Anyone else totally bummed at the complete removal of Hybrids?

[Gleneagle]

Like anything being done for a diverse player base there will be mixed results. The ultimate outcome must weigh both, and the change will be good if the benefits outweigh the liabilities.

 

Who would deny that limiting the diversity of builds is a delta, a negative result? Not me. But at the same time what player would argue that increased diversity in play environments, new content, and new class/story lines is bad? Not me.

 

I have strong 'builder' tendencies as well. I like few things more than experimenting with my builds if they ever manage to improve my performance. But I would not choose that over the creation of new works of art. I would not impede the crafting of a good story. I would not insist that a painter should not clarify his palette rather than allow me to make my colors muddy.

 

If the end product turns out better overall it will have been worth it and if not, then not. But just as I don't reorganize my mechanic's toolbox when he is working on my car, so too will I refrain from criticizing the developer before I have had a chance at their handiwork.

[Elminster_cs]

I LOVE being unique

 

Let me see... 27 utility... 7 point to spend... 3 different spec... I will not make the exact count... but I can see more than 100+ possibility to be unique.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Elminster_cs

[fire-breath]

Personally I only think its ashame that tanking hybrids are gone. I never could care that much for DPS hybrids.

 

Tanking wise its very nice to be able to find a nice balance between mitigation and DPS output. My shadowtank for example is experimenting a bit with going up infiltration as high as possible for the extra DPS on adds in brontes NiM phase 2b. This level of optimising what a group need is what I will miss very much.

 

Having said that ..... bioware is always busy getting rid of hybrids with not always the same success. This time they seem to have found enough nails to nail the proverbial hybridcoffin.

 

In the long run its better to not have hybrids since this means more development time for other stuff.

[Lotharofxev]

Let me see... 27 utility... 7 point to spend... 3 different spec... I will not make the exact count... but I can see more than 100+ possibility to be unique.

 

Cue The Incredibles:

 

[Kathitor]

Hybrid builds have no place in an end game, group focused MMO with a hard trinity. Support roles are essentially what hybrids are when they aren't 'breaking the system' and those are present in some MMOs (quite effectively) but not this one.

 

If you were a hybrid before you either:

a) Were gimping yourself

b) Were gimping your group or

c) Were overpowered

 

All of those result in less fun for the rest of the people around you. Now everyone is guaranteed to fit their role with the ability to still customize their utility and they can balance encounters going forward with the expectation of what everyone will bring. It's a win, win, win.

 

This isn't 2004.

[Heal-To-Full]

The new discipline system makes me a sad panda.

[TUXs]

The new discipline system makes me a sad panda.

Why?

 

Kathitor was exactly right when he said (just above your post):

If you were a hybrid before you either:

a) Were gimping yourself

b) Were gimping your group or

c) Were overpowered

This is exactly why it needed to be changed...so which one were you that you're unhappy about this change? This is better for us all going forward.

[kongol]

Why?

 

Kathitor was exactly right when he said (just above your post):

 

This is exactly why it needed to be changed...so which one were you that you're unhappy about this change? This is better for us all going forward.

 

thats your opinion.. in mine its better for you so you dont give a crap about anyone else..

[azudelphi]

thats your opinion.. in mine its better for you so you dont give a crap about anyone else..

 

So which OP spec in PVP are you sad to be losing?

[TUXs]

thats your opinion.. in mine its better for you so you dont give a crap about anyone else..

I love it lol! Because I'm not in favor of you keeping your stupid OP/UP hybrid, you call me selfish lol. YOU are the selfish one son...you only care about your stupid hybrid build.

[OrionSol]

The main issue for me is I can't stand the rock/paper/scissor dps/heal/tank cookie cutter game play.

 

Which is why always did hybrid dps/heal or tank/dps etc.

[Malastare]

The main issue for me is I can't stand the rock/paper/scissor dps/heal/tank cookie cutter game play.

 

DPS/Heal/Tank is absolutely not a rock/paper/scissors design. You're either mis-using the term or you don't understand how one of those two things works.

 

Which is why always did hybrid dps/heal or tank/dps etc.

 

That doesn't actually make any sense. I think you're trying to say that you picked hybrids because you disliked the perceived lack of variety. In truth, your "extra variety" wasn't terribly different and you didn't have that many more options. You're complaining that having just three options was cookie cutter so instead you adopted a play style that was vastly superior.... because it gave you six options... and you only actually played two or three of them. Viva la Revolucion!

[Heat-Wave]

So which OP spec in PVP are you sad to be losing?

 

^ This, for the win...

 

The only people I see upset about this change are:

 

1. People who just heard about it and haven't had a chance to actually understand it (they are usually fine once they do).

 

2. People who loved a overpowered hybrid spec in PvP that most people didn't know.

[Kathitor]

The main issue for me is I can't stand the rock/paper/scissor dps/heal/tank cookie cutter game play.

 

Which is why always did hybrid dps/heal or tank/dps etc.

While I believe you have a bit of a misconception of these terms here, I understand what you are saying. However, your problem is really with the group-based, trinity gameplay model. And that's totally fine! But what they had before didn't mesh with the overall combat design. Now it is being brought in line with that design.

 

Like I said before, unless you are playing games that specifically account for Support roles (read: hybrid) or games without defined roles, you aren't going to find great design that you seem to want. The problem is that the decade old design which includes talent trees, arbitrary stat boosts, and hybrid capabilities was providing arbitrary choice at the expense of better design.

 

Sure you could take abilities x,y,z as this tree, but it was probably terrible is not a compelling decision for a player. It's only a bad decision. It's a fallacy to think that picking a bad spec just because you thought it was fun is ok. It's not ok, because the game isn't providing you meaningful choices that keep you performing your role adequately which translates to the same level of fun.

 

Essentially that's the goal with providing larger customization of secondary abilities. They want you to have the same tools to fulfill your role in a general sense, but letting you determine what flavor you can provide. You can't really complain about picking a role and them giving you tools for that role....that's the intention of roles in the first place.

 

I could go on about this, but people are basically looking at this in an incredibly incomplete and inadequate way. This is a good design change even if they totally mess up on the utilities...which it doesn't seem like they are right now.

[Halinalle]

1. People who just heard about it and haven't had a chance to actually understand it (they are usually fine once they do).

 

When I read about it through link on front page it looked like "meh".

But after watching recorded stream on Twitch it looks a lot better. At least you don't have to break your mouse while you respec (clicky-clicky-clicky-clicky-clicky).

 

There's still one thing I don't like:

Overloadheal in lowest tier of utility talents.

It's probably nothing... Everyone knows what I mean.

 

The main issue for me is I can't stand the rock/paper/scissor dps/heal/tank cookie cutter game play.

 

Which is why always did hybrid dps/heal or tank/dps etc.

 

Problem with these "so advanced specs" is that you try to be jack of all trades.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Halinalle

[SamTheHexagon]

Let me see... 27 utility... 7 point to spend... 3 different spec... I will not make the exact count... but I can see more than 100+ possibility to be unique.

 

Okay, so I did some sums for you; there are considerably more than that. Just out of the 3/2/2 builds, there at 15,435 possibilities. If you count all LEGAL builds -- 4/1/2, 6/0/1, etc. -- then there's 38,760.

Edited October 9, 2014 by SamTheHexagon

[OrionSol]

^ This, for the win...

 

The only people I see upset about this change are:

 

1. People who just heard about it and haven't had a chance to actually understand it (they are usually fine once they do).

 

2. People who loved a overpowered hybrid spec in PvP that most people didn't know.

 

Sure, I like Hybrid in PVP because it gives me a unique role to play.

 

But the real reason is I love being jack of all trades, master of none. I like that play methodology.

 

That style of gaming doesn't jive with either the trolls on these forums, or the developers though it seems.

[ScarletBlaze]

Doesn't bother me.

 

I put my skills mostly in one tree as when I play in groups I want to help them.

[JediJuliusDavin]

Sure, I like Hybrid in PVP because it gives me a unique role to play.

 

But the real reason is I love being jack of all trades, master of none. I like that play methodology.

 

That style of gaming doesn't jive with either the trolls on these forums, or the developers though it seems.

 

I wouldn't classify myself as a troll and I am certainly not a developer, but I use only full tree specs.

[Max_Killjoy]

I have, from the beginning of the game, played nothing but Hybrids for a number of reasons.

 

1. I HATE cookie cutter templates. Hate them. Full tree spec anything is totally boring to me. Requires little to no strategy, tactics, or real thinking to play.

 

2. I HATE being "like everyone else". For me, I LOVE being unique. Hardly anyone played dps/heal hybrid, or tank/dps hybrid the first year of the game. I have done that with ALL my characters except the few that only have dps specs only, ie Sentinel.

 

3. I prefer being unpredictable in combat. - In pvp, everyone expects certain abilities or actions from certain classes. Hybrids gave me the ability to be unpredictable. I traded some effectiveness for some surprise, and it was always worth it to me.

 

 

The new Discipline system completely and utterly destroys Hybrids. In my opinion shoves everyone into a rock/paper/scissor role and it sucks. Sucks big time. Plus, they are now totally destroying the 4th pillar of play, CC. Now there really is no place for strategic battle controllers. It is tank, heal or dps, and pretty much... only DPS in pvp. (after all, the expertise system CLEARLY favors dps classes 3 to 1.)

 

Granted, this is just from my point of view. I understand the logic behind the dev reasoning. I understand the ************ and moaning from the min/maxer raid and pvp crowd. It just sucks for someone like me, who has spent hours testing and designing templates that were completely unique.

 

In my opinion it is no longer about skill, tactics, strategy or creative creation.

 

Now it is all about gear stats. Everyone is going to have the same BS cookie cutter FOTM BS template, and there is going to be ZERO diversity. There are going to be "must have skills" like moving while casting etc. This is going to DESTROY one of the huge aspects I loved about this game. DIVERSITY

 

This move, in my opinion, is a complete dumbing down, simplification of the talents. It is going to be boring and lack creativity.

 

Add to this that PVP is already stupidly over powered in favor of DPS classes, and that some raiders wont take certain classes on end game content, and you are in effect, thus making an annoying problem become a massive game breaking problem.

 

Sorry, but I watched and re-watched the twitch feed today, and I have to say. I am completely disappointed with this system. Personally for me, it may end up being the proverbial straw.

 

Two thumbs down.

 

Let me put it this way -- if I had heard about hybrids before ordering the new expansion, I would not have ordered the new expansion.

 

ALL of my characters are hybrids, and one of the reasons I gave up on WoW was the complete dumbing-down of the skill trees in that game.

 

I don't give a tinker's damn about PvP or what's needed to make a "good" PvP build. I have no interest in playing cookie-cutter spoon-fed FotM builds. I care so little for FotM and min-maxing that each time a patch comes up, I take a screenshot the day before in case one or more classes get a "helpful reset", and use it to restore the same build I had before the patch as closely as possible.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Max_Killjoy

[TUXs]

I don't give a tinker's damn about PvP or what's needed to make a "good" PvP build. I have in interest in playing cookie-cutter spoon-fed FotM builds.

The removal of hybrids was more about PvE than it was PvP. You weren't fulfilling any role you pretended to be in PvE by running your hybrids. In PvP, nobody gave a ****, the losers would complain anyway. In PvE, you lied to your team about the role you picked.

[Max_Killjoy]

None, I don't PvP, and rarely group. I don't care about "fulfilling a role". I don't "pretend" at anything. I spend 95% or more of the time I'm in SWTOR solo.

 

And the irony is, these sorts of changes come from companies listening to PvP whiners complaining about other people's characters.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Max_Killjoy

[JimG]

The new Discipline system completely and utterly destroys Hybrids. In my opinion shoves everyone into a rock/paper/scissor role and it sucks.

................

Granted, this is just from my point of view. I understand the logic behind the dev reasoning. I understand the ************ and moaning from the min/maxer raid and pvp crowd. It just sucks for someone like me, who has spent hours testing and designing templates that were completely unique.

...............................

This move, in my opinion, is a complete dumbing down, simplification of the talents. It is going to be boring and lack creativity.

.......................

Sorry, but I watched and re-watched the twitch feed today, and I have to say. I am completely disappointed with this system. Personally for me, it may end up being the proverbial straw.

You watched the Twitch feed twice? Are you sure? Because it doesn't sound like you understand what's going on here. You opine that the Disciplines system will destroy hybrids. The dev came right out and said in the livestream that the entire purpose of the new system was to get rid of hybrids. So that's not even a question at this point.....their intention was to get rid of hybrids. You claim to understand the logic behind the move and that it was because of moaning from the player base. The dev stated very clearly in the livestream that they are getting rid of hybrids because they can't test every possible hybrid build with every class change and the hybrids make their class updates/changes too difficult. This change isn't being made because of player moaning....it's being made because the devs are trying to simply their development cost and time in terms of updates to the game and class balance. Again, it has nothing to do with being creative or encourage uniqueness or simplifying the game for players....it's all about simplifying the development and testing process for the devs.

[Max_Killjoy]

Hybrids have never existed. Anyone who played a real hybrid was playing a gimped class.

 

I play all hybrids, and don't have any issues with being "gimped".

 

Thanks for playing, through.

[Max_Killjoy]

You watched the Twitch feed twice? Are you sure? Because it doesn't sound like you understand what's going on here. You opine that the Disciplines system will destroy hybrids. The dev came right out and said in the livestream that the entire purpose of the new system was to get rid of hybrids. So that's not even a question at this point.....their intention was to get rid of hybrids. You claim to understand the logic behind the move and that it was because of moaning from the player base. The dev stated very clearly in the livestream that they are getting rid of hybrids because they can't test every possible hybrid build with every class change and the hybrids make their class updates/changes too difficult. This change isn't being made because of player moaning....it's being made because the devs are trying to simply their development cost and time in terms of updates to the game and class balance. Again, it has nothing to do with being creative or encourage uniqueness or simplifying the game for players....it's all about simplifying the development and testing process for the devs.

 

So they pretty much WANT to alienate anyone who isn't into being spoonfed and pigeon holed? And their excuse amounts to it allows them to be lazy and save money?

 

You're not doing a good job of defending this change, if that's your intent.