Discussion Topic: Game Update 5.4 and the Next Roadmap

[Transcendent]

Not me. I quit for a while because SWTOR has become far too much streamlined for my taste. A thing that most people are forgetting : SWTOr was SO MUCH changed that it might have met no more the TASTE of some players ...

 

People argueing here are insisting imho a bit too much on what THEY would have liked to have changed. Other possibilities don't seem to count, like the simple thing of "taste".

 

In SWTOR, I just can't tinker around anymore. that was a majjor turn-off for me.

But I admit that the amount of people like me might be small - but people like me are not non-existent, I bet.

 

It isn't just you, 4.0 essentially nuked the "tinker around" aspect for me personally. Level sync removed the enjoyment I could have in open world, as well as having some fun over-levelled in operations or flashpoints.

 

Essentially 4.0 removed a lot of the fun in this game, for me anyway. So no, you're not the only one who found that it no longer suited the simple thing of "taste". I mean it's great the developers have their own vision of how they want their game to be played, I'm fine with that. What I'm not fine is when they make things "not fun" or "not enjoyable", which is what 4.0 and 5.0 pretty much rammed down my throat in so so many different areas of the game. Which is why I hardly play now, and what I do play is very limited in comparison to what I played before 4.0 fundamentally altered this game to something I didn't really find enjoyable.

 

However it's great the developers have an idea of how they want to make players have "fun". Trouble is, that's their vision, not mine. I don't have to agree with it, ultimately it's not going to benefit them if they push players away by making changes to core gameplay that detracts to everything that went before those changes.

 

However, stubborn as ever I doubt they'll see that until it's far too late for them to rectify those errors (in the eyes of the players). Ben's ego did far more damage to this game, I doubt BioWare see that, especially if he has been moved onto other projects (I'll make sure never to touch anything he has a hand in though).

[TUXs]

In 2016 SWTOR was one of EA's top two earners.

Happen to have a link to back up this claim? SWTOR is competing with FIFA, Madden, and every other cross platform title they make...there's no chance in hell I believe this is anywhere close to accurate.

[IoNonSoEVero]

Happen to have a link to back up this claim? SWTOR is competing with FIFA, Madden, and every other cross platform title they make...there's no chance in hell I believe this is anywhere close to accurate.

 

Then I guess you don't believe EA's own annual reports which cover all quarters of the fiscal year. The annual report also specifically notes that SWTOR was not responsible for EA's losses, but two other games were.

 

https://materials.proxyvote.com/Approved/285512/20160606/CMBO_289527/

 

https://materials.proxyvote.com/Approved/285512/20170602/10K_328050/

 

For fiscal year 2016, service and other revenue was $1,899 million, primarily driven by FIFA Ultimate Team and Star Wars: The Old Republic. Service and other revenue for fiscal year 2016 decreased $48 million, or 2 percent, as compared to fiscal year 2015. This decrease was driven by a $421 million decrease primarily from Titanfall and Battlefield 4 Premium. This decrease was partially offset by a $373 million increase primarily from the Madden NFL franchise, Need for Speed 2015 and SimCity BuildIt.

[Exly]

We haven't had a stronghold in 2 years (if memory serves me) and they gave us 2 this year. I don't see adding 2 strongholds in two years as wasting resources. You may not see the benefit of it but there are a lot of people that do. On Ebon Hawk a lot of the strongholds are used for community events. There was just one last weekend where people went to hang out for a party someone was hosting, so for a lot of people they are something important to them.

 

I agree that there were people that wanted a new stronghold. I even knew one of those people. Unfortunately his last day as a sub was last Wednesday, and In case you are wondering, he quit because he no longer felt like he was getting his money's worth out of his sub fees due to the lack of new end game multiplayer content.

 

Over the years I have had many players leave the game because of a lack of new multiplayer content like operations, flashpoints and pvp, with most of them leaving over the issue of no new ops. I have lost at least 10 ops teams since the launch of SoR, and the number one reason that they left was the lack of new content.

 

In that time, the game has had it's ups and downs, and some people did return to play KotFE, but those that returned didn't last long when it became clear that the dev team had no intention of creating new content for them.

 

So, while I can't say that creating new strongholds was a complete waste of time. I can say that in my experience they have done nothing to retain customers, or to encourage people to resub to the game. As a result I question why they are using any resources at all on things like this when they have so little an impact on making someone decide to pay them money in order to play the game.

[Exly]

Then I guess you don't believe EA's own annual reports which cover all quarters of the fiscal year. The annual report also specifically notes that SWTOR was not responsible for EA's losses, but two other games were.

 

https://materials.proxyvote.com/Approved/285512/20160606/CMBO_289527/

 

https://materials.proxyvote.com/Approved/285512/20170602/10K_328050/

 

The initial release of KotFE was successful, and since that happened in the first quarter of EA's fiscal year, it makes sense that they profited from its release. Since then however, the game had been in a decline, and I fully expect to see a note about the reduction in profits in this years statement when it comes out later this year.

[TUXs]

Then I guess you don't believe EA's own annual reports which cover all quarters of the fiscal year. The annual report also specifically notes that SWTOR was not responsible for EA's losses, but two other games were.

 

https://materials.proxyvote.com/Approved/285512/20160606/CMBO_289527/

 

https://materials.proxyvote.com/Approved/285512/20170602/10K_328050/

You claimed SWTOR was in the top 2 earners for EA during 2016...your links say nothing of the sort.

[IoNonSoEVero]

You claimed SWTOR was in the top 2 earners for EA during 2016...your links say nothing of the sort.

 

Actually, it does, and I'm not going to believe you've read two 97 page legal documents in the time it took you to respond. You're just arguing now.

 

What do you think "revenue primarily driven by..." means? FIFA and SWTOR were the two games named. The annual reports clearly show that not only did KOTET/KOTFE do well, they did very well, and were not responsible for EA's losses.

[TUXs]

Actually, it does, and I'm not going to believe you've read two 97 page legal documents in the time it took you to respond. You're just arguing now.

 

What do you think "revenue primarily driven by..." means? FIFA and SWTOR were the two games named. The annual reports clearly show that not only did KOTET/KOTFE do well, they did very well, and were not responsible for EA's losses.

You don't need to - Service and Other is not their only source of revenue. Product sales far surpass Service and Other income.

[FourPawnBenoni]

It was pointed out previoiusly that EA's 2016 Q3 financial statement admitted it had lost millions of dollars of sub money. I am certain they gained some of those back in Nov/Dec with the release of 5.0 but that release has proven to be so bad with the CXP grind and RNG decisions that players have been dropping like flies.

 

I myself unsubbed in January; and even though I resubbed briefly last month because I heard they had made some changes I've already decided to cancel again.

 

This is due to one simple reason: No matter what their roadmap says; they can release new Ops, new PVP maps, new storyline...I don't care what the new content is. As long as the game involves ridiculous grinding system for RNG gear I will never sub again. PERIOD.

Edited August 3, 2017 by FourPawnBenoni

[IoNonSoEVero]

You don't need to - Service and Other is not their only source of revenue. Product sales far surpass Service and Other income.

 

At this point you're arguing against legal binding documents to try to support your belief that KOTFE/KOTET were somehow miserable failures. They were not. It's in print. And the devs are on the record as well as saying it's the most successful expansions. I'm not responding again because if you are willing to deny or try to spin what's in the company's friggin' annual reports to try to support your own dislike of the story content, there's really no point in continuing a dialogue.

[FourPawnBenoni]

At this point you're arguing against legal binding documents to try to support your belief that KOTFE/KOTET were somehow miserable failures. They were not. It's in print. And the devs are on the record as well as saying it's the most successful expansions. I'm not responding again because if you are willing to deny or try to spin what's in the company's friggin' annual reports to try to support your own dislike of the story content, there's really no point in continuing a dialogue.

 

I admit when 5.0 first released there were tons of players online. I guess if short term financial gain at the cost of destroying the player base is yours and the devs definition of success then I guess it certainly succeeded.

 

However, I am quite certain 2017 will have substantial loss compared to 2016. Log in yourself to any server, including Harb, where you will see significant decline in population base. December of 2016 on Shadowlands, Ebon Hawk and JC had 2-3 full fleet instances on Imp side in prime time. Now, you'll be lucky to see more than 75 players total.

Edited August 3, 2017 by FourPawnBenoni

[TUXs]

At this point you're arguing against legal binding documents to try to support your belief that KOTFE/KOTET were somehow miserable failures. They were not. It's in print. And the devs are on the record as well as saying it's the most successful expansions. I'm not responding again because if you are willing to deny or try to spin what's in the company's friggin' annual reports to try to support your own dislike of the story content, there's really no point in continuing a dialogue.

Please don't. You clearly don't understand what you've linked. And claiming KOTFE and KOTET were "successes", takes a new kind of spin entirely. I'm certain that by some obscure metric they actually were, but not in the way we needed.

[Kaizersan]

Actually, it does, and I'm not going to believe you've read two 97 page legal documents in the time it took you to respond. You're just arguing now.

 

What do you think "revenue primarily driven by..." means? FIFA and SWTOR were the two games named. The annual reports clearly show that not only did KOTET/KOTFE do well, they did very well, and were not responsible for EA's losses.

 

You do realize that means nothing because they don't list how much is pushed by each game IE fifa could be responsible for 90% of that revenue and swtor only 10% which is most likely the case as Fifa is a way bigger title vs swtor.

[IoNonSoEVero]

You do realize that means nothing because they don't list how much is pushed by each game IE fifa could be responsible for 90% of that revenue and swtor only 10% which is most likely the case as Fifa is a way bigger title vs swtor.

 

So you honestly think that they will name a game that only draws 10% revenue when they're citing the two games bringing in the most revenue? And that when they're reporting in a legal document that's filed in court and given to their investors that they will be so misleading?

 

I guess people will try to spin it any way that they feel fits their narrative of KOTET being awful. Especially when they are ignoring that EA names the games that have declined, and SWTOR isn't among them, and when the devs themselves have said it was very successful.

Edited August 3, 2017 by IoNonSoEVero

[ivanhedgehog]

As someone who plays this game because I love THE OLD REPUBLIC era that Bioware originally created with Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic, I get totally dismayed when I here people say... "We don't want story, we don't care about characters, we just want to kill, kill, kill." I shake my head wondering... 'Ummm, you do realize that they never advertised this game as that?'

 

Now, I will never raid, or do ops, or any of the other crazy hardcore group content. That does not mean people shouldn't have them.

 

I think they're working hard to address what we all want. It will take time, but I'm sure it will go faster if we all try to keep positive.

 

Do you know what they advertised this game as? STAR WARS. if this game was anything but star wars it would have long ago shut down. You can story till your eyes bleed while paying nothing. what cant you do without paying?? So what are they counting on to keep the $$$ rolling in and the lights on?

 

trick question..the star wars name..the same thing they used to attract players to the game originally.

[IoNonSoEVero]

I admit when 5.0 first released there were tons of players online. I guess if short term financial gain at the cost of destroying the player base is yours and the devs definition of success then I guess it certainly succeeded.

 

However, I am quite certain 2017 will have substantial loss compared to 2016. Log in yourself to any server, including Harb, where you will see significant decline in population base. December of 2016 on Shadowlands, Ebon Hawk and JC had 2-3 full fleet instances on Imp side in prime time. Now, you'll be lucky to see more than 75 players total.

 

The Fleet population isn't a sign of anything. Many of us avoid the Fleet like the plague, and there's no way to count the number of players in instanced areas/flashpoints/guild ships/etc. at any given time.

 

Also, when people have mentioned why they're not subscribing anymore, things like CXP, the way classes have been nerfed and grind for gear have come up far, far more than anything else.

 

Interesting thing, subscriptions seemed to decrease when the new content of substance stopped. December 2016 was when KOTET was in full swing. Nobody's flooded back in for PvP and Ops, regardless of how much people claim that is what is wanted.

[FerkWork]

If KOTFE and KOTET story expac were so successful then why the 360 and the stop to story only. I mean you don't stop if it makes hand over fist in cash. Devs even admitted the story model flopped due to "Netflix binge culture" but really cause it was light on anything. With Devs even before Keith took over refocusing on MMO content in an MMO lol it should be obviously clear that it wasn't a smashing success. In any case server population declines attest to that as well as the addition of CXP was meant to stop the decline but that failed and population dropped even further in 5.0. In any case it's a moot point as BW has learned their lesson I hope and going back to what an MMO should do make MMO content. As KBN said, Story is flavor content is substance.

 

People aren't flooding back as there's only been a trickle of content so far. Hopefully they can pick up the pace. Solo Story only won't bring people back only real content will and plenty of it.

Edited August 3, 2017 by FerkWork

[DarthSpuds]

make a poll and see for yourself post the poll on here and on reddit and see the difference.

 

A) We can't make polls here.

B) Reddit isn't the official communication channel, and there is no guarantee that such a poll wouldn't be skewed by sock puppet accounts.

 

But you knew that, you want to sound like you have some credibility, when we all know you don't.

 

All The Best

[DarthSpuds]

Not really because the truth is in the numbers of people who have unsubbed since the start after being dissatisfied with the game the number of unsubs is far greater then number of subs currently in game as subs represent support for the current state of the game.

 

Very true, but you have no proof whatsoever that they all unsubbed for the reasons you claim.

 

 

All The Best

[Exly]

So you honestly think that they will name a game that only draws 10% revenue when they're citing the two games bringing in the most revenue? And that when they're reporting in a legal document that's filed in court and given to their investors that they will be so misleading?

 

I guess people will try to spin it any way that they feel fits their narrative of KOTET being awful. Especially when they are ignoring that EA names the games that have declined, and SWTOR isn't among them, and when the devs themselves have said it was very successful.

 

The devs told us that cxp was exciting too, so it is obvious that they never put a spin on anything to make them seem better than they actually are.

 

Seriously, KotFE was very successful at launch, but by the time the eternal championship and the monthly chapters started rolling out, people started leaving the game in droves.

 

Since then the game has been on a slow downhill slide, and even though some people came back for KotET, the truth is that far fewer people came back than with KotFE, and the cxp grind was so poorly receive that it caused an acceleration of departures starting soon after launch.

 

Now you can dispute the decline in population if you want, but those of us that play the game know the truth.

[DarthSpuds]

That player base left for wow and final fantasy, those games don't have story but they do have raids... MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER.

 

If you want to enjoy the single player that's fine, but this is a multiplayer game and to ignore MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER content is to invite death.

 

Across the MMORPG industry only 20-25% of players Raid. and only 20-25% of players PvP regularly - and there is approx 50% crossover between those two groups.

 

A Turbine Community Moderator referenced an internal survey for LOTRO from 2013 or so; and while he couldn't link to that survey he did say the pattern was consistent across the industry, and other companies had reported similar findings. It was used at the time justify a cutting back in investment into Raids and PvP, in favour of smaller group and solo led content.

 

How do you explain an estimated 80% drop in subscribers because of the lack of content that only approximately 33% of players ever use?

 

It makes no sense.

 

All The Best

[Rion_Starkiller]

Charles specifically said that KOTFE / KOTET were there most numerically successful expansions. IIRC, Keith stated that the problem was that they did not produce much "MMO content" during those two expansions.

(I can dig through posts and link these two if someone demands proof, but I'd rather not do the work)

 

So there's a couple points that I want to make:

1. What constitutes "MMO content"? We can extrapolate that that does not mean "story" according to Keith.

2. KOTFE made EA lots of money. It was very successful. KOTET? I have not seen any numbers to indicate that it was a success at all. Is Charles counting the months of November/December, but not January/February?

3. Subscriptions have drastically fallen off (in my opinion, and as evident in server population). I suspect they will dip further in September thru mid-November while everyone waits with baited breath for 6.0.

 

 

The ultimate flaw in KOTFE / KOTET STORY expansions is that the stories require no ongoing subscription. Subscribe once when the XP comes out, then unsub. Re-sub 6 months later, then unsub. The community-reviled solution to the story-subscription flaw was to gate gear behind Galactic Command.

Edited August 3, 2017 by Rion_Starkiller

[JakRoanin]

Do you know what they advertised this game as? STAR WARS. if this game was anything but star wars it would have long ago shut down. You can story till your eyes bleed while paying nothing. what cant you do without paying?? So what are they counting on to keep the $$$ rolling in and the lights on?

 

trick question..the star wars name..the same thing they used to attract players to the game originally.

 

Yes they also were very insistent that the game was never supposed to be a traditional MMO.

 

I pay to subscribe so I can have the highest credit cap, craft whatever I want, Decorate SH's and enjoy the Legacy and perks. To put it bluntly I'm not an expert gamer. I don't even want to be one. If this game had a solo version like KOTOR and TSL I wouldn't have bothered to play any MMO. I believe that so long as it's reasonably feasible everyone should get a bit of what they crave from the game. However, I'm not so delusional to believe they can do everything that everyone wants.

 

PS. Right now I only need 2 things... I. Pop a dye into furniture. 2. No hook limits in SH's...

 

Do I want other things? Yes! But I'm cool right now.

[dontbeswg]

Across the MMORPG industry only 20-25% of players Raid. and only 20-25% of players PvP regularly - and there is approx 50% crossover between those two groups.

 

All The Best

 

That's the eyeballs, only .0000000000001% of the people on the planet play professional sports and that is the allure of it. These exceptional people pushing themselves to the limits is exciting to watch and aspire to. When this game had content that challenged people it was thriving, when that went away the vibe of the game left with it.

 

This is the concept people that don't raid don't understand, the content you are playing is a side dish to what makes these games desirable to the masses.

[dontbeswg]

riddle me this,

 

this game has uprisings, a new flashpoint, expansion current story as fresh as any other mmo on the market YET!!!!!!!!!!!!

it's dead....

 

how do you small content folks explain that?