damage... but Jug also taunts anyone attacking the healer... those people do 30% less damage. So lets say my marauder does a 15k hit with raging burst. The healer who is guarded and the marauder is taunted... so that 15k hit, before armor mitigation, first is reduced by 30% to 10500. Then it is halved due to guard to 5250... which then half of that is done to the tank.. so 2625. But the tank hit endure pain so has about 30k more health than normal. But that aside... a low level heal takes care of 2600 health loss. Thus, tank takes nothing, healer takes nothing. But hey that can only happen every 15 seconds, and only against 1 attacker.. taunt isn't area of effect right.... but then there is intercede which reduces the damage a target takes by 20%... so its about the same as taunt. Its on a 19s cool down.

 

Yes, there are ways around this. But you have to admit, when you take all the other ways jugs (and my jug which I based all this off of is a dps jug not immortal) have to mitigate damage and heal themselves, guard at 50% does seem like a bit much.

 

First off: if you have been guarding on your dps jugg and have not been absolutely annhilated, they obviously chose to ignore both you and your guarded target. dps juggs are squishy enough without using guard, especially under the slightest bit of focus. With guard, its a 2 for 1 death.

 

Second: a tank being survivable is the entire point. As rafi mentioned earlier, without a healer this is basically a damage redirect. The fact that healers are inevitably mentioned whenever guard comes up goes to show that it is merely the pvp tanking mechanic. Tanks should be more survivable than dps and there should be interaction/improvements between healers and tanks, otherwise what is the point, exactly?

 

Yes, please nerf guard.

 

Nr1. Remove guard from DPS classes. They don't need it, it was foolish from bioware's part to give guard to dps's.

 

Nr2. Decrease guard to 25% for skank tanks. Sorry bro's, I don't care your a skank, but you should not mitigate 50% like a real tank does + do 9k dps on your PT's as tanks.

 

Fixed.

 

Anyway, somebody please delete this utterly stupid thread. Bioware ain't gonna do anything about it anyway, so what's the point of all this talk here ? Never gonna happen.

 

Point 1. As a tank, i would be overjoyed if they removed guard from dps specs of tank capable classes. But it's not because they can do my job. It's purely because I, as the tank, am far more survivable than the squishy pt, juggie, or sin pretending they can guard. Therefore it's far better if I handle the guarding and guard swapping responsibilities, rather than having a 2 for 1 death. but again, please keep complaining, because it would help me tremendously if they removed guard from dps specs.

 

point 2: ahh the skank thing again. First off, yes I agree that tanks should not do damage to the extent of a damage dealer. As I have said elsewhere, however, the reason for this is the way "dps" is calculated in warzones. its total damage / total time. so obviously it's skewed to benefit whoever lives the longest. I should hope a tank/healer combo lives the longest, somehow, because again, otherwise what would be the point of tanking?

 

A nerf to the level you suggest, in my opinion, would kill pvp tanking. Even I said this is an opinion, but I feel my opinion is a rather good one given my experience in pvp and with tanking in general.

 

To fix skanks the solution is two fold:

First you need to motivate tanks to use tank gear. Even rafi and i disagree on this to some extent, but I have never found tank stats to be remotely useful to my tank in pvp. Therefore, i had my friend make me high endurance dps gear. I play as a tank, not half a dps, and thereby would be overjoyed if they somehow gave me reason to run tank gear and cut damage for survivability or team utility.

 

Second you need to make the wannabee dpsers go back to dpsing. This requires dps specs of tank capable classes to be as good as the other dps specs (much like the population of sorc healers would be improved if sorc dps was remotely viable). This requires nerfing merc, sniper, and mara or buffing pt, guardian, shadow or finding a middle ground somewhere. I personally feel the last option is the best. There is an obvious middle ground between the survivability of a merc and a pt, for instance.

 

Taken together these 2 would reduce the population of skanks, and address the problem of the damage board at the end of matches.

[DavidAtkinson]

First off: if you have been guarding on your dps jugg and have not been absolutely annhilated, they obviously chose to ignore both you and your guarded target. dps juggs are squishy enough without using guard, especially under the slightest bit of focus. With guard, its a 2 for 1 death.

 

Second: a tank being survivable is the entire point. As rafi mentioned earlier, without a healer this is basically a damage redirect. The fact that healers are inevitably mentioned whenever guard comes up goes to show that it is merely the pvp tanking mechanic. Tanks should be more survivable than dps and there should be interaction/improvements between healers and tanks, otherwise what is the point, exactly?

 

 

 

Point 1. As a tank, i would be overjoyed if they removed guard from dps specs of tank capable classes. But it's not because they can do my job. It's purely because I, as the tank, am far more survivable than the squishy pt, juggie, or sin pretending they can guard. Therefore it's far better if I handle the guarding and guard swapping responsibilities, rather than having a 2 for 1 death. but again, please keep complaining, because it would help me tremendously if they removed guard from dps specs.

 

point 2: ahh the skank thing again. First off, yes I agree that tanks should not do damage to the extent of a damage dealer. As I have said elsewhere, however, the reason for this is the way "dps" is calculated in warzones. its total damage / total time. so obviously it's skewed to benefit whoever lives the longest. I should hope a tank/healer combo lives the longest, somehow, because again, otherwise what would be the point of tanking?

 

A nerf to the level you suggest, in my opinion, would kill pvp tanking. Even I said this is an opinion, but I feel my opinion is a rather good one given my experience in pvp and with tanking in general.

 

To fix skanks the solution is two fold:

First you need to motivate tanks to use tank gear. Even rafi and i disagree on this to some extent, but I have never found tank stats to be remotely useful to my tank in pvp. Therefore, i had my friend make me high endurance dps gear. I play as a tank, not half a dps, and thereby would be overjoyed if they somehow gave me reason to run tank gear and cut damage for survivability or team utility.

 

Second you need to make the wannabee dpsers go back to dpsing. This requires dps specs of tank capable classes to be as good as the other dps specs (much like the population of sorc healers would be improved if sorc dps was remotely viable). This requires nerfing merc, sniper, and mara or buffing pt, guardian, shadow or finding a middle ground somewhere. I personally feel the last option is the best. There is an obvious middle ground between the survivability of a merc and a pt, for instance.

 

Taken together these 2 would reduce the population of skanks, and address the problem of the damage board at the end of matches.

 

Something needs to be nerfed about skanking. It CANNOT work like a real tank, so nerfing their guard mitigation would be a good compromise.

 

Making real tanks work in ranked arenas ? I still don't think anyone would play them as only 2 ppl would DPS while the other team with a skank would have 3 DPS's technically. Disadvantage.

[KendraP]

Something needs to be nerfed about skanking. It CANNOT work like a real tank, so nerfing their guard mitigation would be a good compromise.

 

Making real tanks work in ranked arenas ? I still don't think anyone would play them as only 2 ppl would DPS while the other team with a skank would have 3 DPS's technically. Disadvantage.

 

As I explained, a skank is not a real dps. It's the way march damage is calculated that makes it appear effective. As a more realistic example from a terrible karraga HM pug that went sour, here are some numbers that include considerations of combat time:

 

Tank gear/tank spec: 4.7k

Dps gear/ tank spec (i.e. my skank set): 6.7k

Dps/dps: I can get as high as 10.5k

This is an almost 4k dps difference between skank and dps. Note all the numbers are high because I reflect on cool down. In an average boss fight I'm in the 2.5-3k range tank/tank and 8k ballpark dps/dps. I don't know my skank number because I rarely run this outside of PvP.

 

Real tanks like me and rafi, who have been the two most ardent supporters of guard on this forum, would go full tank. Heck rafi already does. The second half of this is why I include my point 2. You have to throw the dps wannabees a bone to make them switch back. If the dps spec was as viable as every other dps spec in the survivability department, it has the obvious advantage for killing things. Thus, if tank gear meant something the only skanks left would be the truly crappy ones that can neither tank nor damage properly.

[Rafiknoll]

@Damonk: in short, your problem was that a DPS can't kill a guarded healer or his tank, but he shouldn't be. Heck, a single DPS should not be able to kill a healer in solo if the healer is not out of CDs. If a single DPS could out-damage a healer, then healers would be useless in PVP. How would a healer be able to help his group if all that needs to be done is to send 1 DPS to focus him and he will have to completely focus on himself AND eventually die anyway?

 

Currently, a good healer needs 1.3 good DPS to out-damage and kill him. It is only fair that a single player or even 2 players will have a hard time to kill 2 players who play a tank+healer combination. Working as intended here.

 

As for @DavidAtkinson: like KendraP I agree that skanks in their current form are cancer. As I said before: As long as people who wish to deal damage pick the tank spec instead of the DPS spec, something is broken. The solution, however, is not to make the tank spec worse in tanking, but to make it worse in damaging, or at least make its D/DT ratio equal or less good than the one of the DPS, while being DPS geared.

 

A possible solution could be to cap the critical chance of certain tank abilities to 30-33% (the main AoE for example) which would mean that the greatest source of the tank's numbers in PVP (the AoE) will have less potential. (They can boost the "generates a high amount of threat" to cover for the difference in PVE aggro). Make the rotational abilities of the tank not have their CD or duration affected by alacrity (or cap the effects), and all that is left is power, which still limits the tank to something like 6.5k. Real tanks will feel no difference, as their crit is approximately 25-30% (I am using DPS relics, of course, I am not THAT dumb to use tank relics, and I also spared some augments for crit because I got enough of the shield and absorb. But I use the same gear for PVE tanking, so I do not consider that "skank"), so the above is basically a "skank-only" nerf.

[Foambreaker]

Yes, please nerf guard.

 

Nr1. Remove guard from DPS classes. They don't need it, it was foolish from bioware's part to give guard to dps's.

 

Nr2. Decrease guard to 25% for skank tanks. Sorry bro's, I don't care your a skank, but you should not mitigate 50% like a real tank does + do 9k dps on your PT's as tanks.

 

Fixed.

 

Anyway, somebody please delete this utterly stupid thread. Bioware ain't gonna do anything about it anyway, so what's the point of all this talk here ? Never gonna happen.

 

It'll never end, PvE tanks are obsessed with this thread

[KendraP]

It'll never end, PvE tanks are obsessed with this thread

 

I tank pve one day a week. I tank pvp like 6. The 2 tanks that have been obsessed with this thread are me and rafi.

 

I tend to assume that since rafi posts primarily in the PvP forum, like me he is a PvP tank.

[KendraP]

A possible solution could be to cap the critical chance of certain tank abilities to 30-33% (the main AoE for example) which would mean that the greatest source of the tank's numbers in PVP (the AoE) will have less potential. (They can boost the "generates a high amount of threat" to cover for the difference in PVE aggro). Make the rotational abilities of the tank not have their CD or duration affected by alacrity (or cap the effects), and all that is left is power, which still limits the tank to something like 6.5k. Real tanks will feel no difference, as their crit is approximately 25-30% (I am using DPS relics, of course, I am not THAT dumb to use tank relics, and I also spared some augments for crit because I got enough of the shield and absorb. But I use the same gear for PVE tanking, so I do not consider that "skank"), so the above is basically a "skank-only" nerf.

 

This could work since most of us run little to no crit or alacrity in Pve. I personally would prefer they somehow addressed the underlying issue with tank stats. I know we disagree somewhat on their usefulness in pvp. But there's a reason so many of us run skanks but tank in pve.

 

Also. Of course that's not a skank setup. Most pve tanks run dps relics and high endurance power mods, etc.

Edited February 4, 2018 by KendraP

[Rafiknoll]

It'll never end, PvE tanks are obsessed with this thread

 

"If you don't narrowly only PVP, then you are fully PVE!!"

- "Only a Sith deals in absolute..."

 

I also regularly fly GSF, does it mean I don't play any ground content? Well, actually I also play Assassin's Creed, so I suppose I don't even play SWTOR...

 

I have no idea what could possibly lead you to the conclusion that we don't PVP, but anyway, you are wrong. We play both (I personally raid and soloed my MM KOFTE/KOTET, and do PVP with the same character using the same gear) and therefore see the greater spectrum, better than people who solely PVP can. Calling us "PVE" is a lazy excuse to avoid countering our arguments.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Rafiknoll

[KendraP]

"If you don't narrowly only PVP, then you are fully PVE!!"

- "Only a Sith deals in absolute..."

 

I also regularly fly GSF, does it mean I don't play any ground content? Well, actually I also play Assassin's Creed, so I suppose I don't even play SWTOR...

 

I have no idea what could possibly lead you to the conclusion that we don't PVP, but anyway, you are wrong. We play both (I personally raid and soloed my MM KOFTE/KOTET, and do PVP with the same character using the same gear) and therefore see the greater spectrum, better than people who solely PVP can. Calling us "PVE" is a lazy excuse to avoid countering our arguments.

 

LOL +1 rafi

[Raansu]

No one cares about skanks. Guard in general just needs to be nerfed. Guard + taunt is 80%. Its dumb. Guard needs to be baseline 20% and taunt will temporarily bring it up to 50%. Either that, or its time to put the damn thing on a CD.

[KendraP]

No one cares about skanks. Guard in general just needs to be nerfed. Guard + taunt is 80%. Its dumb. Guard needs to be baseline 20% and taunt will temporarily bring it up to 50%. Either that, or its time to put the damn thing on a CD.

 

Again, I feel this suggestion would bring an end to PvP tanking. There comes a point where rather than creating a stall war it's better to just kill things. I feel people are greatly overestimating the benefits of guard.

 

And quite frankly it should be important to a team as it's the only thing making tanking worth doing in pvp

[Rafiknoll]

No one cares about skanks. Guard in general just needs to be nerfed. Guard + taunt is 80%. Its dumb. Guard needs to be baseline 20% and taunt will temporarily bring it up to 50%. Either that, or its time to put the damn thing on a CD.

 

You say "no one cares" but that doesn't make it true. People care most about it. Tanks rarely exist, DPS who guard are dead meat, the only annoyance of guard is caused by the skanks...

 

Guard doesn't need a nerf. All sorcs can grant damage absorption to anyone every 20s (the CD is on the target player, so they can basically shield 8 people every 20 secs, and no one calls this OP, tanks can instead reduce the damage dealt by 1 certain character by 35% for 6s. So taunt is completely fair. Added to guard the GUARDED GUY gets the 85% DR for 6s, but 50% of it isn't "reduced" it is "redirected" and is dealt to the tank. All tanks can reach 80% (E/K) DR for as long as they are stunned if they pick the utility, and many people choose not to take it, so 80% short duration damage reduction isn't OP or crazy. You are thinking about doing this for a healer. Think about doing this for a poor AP PT. Guard was supposed to be the anti-focus which can be applied to friends for a penalty of increased damage taken if it fails to work. Guard is there to break the stun-focus-burst meta that people complain so much about. When people complain that guard forces them to switch target, they actually complain that a good thing is working as intended.

 

Writing the above led me to another anti-skank idea. Placing guard could reduce damage reduction against players. Skanks don't have tanky stats, so they benefit far less from the shield compared to tanks. The main reasons skanks are still tanky compared to pure DPS is the armor buff from the stance. If this buff is reduced while guarding (only against players, or guard will not be usable in raids) then the skank's damage reduction will be nearly as low as the DPS's (with around 20% chance to reduce 24% damage? It won't be much to save them). Real tanks will suffer a loss but much less because their DR is only half-based on the armor (or 30% for the assassins). But I bet it will just result in guard not being used by skanks anymore. THEN we will see what truly was the problem, the skanks or the guard

[Schoock]

Guard in general just needs to be nerfed. Guard + taunt is 80%. Its dumb.

 

66.75%, not 80%, but don't let it throw you off your rant.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Schoock

[AdjeYo]

Writing the above led me to another anti-skank idea. Placing guard could reduce damage reduction against players. Skanks don't have tanky stats, so they benefit far less from the shield compared to tanks. The main reasons skanks are still tanky compared to pure DPS is the armor buff from the stance. If this buff is reduced while guarding (only against players, or guard will not be usable in raids) then the skank's damage reduction will be nearly as low as the DPS's (with around 20% chance to reduce 24% damage? It won't be much to save them). Real tanks will suffer a loss but much less because their DR is only half-based on the armor (or 30% for the assassins). But I bet it will just result in guard not being used by skanks anymore. THEN we will see what truly was the problem, the skanks or the guard

 

So are you talking about damage reduction or shield chance, because you say damage reduction, but then later on talk about a 20% chance to reduce 24% damage, which is not at all how damage reduction works. Either way it seems like a bad idea to me to reduce damage reduction while guarding, that's very punishing to tanks, since damage reduction is your most reliable form of mitigation.

[KendraP]

So are you talking about damage reduction or shield chance, because you say damage reduction, but then later on talk about a 20% chance to reduce 24% damage, which is not at all how damage reduction works. Either way it seems like a bad idea to me to reduce damage reduction while guarding, that's very punishing to tanks, since damage reduction is your most reliable form of mitigation.

 

His idea would work if shield works the way he says it does. The issue is this touches on an area we disagree on. I've tried what I think is the same or very similar gearing strategy to the one he uses in pvp and noticed no difference in survivability even under focus.

 

That said, however, I respect rafis opinion. We are two of the few who actually try to play like tanks in pvp. Most skanks are just wannabee dps who have no clue how to even slightly play a tank. I've avoided using this in my reasoning because I do not believe in making class balance based on skill gaps

Edited February 4, 2018 by KendraP