kodrac Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 All of your assumptions about players speed leveling are proven false by Bioware's very own information. MOST never even got their starter ship. I know (or rather knew) lots of 60 and 65 (at the time) pvpers that never had their ship. Leveling purely through Warzones and speed leveling in PvE were definitely real things in the recent past. I don't know about now. I'm not necessarily arguing your point, I'm just throwing it out there that end game was not gated by playing the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 (edited) I know (or rather knew) lots of 60 and 65 (at the time) pvpers that never had their ship. Leveling purely through Warzones and speed leveling in PvE were definitely real things in the recent past. I don't know about now. I'm not necessarily arguing your point, I'm just throwing it out there that end game was not gated by playing the story. You think 89% did that huh? Even speed leveling in PvE, you have to get your ship because it was the only way to advance your class story and progress to harder mobs which were the only source of XP. It's not like it was an option to buy like Speeder Piloting 2, it's given to you before you finish Chapter 1. 89% of the characters created, didn't even do that. Edited August 4, 2017 by TUXs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FerkWork Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 Taking bets now on which Spec we will receive the details on first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kodrac Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 You think 89% did that huh? Well, no. That graphic about fleets having 6 million ships seems odd too. I was just saying that having a ship or not is definite proof of progression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 Well, no. That graphic about fleets having 6 million ships seems odd too. I was just saying that having a ship or not is definite proof of progression. It came directly from Bioware. I'm not sure what you mean by "odd", but if you're questioning their ability to read their own data, I think you're mistaken. The people you're talking about, leveling in alternative ways, are the exception to the rule, not the norm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 (edited) Well, no. That graphic about fleets having 6 million ships seems odd too. I was just saying that having a ship or not is definite proof of progression. Heh... good luck convincing him. I don't see every claim he makes in the forum as I have him blocked... but when a quote propagates, I sometimes take time to see what he is peddling. There are a number of false claims in his statements and he is very much misusing and misrepresenting the information he is pitching. But this not unusual really as TUXs likes to use any stats that fit his narrative to promote his narrative, whatever it might be for the day. A lot of players do to be honest. Like trying to stretch character count not capped (in an alt friendly game), or ship count or any other top level metric as indicative of anything specific about any demographic of player. he also appears to have misrepresented the data sourcing as it was not from year one but at the end of year 3.... so you have to listen BUT verify. Note also that he ignored the fact that the metrics he referenced shows 1 Million active players at the 3 year anniversary... which indicates a notable recovery for the game from it's low point in late 2012. At least everyone pretty well agrees that the game suffered in excess of 70% attrition in the first nine months of the game before the studio shifted the business model and adjusted it's content plans. Some of it was due to many expected features being missing for many months after launch. Some of it is due purely to the more nomadic nature of MMO players these days. Some of it was due to long standing Bioware fans finding that an MMO is just not for them... even though they love story arcs Bioware style. And of course there is always the ever popular "MMO X has this.. why doesn't SWTOR. I stand by my earlier assessment as to major demographic groups and how they responded to the game at launch. Raiders were disappointed because... no raids. PvPers were disappointed due to bad PvP performance when Illum fell flat on it's face in live release, and PvP venues were extremely limited. Bioware KOTOR fans were disappointed that SWTOR was not KOTOR3. These were all feelings expressed in mass by players in the first year in the forum.. NOT some studio high level metrics being misrepresented and misused. Clearly.. the game has suffered since 2014 in terms of total active player population. But the game is still pretty active with players, regardless of some peoples claims otherwise. Edited August 4, 2017 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 But this not unusual really as TUXs likes to use any stats that fit his narrative to promote his narrative, whatever it might be for the day.Yeah, I can see how me using facts directly from Bioware to argue that you were wrong can seem like me promoting a narrative Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kodrac Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 (edited) It came directly from Bioware. I'm not sure what you mean by "odd", but if you're questioning their ability to read their own data, I think you're mistaken. The people you're talking about, leveling in alternative ways, are the exception to the rule, not the norm. Yes,I agree, alternate leveling is the exception to the rule which is why I said I'm not arguing your point. I'm only throwing out that having a ship isn't a good metric to go on. But if you want to know why I interpret that graphic differently than you do... They start out by saying 57 million characters created. Then they say 6,8 million player ships for fleet size. Player ships. Are they saying there were 6.8 million players total, or were there more? I'm one player with 10 characters so technically that's 60 player ships. So yeah, it's odd. They didn't say only 11.5% played far enough to get a ship. That's you taking 57m characters and dividing by 6.8m players, which may not even be a total number and is two different data types, and concluding that only 11.5% of players got past level 17-18 (at the time). I think you've taken a very simplistic approach that may very well be incorrect. Because if they did say only 11.5% of players couldn't progress as far as level 20 it wouldn't be something to brag about which is what that graphic's purpose was. But I doubt anyone from that time is still around to ask to clarify. And, oddly enough, I do question their ability to read their own data. Edited August 4, 2017 by kodrac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi_Consular_El Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 Am I the only one who is not amused about credits becoming legacy bound? This means an improvement for subscribers, but for preferred players and F2Ps it only makes things worse. Yeah, I know what people are going to say, you need to pay. Thing is, by doing so, you will prevent people who have juste came into the game and haven't subscribed yet from enjoying it more. Imposing such restrictions on F2Ps may, instead of making them subscribe, have an opposite effect, in which they lose all the enjoyment of the game and quit alltogether. In my opinion, there are already more than enough restrictions on F2Ps/ prefs. They can't do ops alltogether( unlike pre-5.0, where it was improbable, but not impossible), they don't have a cargo hold, they have reduced XP, a level cap difference with current subscribers( and they can't gear up when they reach their cap), and they can't buy 90% of what is sold on GTN because of the prices. I am for turning credits into a Legacy currency, but only if there is also a credit cap raise for prefs and F2Ps( I say the current cap for each category * the amount of character slots that category has by default). P. S. If I were pref or f20, I wouldn't be able to post this at all. Whatever accusations of not wanting to pay for me you had, they are invalid. Come at me "u no sub mate" people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eshvara Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 Am I the only one who is not amused about credits becoming legacy bound? This means an improvement for subscribers, but for preferred players and F2Ps it only makes things worse. Yeah, I know what people are going to say, you need to pay. Thing is, by doing so, you will prevent people who have juste came into the game and haven't subscribed yet from enjoying it more. Imposing such restrictions on F2Ps may, instead of making them subscribe, have an opposite effect, in which they lose all the enjoyment of the game and quit alltogether. In my opinion, there are already more than enough restrictions on F2Ps/ prefs. They can't do ops alltogether( unlike pre-5.0, where it was improbable, but not impossible), they don't have a cargo hold, they have reduced XP, a level cap difference with current subscribers( and they can't gear up when they reach their cap), and they can't buy 90% of what is sold on GTN because of the prices. I am for turning credits into a Legacy currency, but only if there is also a credit cap raise for prefs and F2Ps( I say the current cap for each category * the amount of character slots that category has by default). P. S. If I were pref or f20, I wouldn't be able to post this at all. Whatever accusations of not wanting to pay for me you had, they are invalid. Come at me "u no sub mate" people Im fairly sure they did say they were going to do something to pref status as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi_Consular_El Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 Im fairly sure they did say they were going to do something to pref status as well. Might have missed it. Don't like reading long threads( I'm lazy). Still, if they are foing to make credits legacy wide while leaving the old cap in place, this would be an overkill for f2p/ prefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 Yes,I agree, alternate leveling is the exception to the rule which is why I said I'm not arguing your point. I'm only throwing out that having a ship isn't a good metric to go on. But if you want to know why I interpret that graphic differently than you do... They start out by saying 57 million characters created. Then they say 6,8 million player ships for fleet size. Player ships. Are they saying there were 6.8 million players total, or were there more? I'm one player with 10 characters so technically that's 60 player ships. So yeah, it's odd. They didn't say only 11.5% played far enough to get a ship. That's you taking 57m characters and dividing by 6.8m players, which may not even be a total number and is two different data types, and concluding that only 11.5% of players got past level 17-18 (at the time). I think you've taken a very simplistic approach that may very well be incorrect. Because if they did say only 11.5% of players couldn't progress as far as level 20 it wouldn't be something to brag about which is what that graphic's purpose was. But I doubt anyone from that time is still around to ask to clarify. One metric that is largely ignored.. yet easy to see on the forum: ~ 20.8 Million unique player accounts (as of last week) since launch. This can easily be seen when a new player pops up on the forum and you check their forum id number. What we do not know is the split in that 20.8 million between subbed/preferred/F2P/Inactive. If I had to guess.. probably ~ 50% of those ever actually moved beyond F2P. None of which speaks to how many active players there are right now today in SWTOR.. which is really the only metric that matters at a top level today. @#$% that did, or did not, happen 5 years ago is pretty irrelevant to the current state of the game and associated discussion. It would be interesting to actually see a top level breakdown by the studio as to number of active players, splits between sub/non-sub, as well as capturing data as to where they spend their time in major categories. But that is of course sensitive information that studios do not like to reveal to their competitors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kodrac Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 (edited) It would be interesting to actually see a top level breakdown by the studio as to number of active players, splits between sub/non-sub, as well as capturing data as to where they spend their time in major categories. But that is of course sensitive information that studios do not like to reveal to their competitors. Yes, we'll never know how many total active players there are, how many characters they have or how far they're leveled, if they made a forum account, etc. So to use one metric and dividing it by another metric to create a theory is unreliable at best. It's something gamers like to accuse devs of doing all the time - misinterpreting their metrics. Edited August 4, 2017 by kodrac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Transcendent Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 It came directly from Bioware. I'm not sure what you mean by "odd", but if you're questioning their ability to read their own data, I think you're mistaken. Erm. That one did make me smile somewhat, are you sure about that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docbenwayddo Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 Erm. That one did make me smile somewhat, are you sure about that? I'm positive they can read it just fine. Interpreting it is a whole other kettle of Selkath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Transcendent Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 I'm positive they can read it just fine. Interpreting it is a whole other kettle of Selkath. Well, you make a fair point! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissilyMilcasia Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 (edited) It came directly from Bioware. I'm not sure what you mean by "odd", but if you're questioning their ability to read their own data, I think you're mistaken. Their unwavering faith in the Command System and the raid drought, both of which the data showed were terrible in theory and practice, make me question that statement. Edited August 4, 2017 by MissilyMilcasia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 Erm. That one did make me smile somewhat, are you sure about that? Fair enough lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dontbeswg Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 Why would I care about what someone is streaming? If I not playing the game, I have other things to do then watch someone "stream" a game. I have never watched someone streaming a game and have no reason to do so now. I have more important things to do when I am not playing. you're the minority then, most people do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dontbeswg Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 If Ford makes a Shelby at $80,000, not everyone can afford it. Does that mean they should stop making high end cars and only build Ford Focuses because that's the type of car most people can afford? Exactly the point, most kids in the 90s want a lambo and even though they grew up and never could afford it they still admire the nature of it. Again, raids are what makes these game special, and it's being neglected. Ultimately it doesn't matter, this game will be over by the time anthem is released as it will take the rest of EA's mmo development budget. So enjoy the dead game while you can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dontbeswg Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 Stop writing it then; it'll save us wasting time reading it as well. All The Best The joke is on you, you got the game you wanted and it's still no good. You have a countdown to death for this game spuddy, when Anthem is released the budget for this game will be erased. When that happens there will be no content because they will pull the F^&*ing plug! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dontbeswg Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 at that point spud you can be the last jedi huh?! won't that be fun an mmo with no players on it <eyeroll> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dontbeswg Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 I didn't make it up. At the one year anniversary they gave us this info-graphic: http://www.swtor.com/info/news/news-article/20141126 Of the 57 MILLION characters created, only 6.8 million (11.52%) ever got their starter ships. After one full year, only 11.52% of the players ever got through the second planet story. There was no summons back then, no guild ships...your personal spaceship was the only means you had to traverse anywhere but Fleet. So...my assertion that most players never even completed their first story at the launch of this game, seems like a reasonable and accurate assumption given the facts we have been given. get rekt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dontbeswg Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 Ummmm... This has to a be troll post. Uprisings are total garbage.. Uprisings are fine, they are just as good as any flashpoints... it must be that you people don't want 4 player content huh? Maybe something more massive hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dontbeswg Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 Their unwavering faith in the Command System and the raid drought, both of which the data showed were terrible in theory and practice. Hey but we have a raid that is not even half complete... they are focusing on raid content... Oh well maybe Anthem won't be terrible... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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