Anyone else totally bummed at the complete removal of Hybrids?

[Grayseven]

*shrug* The characters I have non-min-maxed, non-FotM builds on never seem to be held back. But then, I tend to favor passive-heavy builds that don't require a lot of "chaining" or "triggers". At least on the class we know the changed setup for, it's stripping away a good chunk of the build I've been using for over a year.

 

And since the "if you're not doing endgame, you're nothing" crowd doesn't give a damn what effect this has on anyone else as long as it props up their corner of the game, why should anyone else care about the effect that bad players under the current system has on them?

 

Never mind that bad players will be bad players and balance issues will continue completely unabated no matter what system is put in place -- WoW already proved that.

 

 

 

And to hell with anyone whose skillset might built around what works best for them in solo play and who doesn't have any plans to engage in hardcore endgame, I suppose?

 

Some of us simply have zero interest in spending hours a night grinding the gear to beat the raid to get the gear to beat raid to get the gear to... we just aren't interested in studying the intricacies of boss #135 out of 290, where on the even stages you stand on the red squares, and on the odd stages you stand on the blue squares, except in stage 5 where you have to keep moving because of the AoEs that drop, and be careful because in random stages clearing the adds just heals the boss, and make sure you run towards the med station if you get hit with the purple curse or you'll get mind controlled after 6.35 seconds and...

 

If you aren't doing endgame, or the grind or whatever you want to call it then why do you care at all how the classes are done? Seriously, no hybrid build lets you do anything else better than a full build anyway so what exactly is your beef?

 

It sounds like you are miffed for absolutely no reason whatsoever. It makes no sense. Are you somehow going to be less efficient running the Heroics 40 levels below you to farm Planetary Comms or whatever it is you do as a hybrid?

 

Even if you PvP, there are few hybrids that are worthwhile and the ones that are aren't "special" because a lot of people use them.

 

Just deal with it. If we get better balance out of it and the ability to customize our utility without having to take garbage skills then I'm all for it. The only hybrid I have ever run was a heal/dps Sorc that I used in tac FP's and 50 HM's because you don't need a full healer to do them...in any other instance including PvP it is a recipe for disaster.

[Max_Killjoy]

It sounds like you are miffed for absolutely no reason whatsoever. It makes no sense. Are you somehow going to be less efficient running the Heroics 40 levels below you to farm Planetary Comms or whatever it is you do as a hybrid?

 

Yeah, that's all we're doing out here in the land of "filthy casuals" -- grinding sublevel content in our 55s... you just keep right on with your assumption that the universe has to be built around endgame raids.

Edited October 10, 2014 by Max_Killjoy

[BeeblesTV]

Nope.

[Heal-To-Full]

The new discipline system makes me a sad panda.

Why?

Mostly because it makes me a panda.

[kirbyshocksword]

I have, from the beginning of the game, played nothing but Hybrids for a number of reasons.

 

1. I HATE cookie cutter templates. Hate them. Full tree spec anything is totally boring to me. Requires little to no strategy, tactics, or real thinking to play.

 

2. I HATE being "like everyone else". For me, I LOVE being unique. Hardly anyone played dps/heal hybrid, or tank/dps hybrid the first year of the game. I have done that with ALL my characters except the few that only have dps specs only, ie Sentinel.

 

3. I prefer being unpredictable in combat. - In pvp, everyone expects certain abilities or actions from certain classes. Hybrids gave me the ability to be unpredictable. I traded some effectiveness for some surprise, and it was always worth it to me.

 

 

The new Discipline system completely and utterly destroys Hybrids. In my opinion shoves everyone into a rock/paper/scissor role and it sucks. Sucks big time. Plus, they are now totally destroying the 4th pillar of play, CC. Now there really is no place for strategic battle controllers. It is tank, heal or dps, and pretty much... only DPS in pvp. (after all, the expertise system CLEARLY favors dps classes 3 to 1.)

 

Granted, this is just from my point of view. I understand the logic behind the dev reasoning. I understand the ************ and moaning from the min/maxer raid and pvp crowd. It just sucks for someone like me, who has spent hours testing and designing templates that were completely unique.

 

In my opinion it is no longer about skill, tactics, strategy or creative creation.

 

Now it is all about gear stats. Everyone is going to have the same BS cookie cutter FOTM BS template, and there is going to be ZERO diversity. There are going to be "must have skills" like moving while casting etc. This is going to DESTROY one of the huge aspects I loved about this game. DIVERSITY

 

This move, in my opinion, is a complete dumbing down, simplification of the talents. It is going to be boring and lack creativity.

 

Add to this that PVP is already stupidly over powered in favor of DPS classes, and that some raiders wont take certain classes on end game content, and you are in effect, thus making an annoying problem become a massive game breaking problem.

 

Sorry, but I watched and re-watched the twitch feed today, and I have to say. I am completely disappointed with this system. Personally for me, it may end up being the proverbial straw.

 

Two thumbs down.

Never used them anyway.

Makes the game harder if you have someone using hybrids and they dont know what to do.

[Ryuku-sama]

I'd gladly stick to the balance tree with my sage if my inability to use a mouse didn't make the AoE worthless to me. To clarify, due to LONG LONG LONG experiences with other PC games (having started with Doom! way back when it was brand new) and after 25+ years of steering the same way I simply cannot use ASDW for steering and trigger powers with my mouse... At. All.

 

I love everything about the Balance tree... except that Force in the Balance is a mouse-based AoE power like Force Quake (which is also a pain in the butt for me to use as anything but an opener) whereas Telekinetic Wave is NOT. Having to choose between zero cool down Telekinetic Throw and a viable AoE attack given my limitations (yes, I've tried to change... have you ever tried to break 25 years of muscle memory?) I'd probably just stop playing about half my current characters because they'd be practically unplayable.

 

As of two or three major patches ago, you can now simply double tap your bind to use the AoE on your target.

 

I HAVE to use keys that are lined up with each other to steer... that means either the directional keys, DEL/HOME/END/PGDN or the numpad. Any time I have to use a mouse to do something (like click on a door) I have to let go of steering, grab the mouse and click, then go back to steering. I make up for it with very tight keybinds based around keeping my mobile powers on the number keys (which I can use all along the line since I'm not using my left hand to steer) and immobile casts on the block of keys just above the directional arrows and the numpad (all of which I've gotten very good at shifting between).

 

Use your mouse to turn and move forward. Never move backward... and use only two movement key to strafe. Then keybind everything around them. You don,t even need the strafing key if you aren't PvP'ing. In fp and raid you can deal with everything without ever strafing. It takes some time to get used to it, but you'll be much more responsive with an instant turning instead of the very very very slooow keyboard turning.

Right buttons to turn your toon. Left to turn the camera. Both to move forward.

 

That's why I'm quite nervous about the Discipline System and that it could very well make a bunch of my characters non-viable because I can't use the keyboard and mouse the way they seem to expect everyone to.

 

If you ever are in a situation were you can't simply double tap since you want to hit two target that are rather far apart, you can just stop moving and use your mouse for that since your hand will be on it anyway.

 

PS. If you have a gaming mouse, keybind for strafing, targeting, DCD, main rotation or whatever you feel like can be moved to your mouse.

[Verain]

I don't play the ground game enough to have a proper opinion, but for what it is worth, I'm with the OP on this. I did like the few hybrid builds I could run in this game, and I LOVE talent trees over derp-options- "derptions".

 

Now, it's possible that the new talent trees will be better, assuming you are ok with losing hybrids. But I think it very unlikely.

 

 

In WoW, which I played very seriously for years (in fact up to this current tier from vanilla), I always loved hybrid builds because they let me really tune myself for certain pve encounters, and they allowed for AMAZING pvp tricks. My favorite story was a gladiator death knight at the dawn of Lich King, who was slaughtering my guildies. Death Knights were too strong then, and at the time they had a move that buffed their armor for a bit, reducing each damage by a flat number (the flat number scaled with their attack power or armor or something else that just means raw item level). As a rogue, my daggers could do nothing while this cooldown was up, and it was pretty obvious what this guy would do to me while the CD was burning.

 

But it had no effect on magic damage.

 

So I made a shiv build- at the time, shiv would automatically apply your offhand damage. I went deep enough in combat (the "swashbuckling" tree that offers cleaves and decent mid-term burst) to get the amazing Adrenaline Rush, then I put points into Assassination (a tree with some short term burst and mostly notable for good poison damage, which ignores armor) to buff all my poisons. Then I opened on this guy with deadly mainhand and instant offhand, and jammed shiv a bunch. Not recognizing the different animation and sound effects (he was expecting a rogue to be shadowstep or mutilate/prep), he popped all his anti-physical stuff, and of course I nailed shiv after shiv into him, powered by adrenaline rush. This was vastly LESS damage than any other build I could make- shiv is not very powerful- but all of his defenses did nothing. Eventully, he pressed his anti-magic cooldown, which I simply CCed him and regenerated my energy, then reopened and continued the pain, and beat him. He was furious! I was a hacker, obviously. Gonna be reported, etc.

 

 

Anyway, I couldn't take this build to a raid or to an arena. But by having those buttons, I could control my fate, and my specialiity. Forward design would be to make all those different possibilities good and meaningful and not just design for a couple things (and then really ignore all but one).

 

 

By giving up the talent trees, WoW surrendered and basically said "We can't design this cool mechanic, so we are deleting it, you don't get it any more." SWTOR is saying the same thing, but whether they have the same depth of play that WoW did is totally unknown to me.

 

 

 

I will say this: Many times in WoW you had a spec whose damage was of a superior form in pvp (ignores armor, has a greater range, can't be interrupted, is very bursty) combined with some utility tricks that aren't so great, versus a spec whose damage was of an inferior form in pvp (mitigated by player cooldowns easily, long setup, predictable and controllable damage cycles) combine with GREAT utility. By divorcing the two, the game was then balanced around the good damage plus the great utility- meaning that you went from 2-5 interesting choices to ONE.

 

 

SWTOR's utility powers being divorced will probably do the same thing. But whatever.

[AstralFire]

I played multiple hybrid specs and enjoyed finding the rare ones that worked. All the same, I am quite happy to surrender them.

 

You can have endgame balance, you can have meaningful character choices at low level, and you can have high diversity of builds. But you can only have any two of those at a time.

 

The current system does a decent job of the first and the last, but a horrible job of the middle. A level 10 vanguard feels nothing like a level 40 to 55 Vanguard, but does feel a lot like a level 10 Commando, because none of the low level choices matter much.

 

You go approx. half the game before you start really feeling the effects of the choices made at level 1 and 10. And frankly, a lot of trees just feel really awkward until those levels, especially shared tree specs.

[Gleneagle]

Well, then I really don't care what happens to you. You don't add to this games community, you can't think about what is best for the game long term and you seem stuck in your socially removed bubble, afraid to experience change. So....quit or stay....your presence in this game is unnoticed and unneeded by anyone but Bioware.

Heh. Nothing like self-centered. The arbiter of values, a virtual god among mortals in the magnifying glass of his own imagined domain, fountain of enlightened wisdom has deigned to assign the hierarchy of his lessers... the foremost argument against required grouping has spoken to us all and we have no recourse but to obey. Edited October 10, 2014 by Gleneagle

[Zoom_VI]

Heh. Nothing like self-centered. The arbiter of values, a virtual god among mortals in the magnifying glass of his own imagined domain, fountain of enlightened wisdom has deigned to assign the hierarchy of his lessers... the foremost argument against required grouping has spoken.

 

Did you not read what that quote was responding to? TUX has a point, the other guy needs to stop looking only for his own interests.

[Gleneagle]

Did you not read what that quote was responding to? TUX has a point, the other guy needs to stop looking only for his own interests.

Did you read what he said? TUX may have had a point, and maybe he speaks for you, but he also doesn't decide anything for me especially values. Excluding people is not the way toward community but away from it. Intolerance is not constructive. We may not like someone, but it takes all kinds to make a world. Every human being is valued. Edited October 10, 2014 by Gleneagle
make a point about dialexis in conversations

[Zoom_VI]

Did you read what he said? TUX may have had a point, and maybe he speaks for you, but he also doesn't decide anything for me especially values. Excluding people is not the way toward community but away from it. Intolerance is not constructive. We may not like someone, but it takes all kinds to make a world. Every human being is valued.

 

If you are going to whine about intolerance and values, you should whine at Max_killjoy for his complete disregard for how the new system benefits the game simply because he doesn't care about those parts of the game.

[Gleneagle]

If you are going to whine about intolerance and values, you should whine at Max_killjoy for his complete disregard for how the new system benefits the game simply because he doesn't care about those parts of the game.

It isn't a whine, and your saying it is whining betrays your lack of vision.

 

If you have two sides to an argument, and those sides to the argument are in the process of refining one another, then if the dialog and mutual refinement continues they may find synthesis, a new idea born of conflicting understandings unified in an evolutionary, and suddenly shared realization. This is also something we are seeing in politics, by the way. But when one side aborts the process and dismisses the other, especially by belittling or disrespecting the other, then all we end with is dysfunction. You have a thesis. He has the antithesis. By forcing ourselves to continue the conversation we can make progress and ultimate unity until the next antithesis comes along.

 

Willfully excluding disagreement is a sure recipe for community failure and should be discouraged.

Edited October 10, 2014 by Gleneagle
mispelling

[SiegePro]

As of two or three major patches ago, you can now simply double tap your bind to use the AoE on your target.

Its messy and prone to weirdness if you don't doubletap just so. At least that's been my experience with Forcequake. Still... its at least something that doesn't require me to overwrite 25 years of muscle memory.

 

Use your mouse to turn and move forward. Never move backward... and use only two movement key to strafe. Then keybind everything around them. You don,t even need the strafing key if you aren't PvP'ing. In fp and raid you can deal with everything without ever strafing. It takes some time to get used to it, but you'll be much more responsive with an instant turning instead of the very very very slooow keyboard turning.

Right buttons to turn your toon. Left to turn the camera. Both to move forward.

I tried it and it makes a hash of me being able to activate abilities because I can't do it by feel/muscle memory anymore and I've been using the exact same layout (where I put attacks, where I put heals, where I put movement powers) in every single game I've played for the last 25 years (target nearest is always INSERT and my best channeled/charged attack is always DELETE, the second best on END and third on HOME... all of which can be tapped with my index finger while still steering using the directional keypad).

 

I can kinda make mouse driving work in a FPS where you don't have many options beyond weapon selection and hitting space to jump that require your left hand. Right-click is move forward and left click is fire your current weapon. But I've never been able to do that in an MMO because inevitably you need at least one button on the mouse for activating clickies and you have to use the other for a dozen or more different powers.

 

Also, having now seen the video, my worst fears are realized and the powers I actually take regularly to facilitate my playstyle with a sage (casual solo or with RL friends with no raids beyond basic flashpoints) have been dropped into separate trees. So I can either have my 0 cooldown telekinetic throw (which is my mainstay attack... my friends have called me the scouring pad) and a bunch of higher tier powers I will NEVER use (I hate the top tier power of just about every tree every class I've ever played) or the AoE and other powers that actually work for me and probably still a top tier power I'll never use. Same for my Gunslinger who also hybrids (shock charge and quickshot are fun).

 

It even screws over the commando I've been leveling where after getting grav rounds/curtain of fire running I've started taking healing talents to function as a backup/off-healer when I team up with my friends (which is usually more than enough for the content we run... regular flashpoints and heroic 4's). Once again I have to choose to make one thing that's already good enough 'better' in ways I'll never use and pay for that by dumping the other part of my build that's also good enough. That SUCKS.

 

It's like Tanno Vic all over again. "He's the best. You have to use him even though he's an obnoxious *******."

How about instead I just go with the second best? I'm sure they'll be good enough to do their part of the mission and the actual following of orders would certainly more than make up for it.

[Max_Killjoy]

1) I play little endgame -- it's usually not worth all the extra trouble -- and no PvP. I don't care about them in the sense that they mean nothing to how I've built my characters. People keep telling me that some of my builds aren't suited for high-end group play, and I keep telling them that high-end group play means nothing to me in that context.

 

It sucks that some players go into that content with poor builds and unsuited gear and so on, but nothing about these changes is going to make those players into good players who are considerate of others in how they approach the game.

 

2) It was clear before I posted anything on this topic that certain other posters have absolutely no regard for anyone who isn't into high-end group play, and consider us beneath contempt, a drag on "their" game.

[ChroniKill]

I was skeptical at first, but the twitch stream was good.

 

Given that it will enable much better class balance I'm all for limiting the options available.

 

To the person having issues with aiming with a mouse, have you ever tried a left handed mouse? Muscle memory is a pain, but if you try something completely new (such as a left handed mouse) where you have no previous MM it might help. Something like a Naga would let you use abilities and aim more easily.

[Orizuru]

I was skeptical at first, but the twitch stream was good.

 

Given that it will enable much better class balance I'm all for limiting the options available.

 

To the person having issues with aiming with a mouse, have you ever tried a left handed mouse? Muscle memory is a pain, but if you try something completely new (such as a left handed mouse) where you have no previous MM it might help. Something like a Naga would let you use abilities and aim more easily.

 

For what its worth, the Naga is really only a good mouse for the extra buttons. The laser sensor on the Naga is one of the worst ones Razer has in all of the products. If someone is having problems with jitter or precise movements with the mouse, the Naga will probably only exacerbate their issues. They would probably do much better with a gaming mouse with a better quality sensor set to a low to medium cpi. The new Logitech Proteus is one of the best sensors on the market right now.

 

I'm probably going to catch flak from the Razer fans for saying that, so I would like to state that I'm not saying any of the Razer mice have bad sensors. I'm just saying there are better sensors in other mice for people who don't have a steady hand. The Razer Deathadder is probably one of the best gaming mice every created and will last forever, while none of the Logitech mice I've had lasted half as long. But when you have problems with precise movements due to any kind of physical disability or injury, the Razer products aren't always the best choices.

[OrionSol]

I played multiple hybrid specs and enjoyed finding the rare ones that worked. All the same, I am quite happy to surrender them.

 

You can have endgame balance, you can have meaningful character choices at low level, and you can have high diversity of builds. But you can only have any two of those at a time.

 

The current system does a decent job of the first and the last, but a horrible job of the middle. A level 10 vanguard feels nothing like a level 40 to 55 Vanguard, but does feel a lot like a level 10 Commando, because none of the low level choices matter much.

 

You go approx. half the game before you start really feeling the effects of the choices made at level 1 and 10. And frankly, a lot of trees just feel really awkward until those levels, especially shared tree specs.

 

I think this is the problem... there will NEVER be "balance". In the new system it will always have one template that is OP, regardless of what the devs say.

 

What is really happening here is they are destroying the ability to be 50/50 healer dps or tank dps.

 

All these people that think this will "fix the game": and "balance" end game are smokin something funny or have not been around MMOs long enough to know that is never possible,

[azudelphi]

I think this is the problem... there will NEVER be "balance". In the new system it will always have one template that is OP, regardless of what the devs say.

 

What is really happening here is they are destroying the ability to be 50/50 healer dps or tank dps.

 

All these people that think this will "fix the game": and "balance" end game are smokin something funny or have not been around MMOs long enough to know that is never possible,

 

55 Skill Points means there are 55 factorial permutations... 1.27*10^73 combinations per advanced class.

 

Now there are 3 permutations per advanced class.

 

Objectively, more testing can be done on a per spec basis to provide for output balancing. Additionally separating the shared specs allows individual tuning. It doesn't need to be perfect balance, but it will be an improvement and it is worth getting rid of overperforming and underperforming specs to do as much.

Edited October 10, 2014 by azudelphi

[JouerTue]

3. I prefer being unpredictable in combat. - In pvp, everyone expects certain abilities or actions from certain classes. Hybrids gave me the ability to be unpredictable. I traded some effectiveness for some surprise, and it was always worth it to me.

 

 

 

 

 

in pvp this means you do bad heals and bad dps, or bump damage up without killing anyone.

the only hybrid i can understand is shadow/sin tanking brontes, which i doubt is needed now without the nim buff.

i'm glad game is not designed(completely) around the solo casual, nobody cares if you want to be unique killing grey trash on aldeeran.

[Deewe]

55 Skill Points means there are 55 factorial permutations... 1.27*10^73 combinations per advanced class.

 

Now there are 3 permutations per advanced class.

 

Objectively, more testing can be done on a per spec basis to provide for output balancing. Additionally separating the shared specs allows individual tuning. It doesn't need to be perfect balance, but it will be an improvement and it is worth getting rid of overperforming and underperforming specs to do as much.

But not all skills have the same weight.

Then you have to unlock higher levels.

 

So the combinations and especially the worthy ones aren't that many.

 

Also the devs don't care about players taking hybrids that's aren't efficient because it's their choice.

So out of all the hybrid combinations they only have to take into account the ones that are either OP or breaking game design.

 

I.e.: still a job to do but not sure it's that less effort to revamp the system than balance adding new levels, but maybe for a very long term view.

 

Although if the goal was to make choosing skills more straightforward for the casual gamer, then it will work.

Still they could have gone Rift way that propose players pre-set builds.

 

Not only that would have done the trick but it would also have been way cheaper and finally, for more hardcore gamer, it would also have left room for advanced builds and rotations.

Edited October 10, 2014 by Deewe

[azudelphi]

1) I play little endgame -- it's usually not worth all the extra trouble -- and no PvP. I don't care about them in the sense that they mean nothing to how I've built my characters. People keep telling me that some of my builds aren't suited for high-end group play, and I keep telling them that high-end group play means nothing to me in that context.

 

It sucks that some players go into that content with poor builds and unsuited gear and so on, but nothing about these changes is going to make those players into good players who are considerate of others in how they approach the game.

 

2) It was clear before I posted anything on this topic that certain other posters have absolutely no regard for anyone who isn't into high-end group play, and consider us beneath contempt, a drag on "their" game.

 

It's not that what you do is beneath contempt or a drag. It's that the system has to be centered on providing as much balance as is possible for group play first, solo-play second. Whatever it is you do at end game that isn't group play (what is it btw?) is less critical to be balanced than Raids, Flashpoints, or Warzones.

[azudelphi]

But not all skills have the same weight.

Then you have to unlock higher levels.

 

So the combinations and especially the worthy ones aren't that many.

 

Also the devs don't care about players taking hybrids that's aren't efficient because it's their choice.

So out of all the hybrid combinations they only have to take into account the ones that are either OP or breaking game design.

 

I.e.: still a job to do but not sure it's that less effort to revamp the system than balance adding new levels, but maybe for a very long term view.

 

Although if the goal was to make choosing skills more straightforward for the casual gamer, then it will work.

Still they could have gone Rift way that propose players pre-set builds.

 

Not only that would have done the trick but it would also have been way cheaper and finally, for more hardcore gamer, it would also have left room for advanced builds and rotations.

 

Well, it may be break-even in terms of the effort for adding 5 new levels, but as you said provide dividends in terms of the effort required moving forward.

[Quraswren]

It's not that what you do is beneath contempt or a drag. It's that the system has to be centered on providing as much balance as is possible for group play first, solo-play second. Whatever it is you do at end game that isn't group play (what is it btw?) is less critical to be balanced than Raids, Flashpoints, or Warzones.

 

Thats pretty dead on. ^

 

I'm not sold on the system yet but I see why it was done - Balance; I'm ok with that. I love me some hybrid builds but removing isn't something I'm worried about because at the end of the day, I still get to heal, DPS or tank as whatever class I play.

Edited October 10, 2014 by Quraswren

[TUXs]

Mostly because it makes me a panda.

 

Well, yeah...that I understand.