Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

[MaceTowani]

My stance is that it happens. Complain all you want, it's happening and it will be fixed. Just like every single bug that's ever happened in an MMO.

 

What are you people suggesting? That if this thread was closed right now, we would be left with a "clunky" unresponsive combat system until the game dies?

 

Don't be ridiculous.

 

Took WoW seven years to "get it right." Now we have a unique combat system that works differently and people just want to go back to WoW because it is what their most familiar with. Why else bring up a WoW comparison every other post?

[Paganini]

I don't see why this is still debated. If you can't naturally feel the delay based on the way you play, then do the "mount" test. Doesn't matter what machine you're on, class, or whatever. You can re-create it time after time.

 

Simply hit your mount key then try moving forward the second the bar shows that it's finished. your mount will appear and then disappear. Doesn't matter if you keybind, click, spam keybinds, or spam clicks.

 

That is the delay that is plaguing everything you do. Whether it be animations or capping a node on Alderan warfront, it's there.

 

Sure, you can get around it by waiting an extra second or whatever, but that doesn't mean the issue isn't happening. I doubt that it's intended or has anything thing to do with the way combat is "meant" to be. If players are comfortable with watching animations and timing and what not, that's totally fine. I'm not here to judge or critique. Just have fun. I'd love it if everyone was happy. Understand though, that most players keybind. Most players that keybind also spam to a degree. To ensure they are maximizing efficiency every 1.5 seconds with zero downtime.

 

There's roughly 1.5 million playing. Out of that, i'd bet only 20k post on the forums. I'm the only one in my guild that reads the forums, and i can assure you that they are all complaining about this as well. They just don't care about the life of the game like i do. Most people don't care enough to post, they'll just quit and be done with it. It sucks, cause it makes me look like a total fan boy for defending bioware and this issue. It's like i have to beg people to give it time to hopefully be fixed.

 

Also keep in mind that this issue is all over other gaming forums and spreading. All it takes is a handful of people to tell their friends that the combat isn't responsive and to not buy until it's fixed. Then they tell 2 friends and so on. Add that to how easy it is to find tons of people complaining about it all over the forums.

 

Just try the mount thing for yourself if you can't notice it and help work towards a better game. Enough with the "adjust" to faulty system. That doesn't fly with everyone.

 

Great post.

[JediMasterShake]

It's obvious that there are folks in this thread who simply don't grasp what is going on here. Honestly, that's fine, you don't need to understand.

 

All I want is Bioware to comment on the issue. Either:

 

"We're happy with the current state of gameplay responsiveness."

 

Or

 

"We plan to improve gameplay responsiveness."

 

And that's all I'll need to know to make my decision to renew my subscription.

 

[mbernert]

Took WoW seven years to "get it right." Now we have a unique combat system that works differently and people just want to go back to WoW because it is what their most familiar with. Why else bring up a WoW comparison every other post?

 

I personally don't care that wow has more battlegrounds, or they work "better", or the system has more "options".

 

I care that the interaction between me and my character is not fluid imo.

 

Out of many games I've played over the last 10 years, wow gets character control RIGHT.

 

Every mmo released could do better to copy that very single aspect of their game to the T imo.

[Xzenorath]

There is no official communication about this ... so at this time we are not sure that will be fixed ....

 

so its only a problem for now

 

Can't say I remember the last time an MMO had bugs laying around and never got to fixing them. The fact that monday's patch already addressed some of it by fixing an issue with some GCD's not displaying properly means they're aware there's issues with the combat system, it's UI and how it currently functions.

 

This being known, why in god's name would anyone feel like they'll never fix this unless you keep a thread alive for 6000 pages.

 

They've said in the past that they keep an eye on the forums, and when threads like these go on and on and on, they always eventually show up and say "we've known you guys have given a lot of feedback on X and Y for a long time, we never came out and gave you an answer because we weren't ready to provide one yet".

 

It will be fixed, it's just a matter of resources and time. Personally, it's the best MMO I've ever played, the combat looks great and it feels pretty good as it is. Whenever they get around to fixing the GCD's not quite firing off properly and the instant casts being a bit hit and miss, then it'll feel as good as it looks and I'll still be here, paying and playing.

 

Not complaining and threatening to leave -.-

[Paganini]

This isn't the "bug" reporting forum. Submit a ticket if you want to be useful.

 

Reporting a bug should never include "**** FIX THIS NOW OR ILL QUIT, ITS BREAKING THE GAME".

 

I've already submitted a ticket. The purpose of this being in the general forums is responses like this:

 

YES! Finally someone has explained what I was experiencing and couldn't understand... The OP explained what I was seeing perfectly.

[Xzenorath]

This isn't the "bug" reporting forum. Submit a ticket if you want to be useful.

 

Reporting a bug should never include "**** FIX THIS NOW OR ILL QUIT, ITS BREAKING THE GAME".

 

This.

[Noirani]

Posting to help voice the problem and to rate the thread.

[Rahi]

what I don't get, some people are claiming, that the TOR combat system is different from WOWs?

IMO it is exactly the same system besides not having autoattack and being unresponsive.

With the second being unintended, I guess.

 

So what would be the difference? Can someone enlighten me?

[Monkertrol]

Took WoW seven years to "get it right." Now we have a unique combat system that works differently and people just want to go back to WoW because it is what their most familiar with. Why else bring up a WoW comparison every other post?

 

lololololol! it took them seven years? they wouldn't have gotten to where they were if they hadn't achieved it much sooner than just last month when wow turned seven. BW should fix it asap.

[MaceTowani]

I personally don't care that wow has more battlegrounds, or they work "better", or the system has more "options".

 

I care that the interaction between me and my character is not fluid imo.

 

Out of many games I've played over the last 10 years, wow gets character control RIGHT.

 

Every mmo released could do better to copy that very single aspect of their game to the T imo.

 

But then they will get flamed for ripping WoW's combat and people would say, "If I wanted WoW combat, I would had played WoW. I payed for SWTOR, not WoW."

[Lionerd]

It's obvious that there are folks in this thread who simply don't grasp what is going on here. Honestly, that's fine, you don't need to understand.

 

All I want is Bioware to comment on the issue. Either:

 

"We're happy with the current state of gameplay responsiveness."

 

Or

 

"We plan to improve gameplay responsiveness."

 

And that's all I'll need to know to make my decision to renew my subscription.

 

 

100% Agree.

[Xzenorath]

Um, here's what he actually said:

 

 

 

minor difference....

 

So... "This will make or break this game" does not imply in any shape or form that this game will fail if this bug isn't acknowledged today and fixed tomorrow?

 

Zzzz.

[freakuancy]

We arent talking about lag or similar ... this is a problem in ui and combat Mechanics..

 

I do all the beta/early start of AAA mmo .. (just except some aoc exploit, anothe story there) never see a problem like that, maybe lag .. that just disappear after some week... but this is a client problem... and nobody of bioware said that they are looking into this.

 

See, this is the problem.

 

This is why everyone is arguing with you, because somebody made a stupid assumption and said right off the bat that its not lag/latency. And now everyone is assuming optimal conditions and are calling you out on it because they themselves don't experience it.

 

IT IS LATENCY. You have made a grave error in judgement simply writing it off as a localized UI issue. NOT EVERYONE EXPERIENCES IT BECAUSE IT IS LATENCY.

 

I won't make the mistake of trying to use my personal credentials to add weight to the argument, because everyone will just write it off with "Oh look someone else pretending to be in IT/Game Design/A Disciple of God/Whatever on the forums." Instead I'll try and talk some sense.

 

Some days, I have no problems with this. Other days, it's like "la de da, am I done mounting my speeder yet?".

 

This is the same issue that shooters experienced in the days before dedicated servers. Example: Gears of War. Ever play it? The Host Shotgun phenomenon. Because the shotgun had a longer discharge animation, the person hosting multiplayer had a massive advantage over it because he was basically able to kill people before anyone knew he was aiming at them. You have no idea how many times I -stepped behind my attacker- and was blown to chunks.

 

WoW experiences latency too. It just handles it differently. How many times have you pressed your ability key and NOTHING HAPPENED? How many times did your cast bar fill up and you still stood there casting like an idiot for 5-10 seconds? WoW doesn't synch with every ability the way SWTOR does. It just lets the client move along until allthesuddeneverythinghappensatoncethescreenexplodeswithactivityandyouaredead.

 

SWTOR appears to attempt to circumvent this by at least trying to synch every ability to the server. This causes problems similar to the Host phenomenon I described above. This is exacerbated by the GCD being flat-out wrong in many cases, and some abilities actually being longer than the GCD in terms of animation. This is the drawback of complex animations in an MMO.

 

These are all very subtle tweaks to be made. It won't require a re-write of the combat engine like so many ignorant fools are predicting. Let me be clear: they have no idea what they're talking about.

 

Yes its a little sobering to see legacy issues like this pop up in a brand new game. I have no doubt that they will be addressed. Tweaks will be made. But stop assuming EVERYONE experiences this ALL THE TIME. Because they don't. And to the other half: stop assuming the people complaining are just stupid. They're not. It's a real issue. Just not a HUGE one.

[Tinkersw]

Let me recap.

 

I said it's normal for a newly launched MMO to have bugs and be unresponsive.

You said WOW WAS SMOOTH ON DAY 1

I pointed out proof that WOW was not smooth on day 1

You told me to stop talking about WOW

I told you, you brought up WOW

You tell me you're calling me on my ********.

 

We're going in circles here.

 

New MMO's have bugs in them.

They're not smooth.

Expect things to not be responsive all the time.

 

If you don't understand this, then just leave and come back in 7 years when everything is smooth. I don't know what to tell you man, that's how the industry works. They spend millions of dollars and years creating this ****. If it was easy to launch a smooth responsive MMO on day 1, everyone would do it. Get it?

 

LOLOLOL

as most of your post irritate me this one is freeking funny as hell.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Tinkersw

[MaceTowani]

lololololol! it took them seven years? they wouldn't have gotten to where they were if they hadn't achieved it much sooner than just last month when wow turned seven. BW should fix it asap.

 

Eh, I would say a good 2-3 years. All I know is WoW was at it's peak shortly after they released their Free Trial, which was....06, 07? So around then.

[Moriam]

Hey guys there is an AMA (ask me anything) on the subreddit for swtor. Here is the link:

 

Stephen Reid is fielding questions from people about the game. He mentions right away that he cannot comment on design decisions, but we can atleast let him know this is an important issue to us. Upvote the appropriate replies, and make your own as well.

 

Oh and leave your pitchforks =P.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Moriam

[Lionerd]

Can't say I remember the last time an MMO had bugs laying around and never got to fixing them. The fact that monday's patch already addressed some of it by fixing an issue with some GCD's not displaying properly means they're aware there's issues with the combat system, it's UI and how it currently functions.

 

This being known, why in god's name would anyone feel like they'll never fix this unless you keep a thread alive for 6000 pages.

 

They've said in the past that they keep an eye on the forums, and when threads like these go on and on and on, they always eventually show up and say "we've known you guys have given a lot of feedback on X and Y for a long time, we never came out and gave you an answer because we weren't ready to provide one yet".

 

It will be fixed, it's just a matter of resources and time. Personally, it's the best MMO I've ever played, the combat looks great and it feels pretty good as it is. Whenever they get around to fixing the GCD's not quite firing off properly and the instant casts being a bit hit and miss, then it'll feel as good as it looks and I'll still be here, paying and playing.

 

Not complaining and threatening to leave -.-

 

You see an official note that say that is unintended ?! I no, and is this that i want to know ..

 

All other things (mine and yours) are just dust in the wind .

[Dizzyjd]

Impossible to heal in this game..

 

It is not impossible....

 

I am really amazed at the impatience and entitlement of a lot of posters...

 

I don't disagree there is an issue here but FFS it is day 8. Let them get thier arms around the issue and trouble shoot it. If I were bioware I wouldn't announce anything until I had a root cause. It's self defeating for them to tell the population that they are working on it, because most of the sky is falling mentality would be back on an hour after bw said they are working on it talking about how it isn't fixed yet.

 

 

I have faith the game will improve, and agree this should be a priority....but if you can't wait more than 8 days to fix issues without threatening to cancel I can't see how you can ever really expect to play an mmo

Edited December 28, 2011 by Dizzyjd

[Xzenorath]

what I don't get, some people are claiming, that the TOR combat system is different from WOWs?

IMO it is exactly the same system besides not having autoattack and being unresponsive.

With the second being unintended, I guess.

 

So what would be the difference? Can someone enlighten me?

 

Each ability has a different animation. You can tell visually by looking at your attacker, what ability he's using. GL telling what an affliction warlock is casting on you.

 

Hits, dodges and parries actually happen visually. Not in WoW.

 

There's knockback in this game, WoW doesn't have it.

 

 

There's a couple other things I can't remember off the top of my head but the first 2 items are why it's difficult for Bioware to time and tune everything perfectly.

 

It'll get there eventually, there's no doubt in my mind.

[Isende]

I wasn't, I'm not attacking you, I'm just saying, right now some of these bugs are rough, especially for healers (god knows you'll get blamed the second anybody dies, even if they've been standing in the giant glowing lightning thunderstorm happening directly ontop of them because they were too busy staring at their quickslot bars to look at their GCD's not firing off properly every .5 seconds. OH MY GAWD!) but the reality is that it's obviously going to be fixed.

 

Leaving won't help.

Threatening to leave won't help.

Claiming that WOW or EQ did it better won't help.

Arguing about semantics won't help.

 

Either you adapt and deal with it until they get around to fix it, or you just leave and move on to the next MMO and leave that one too.

 

These threads bore me.

 

well, see, the original posting spelled it out quite nicely. overall, healing's a bit simpler here than i've had in other games -- i.e., not quite as much to learn and know and understand and ... dare i say it? anticipate ... but on the other hand, there's this "feature" that says, your next cast will not start, no matter whether it's ready or not, UNTIL THE ANIMATION ON YOUR LAST CAST IS COMPLETE.

 

blather has ensued, with people rioting, saying, "this isn't a problem, it's you!" truth is, it IS a feature written into the system, it IS something beta testers griped about from day one, and it is something that so far has been overlooked. now, it comes to mass release, and you have people who're just so excited to be playing this game that they overlook what, for others of us, is a flaw. for instance, if i MUST move forward or jump to break a 2.5 sec cast BEFORE i can toss off my instant/hot, or my shield, then there's an issue there. if the hot or the shield are ready, then i should not have to move or jump to break a cast, i should be able to "change my mind" and react to the situation. for instance, i'm topping off a dps who was silly and stood in the glowey circle in the ground. 2.5 sec spell will work, i start casting it, but then the tank does something even sillier and overpulls -- so i need to shield and hot him. oops, can't, because i started this other cast previously, and it WON'T STOP BECAUSE IT HAS TO COMPLETE ITS ANIMATION!

 

this is not a flaw, not a bug, but a feature. features can sometimes be changed, cannot sometimes be changed. the entire thrust of this particular thread is, for many serious gamers, this will be a make-or-break issue -- and we LIKE this game, and we don't want it to be a break issue, so PLEASE help us bring it to bioware/ea's attention so that we can enjoy the game for years to come.

 

all the rest of the debate? it's really fluff. the preening and posturing and "i'm perfect and if you played like me you'd never have a problem?" again, fluff. the issue is, this situations exists. many of us think, if it's changed or "fixed," we'll have a higher retention of player base, AND more enjoyment of the game. if the subs fall off because of this issue, then we may lose out on something that potentially has the ability to last for a very long time.

 

i've stated above, just cuz i know someone's gonna flame it -- if it weren't for my guild and my boyfriend being here, i'd still be in rift. but that doesn't mean i can't enjoy my time here. it just means that rather than being able to enjoy my time as much as i'd like, i have to find ways to work around an issue that seriously does affect gameplay, in amongst many many others.

[EyePawd]

lololololol! it took them seven years? they wouldn't have gotten to where they were if they hadn't achieved it much sooner than just last month when wow turned seven. BW should fix it asap.

 

There isn't a switch that these companies turn on, with it suddenly being 'right'. Saying it's taken them seven years is a correct estimate, as the combat in terms of flow and functionality is ever-changing. It always will change.

 

It's a change that is going to happen either over a period of time, or not at all. Make your decision off of that.

[mbernert]

But then they will get flamed for ripping WoW's combat and people would say, "If I wanted WoW combat, I would had played WoW. I payed for SWTOR, not WoW."

 

I think you missed my point. The fluid control of combat, that wow has, is how it should be done imo. When I press a key in wow, that action happens NOW.

 

Like I said in an earlier post of mine. Many here supporting this thread believe the problem to be a bug. Some of this I think might be true, as far as some abilities not working all together.

 

My support on this thread however, is different. I believe the slugish combat "feel" i have ingame was a dev decision to make combat animation look smooth and take higher priority over game control. I may be wrong here, I hope I am, in which case my feel of slugish combat will be fixed. But playing various mmos over the last 10 years, I don't have high hopes.

[andanetr]

Again, my game works fine. If its not your hardware....its your software.

 

Wow, troubleshooting is so hard sometimes....

 

As I said before, the 300 pages would suggest differently.

 

Wow, actually being intelligent is so hard sometimes ...

[Spetsnazos]

Posting in support of OP and to cap this thread out as well.

 

Make sure to rate it 5.

 

As I said in the previous 260 page thread. You wont hear a response, the only thing is they will close the old thread and open a new one. They'll make this thread seem small(60 pages) compared to the old one that is 260+ pages.

 

Great job bioware.